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Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued

The old threads are closed on the anti-Muslim cartoons. Here's a new one. The San Francisco Chronicle today reports on what's behind the Muslim outrage.

And you knew it wouldn't be long -- here come the t-shirts.

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  • Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:12:15 AM EST
    I still can't figure out why Bush's statements have been to blame the press. From AP:
    In its first reaction more than a week ago, the State Department appeared to blame the European media for publishing the cartoons, instead of condemning the violence that resulted, although U.S. officials said their message was misconstrued and taken out of context. Then, after days of careful statements supporting press freedoms while denouncing violence, President Bush suggested anew that the press had been irresponsible. "America's initial response was a bit lacking and regrettable, in that it actually sided with those who were offended as opposed to the Europeans, and particularly the Danes, who should have gotten unqualified support," said Reuel Marc Gerecht, a conservative foreign policy scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and the Project for a New American Century.
    Kinsley at Slate gets it right:
    ...the offended Muslims do not want a world where people are free to do both. They don't even want a world where people are not free to do either, which would at least be consistent. They want a world where you may not portray the Prophet Mohammed (even flatteringly, slaying infidels or whatnot) but you may deny the Holocaust all day long. The shameful American position on all this is boilerplate endorsement of free expression combined with denunciation of the cartoons as an "unacceptable" insult... But the limits of free expression cannot be set by the sensitivities of people who don't believe in it. How can President Bush continue to ask young Americans to sacrifice their lives for freedom in the Muslim world, if he won't even defend freedom verbally when forces from that world are suppressing it in our own?


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:20:28 AM EST
    I would be curious if someone would collect some of the really aggregious insults directed against atheists in relatively recent American political discourse. One might also include the references to God in support of a political/legal position where it is completely irrelevant. Ba'al's conjecture: The list would include quite a number of comments from the same people who note that the cartoons are an unacceptable insult to religion, blah blah blah.....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:39:40 AM EST
    Punisher- We did rank amongst the highest in freedom of the press. Do you think we have the right to demand other countries adopt our values. If so, we have some pretty pisspoor values apart from that of a free press.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:49:39 AM EST
    Punisher-Thought I would post a link about International Free Press Ranking and found that my memory did not serve me well. We rank well below Denmark. We are #13 in one Ranking and #17 in an other. Denmark is respectively #3 and #10.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:04:16 AM EST
    Ba'al: aggregious insults directed against atheists in relatively recent American political discourse A Look on the Bright Side of Social and Religious Issues
    atheist bashers, the ones who want to blame everything that goes wrong, from 9-11 to hurricanes, on atheists, choose not to use the word with an understanding of its proper syntax, even if they know about the formal properties of language. The ones who say there are no atheists in foxholes discount the authenticity of a person's belief system. They show their utter disrespect and contempt for anyone who says they do not believe in God.


