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Thursday Open Thread

I've got court in Denver early, followed by the dentist in Boulder and then the jail, in Englewood, yet another county. If readers would take over in this open thread, it would be a big help for me. Many thanks.

I don't know what TChris or LNILR's schedule is, but James the Menace Sensenbrenner and Tom Feeney are pushing a change in federal sentencing laws to establish mandatory minimums for all offenses, in a misguided attempt to get around Booker, and this deserves some coverage. If you don't find it here, check Sentencing Law and Policy for updates. The hearing is today and the witness list is here (pdf).

Update: The Oversight Hearing on post-Booker developments to be conducted Thursday morning by the House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security will be webcast live starting at 10:30am .

PlameGate followers: Is there anything new in this Walter Pincus interview from which one could deduce his source of information on Plame?

And last but not least, what is it with Bush that he feels secure enough to tell us that preventive war is still on his agenda? Pew has him at a 33% approval rate and the latest Wall St. Journal poll also finds him slipping--

The survey shows the president's approval rating falling to 37%, a low for Mr. Bush, with disapproval highest for his handling of the war. His party's advantage on handling Iraq has narrowed amid public pessimism about the conflict, helping Democrats open a double-digit edge in voter preferences for controlling Congress.

"At this point in the administration there's one thing that counts, and it's the war in Iraq," says Democrat pollster Peter Hart. ....respondents also say by 50%-28% that the war has weakened America's standing in the world, and by 44%-18% that it has increased the potential threat from Iran.

The survey of 1,005 adults, conducted March 10-13, shows that a congressional candidate favoring withdrawal of all U.S. troops within a year would gain favor by a 50%-35%, while one who advocates staying "as long as necessary" would lose favor by 43%-39%. The margin of error is 3.1 percentage points. ....Some 37% of Americans say they'll use their votes this fall to signal opposition to Mr. Bush, while 20% say they'll signal support for him. Congress's approval rating is even lower at 33%.

The numbers should tell Bush one thing:

Of the 66% of Americans who say they disapprove of Mr. Bush's policies, seven in 10 say that ousting Saddam Hussein from power hasn't been worth its human and financial costs as violence there persists. "For Americans, it looks more and more like...we can't stop or change it," Mr. McInturff says. Some 61% of Americans say it's time to reduce U.S. troop levels; only 21% say they would back an increase in U.S. troop strength in Iraq to escalate attacks on insurgents.

< Libby Subpoenas Records From Russert, NY Times, Judith Miller and Other Reporters | Shock and Awe Redux: U.S. Launches Huge Offensive In Iraq >
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  • Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:56:21 AM EST
    what is it with Bush that he feels secure enough to tell us that preventive war is still on his agenda? I don't find this surprising at all. For bush to do anything else other than continuing to beat the same old drum would be to question the centerpiece of his foreign policy 'strategy' of the past 6 years. And that, of course, would be questioning his own administration. Which of course would be helping the terrists... and we know where that leads: Any government that supports, protects or harbours terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent and equally guilty of terrorist crimes. ---George W. Bush Poor guy, caught in a trap of his own making. And to avoid admitting any mistakes determined to drag the country down with him. Life is tough. What's a good ol' regular guy to do? "See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other." ---George W. Bush

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:20:17 AM EST
    Did anyone see the footage panning the Dems in the Senate while Fiengold was making the censure case? Sen. Kennedy had a beet red face! The silence once again is deafening. Anyone out there have links to a Dem response?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 04:49:22 AM EST
    edger, I would suggest that Bush feels that secure because he is that secure. Not because no one is unhappy with his policies, and not because no one opposes the idea of preventative war, but rather because he stands almost no chance of being impeached for his policies, zero chance of being convicted even if he is impeached, and he doesn't have to worry about facing the voters again anytime soon. The left has spent 5+ years throwing mud at this man and he's still standing, so one must assume he has gotten used to being hit with mud. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot anyone can do until January 20, 2009, so what does he have to feel insecure about?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:10:18 AM EST
    The security of psychosis.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:00:47 AM EST
    Bush is secure because he is powerful...and untouchable. He has proven to be above the law with the help of Congress. He has no more elections to win, hence no voter reprisal worries. The opponents of pre-emptive war (I prefer the term agressive war) are powerless...absent a million man protest on the WH lawn. The threat of revolt is all I see bringing the pre-emptive war movement down.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:16:15 AM EST
    he stands almost no chance of being impeached for his policies, zero chance of being convicted even if he is impeached, and he doesn't have to worry about facing the voters again Wow, jp, that one helluva defence for your idol you've managed to work up there. "we know he did it, we don't deny it, but you cain't prove it - nyah nyah nyah"

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:34:00 AM EST
    edger - Have you been paying any attention to Iran? Link southpaw - Looks like the Feingold crowd got what they wanted. But the Demos didn't want what they got. Link

