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Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty

The jury verdict is in. Moussauoui has been found eligible for the death penalty. The jury found his lies to the FBI agents were directly responsible for at least one death in the 9/11 attacks. The jury was unanimous in its findings.

Moussaoui's response:

"You'll never get my blood, God curse you all."

The jury will now decide whether he lives or dies. They will hear victim impact testimony from the survivors of those who died.

The defense has filed a motion regarding mitigation evidence, but it's under seal. However, this much is known:

Court-appointed defense lawyers, whom Moussaoui has tried to reject, will summon experts to suggest he is schizophrenic after an impoverished childhood during which he faced racism in France over his Moroccan ancestry.

Kudos to the defense team who did an outstanding job defending an impossibly difficult client in a case in which emotions ran higher than any since the Oklahoma City Bombing trial of Timothy McVeigh and in a jurisdiction in which the community was so highly invested in the the outcome.

Moussaoui did not participate in 9/11, he didn't even know the date it would occur or the intended targets, yet he is likely to be killed. Moussauoui was his own worst enemy.

Update: Great commentary by Dahlia Lithwick over at Slate:

Yet because of Moussaoui's false testimony, the government's nutty conspiracy theory, and the nation's need for closure, Moussaoui's name will be in the history books and the law books for all time; inextricably linked with 9/11, just as it has always been in his dreams. And perhaps we will all sleep better for believing that if Moussaoui had come forward and told what little he knew, we could have stopped those terrible attacks, just as it happens in our own dreams. How lucky for Moussaoui that his fantasies and ours are such a perfect match.

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  • Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#1)
    by caramel on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:12:46 PM EST
    This is very sad for American justice, it's not bringing us anywhere closer to the truth. What a shameful system that allows justice to become the tool of political strategies...

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:17:36 PM EST
    Sigh... Well done. Another martyr for the cause created. Al Queda needs the recruiting boost from bushco?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:18:43 PM EST
    I'm amazed that the jury seemed to completely discount the fact that other 9/11 plotters, including the alleged mastermind of the atttacks, said Moussaoui was not involved in the plot. And as the previous commenter said, it's incredible that he could be found to be materially responsible for the attacks by witholding information that likely wouldn't have helped investigators anyway, since he didn't know when the attacks were to occur. By this standard, we should execute everyone in Guantanamo Bay, since we are holding them on the basis of alleging that surely they must know something about some terror plot, somewhere, at some time, against the United States...

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:20:07 PM EST
    BTW Jeralyn, could you explain why only Moussaoui is being charged, but not Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? Cheers.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:24:39 PM EST
    My view: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is in an overseas secret prison where he can be interrogated by officials from the host country as well as by the CIA and FBI, without be subjected to our rules against torture (the ones we do have.) When they are done extracting information from him, they will most likely ship him to guantanamo for a military tribunal proceeding where they will seek the death penalty. Same for Ramzi bin al shibh and others similarly being held. Again, this is my view.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:14:02 PM EST
    The P*rn World is hanging there flags at half mast today, It's like they have lost one of there own even if he did look like one of there own. Why this man choose politics instead of being a stunt double for Ron Jeremy that's one of life's mysteries I guess.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:11:33 PM EST
    Same for Ramzi bin al shibh and others similarly being held.
    Again, this is my view.
    I don't know, Jeralyn. Do you really think there's going to be enough of them left to ship to Gitmo, let alone try? If these guys are indeed in Black Sites, according to ex-CIA Agent Robert Baer(the guy G Clooney's character was based on in Syriana), they'll torture, interrogate, torture, kill and incinerate the bodies. That's their preferred method. They won't leave a trace.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 06:37:59 PM EST
    Et al - I understand that the default position here is anti-death penalty. In fact, in normal CJ trial situations, I am basically against it if there is a LWOP solution, and if there is any hint of doubt, etc. But to say that we shouldn't execute him because it will create martyrs is absolutely wrong. First, to not do something because of what the terrorists might do assumes that you can negotiate with the terrorists. You can not. By demonstrating, time and again, their willingness to commit suicide, while killing others, any hint of rationally is destroyed. You can not bargain with irrational people. The terrorists also retain control over the people in their respective countries through terror. Any Moslem who might think of opposing them in any form must ask themselves this question. If I side with the West, does the West have the will power to protect me by killing the terrorists? At present the message we are sending is, no. The moderate Moslems see it in the continual attacks on Bush, the anti-war demonstrations, the NSA flap, etc. and etc. Simply put, capital punishment exists in their world, and with our demonstrated response of running, Vietnam, etc., the moderate Moslems will see our failure to use it as a failure of will, just as they saw our abandoning our own free speech principles over the cartoons as surrendering to the radical Imams. All executions are political. Moussoui's will be no different, and will serve a worthy cause. Demonstrating that we will destroy people who attack us in any form. And reminding those who might be our friends that we dispense death in their behalf.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 06:49:47 PM EST
    Gee, another the only way to fight idiotic fire is with idiotic fire post from Jim. Wow, there's a shock.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 06:56:41 PM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 April 3, 2006 07:49 PM Gee, another the only way to fight idiotic fire is with idiotic fire post from Jim. Wow, there's a shock.
    Agree or disagree, Jimaka's post was rational and coherent. Smartcharlie, yours was just a juvenile quip