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 10:53:18 AM EST
    Holy Piss Christ Batman! I gotta wonder why there where no riots when the cartoons were published in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. During Ramandan no less.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#8)
    by Andreas on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:02:57 AM EST
    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:20:34 AM EST
    Ba'al's conjecture: The list would include quite a number of comments from the same people who note that the cartoons are an unacceptable insult to religion, blah blah blah.....
    There's also a lot of right-wing Christians (like my father) using this as further proof of why Islam is evil and all Muslims are terrorists, because a caricature of the Prophet Muhommed is supposedly "such a minor thing." Yet these are the same people who pitch huge fits about whether stores say "Merry Christmas" or not, and use stupid crap like that to prove why Christians are so, so persecuted. No, Christians are not violently protesting over any of this (though last year, when I was a cashier, I was yelled at for quite some time for saying "Happy Holidays" to a customer, and I imagine that and much worse has happend elsewhere), but they're filing frivolous lawsuits across the country on stuff like this and firing up the believers. It's a more civilized reaction, perhaps, but still preposterous nonetheless.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:17:22 PM EST
    There's also a lot of right-wing Christians (like my father) using this as further proof of why Islam is evil and all Muslims are terrorists, because a caricature of the Prophet Muhommed is supposedly "such a minor thing." Yet these are the same people who pitch huge fits about whether stores say "Merry Christmas"
    Yeah? Are they "pitching a huge fit" by burning buildings? Slicing themselves with razors, rioting violently? Destroying property of others? Wow, you've got a nice moral relativism going on there. Our government is right to criticize both the editors and those that would use violence in protest of the cartoons. Both are wrong, but only one is legal. You're freedom of speech is subject to criticism if you say stupid sh!t.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#11)
    by cpinva on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:21:08 PM EST
    i think i'm confused. what would be considered an "acceptable" insult, to a particular religion? how many of you have actually seen the cartoons in question? i haven't, because our simpering major media is too weak kneed to print them. according to the wp editorial, words are sufficient, the cartoons themselves needn't be shown. i vigorously disagree. freedom of the press is meaningless, if the press practices self-censorship. with regard to other country's speech laws, who the f cares? irrelevant, with respect to our own, and what should have been the first, middle and last comment, by our gov't.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:23:41 PM EST
    Our government is right to criticize both the editors and those that would use violence in protest of the cartoons. Then you must have been pretty disappointed in the President's one-sided first response.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:23:43 PM EST
    Are they "pitching a huge fit" by burning buildings?... Destroying property of others?
    "I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy." Link
    Wow, you've got a nice moral relativism going on there