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:36:18 AM EST
    edger, What makes you think Bush is my "idol", or even someone I admire, or even someone I am glad is president? What is it with the "liberal" intellect that makes it so difficult for "liberals" to understand that one can be opposed to Bush and still not be a fan of every "liberal" wet-dream policy fantasy? Do you really live in a two-color, black and white, no middle ground, no room for diversity of opinon world, edger, or was this just another of your lame attacks launched for lack of something better to say? Typical BS. ****** Kdog, The term "aggressive war" is usually used to denote wars launched to gain territory at the expense of another state. While some, like edger perhaps, will claim that Bush has done this because we are still in Afghanistan and Iraq, no one has yet proven that we intend to stay there and to take over the countries in question, and as far as I know no one from the administration has even proposed such a thing. Hence the term "pre-emptive" which I agree is somewhat vague, but it stillmakes more sense than "aggressive" in this usage.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:48:35 AM EST
    Wind 'em up and watch 'em spin! Works every time. Great toys, these tools. Oops, I mean trolls. ;-)

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:03:11 AM EST
    RedState is bleeding all over itself this this morning:
    Please stop making Feingold look honest
    I accept the need for the intelligence... The problem is that so does Feingold. His edge is that we don't have a response to his contention that it could be done within the FISA process. I want a better response to that. Just saying "we need the intelligence" is intellectually dishonest, or seems so in light of his contention. So, given that Feingold et al suggest that the same intelligence could be gathered by the same people at the same time, but with a FISA warrant, how do we respond?
    No no no no no... We want Feingold to look honest. If the libs think he's only posturing, they won't vote for him!


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:14:07 AM EST
    jpaul...I would say Iraq does qualify as an aggressive war, though perhaps not "land-grab/imperialist" aggression (time will tell, I put nothing past my govt). I think it's a combination of the aggressive pursuit of an oil source, the aggressive pursuit of a location for militray bases, and the aggressive pursuit of a war profiteering/treasury looting opportunity. Pre-emptive implies you are trying to stop something from happeneing...in this case the govt. said they were trying to prevent Iraq from using WMD's against us....which we both know was a total crock. I must disagree and say aggressive is the best adjective for this war.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:21:04 AM EST
    Kdog, Fair enough, but some of what you list of reasons are certainly questionable. To my knowledge, we haven't grabbed any oil wells yet, nor made any cut-rate deals on oil in perpetuity. Military bases in Iraq is certainly a possibility, but not until the country is in the hands of stable government. Either way, it would be better than bases in Saudi Arabia. The last item, war profiteering is an oft-cited "fact" in U.S. history, but to date no one has ever been able to prove that as the real justification for a war. Which is not to say that it hasn't happened. It's certainly possible. But why do we always stop at war when it come to questions of financial considerations? What about foreign policy, or sweetheart business deals? Should we be less concerned if our leaders are making basic policy decisions to facilitate their own financial interests? I have a feeling that sort of thing goes on far more often than we would like to believe.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:22:22 AM EST
    What is it with the "liberal" intellect that makes it so difficult for "liberals" to understand that one can be opposed to Bush and still not be a fan of every "liberal" wet-dream policy fantasy? Then what DO you stand for? Darwin's theories? LOL

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:32:01 AM EST
    kdog - No, we don't know that. A minor bit of research shows that Saddam used WMD's in the past, had WMD's in the past, wouldn't comply with UN demands for complete disclosure, was (we now know) trying to purchase yellowcake, and trying to get back into the WMD business. We also know that he had, at least, a casual relationship with al-Qaeda, providing training facilities as well as allowing terrorists into the country for a variety of reasons...medical treatment, etc. He was also paymaster to Palestinian families whose children had blown themselves up, killing innocent people. Edger - The issue is simple, and I am amazed that RedState can't figure it out. The Constitution directs the President to protect the country and to engage in war with the permission of Congress. Congress has given permission, so the President has the right to act. God forbid if the President, any President, starts asking a Federal Judge, of any type, for permission to use the various war making capabilities we have.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:36:50 AM EST
    Please read the link. The blood of thousands is on these cowards hands. Traitors, all of them.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:38:31 AM EST
    Che, Sure, I'll stand for Darwin's theories, even though the idea of continual progress due to natural selection would seem to be proven wrong by some of the people posting comments here. Beyond that: I will stand for a more limited government, which neither party is offering, although Republicans like to claim they are. For a fiscally responsible government that spends only what it actually has to spend, which neither party even pretend to do. For an honest government that tells the truth and does not defend liars on the grounds of who they are, which both parties have shown themselves quite willing to do. Lower taxes, more personal responsibility, a government accountable to the people and dedicated to cleaning up its own mess. A government that stays out of the private affairs of its citizens and does not attempt to legislate morality or life-style choices. It's just a start, and we could go on for hours, but hopefully you get the basic point. I'm not "liberal", or liberal, or conservative; my politics and personal beliefs are not one-dimensional. Now, what do YOU stand for, Che, other than Hugo Chavez?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:44:38 AM EST
    In the marketing and sales world, if your potential universe of customers see no value in the product you offer them, then you have one of two problems. Either you are not communicating the benefits of your product clearly, or your product has no value. If you start blaming your potential customers for not "getting it" they turn their backs on you, buy from "the other guy", and you eventually go out of business.
    Some 61% of Americans say it's time to reduce U.S. troop levels; only 21% say they would back an increase in U.S. troop strength in Iraq