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#11)
    by aw on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 07:37:37 PM EST
    I thought Charlie nailed it, myself.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 07:39:41 PM EST
    Charlie, stop the insults, please.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#13)
    by janinsanfran on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 09:01:31 PM EST
    So we are going to execute a barking lunatic based on a silly legal theory and "evidence" (unvalidated in any meaningful way) that almost certainly was obtained by torture. And we claim civilization?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#14)
    by phat on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 09:53:47 PM EST
    One more useless execution. As I've said before. This will not stop any future terrorist attack, it will not calm things down in Afghanistan or Iraq. It won't help all of the victims' families. It'll just feed blood lust. It'll inspire more vengefulness. What a waste. My hat's off to the defense team. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to defend someone like this, in our current political climate. I wonder if they will challenge lethal injection? I hope they do. phat

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 10:52:51 PM EST
    Charlie:
    Gee, another the only way to fight idiotic fire is with idiotic fire post from Jim. Wow, there's a shock.
    aw: I thought Charlie nailed it, myself. I agree, aw. TalkLeft: Charlie, stop the insults, please. I see no personal insult in Charlie's post, Jeralyn, other than perhaps toward Moussaoui. He certainly did not insult Jim. He expressed sarcasm by saying "Wow, there's a shock" in response to a post by Jim which he legitimately interpreted as "the only way to fight idiotic fire is with idiotic fire", which I took to mean that he was satirizing Moussaoui's stated desire to attack the U.S. as "idiocy" and that he was also characterizing Jim's expressed preferred response to Moussaoui as being on the same level as Moussaoui's statements. There was no insult towards Jim. Charlie was addressing the content of Jim's post.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#16)
    by HK on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 01:47:26 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ wrote
    Demonstrating that we will destroy people who attack us in any form.
    This hardly adresses the root of the problem. When we get to the retaliation stage, the damage has already been done.
    And reminding those who might be our friends that we dispense death in their behalf.
    I would never wish my friends to dispense death on my behalf. Those who would do so are not friends because they are going against my wishes. And those who are of the 'what if it was your brother/mother/child who had been killed' brigade forget that there are those whose brother/mother/child has been killed who don't want this. The justification that the state is acting on behalf of the victims is a poor one. Apart from the fact that not all victims feel the same, justice should be based on something a little substantial than the emotions of those who are grieving.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 05:24:40 AM EST
    HK:
    I would never wish my friends to dispense death on my behalf.
    I'm with you on that, HK. For people who dispense death claiming to do it on my behalf I have one description: "Terrorist". They are not my friends. Rather they make themselves my enemies.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 06:14:29 AM EST
    Thanks, aw. Thanks, edger. Jeralyn, I honestly don't believe I insulted Jim in this instance. I attacked his position. If anything, JRT insulted me, but I've certainly been called worse by better. The contention that moderate Muslims will be "won over" to the US "side" by executing this guy is absurd on its face. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that claim. It's totally without foundation. Furthermore, to cite our leaving Vietnam as an example of why Bin Laden attacked us is utterly ridiculous. Again, there's absolutely nothing to support that claim. And to posit that moderate Muslims will love and respect us if we only bomb them into submission is totally nonsensical. It's as absurd as the al qaeda position. Jim continually makes this or similar arguments. Hence, my statement. Again, one's as ridiculous as the other.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 07:24:45 AM EST