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:27:10 PM EST
    Patrick-
    Yeah? Are they "pitching a huge fit" by burning buildings? Slicing themselves with razors, rioting violently? Destroying property of others? Wow, you've got a nice moral relativism going on there.
    Ever heard of the IRA?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 12:31:25 PM EST
    Patrick-
    Both are wrong, but only one is legal.
    Evidently from te Steve Gilliard link I posted above Both are illegal. You are good with criminal codes. Feel free to look this one up:
    Article 140 of the Criminal Code allows for a fine and up to four months of imprisonment for demeaning a "recognized religious community." Mogens Glistrup, a tax protester turned xenophobe, was imprisoned for 20 days last year for a racist speech. He compared Turks to rabbits.
    you may need to hire a Danish translator, but I am sure you want to keep up with what is legal.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#16)
    by ras on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:15:12 PM EST
    The Left is just now starting to realize that aligning themselves w/Islamic Reactionaries, just so they could take a few more gratuitous swipes at Bush, was a major mistake. Faster, please. Absent a Reformation, Islam is not compatible with Western values, and the two cannot coexist in the same society unless the percentage of Muslims is very low indeed. Such an Islamic Reformation could take place, it's at least possible, but not with so many enablers, as exemplified above by Squeaky, helping to excuse, and thereby enable, the Reactionaries. Posing kills.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:18:19 PM EST
    Posing kills. Then why do you bother, ras? It just makes you look like... well... a poser.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:20:04 PM EST
    ras-
    The Left is just now starting to realize that aligning themselves w/Islamic Reactionaries....
    Refining the new wingnut talking point. Your echo chamber is not needed here. BTW- you are the one who sounds like a 'Reactionary". A bigot too. What a surprise.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:22:29 PM EST
    Edger and Squeaky: Super job refuting his point.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:25:09 PM EST
    Super job... Yours too wile. And your point is?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:40:51 PM EST
    I want more cartoon's of muslims, the people who want to do this will do it the people who want to cut heads off will cut heads off, sad world isn't it?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#22)
    by ras on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 01:46:40 PM EST
    Squeaky, Islamic values such as the subjugation of women, the forced conversions, and the suppression of free speech are incompatible with Western values, at least those defined by classical liberalism. Which part of my recognition of the incompatibilities betrays bigotry, Squeaky? You can research all of the above w/in Islam if you don't believe me. Islam needs a Reformation if it is to live in harmony with others. Individual Muslims often do start to adopt Western values and this is to their credit. To continue the process - a continuation that might indeed bring about compatibility in time -, it needs to spread, but instead intimidation is used to move things back in the other direction, and that is what you are an enabler of. And all for the sake of a little moral preening. Get over yourself.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:02:28 PM EST
    Insolent condescencion is not worth responding to, Squeaky. Ras... get over yourself.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:04:58 PM EST
    ras-
    Islamic values such as the subjugation of women, the forced conversions, and the suppression of free speech are incompatible with Western values, at least those defined by classical liberalism
    Sounds like America to me. Forced Conversions??? Better watch out they may get you. Most Moslems are tolerant of other religions and cultures. Christianity is not and you certainly are not. Your notion of "muslims" is limited to faux news and Ann Coulter. I doubt that you have ever been an a room with a Muslim. As is obvious from your fearmingering statements you would probably wet your self if you saw one up close. Your view of the world reflects the wing-nut bigots and racists who proudly chant it's us agin' them and bring em on. Reactionary for sure. Are you a member of the John Birch society?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:29:50 PM EST
    ras, your perception of Islamic values is very distorted. The Islamofascists might agree with you, but that's about it. If you want to side with the Taliban, I guess that's your choice.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#26)
    by ras on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 02:52:51 PM EST
    punisher, Really? Then where are the Islamic moderates in the street? Best case: they want to, but they're intimidated by the Reactionaries. All the more reason, tho, to acknowledge the real diffs and incompatibilities, tell the Reactionaries to bend off (aot to the suck-up dhimmitude displayed above), and stop enabling them by taking their side against the West, uncritically accepting their easily-disproved propaganda. Don't be surprised, either, to find that the majority of Muslims are not on your side if you do. They could be, given time, but change must first start small and then grow. You really, really need to expand your reading.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 03:09:05 PM EST
    ras has obviously never met a muslim. Scary huh, bet you are a bedwetter. You cling on to steroetypes because it makes you feel superior. Tough talk but no action typical Chickenhawk. Go get those guys if you think America is at such grave risk. Oh right you have raised the stakes The West is at grave risk. Go fight em. The army sorely needs guys like you and America will be safer with you over there. The military will probably cure your bedwetting too.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 03:22:46 PM EST
    ras you better take a break, that last one dipped into sheer incoherence. Moderate islam in the street? Well my next door neighbor, for one. But here's a secular Islamist blogger with links to other Islamic moderates. I doubt that there's anything that I can say or point you to that will impact you're perspective, so rant on. I'll do my best to ignore you, though I may feel obliged to follow-up your silliness with links for the not silly people to check on.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 06:20:27 PM EST
    Punisher, from "The Arab Street Files" that you linked to above, comes the reaction of one Muslim to the barbaric beheading of Nick Berg. This is a comment that, though I agree with you that little is likely impact their perspective twisted as it is, anyone subscribing to the racist generalizations and bigoted views of Islam expressed in this thread would be wise to read:
    Thursday, May 13, 2004 Allahu Akhbar... posted by Arab Street Bum at 02:40 I just watched the video of Nick Berg's death. It was brutal and shocking, and reminded me of the equally horrible footage of Daniel Pearl's murder. The animals who carried out this killing were cowardly, hiding behind their ski masks, clutching automatic weapons while their boss read out some standard extremist drivel. Needless to say, every one of those people will have their skins burned off a thousand times in hell, not only for the murder comitted, but also for the cynical and twisted way it was carried out. The murderers' twisted perception of Islam is fully exposed by their method, and as a Muslim I am filled with rage that people could pervert our religion in such a way. Nick Berg, just like Daniel Pearl, was slaughtered in precisely the same manner as a sheep during the Eid-el-Adha (feast of the sacrifice). Laid on his side, Mr. Berg's throat was cut while his killers repeated over and over again Allahu-Akhbar, Allahu-Akhbar, Allahu-Akhbar. These madmen think that they are slaughtering a human being in a somehow "Islamic" or "Halal" way, that by doing it like this they are fullfilling God's wishes. Allahu-Akhbar is one of the most beautiful and powerful phrases that exist for the expression of Islamic faith. I am sure that Satan is filled with glee that his murderous demons have publicly used these words in such a way, while committing such a filthy act.