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:58:12 AM EST
    WMD we gave him. Hallabja was 3/17/88. Who was President on that day? That's what I thought. How about the 4 years after that? Amen. What stopped ya? No evidence he purchased yellow cake. Wishin' won't make it so. The Duncan Hines on the receipt won't help ya. We know he lied. We know he obstructed Justice just long enough to steal another election. We also know it ain't workin' anymore. We know they're sendin' more troops to Iraq to try and contain a Civil War when we were told they would be bringing them home. We know they lied and denied it all. That's always a pretty safe bet it will come to pass.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:09:55 AM EST
    And last but not least, what is it with Bush that he feels secure enough to tell us that preventive war is still on his agenda? Pew has him at a 33% approval rate and the latest Wall St. Journal poll also finds him slipping Another 9/11 would change that. No doubt Bush is praying for one, since he profited more than anyone else in the world from the last one.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:36:51 AM EST
    Report only bad news in Iraq, downplay a booming economy, poorly report Katrina (however poorly handeled) and then to top it off misreport NSA and Dubuai. Wow the president is only 38% average. If things in this world made sense it'd be lower. Never mind that most people go negative when polled instead of when they actually vote. All that said these numbers do hurt the president because Congressman and Senators don't have the luxuary of not having to run again. Bush needs to get out more and supporters like me get frustrated that he seems to consider himself above that. But when it comes to National Security Bush shouldn't worry about polls and for some reason I don't think he will.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Lora on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:40:47 AM EST
    And last but not least, what is it with Bush that he feels secure enough to tell us that preventive war is still on his agenda? When he has Diebold on his side, what does he need popular support for? Not to mention ES&S, Sequoia, various key secretaries of state and election officials, merciless attacks on election whistleblowers, the complicity of most of the "mainstream" media, to name a few more.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:09:53 AM EST
    insults deleted

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:11:18 AM EST
    insult deleted

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:18:13 AM EST
    Yeah, big US Air Offensive in Iraq. Clearly, the Iraqis are more than ready to take over for themselves and form their own peaceful, stable government and we'll be all paid back by next Tuesday just like Wimpy and Wolfie and the neocons promised all along. So, shrubco wants to play "my favorite year" and pretend it's 2003 again. No sale. No chance. I get townhall.com for yucks and to see what the lunatics are "thinkin'". Imagine my surprise when R Emmett Tyrrell informs me that Rock&Roll is Dead and it's been replaced by right wing talk radio. Well if anyone's got his finger on the pulse of Rock&Roll it's R Emmett Tyrrell so you've got to take this seriously. Then you've got Coulter's "White Like Me" welcome to Claude Allen. Unbelievable.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:27:32 AM EST
    JP, I stand for government by the people and for the people. Simple as that. Slado says we downplay a booming economy. Tell that to the additional 4 million who have fallen below the poverty line since 2000, while execs receive, on average, 400% more $ than the ave worker. Outsourcing? Need I go on? How would you bring back the 4 million more people that have fallen into poverty since 2000? About the only thing we agree on so far is that the current two party system is a joke. And a cruel one at that.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:32:06 AM EST
    Sorry that last paragraph was to be deleted. Effing work computers. I wish my case would get started. I'm stuck in a lounge watching the continued battle for the hearts and other organs of the Iraqi people. How many times do we have to bomb these maroons to get them to like us? McClellan says this was all thought up and done by the commanders in Iraq. The president was not aware of the op. LOL

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    I stand for government by the people and for the people. Simple as that. If that were true, Che, you wouldn't spend so much time complaining. We have a government by the people and for the people, even if it has lately been doing things neither one of us two people approve of. If that were true, you wouldn't be such a fan of Chavez, whose government is more "to the people, at the expense of the people" (Yeah, I know he won an election, Che. So did Bush. That in and of itself does not make all government actions right in Venezuela anymore than it does in the U.S. Tell that to the additional 4 million who have fallen below the poverty line since 2000, while execs receive, on average, 400% more $ than the ave worker. Outsourcing? Need I go on? Yes please. Start with a link that supports your claim of 4 million more people below the poverty line since 2000. Then move on to another which shows that the average executive salary is 4 times the average worker's salary. Be honest about it, and use median incomes rather than relying on a relatively few overpaid executives to drive the average up. Outsourcing is an issue, certainly, but what do you propose instead? Be specific.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:38:15 AM EST
    big US Air Offensive in Iraq. Yeah well, if you've killed and maimed tens of thousands of Americans, killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, spent $250 billion dollars and six years trying to sell your product, I guess the only option you have left, if you can't understand that your product has no value to anyone, is to use all the guns you have, and steal enough from your potential customers to keep yourself in business.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:38:25 AM EST
    From the link, since apparently nobody cares to read it.. "All Americans, be they old-line conservatives who hate seeing their country hopelessly embroiled in the Old World's perpetual quarrels, or liberals in the honorable anti-imperilialist and antimilitarist tradition of William Jennings Bryan, or the apolitical who resent the prospect of becoming an irradiated corpse, must put aside their differences and start loudly and persistently identifying these Congressional Likudniki for what they are: Quislings." Anyone disagree with that?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    a booming economy
    A booming economy? More like a liquidation sale.
    The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe. - Abraham Lincoln