    Moussaoui clearly wants to be a martyr, and he clearly wants to be executed. If given the choice, he'd probably like to take it Saudi-style, on his knees with a swordsman slicing off his head. He's expressed his desire not to spend the rest of his life in prison. The man clearly wants his virgins. This, of course, is no reason to give them to him. And I have the obvious problems with the jury's verdict. A sane appellate court would probably rule that given the evidence, no reasonable jury could have found that Moussaoui's acts actually caused anybody's death. Absent special circumstances in which the person has a duty to act (i.e., babysitters with kids about to put their hands on hot stoves, et cetera), the law generally holds that there is not an affirmative duty to inform anybody of anything. The idea that a lie could be the proximate cause of a death doesn't pass the smell test, as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, Moussaoui's case won't be going to a sane appellate court. It will be going to the Fourth Circuit. There is an excellent chance that some very bad law will be made here that will expand the use of the Federal death penalty in ordinary criminal cases. That is my biggest worry here. I'm anti-death penalty to the core, but I'm especially anti-death penalty in the case of a Zaccarias Moussaoui, where a very bad man wants more than anything to become a martyr for a cause. I had the same arguments against the McVeigh execution. The very fact that Moussaoui wants his virgins should be sufficient reason to deny them to him. Let the bastard rot in Marion or someplace similar. Don't let Harvie Wilkinson and Mike Luttig use the case as an excuse to make it possible to execute narcotraffickers and gang members who never killed anybody but who lied to the cops about an impending hit to be carried out by someone else.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 07:53:04 AM EST
    Wondering about the appellate process. Can his lawyers appeal on his behalf? Why does this case go to the fourth circuit and not a "sane appellate court"? Can it ever to get to a sane appellate court? Or is there just no hope?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 08:07:05 AM EST
    Furthermore, to cite our leaving Vietnam as an example of why Bin Laden attacked us is utterly ridiculous. For the first time I agree with you Charlie, Vietnam as motivation for Bin Laden is a stretch. However, Jim's theory is absolutely correct. Bin Laden was enabled to attacked us because of his belief in our cowardice after watching it displayed for all to see in Mogadishu. And to posit that moderate Muslims will love and respect us if we only bomb them into submission is totally nonsensical. You are way off base here. Love, I'll give you that one.........but respect, absolutely. When you point a gun at someone, it will eventually become a joke unless you pull the trigger. Thats why you don't point guns at people unless have all your ducks in a row and are ready to fire. Thats why you don't threaten punishments with your children that your not willing to see through. Thats why, in negotiations, you don't offer a carrot that your not willing to give away. Its about credibility, something that you clearly understand very little about Charlie. If you and your ilk are permitted to go on stripping this nation of its credibility, we will be fighting this war forever, but then again, thats clearly something you will never get.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 08:14:24 AM EST
    Invariably ridiculous.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:36:41 AM EST
    Either sentence is a sentence of death. The only difference is who does the dirty work. The state or the prisoners. The bragging rights for offing him are huge. Remember Dahmer?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:06:27 AM EST
    Edger writes:
    (HK wrote)I would never wish my friends to dispense death on my behalf. (You responded) I'm with you on that, HK.
    Oh, really? In the Delay thread you wrote:
    If DeLay has truly taken Jesus into his heart maybe he could do us all a favor and die for us too?
    And then there was your famous:
    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM ...This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes... Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em... You only need one, though...
    It appears that you are very familiar with death and people you disagree with. Variable - Don't let Charlie confuse you. I didn't say that Vietnam is why, what I said was:
    Simply put, capital punishment exists in their world, and with our demonstrated response of running, Vietnam, etc., the moderate Moslems will see our failure to use it as a failure of will,
    And, seeing our failure, the moderates will sit on their hands, as they will be afraid to support us. Charlie - A denial of a statement doesn't refute it. The moderates must believe we are strong, that we will fight and that we will protect them. Executing Moussoui sends that message. Not executing him sends a signal of weakness.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#25)
    by caramel on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:08:53 AM EST
    It's amazing how far political propaganda ca go... But it's nothing new in the US where many await their deaths not because it truly serves a penological or legal purpose but merely to get "results" and immediacy to keep voters. This is not just sad, it's outrageous. How much more is it going to take for America to wake up???