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 06:25:37 PM EST
    Squeaky - You seem to think that you are table captain. Trust me. You're not. BTW - You seem to be hung up on bed wetting and other loss of control..
    you would probably wet your self if you saw one up close. Scary huh, bet you are a bedwetter.
    Why the personal attacks? Is this why?
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    et al - Here is a very nice column pointing out some rather nasty issues that have just floated up. i.e. Why has the raical Moslem clerics decided to attack on this issue? Because they think they can win. And the moderates think so too. That's why they have stayed on the sidelines. Link

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 06:29:08 PM EST
    edger - The person writing this has my thanks. Just one small thing. Talk is cheap. See my note on the "moderates."

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 06:32:00 PM EST
    Talk is cheap I agree. I do read your posts, after all, though most are not worth responding to.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 07:17:04 PM EST
    ppj to the rescue... sound the trumpets. And he is waving his favorite flag. Typical of all the other lies and distortions he waves around here. I hope you keep it under your pillow with you along with all your other favorite quotes. No one seems to take you seriously here, wonder why. Table Captain?? A bit pretentious, no?. Got yourself all worked up, eh. More bigot links from moonie times I see. more bedwetters. keep the fear up enough and just a loud noise be enough to cause them to wet the bed. Boo!! they are coming to get you. A wet bed is a vote for the chimp. Great formula too bad it is only working for your wingnut friends. Although many of them are catching on and actually dissenting. Hmmm. '06 is becoming more scary than terror threats for them.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 07:24:38 PM EST
    Squeaky: More bigot links from moonie times I see His link to moonie time was worth one small bit of useless inormation, though. We now know where ras found his new word of the day: "dhimmitude". I guess the first paragrapgh was as far as ras could comprehend. ;-)

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 08:16:49 PM EST
    Squeaky - Pretentious? Uh, you might consider that it is you that are telling people that you disagree with that they shouldn't be here, start there own blog, etc. et al - To keep my reputation up, I offer you, Muslim Opinion Be Damned"