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:49:17 AM EST
    Abe was da man...Not perfect but great. "Myths After Lincoln" by Lloyd Lewis. Some good stuff in there.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:50:05 AM EST
    I think there's a complex psychology going on with Bush & the neocons. On the one hand, the neocons never really got to do the "in your face happy dance" over the corpse of the Soviet Union. The old cold warriors want to enjoy the fruits of being #1 by rubbing it in the faces of the rest of the world. I imagine they also felt empty and purposeless since the defeat of their great adversary. The GWOT allows them to indulge both of those hungers at the same time. There is also an economic aspect to this. The dollar is currently being propped up, in part at least, by its use as the currency of oil trade. Just before Bush took office, Saddam had threatened to sell his oil in Euros. We know what happened to him, and we know planning for it started before 9/11. In Bush's first administration, Venezuela's ambassador to Russia made a public comment about switching from the dollar to the Euro for their oil bourse. The US backed (more likely instigated) a coup against the democratically-elected and very popular president of Venezuela (Hugo Chavez). The coup failed, but then Venezuela is still using the dollar. Note the rhetoric against Chavez that continues, with Rummy comparing him to Hitler(!!). This next Monday, March 20th, Iran is slated to open a new oil bourse denominated in Euros. So now Bush is pushing pre-emptive war and Bolton is rattling the US saber at the UN. Will they attack this weekend? I dunno. It is hard for me to believe they are logistically ready. However, they are getting mighty bellicose, and there is little doubt they are terrified at what will happen to the US economy if the dollar goes off the oil standard. These explanations are not meant to exclude good old-fashioned economic imperialism or jingoistic racism, both of which certainly play a part in neocon policies.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:58:14 AM EST
    income disparity Actually jpaul..it appears that the typical executive makes 475 times more than the typical factory worker. Japan is 11 times and Britain is 22 times, for comparison. According the The Economist as reported by PBS.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:04:36 AM EST
    kdog, from your link:
    The U.S. ranks last among OECD nations in terms of income equality, yet in 1993 the poorest 10% of the U.S. population was still wealthier than two-thirds of the rest of the world.
    Perhaps there's a connection?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by roy on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:09:21 AM EST
    sarc, Equality is more important than quality. Just like how e-mail is better than regular mail.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:11:09 AM EST
    Jim, you are all wrong. Bush and his minions lied to us about Iraq, over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again. We are not even sure that Saddam gassed his own people. The gassing happened in the 80's when Iraq and Iran were fighting each other. The Reagan administration blamed Iran for the gassing.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:22:05 AM EST
    Kdog, According to your numbers, if we assume the "average" factory worker makes $30,000 a year, the "average" executive makes $14,250,000 a year. What you have here is a computation which does not use the median income of the average executive. Because it counts the ridiculous salaries some people award themselves (a perk of owning the company), it drives up the "average" income of the executive class. The "average" exec makes nowhere near $14 million a year. How about actual numbers next time?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:32:52 AM EST
    They're not my numbers jpaul...The Economist came up with them. It was the best I could find in 2 minutes on google. Regardless if its 475 times or 100 times....the fact that the disparity is growing is not in doubt. Doesn't that trouble you at all? sarc...I wouldn't be surprised to learn that American housepets live better than 1/2 the world. What we call poor in America would be considered living pretty good in most of the third world, I agree with that. But I don't see what that has to do with the growing disparity of wealth in this country.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by roy on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:36:27 AM EST
    Interesting development in the illegal and foolish New Orleans gun confiscations:
    After denying it for months, the City of New Orleans on Wednesday admitted that it does have a stockpile of firearms seized from private citizens in the days following Hurricane Katrina.
    ...
    "We're almost in disbelief," said Second Amendment Foundation Founder Alan Gottlieb on Wednesday. "For months, the city has maintained it did not have any guns in its possession that had been taken from people following the hurricane. Now our attorneys have seen the proof that New Orleans was less than honest with the court."
    Nice to see how a Democratic city's rulers treat an enshrined individual right they don't like. Break the law, lie about it, stall for time after the secret's out. (30% deliberately inflamatory)