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:14:00 AM EST
    ppj - Just how many more people do you need to kill to get the "message" across; 50 to 100 thousand isnt enough? Of course, just one more might do the trick - any day now and they'll get it.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:20:37 AM EST
    Charlie - A denial of a statement doesn't refute it. The moderates must believe we are strong, that we will fight and that we will protect them. Executing Moussoui sends that message. Not executing him sends a signal of weakness.
    And simply making it doesn't render it worthy of refutation, either. This is gibberish out of the "we had to destroy the village to save it" school of "thought". Yeah, sure, Jim. We'll just blow their freakin' heads off and napalm the hell out of 'em and they'll be eatin' outta the palm of our hands. Works every time. Sure thing.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:25:44 AM EST
    Charlie - Of course, youre aware of the fact that youre argueing with a guy that still thinks that if we had only had "the political will" to kill more people in Vietnam we would have won.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 11:10:51 AM EST
    I am aware.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 11:42:56 AM EST
    Caramel - Glad to see that you agree with me that all executions are political. The next question then is, what good do they do? Revenge? Inital purpose of this was by having the state do it, blood feuds would be avoided. Still works for many, although it is no longer fashionable to discuss. Prevention? Definitely does prevent further killing by the person involed. Effect on others will depend on the person and circumstance. Jondee - The message is to the moderates, not to the radicals. There is nothing to discuss with them. charlie - My comment had nothing to do with any of your response. Why do you make such obviously incorrect statements. Your statement has nothing do with the political effect of executing Moussoui. In fact, it is the opposite of what you say. Please try to keep up. Jondee - And what wars have been won by not killing your enemy?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 11:54:57 AM EST
    Charlie: I am aware. Kind of reminds of Arlo sitting on the Group W bench, doesn't it? ;-)

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 11:56:26 AM EST
    Nice try, Jim. Keeping up with you is never a problem. Staying awake, well, that's another story. While I realize you continue to be quite enamored with yourself, I don't share the infatuation. Your recipe for winning over moderate Muslims strikes me as a sure-fire recipe for disaster.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 12:31:34 PM EST
    Philosophical questions about the death penalty aside, the reason not to execute Moussoui was that he wasn't directly responsible for at least one death in the 9/11 attacks, at least by any ordinary meaning of the word "directly." In addition, enough evidence was available to the jury that he was making stuff up to glorify himself as a martyr that they should have seen through it. The rule of law is more important than making points about being tough on terrorists.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 12:40:11 PM EST
    "We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world -- a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you. ... George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greedy little killers who speak for America today ... Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid rich kids like George Bush? "They are the same ones who wanted to have Muhammad Ali locked up for refusing to kill gooks. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character. ... "And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. F*** them." --Hunter S. Thompson


    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#35)
    by HK on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 01:30:12 PM EST
    [Execution] Definitely does prevent further killing by the person involed.
    Jim, I think you will find that sentencing someone to death does not prevent them from contracting another killer from inside jail. Clarence Ray Allen, who was executed in CA this year, was already convicted of murder when he arranged the killing of someone who testified against him. In fact, those who have been sentenced to death have nothing to lose in doing this. The only way of preventing this would be to take them straight to from the courtroom to the death chamber. And I can't see even the US resorting to that, although various states are currently working on shortening the time available for appeals.
    Effect on others will depend on the person and circumstance.
    States with the death penalty have been shown to have higher homicide rates than those without. This is not an indication that the death penalty is warranted. Quite the opposite. In states which resumed sentencing people to death in the late 1970s, the homicide rate has risen much faster than in those which have done without the death penalty. Furthermore, one study analysed the statistics available and concluded that the homicide rate notably increases immediately after an execution for a brief period. (I wish I knew the name of this study, but I don't. I was told about it recently by a prominent American Law professor.)