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 08:27:43 PM EST
    et al - To keep my reputation up, I offer you, Muslim Opinion Be Damned" Yes, I see you're determined to prove it after all:
    Posted by JimakaPPJ February 11, 2006 07:29 PM Talk is cheap
    Isn't it though.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#37)
    by Al on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:17:09 PM EST
    As someone not particularly interested in organized religion of any sort -- I think it's just a way of manipulating people -- I can't help but point out how much hatred and rage are let loose with the pretext of religion. You know what I think? I think that those of us who do not believe in any of this superstitious mumbo-jumbo that passes itself off as religion are probably a majority. And frankly, I for one am fed up. A plague on all their holy houses. It's not that hard to live in peace and make friends with the folks in the next village. And the Pope and the Imams and the Archbishops and all the rest of them should get real jobs. I mean, really. Religions have a long history of burning people, and torturing them and hanging them and chopping off various bits of their bodies, not to mention scaring the living daylights out of them with stories of eternal torture after death if they don't do exactly as they're told. Don't eat pork. Don't eat meat. Don't dance. Kneel on a little rug and pray four times a day. Face east. Face west. Look down. Cover your head. You can't come in here in shorts. Wear a long skirt. Do the sign of the cross. Wear a little round hat with a hairpin. Grow a beard. Don't cut your hair. Don't do anything after sunset. Celebrate the New Moon. Cover your face so no one can see you. Cut off the little fellow's foreskin. Sew up the little girl's vagina. Don't have sex. Well, have children. But don't enjoy sex. Don't use a condom. Don't use the pill. Don't watch those movies. Don't read those magazines. Don't swear. Don't look at girls like that. Don't look at boys like that. Kneel. Kiss the bishop's ring. Swear you will love and cherish this person until death do you part. Or else. Pray. Pray some more. Get up and pray. Pray before every meal. Pray before you go to sleep. Don't masturbate. Don't turn your back on the altar. Whisper. Count these beads while you pray. Don't read that book. Don't believe what Darwin says. The world was created in seven days, four thousand and seventy six years ago, starting on a Tuesday. First came the fish, then the birds, then the little creepy-crawlies. Then God turned on the lights. Or something. Don't write the word "God". Don't draw humans. Don't draw Muhammad. The Pope is infallible. Confess your sins. Go kneel in a box and whisper through the little window all your sins to the sex-starved priest on the other side. Say twenty-seven Hail Marys. Read the Bible. Listen to this tape with readings from the Bible. Watch this DVD with scenes from the Bible. Read the Quran. Over and over. Memorize the Quran. Go kill the heathens. Strap this bomb to yourself and blow yourself up. Give us money. Pay us tithes. Remember the Church in your will. The Church is poor. ---- Blaah. Go away. And take all those screaming brainwashed idiots with you.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 09:17:16 PM EST
    ppj-
    Squeaky - Pretentious? Uh, you might consider that it is you that are telling people that you disagree with that they shouldn't be here, start there own blog, etc.
    Gee ppj. You wanted to hijack the thread and thought everyone should ignore TL's Question, the subject of the thread. My response was not to tell you anything. I offered you a suggestion since you were so unhappy with all of us staying on topic.
    If you do not like the question and are dissatisfied with the crowd here, then go and leave us be, Start your own blog.
    Pretentious? more like sound advice. BTW- you have outdone yourself with the hogwash from your uberwingnut link. Mr. Epstein thinks Bush is too soft on Muslims. There are no moderate moslems as thay are all out to get us. From his web page he looks young and healthy enough to enlist, obviously a Chickenhawk warmonger. Others should fight and die to protect him from those scary Moslems. A bedwetter for sure. One of his ideas
    The proper response to Islamists and their supporters [many who comment at TL] is to identify them as our ideological and political enemies--and dispense justice accordingly. In the case of our militant enemies, we must kill or demoralize them
    By 'we' he must mean those other guys who he would gladly sent to do the killing whose life is not as important as his own. Disgusting. PPJ a Social Liberal ?? more like NSDAP is your crowd