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:38:10 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Perhaps you failed to notice the "permission of Congress" or perhaps you were just straining for an opening statement. And if Hillary is the Pres, and gets the same permission Bush received, she too can do it. And Congress had oversight. The leadership was briefed. That they didn't do anything is hardly the fault of anyone but themselves. justpaul - Links? You want links? Wow. kdog - Taking your links on faith, always a dangerous thing to do if Bill Moyers is involved, you need to make a few side notes. Much of the US salaries you note are, in fact, stock of the companies they run. This is not true in England and Japan. I have never seen a study of actual salary - no stocks no performance bonus - between the three countries. There is also the matter of perks, which are huge in Japan and England. On the worker bee side, stock options and performance pay is almost unknown in Japan and England, but not in the US. I don't remember the exact number, but there were a lot of new "millionaires" when Microsoft when public. For years and years I had a base salary that would excite no one but made a very nice living on commissions and performance bucks. So, is the average worker underpaid? Maybe. Is the average executive overpaid? Maybe. But the studies don't prove it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Lora on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:43:40 AM EST
    Government by the people and for the people? I think not. I'm NOT gonna let go of 2004. There is a preponderance of evidence that points to a government by the corporations and for the corporations.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:44:27 AM EST
    debbie - That is your belief system. Enjoy it. You certainly will not change it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:54:06 AM EST
    Shargash, please give a link, we could use it. Thanks.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 10:57:32 AM EST
    Shargash, please give a link, we could use it. Thanks.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:12:00 AM EST
    But I don't see what that has to do with the growing disparity of wealth in this country.
    When offered the opportunity to succeed greatly, many will do so, and in doing so will lift the boats for many others as well. Hence the quote from your link. Regardless, can you tell us why the disparity is bad?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:23:41 AM EST
    They're not my numbers jpaul...The Economist came up with them. It was the best I could find in 2 minutes on google. Regardless if its 475 times or 100 times....the fact that the disparity is growing is not in doubt. Doesn't that trouble you at all? What numbers, Kdog? All we have is a claim about a disparity in salaries with no actual data presented. And that claim is highly dubious. Without the actual salaries used to figure that disparity, there is no way to tell if it has any validity at all. Somehow I doubt that if Bush were to come out and say the number of people living below the poverty line had fallen by even 20% you'd take his word for it with no data. As for whether it bothers me: No, not particularly. I'd need to know a lot more about what is going on, what numbers are being used, what industries we are talking about, etc...before I got too upset about it. The fact is that the people who own the company will always make more than the people who work for them, and when the economy grows, profits grow and the people who own the company make even more. This is true under every administration. Beyond that, we have the same old question of who decides how much an hours worth of work is worth, the guy performing the work, or the guy paying him to perform it. I know a lot of "liberals" like to say the guy who performs the work should get to decide, but I don't see it that way. The guy who is paying for the work gets to decide how much the work is worth to him, and if the guy doing the work doesn't feel that it's enough, he is free to seek work elsewhere. If his skills are so specific, or so minimal, that he can't seek work elsewhere, I would say he's made some really bad decisions in his life that have left him beholden to one specific firm and I still don't expect the owner of the company to bail him out. But why stop at industry? What about lawyers? What is the difference in compensation between the average law firm partner and the average legal secretary? Or how about Hollywood? How much more does the left's newest posterboy, George Clooney, make over the gaffer who works on the same film? Why isn't George spreading the wealth? Why haven't you denounced him for not doing so? And just what is it you propose to do to right this "wrong" anyway? Should the government step in and tell private companies how much they can pay their executives? Or how much they have to pay their workers? Supposing they do the former, what happens to all that freed up liquidity? Does it get confiscated by the government for another social welfare program? Or does it just sit in the bank? Just how far does your willingness to engineer the economy go?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by roy on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    justpaul,
    How much more does the left's newest posterboy, George Clooney, make over the gaffer who works on the same film? Why isn't George spreading the wealth?
    You're on to something interesting, but Clooney actually spreads the wealth quite a bit. Not to gaffers, but to those in need. Or cops.
    George Clooney has donated $1 million to the United Way Hurricane Katrina Response Fund to help out the victims of the hurricane.
    George Clooney is to donate a quarter of the profits from his Las Vegas glamorous casino, 'The Ramblas', for charity. The actor feels guilty of having so much money, while there are still children starving to death.
    Clooney has donated ten scooters to Italian emergency services to help them in their difficult task.
    The winner of the Academy Award for best supporting actor for his role in "Syriana" has donated his decadent Oscar gift bag to the United Way.
    So while he may give less than, say, Exxon does, you might want a greedier liberal to pick on.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:47:47 AM EST