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#36)
    by caramel on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 02:20:54 PM EST
    Executions do not serve any good, not matter what the circumstances. Revenge? If that's what society is asking for, then why bother having a legal system at all?? Why not allow people to do justice themselves? That would be a lot cheaper and quicker. More seriously, justice is precisely not about revenge. The concept of justice being the arm of revenge to bring closure is a lot of BS. Prevention? I don't think so either, if criminals reflected on what kind of punishment they could be submitted to if caught, crimes would not be committed at all... Capital punishment is barbaric, it makes society regress drastically. If we have any kind of hope in humanity for the future we have to believe that any human being can better himself/herself and that we all deserve another chance. Nobody is simply all bad or all good. There cannot be a criminal justice that kills simply to show that it's wrong to kill in the first place.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 03:46:10 PM EST
    HK - So? You just made a point for a quick and speedy execution and no LWOP. As far as murder rates, you need to hold a lot of variables constant to do an actual comparsion. Education level, per capita income, etc. Perhaps you should have looked at the Professor and asked, "Got proof, Prof?" Carmel - The answer is obvious. By the state stepping in it greatly reduces the revenge factor of the individuals. Ever heard of the Hatfields and McCoys?? edger - Thompson was a giftd commentator, but his end left a bit to be desired. charlie - Okay, then just say: "I am just making comments based on what I want PPJ to say rather than the truth." Everyone already knows that.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 03:59:49 PM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 April 4, 2006 07:14 AM Thanks, aw. Thanks, edger. Jeralyn, I honestly don't believe I insulted Jim in this instance. I attacked his position. If anything, JRT insulted me, but I've certainly been called worse by better. The contention that moderate Muslims will be "won over" to the US "side" by executing this guy is absurd on its face. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that claim. It's totally without foundation. Furthermore, to cite our leaving Vietnam as an example of why Bin Laden attacked us is utterly ridiculous. Again, there's absolutely nothing to support that claim. And to posit that moderate Muslims will love and respect us if we only bomb them into submission is totally nonsensical. It's as absurd as the al qaeda position. Jim continually makes this or similar arguments. Hence, my statement. Again, one's as ridiculous as the other.
    There you go again Smartcharlie-you have completely fabricated (complete with quotes)Jim's position and proceeded to argue against it. Nowhere did Jim say anything about winning over Muslims. Why is it neccesary to invent an opposing position before you engage in a debate? As for those who say we need to address the "root problem" what do you think that is? 1- We support Israel? 2- We are not Muslims? 3- George W Bush is president? What was the "root problem" before George W Bush? George H Bush? What about before that? 4- Fill in the blank. Please tell me what the solution is to the root problem

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 04:05:01 PM EST
    Posted by charliedontsurf1 April 4, 2006 09:14 AM Invariably ridiculous.
    Good one Smartcharlie! You are red hot today!