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#39)
    by demohypocrates on Sat Feb 11, 2006 at 11:41:00 PM EST
    Al, You appear to be one of those weird people that are so aloof, so unaffected, so beyond religion, that you huddle over your typewriter for a half an hour to type out a reason why you are so aloof, why you are so unaffected, why you are so beyond religion. You are confused. Please find a spiritual leader.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#40)
    by Al on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:36:12 AM EST
    demohypocrates, I am not confused. I am fed up with the hypocrisy. Spirituality has nothing to do with it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:05:04 AM EST
    Radical religious zealots are 'bad news' irrespective of their particular affiliation. The reaction to the cartoons is obscene. Again I think it is the radical faction of Islam that is causing trouble, but it really sets a bad precendent in western people's minds. Radical Islam needs to wake up and embrace the 21st century.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#42)
    by bad Jim on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:51:03 AM EST
    The administration may actually be acting more consistently than other voices on the right in this matter. When Muslims rioted over Newsweek's revelation that the Koran had been abused in the course of interrogations of prisoners at Guantanamo, both the administration and the right-wing press condemned Newsweek for printing the news. In this case, the administration continues to admonish the press, while the media condemns the demonstrators instead. What we really need is a recaptioned still from "Brokeback Mountain", showing one of the guys on horseback: The Lord is my shepherd.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 02:19:40 AM EST
    squeaky, Islam is like the National socialists party, you can't live with it becuase it wants you dead, go ask 12 million people who were killed in camps ( 1933-1945 ) the only thing you can do with muslims like all religious nuts is to put the nuts on a island or shot the nuts where you find the nuts! and like Adolf Hitler said fight or die, sad world but you all did ask for it right? and by the way no people live in harmony with each other, sad to say its a human thing.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 05:30:20 AM EST
    They are a different color. They act different. They smell different. They talk different. They look different. They eat different. They worship a different god. They have different morals. They treat their women different. They treat their children different. They want everyone to think their way. They want everybody to live their way. They want everyone to follow their laws. They want to rule the world. They want to do what they want in the whole world. They attack everybody. They have no respect for life. They kill women and children indiscriminately. They are willing to die for what they want. They are inhuman. They are crazy. They are terrorists. They cannot be negotiated with. They are Muslims. They are Christians. They are Arabs. They are Black. They are Brown. They are Caucasian. They are Middle Easterners. They are Westerners. They are them. They are us. Do we have kill all of them to stop them from their fear and their hate?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 05:44:56 AM EST
    Squeaky - You seem to think that you are table captain. Trust me. You're not. Gotta link to back up your assertion, PPJ? Why the personal attacks? Is this why?
    you might consider that it is you that are telling people that you disagree with
    While you tell people you disagree with how they are objectively 'pro-terrorist' if they don't brown-nose Chimpy and give up their civil liberties so that we can win the GWOT or the GSAVE. Got it. And you're not the table capitan of TL, unless you got a certificate with a gold seal stating the same. You don't need JM's signature on it, that's the good news.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:07:28 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Good morning. Now, if you were interestd, you read the comments. If you were not then, but are now, re-read the comments. Squeaky - What does telling/claiming people are cowards and bedwetters have to do with the thread topic? And when you start telling people what to do/say, especially in an environment that is not yours, it is pretentious and is what referred to as trying to be "Table Captain."
    Refining the new wingnut talking point. Your echo chamber is not needed here. BTW- you are the one who sounds like a 'Reactionary". A bigot too. What a surprise.
    What you are trying to do is shut down someone else's freedom of speech with a false claim, an attack and an insult. As for my last link, I note that you don't answer the comments, just criticize the source. Oh well, typical Left Wing freedom of speech for those I agree with position. Or is it that you can't refute the points?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:57:35 AM EST
    Now, if you were interestd, you read the comments. Physician, heal thyself! You're telling us a lot here, PPJ, but not in a way that is necessarily advantageous for your 'cause'. Now, I realize that you found that name calling was necessary in the case of squeaky, because he called ras a bedwetter. To paraphrase what you've told many commentators here who have the gall to disagree with your BAK POV, you show your true colors here by engaging in an attempt to hijack this thread in your incoherent crusade against squeaky.
    What you are trying to do is shut down someone else's freedom of speech with a false claim, an attack and an insult.
    But he didn't do it effectively, like this:
    He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious.
    Link Anyway, if indeed squeaky is violating somebodys' First Amendment rights(which wouldn't be true in the case of a Canadian citizen like ras, but never mined), shouldn't you be bringing this fact to the attention of the proper authorities? As for my last link, I note that you don't answer the comments, just criticize the source. I note that you make irrelevant remarks from time to time in many of your posts. TTFN