    Just to put some numbers on it, I think a union gaffer's rate is around $30-40/hour with generous overtime rates. Of course, the quantity of union gaffer work is quite limited, and each job only lasts 3-4 months with no gaurantee that there will be another one coming soon, that year, or ever, actually. Clooney probably made, I don't know, 20 - 30 mill in '05? That said, he did invest some money in Syriana I believe, which makes him a biz owner, and I think I read somewhere that he did donate 1 mill to Katrina relief. But, then again, some of his movies are shot outside of the US to save a buck or two with non-union labor and, you know, outsourcing...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by swingvote on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:12:34 PM EST
    Roy, So Clooney donated $1 million dollars out of how much? If he made $10 million, that's only 10%. If he made $20 million, that only 5%. What a cheap bastard (jk)! But that's donations, not income. If we assume George is in the $10 million per movie club (I don't think he's in the $20 million club), why isn't he telling the producers he wants only the standard union wage so that that the rest of the money can be spread around? Shouldn't everyone working on the film make the same amount? Isn't that the argument Kdog is making? I don't mean to pick on George, and, personally, I say more power to him. He should take all he can get for every role they want him for. Living well is one of the reasons people become actors or seek other high-paid jobs. But if one is going to whine about how much certain employers pay the people they employ, why them and not others? And what about those average law-firm partners? Why are they worth millions per year while the secretaries make $30,000 or less? Shouldn't they be the first target in the grand income equivalency crusade if it's going to be launched from a lawyer's blog?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:22:35 PM EST
    Rush Limbaugh's selling "gift" subscriptions of his newsletter to soldiers in Iraq. You pay him and he sends it to some torturer in Iraq. Real white've ya Rush.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:27:45 PM EST
    Clooney's an absolute saint compared to that.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:47:03 PM EST
    But, then again, some of his movies are shot outside of the US to save a buck or two with non-union labor and, you know, outsourcing...
    Then again, Syriana takes place in The Middle East, not Kansas. Authenticity. That just might have something to do with it. And unless he's a Producer, Clooney's got no say in what the Grips get. He's just another employee. He was a Producer on Syriana. Do you know what the Grips got on Syriana? On Goodnight and GL? That's what I thought. Like Tom Hanks said, "Sure I'm overpaid. It's insane! But what would you have me do, take less so rupert murdoch can take more? Not on your life." That's why America loves Tom Hanks. That's why the World loves Tom Hanks.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:09:59 PM EST
    But why stop at industry? What about lawyers? What is the difference in compensation between the average law firm partner and the average legal secretary? Or how about Hollywood? How much more does the left's newest posterboy, George Clooney, make over the gaffer who works on the same film? Why isn't George spreading the wealth? Why haven't you denounced him for not doing so? And just what is it you propose to do to right this "wrong" anyway? Should the government step in and tell private companies how much they can pay their executives? Or how much they have to pay their workers? Supposing they do the former, what happens to all that freed up liquidity? Does it get confiscated by the government for another social welfare program? Or does it just sit in the bank? Just how far does your willingness to engineer the economy go?
    Boy, there ain't a 7th Grade Debating Team in this or any other land whose eyes wouldn't light up when they saw you comin', jp. They'd just burn those strawmen down! Since when did it become George Clooney's Job to do shrub's job for him? It goes further than this Administration's. It goes further than tax cuts in time of War. It doesn't make a show of how much they love and support the troops while cutting their VA benefits. Use 'em for photo ops then cut 'em loose. They can be heroes - just for one day. Disposable Heroes. No wonder support for shrub and Iraq among the Military and their families has plummeted in the last Year. And with this promised draw down turning into an escalation, it's not gonna get any better.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:14:38 PM EST
    JP, So sorry. My data is wrong: The official poverty rate in the U.S. has increased for four consecutive years, from a 26-year low of 11.3% in 2000 to 12.7% in 2004. This means that 37.0 million people were below the official poverty thresholds in 2004. This is 5.4 million more than in 2000. The poverty rate for children under 18 increased from 16.2% to 17.8% over that period. Others have already rendered the other points of your arguments moot. I won't pile on. We have a government by the people and for the people, Well now you have NO credibility. Are you kidding me?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:21:05 PM EST
    Outsourcing is an issue, certainly, but what do you propose instead? Be specific. Limits on how many jobs may be outsourced by a given corp. Loss of their obscene tax breaks for outsourcing. Need other suggestions? I'm not an economist. Should I ask you for specifics or should I just settle for "more personal responsibility" or "limited government"?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:32:13 PM EST
    Then again, there are no movies made in the US to look like other locations...and none shot in other locations to look like the US. That never happens. Regardless, on Syriana the key grip is a member of Local 80 and as such is usually paid overseas at at least the union wage he would have made here. Most, if not all, of the other grips were local hires and made their local rate, which is nowhere near what they would make as members of Local 80 here. In the US on GNAGL, on which Clooney was also a producer, all the union grips made at least union wages, which are somewhat less than union gaffer's wages of $30 - 40 hour. Any of them that went overseas - and, likely, only the keys did - again usually make about the same there, while any local hires overseas make their (lower) local wages. Lastly, to think that Clooney has anything to do with deciding what to pay the grips on his projects, except to the broad point of deciding whether or not to shoot overseas for "authenticity" as you say, is beyond laughable. Do you have any real understanding of the issues of any of the dozens of posts you make each day? That's what I thought.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    We're ready to attack Iran and Syria and you people talk about George Clooneys' Key Grip wage scales? Absolutely pathetic. Is there any spine in the "liberals?" Sure as hell isn't in the "conservatives."