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 04:29:36 PM EST
    charlie - Okay, then just say: "I am just making comments based on what I want PPJ to say rather than the truth." Everyone already knows that.
    They do, eh? So, everyone associates you with the truth, do they? Yeah, sure, everyone knows you as the Lord of the Dance, too.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:26:16 PM EST
    Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Funny how a lot of the folks in favor of the death penalty forget this little bit from their Holy Book. Oh, and I'm in favor of LWOP as the only sure way to maximize Mr. Moussouis's suffering in this world. He wants to go to his 72 virgins? Let him wait about 40+ years. The concept that PPJ embraces is known amoung the Chinese as "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey". Were it not for the mere fact that our opponents are in fact smarter than monkeys intellectually, there might be something to that approach.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#43)
    by aw on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:36:00 PM EST
    The concept that PPJ embraces is known amoung the Chinese as "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey".
    Priceless.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    charlie - My comment had nothing to do with any of your response. Why do you make such obviously incorrect statements. Your statement has nothing do with the political effect of executing Moussoui. In fact, it is the opposite of what you say. Please try to keep up.
    Please try not to bore me to death. Jim, your comments rarely have anything to do with anything. There is no political effect to executing Maoussaoui. Certainly not in the way you contend. Moderate Muslims will not respect, love be reassured or won over by our execution of this village idiot who is in this position solely because he shot his mouth off and ignored his lawyers at every opportunity. Clearly, the prosecution had absoulutely nothing to do with it by way of proving their case. It's a sick joke based totally on vengeance. I don't blame the families, but the professionals are supposed to be able to rise above mere emotion.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#45)
    by HK on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 01:58:13 AM EST
    HK - So? You just made a point for a quick and speedy execution and no LWOP.
    Jim, if you can't see the idiocy of taking people straight from the courtroom to the gallows, then I despair. But by way of a brief explanation as to why this is a bad idea - 123 exonerations and counting. Justice is not about getting a person for the crime. It is about getting the right person for the crime.
    As far as murder rates, you need to hold a lot of variables constant to do an actual comparsion. Education level, per capita income, etc. Perhaps you should have looked at the Professor and asked, "Got proof, Prof?"
    Taking variables into consideration is what studies do. As for the name of the study, I will try to find out and post it on the next relevent thread for you. But I believe the rise in homicides following an execution is known as 'the brutalisation effect.' Edger - thanks for the Hunter S. Thonpson quote. His words had possibly a unique blend of courage, venom and eloquence. Fantastic.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 02:07:09 AM EST
    Charlie:
    There is no political effect to executing Maoussaoui.
    Sure there is - it'll keep bush's approval rating up where it belongs. ;-)

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 05:58:21 AM EST
    Above 30 percent?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 06:31:00 AM EST
    What percentage is 1 in 300 million? I think his mother could be convinced that she supports him.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 08:26:46 AM EST
    HK writes:
    Justice is not about getting a person for the crime. It is about getting the right person for the crime.
    That is correct in a tue criminal justice sense. But what we have here is a war. Moussoui is a self admitted member of a terrorist group who has attacked the US. Historically membership in such groups has resulted in execution when caught. I expect that you will disagree with the above. That will not change the facts of the matter. BTW - Studies may, or may not have various control factors. Such factors may, or may not, be correct or even applied. I repeat. Tell the Prof to provide some Proof. Including all the variables and how they were applied. First you use the fact that a man was not promptly executed to prove that keeping him in jail doesn't prevent him from killing someone, then you claim that you can't execute him promptly because he may be innocent. That's the old "If we had some ham we'd have some ham and eggs if we had some eggs" theory. My point remains simple. The case for capital punishment is deterrence and revenge. Re Thompson. His life was also so miserable he killed himself. A shame, because he was a great writer. charlie - The moderate Moslems will be mostly unaware of what he said, or even of how the US court system works. What they will be aware of is that he admitted to attacking us and that we gave him a fair trial and then executed him. In the world they live in that demonstrates that we are a strong society that will defend itself, and those we consider worth defending. Please read my comment to HK (above). And yes, you have demonstrated an ability to state what I haven't claimed and then attack the position you have invented. JRT writes to charlie:
    Nowhere did Jim say anything about winning over Muslims. Why is it neccesary to invent an opposing position before you engage in a debate?
    Because if you acknowledge that my position was that we must demonstrate that we are strong and will provide security for the moderates, then you must argue that the moderates do not need to feel secure to reject the terrorists. That would be a weak response. Instead charlie starts writing about winning hearts and minds, Vietnam as a single event, etc. Dark Avenger - More American. "Slapping Little Johnny to scare Bobby." Also less nuanced. But hey, that's just us Red Staters.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 09:42:04 AM EST
    Well, I guess his mother has managed to pull the wool over at least 1 more. As P.T Barnum is often misquoted: "There's a sucker born every minute."

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 10:13:28 AM EST
    I don't think the case has ever been made to a credible degree that any hijackers actually flew planes into the WTC or Pentagon. The prosecution certainly didn't prove that more information would have definitely prevented anything. The agencies couldn't utilize the substantial warnings they already had. I would like to know how the verdict affects the upcoming trials Carla Martin was concerned for. Did ZM's contradicting confessions establish a level of preventability that leaves the FAA and airlines more liable?