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:40:17 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Ho hum. Squeaky - If you really want to argue the points of how we should respond to the cartoons, answer this. If we let the Moslem world dictate what we can print today, what will we let them dictate next? And if we agree that it is okay for them to riot, burn and kill everytime they are "insulted," do you understand that they will find more to be insulted over, and more to riot over? It is called "behavior reward." Al - You make some solid points, but the deal is this. In the west violence associated with religion has almost completely disappeared. Mostly because the culture of the west, rejected it. That has not been the case of what we call "radical" moslems.
    A LEADING imam in the mosque where the July 7 bombers worshipped has hailed their terrorist attack on London as a "good" act in a secretly taped conversation with an undercover reporter. Hamid Ali, spiritual leader of the mosque in West Yorkshire, said it had forced people to take notice when peaceful meetings and conferences had no impact. He also praised the bombers as the "children" of Abdullah al-Faisal, a firebrand Muslim cleric, who was convicted of inciting murder and racial hatred in 2003. Ali revealed that the leader of the London suicide bombers had attended sermons in Yorkshire by al-Faisal and tapes of al-Faisal's teachings were still circulating within his mosque.
    et al - This is clear. They had a problem. What to do? Bomb and kill people. And this "religious Moslem leader" is endorsing their actions. We can't deal with people who hold such beliefs.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 08:56:29 AM EST
    Posted by JimakaPPJ February 11, 2006 07:29 PM The person writing this has my thanks. Just one small thing. Talk is cheap.
    Isn't it though...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#50)
    by Al on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 09:38:09 AM EST
    PPJ:
    You make some solid points, but the deal is this. In the west violence associated with religion has almost completely disappeared. Mostly because the culture of the west, rejected it.
    PPJ, the president you love heads the most violent organization on the planet, in the name of Jesus. Just because you're not burning flags in the street doesn't mean you are more peaceful than the Muslims you despise. You're doing your bit, right here. It's just a difference in style, that's all. If what you do represents the "culture of the west", whatever that is, I don't want to have anything to do with it.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:05:59 AM EST
    Al - You are making some false assumpations. I am not a Repub, or a conservative and I don't love any politican, much less Bush. As you probably know I call myself, for lack of a better description, a social liberal. I do support Bush in his approach to national defense. You write:
    Just because you're not burning flags in the street doesn't mean you are more peaceful than the Muslims you despise. You're doing your bit, right here. It's just a difference in style, that's all.
    So you define demands to kill cartoonists, burning buildings and killing people, compared to writing on a blog a "difference in style? Wow. Well yeah. Indeed. Sure enough. Of course that is an understatement beyond compare. As for violence, yes we are a violent society, and yes the US military can provide all the violence most people want. But it takes a lot more to set it off than a few cartoons - if it did, the ME would have been dramtically realigned years ago - and a some preachers ranting and raving. Al, your problem is that those you try and excuse by preaching "tolerance," are rapidly becoming intolerant to the point they can't be ignored. Be prepared to be further embarassed by their actions. edger - So you can't refute the points. What's new about that? Got a song that says, "I don't know?"

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:17:59 AM EST
    Jim: In the west violence associated with religion has almost completely disappeared The violence against women in the name of religion (the anti-choice movement) is still around, still violent, and wants the right to exercise the brutal violence of illegal abortion or forced pregnancy/childbirth against all women. Bush's Global Gag Rule is an act of religiously-inspired violence that assists in the death of nearly 80 000 women a year. Violence associated with religion is still around, and getting dangerously near to power.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:21:18 AM EST
    We can't deal with people who hold such beliefs. That's what you think of as "leading by example" is it? Talk is cheap. You define yourself very clearly. Got a song that says, "I don't have a clue?"