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:01:46 PM EST
    Yeah, suo, that's why they shot Lawrence of Arabia in Liverpool. Ya can work wonders with a little gaffer's tape. They'll never know the difference. I can see why you're a Bush man.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Slado on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:20:16 PM EST
    Che how many of theos people are illegal immigrants and are not the responsibility of the US government? There are roughly 10-20million illegal immigrants in the country. Also did the threshold of poverty match inflation or was it more/less? Just wondering.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:36:08 PM EST
    Slado, (Sigh) I gave the link. Now I have to READ it for you. Do your own f***ing work and you tell ME! Or get a real job.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by cpinva on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:37:32 PM EST
    bush feels secure for 3 reasons: 1. he has no more elections to win, barring a run for the senate or house after his current term expires. i see little real possibility of that happening. 2. he lives in an alternate reality bubble, where up is down, black is white, things are as he wants them to be, not as they actually are. suffering a strange form of dyslexia, 33% approval is really 66%. 3. as justpaul correctly noted above, with a GOP majority in both houses, bush stands a nearly -0- chance of being impeached. if impeached, a nearly -0- chance of conviction. bush = "what, me worry?"

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:54:04 PM EST
    j.p - Why dont you consider govt contracts, tax-breaks, and incentives "social welfare programs"? They all involve the beneficiaries in a symbiotic dependance on "big government" and implicate the government in a level of fraud and corruption that makes welfare fraud look like a back alley crap game. But, I forget, you gotta kiss up and kick down to get ahead.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:23:40 PM EST
    jpaul, sarc..what to do, we can start by not going backwards. Captitalism is the best system, but we've always found the need for limits in our history. Anti-trust laws, labor laws...I believe they changed our country for the better. Improved untold unhuman lives. The way I see it, right now the country is being sold out. My beef isn't the business owner making a couple mill, or the lawyer, the movie star or the ballplayer. It's the 5% who own nearly all the wealth who act against the best interests of a nation that supports and protects that wealth; buying off the govt. meant to be by, of, and for the people. And the guy making 600 million in wages and options shipping jobs overseas to save 50 mill. It's the governments job to prevent that. Plus, we could raise the minimum wage a buck. The hourly wage shouldn't cost less than a value meal. That's just ridiculous. Personal note..I always appreciate the counter point and debate. The country is at it's best when basic right/left policy is balanced. History shows us how evil hardcore fascism and communism can be. I fear we are tipping too close to fascism at this time in history. As always, just this slob's view. Respect. LWW...you are right. All our banter seems pretty petty when more people are fixing to face a violent end. A lotta people probably just trying to get by like the rest of us. For what?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:36:00 PM EST
    'We have a govt for the people by the people." We have a system in which a candidate has to raise millions of strings attached dollars in order to have any chance of being elected. How is that "for the people, by the people" ?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:38:55 PM EST
    but we've always found the need for limits
    Fair enough kodg, but you do recognize that one man's limits are another man's prohibitions.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:48:12 PM EST
    As Thomas Szaz said: competitive games need referees.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by John Mann on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:53:08 PM EST
    he stands almost no chance of being impeached for his policies, zero chance of being convicted even if he is impeached, and he doesn't have to worry about facing the voters again
    Well, he might avoid impeachment, but there's always hope for a War Crimes trial. Of course if he doesn't wind up in front of the firing squad he so richly deserves, he'll have to spend the rest of his miserable life knowing that he was the worst and the most despicable President in history.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:57:36 PM EST
    I do sarc. For example...this man favors the prohibition of slavery, harmful enviromental pollution, tax breaks to outsourcers. This man opposes the prohibition of drugs, free speech, due process. Each issue on it's merits. Now if we could get our government to do that isntead of this partyline, make up your mind ahead of time b.s. I've been guilty of it myself...it's an easy trap to fall into in a two party system.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 04:32:51 PM EST
    tax breaks to outsourcers.
    I gotta say, I'm not up on this one. Do you mean some co's are getting taxbreaks because they're outsourcing? Or that some co's legitimate, congress-approved, play by the rules tax deductions - that a whole pile of businesses take and are completely independent of outsourcing - should be revoked as punishment if they outsource? Have you got a link to a good explantion, because I haven't found one.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Lww on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:32:53 PM EST
    Well said,Kdog. We had John Anderson in 1980, what was he thinking? Ross Perot, I remember in Sept of 92 the Networks said Perot was hurting Clinton more than Bush Sr, fell outta my chair. It's a two party system, who ya gonna vote for?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:48:29 PM EST
    Dark Avenger writes:
    Well, the thought of a Hillary administration survelling you is rather amusing, you must admit.
    Hillary? Survelling me? Is this safe? Will a condomn be involved? And why do you keep quoting these "conservative" scholars. I'm not a conservative, Bush is not a conservative. So what's your point? That somebody who 99.99999999999% of the country hasn't heard of agrees with you? Duh........ cpinva and et al.... The country is not governed based on popularity polls. Now I know you think it is... but check who is still Pres...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:11:20 PM EST
    Takeoff on the Oscars from Riverbend in Baghdad: Nominees for Best Actor: Ibraheim Al-Jaffari in "Free Iraqi Elections" for his attempted portrayal of a non-sectarian, independent PM of a 'legitimate' Iraqi government. George W. Bush in "OIF: The War on Terror" The third sequel to the original "Operation Iraqi Freedom: Weapons of Mass Destruction" and "Operation Iraqi Freedom: Liberating Iraqis". Bush's nomination comes for his convincing portrayal as the worlds first mentally challenged president.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:12:47 PM EST
    i've got court in denver early, followed by the dentist in boulder and then the jail, in englewood woah...hard to decide which is worse... [Skippy, the dentist was the worst, by far]