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 10:38:42 AM EST
    Less nuanced, PPJ?
    Ah say, ah say, this boy is confusin me a lot, and I cain't figure out why, cause I ain'ta playing cards with him for money. He's a-sayin that he's a social liberal, but then he's saying us Red Staters, when he's a-been tellin' us that he's a-livin in Caleeforniay, and my little Foghorn brain is a-fixin to pop like a cherry bomb real soon.
    I dub thee Rocutus of the Red States, now and forever! Oh, and as a religious Red Stater, would you care to give an exegesis of the passage from Romans I quoted? Do you speak for them(or we)in this area as well? The last time, you attempted(as usual) to deflect such questions with an inane saying, so passing the ammunition won't be happening today :>) Also, if you keep in mind that in your example, that there might be a Jimmy who resolves to repeat the spankee in their crime but not by getting caught, or an Abdul who would consider the spank an honor, like the Christians in the Roman arenas who prayed thanks that they were 'chosen' to die for the faith. Monkeys and young children can't really be compared to AQ, so the analogy fails on that ground as well. So. Sad. I would recommend, Man Against Himself, it would be useful in understanding why it is in our best interests NOT to execute Moussoui.
    I was a corporate pilot when I first read "Man Against Himself". Karl Menninger's warning played itself out many times before my eyes as some of my businessmen passengers warred against themselves. Want a deserved raise? Pick a day when the company stock just jumped 10%, or a good earnings statement is issued. Or ... Gritted teeth and jutted jaws. Men against themselves stalk into the company president's office knowing in advance he's on a tear, a rampage, and demand a raise at the very WORST of moments. Sometimes they are fired. On other occasions they are earmarked for replacement. Not once have I ever seen a man get a raise on a day that the boss had Baker flying. Why did they pick that day? "By God, I've sat here waiting for a raise all this time ..." I tried to caution a vice president once: "Jimmy, wait another day, another MONTH." "No, by God, I've waited as long as I'm going to ..." Nice knowing you, Jimmy. He was gone.


    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#53)
    by HK on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 10:49:30 AM EST
    HK writes: Justice is not about getting a person for the crime. It is about getting the right person for the crime. That is correct in a tue criminal justice sense. But what we have here is a war.
    Jim, I am not naive enough to think that innocent lives are not lost during war, but I still do not think that this is acceptible. And Moussaoui certainly appears to be innocent of contributing to the deaths of those people in the 9/11 attacks. I honestly don't think he was privy to any useful information. So, what are you suggesting? That he is guilty by association? I also take issue with the idea that the attacks on the WTC were an act of war. They were horrific and unacceptable, but I think that war and terrorism are different things. As for the studies, this seems to be the most balanced and thorough piece online that compares the evidence for deterrence with that for brutalisation regarding executions. It concludes that the very small minority of studies have shown any deterrent effect whatsoever and that the evidence that executions brutalises society is strong enough to do more in-depth and wider-ranging studies on the subject.

    Re: Moussoui Found Eligible for Death Penalty (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 05, 2006 at 02:45:09 PM EST
    Full of crap doesn't begin to do you Justice, James. One minute you're tellin' me that moderate Muslims "will be mostly unaware of what he said, or even of how the US court system works" and then the next thing ya know you're turnin' around and tellin' me
    What they will be aware of is that he admitted to attacking us and that we gave him a fair trial and then executed him. In the world they live in that demonstrates that we are a strong society that will defend itself, and those we consider worth defending.
    So. Let me get this straight. They won't understand it, but they'll understand the part you want them to understand exactly the way you want them to understand it and react exactly the way you want them to react to it, because nothing wins people over like when a much hated occupying Army executes one of your own for questionable reasons. Just because your case for capital punishment is simple doesn't make it valid, Jim. Deterrence and revenge as your reasoning? Your case isn't simple. It's for simpletons. No, I'm not going to read your passages to HK. I've seen enough of your shtick. And as for JRT, I've seen enough of your act to know where it's going. Nowhere. Palookaville. And spare me this semantical song and dance. You're not trying to win them over, just send them a message. Yeah, that's such a significant difference. This is just the same right wing slop, different day. It's just the same - if only we were still in Vietnam, fathers and sons could be fighting and dying side by side for the same failed nonsense strategies and the South Vietnamese would be ready to stand on their own two feet any day now, yada, yada, yada.