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 08:26:15 AM EST
    sarc...from factcheck prior to the 2004 election.
    There is indeed a tax break for US-based multinational corporations to locate operations overseas. Bush isn't to blame for it -- it's been there for decades. It's also true that Bush doesn't support Kerry's proposed remedy, which is controversial.
    The extent of the job loss and tax revenue loss is up for debate, but there appears to be no doubt that the tax break does exist, and has existed for sometime.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 09:30:38 AM EST
    Thanks kdog, great link.
    The incentive exists because the US taxes corporations at rates higher than most other countries.
    iow, corps produce goods/services in other countries where the corp's economic ativities in those countries will be taxed at a lower rate than if the activities occured here. That's a mighty big incentive. Almost identical to how you buy your cigs in Jersey or on-line because of the lower cig taxes there than in NY, corps also go to where the lower taxes are. Remember, every pack you choose to buy outside NY hurts, personally, economically, some New Yorker in the cig biz and NY in general due to the state receiving less tax money. NY could fix its cig outsourcing problem by lowering its taxes. The US could do the same. Unless you are advocating car searches in the Lincoln Tunnel to force people to pay the NY taxes on the cigs they bring back?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 09:49:37 AM EST
    I think it's NY State hurting cigarette retailers in NY...not smokers who buy online. The taxes are outrageous. I'd rather buy from the corner store, it would be easier for me. But I refuse to be extorted. I see your point though, perhaps the feds are more to blame than the multi-national US based corporations who outsource, since it's the government providing a financial incentive to outsource. I wish some corporations felt more loyalty towards the country that allows them to flourish, but they are out to make money, not serve the people. That's the government's job. It would make sense for the feds to cut taxes so the financial incentive is to keep jobs here in the US, and not the other way around. Just as it would make sense for NY City and State govt. to cut cigarette taxes to benefit NY cigarette retailers. No? Slight problem with your analogy though...when I buy cigarettes online and don't report it to the state I am breaking the law. NY is cracking down on this and actually billing some people for the taxes on their online tobacco purchases. Corporate outsourcing to dodge taxes is 100% legal. In fact, as we discussed, the tax code encourages it. That ain't right.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 10:09:45 AM EST
    It would make sense for the feds to cut taxes so the financial incentive is to keep jobs here in the US, and not the other way around. Just as it would make sense for NY City and State govt. to cut cigarette taxes to benefit NY cigarette retailers. No?
    I'm with you 100% kdog.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:26:17 PM EST
    Dark Avenger - Well, I really couldn't resist. I think someone also said that, or like that. ;-) And I do what to charlie? Are you bringing Hillary back into the conversation. BTW - NOT providing links is just his way of proving that he doesn't have to obey the rules. And my point remains. You bring up a supposedly Repub and/or Conservative and try to act stunned when I tell you that I really don't care. Since I am neither, their opinion has little weight with me.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:45:37 PM EST
    ppj - "Links." Cut the b.s. Your consistent m.o has been that any time you cant summon the intellectual honesty to attempt to debate or engage what the link says, to dispence with the info by claiming the source is "biased", "has an ax-to-grind" etc Witness your "Moyers cant be trusted" crack. Quit pissing on our shoes and telling us its raining.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:52:43 PM EST
    I like that bit about "Bush isnt a consrvative." Dont tell me; he's a National Socialis..uh Social Liberal.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 05:15:39 PM EST
    Yeah, sure thing, Jim. If that helps you. OK, fine. You're not a republican. You're not a conservative. You're not bound by the laws of gravity. You can change the course of mighty rivers. You can bend steel with your bare hands. yada, yada, yada. You're also playin' a lousy hand. Again. You've been tryin' to bluff your way through with quantity over quality since ya pulled into town. Once more with feeling, 19 lousy links don't make one good one. It just makes a bigger pile of crap. You're a shrub shill, Jim. End of story. That's all you've ever been. That's all you ever will be. You've done nothing but sig heil since ya got here. Ya haven't deviated from that course one bit. If the knucklehead in chief were to invade Canada tomorrow, you'd ante up with some haughty horsebrit attributing it to the Saskatchewan Seal Hunt "Just as he has stated." The fact that Saskatchewan, being landlocked, has no seal hunt and never has will - of course - make no difference to either one of you.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 06:54:11 AM EST
    Finally. There's going to be a place for all good moonbats to go when we die of overexposure to wingnut bullsh*t. Or a place to send bush when we're done playing with him... ;-) Swedes plan to colonise Moon Flat-pack lunar base Friday 17th March 2006
    We always knew the Swedes were a shifty bunch - softening hearts worldwide with a pleasing blend of inoffensive europop, cheap yet effortlessly stylish flat-pack furniture and fun-loving, pnemuatic blonde fillies - but now the horrible truth can now be revealed: they're planning to colonise the Moon thereby ensuring their own survival as the Earth's resources dwindle and lesser nations are returned to a primitive Stone-Age state enslaved to Sweden's galactic ambitions*. The proof comes in the form of the innocent-looking SMART-Centre which, according to various reports, has assembled a consortium of more than 50 partners - including Japan's Shimizu Corporation, US NASA contractor Orbitech and the UK's Cranfield University - to turn the centre's Dr. Niklas Järvstråt's dreams of extraterrestrial conquest into reality.


    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 07:59:53 AM EST
    Charlie, PPJ is such a poor shill that he can't even repeat the Party line about the warrantless wiretaps, so he ends up shooting his own side, kinda like a certain guy from Wyoming who enjoys hunting with his old buddy Jim Beam :>)
    George Thorogood's gonna have to do an update for shooter "I hunt alone" Yeah, WE prefer ya hunt by yourself.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by glanton on Sat Mar 18, 2006 at 09:08:09 PM EST
    In case anyone hadn't seen this Don't vote it only encourages them.