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:41:26 AM EST
    Jesurgislac - Did you see the "almost?" But, instead of agreeing that the actions of the Moslems who are inciting riots are wrong, you want to discuss "right to life" vs "right to choose." How much "right" to anything does women have in the radical moislem world? Date the wrong man and their brother kills them for shaming the family. Well, at least they won't need an abortion. Yessir, that's a fine comparsion you have there. Yeah, we should buy into that by not protesting and condemning their actions. Uh huh. Sure. Yes indeedy. edger - OK. Clue me in. Tell me how we can deal with them. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:45:03 AM EST
    edger - OK. Clue me in. Some things are impossible after all. Huh? who woulda thunk?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:53:59 AM EST
    edger - So you have no answer. Okay. No surprise there. et al - Anyone want to answer the question? How can we deal with these people?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:54:23 AM EST
    Jesurgislac - Did you see the "almost?" And you dismiss the deaths of 80 000 women worldwide as "almost"? These people who believe in religiously-inspired violence against women have President George W. Bush on their side, signing the Global Gag Rule and trying to ban late-term abortions even when the woman's health is at stake - and you dismiss the President's support as "almost"?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 10:58:43 AM EST
    How can we deal with these people? The religious fanatics currently in power in the US, dealing in violence and intolerance? Vote them out while it's still possible.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:41:08 AM EST
    ppj-
    If we let the Moslem world dictate what we can print today, what will we let them dictate next? And if we agree that it is okay for them to riot, burn and kill everytime they are "insulted," do you understand that they will find more to be insulted over, and more to riot over? It is called "behavior reward."
    Just substitute White, Christian, Jew , Black, Asian, American, etc for the word Moslem. You will see how dangerous generalizing the motives of a few to the whole is. Hitler convinced many that Jews and other groups were decadent and a threat to all who had 'wholesome' values. They needed to be exterminated. Thank god he is not running the show. His ideological heirs are though, and you are buying the crap. lock stock and barrel.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 11:46:29 AM EST
    Jesurgislac - First, neither of us have any idea as to the exact number. Secondly, what does that have to do with the fact that under Shari law Roe v Wade wouldn't have a snowball's chance? Perspective and context. What a concept.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#61)
    by Al on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:08:32 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Al - You are making some false assumpations. I am not a Repub, or a conservative and I don't love any politican, much less Bush. As you probably know I call myself, for lack of a better description, a social liberal. I do support Bush in his approach to national defense.
    Please. I have read your stuff before, you know.
    As for violence, yes we are a violent society, and yes the US military can provide all the violence most people want.
    There you go.
    But it takes a lot more to set it off than a few cartoons
    It takes oil, and dreams of empire.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:11:30 PM EST
    Jim, One time when visiting Tehran I had an interesting conversation with a woman I met there. She made a couple of interesting points about the concept of "freedom". One of the ones that stuck with me was the way she contrasted "theoretical" freedoms with real world freedoms. She pointed out that, sure, in the US women are theroetically free to do whatever they like, in so far as the law does not restrict their actions. But she pointed out that freedom from legal interference is not the only definition of freedom. To illustrate, she asked me how many American women would feel free to walk alone down a deserted street late at night. Sure, the government won't stop them, and so in that sense they are "free" but the reality is of course a different matter. In Iran, a woman can walk alone anywhere she likes at any time, day or night and can be 100% sure that she will be safe. Street crime is almost non-existent. In Iran, (where,incidentally, a very large proportion of women occupy senior posts in government admin, corporations and universities - a legacy of the virtual elimination of a whole generation of men during the Iran/Iraq war), women are essentially free to do many things that are effectively impossible in the "Land of the Free". Now, I'm not suggesting that these societies are in any way superior - institutional violence against women (and men) does exist. I was told that it's 60 lashes for both the womand AND the man if they're caught in a compromising situation. What I'm saying is that, firstly, I suspect you have precisely ZERO direct experience of the societies of which you are so critical, and so I thought this conversation might benefit from what little experience I have. And secondly, I wanted to point out that some people might consider that the freedom to get attacked and raped whilst walking down a public street is one "freedom" that they can do without.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:17:58 PM EST
    How can we deal with these people? This question has been asked and answered repeatedly in many threads over many months, for at least a long as I've been here and I imagine for much longer. In my time here Jim's rejected every answer or suggestion that's been posted by anyone, whenever he's raised the question, or ignored every answer or suggestion posted in response to anyone else asking the question. As Cymro noted yesterday:
    I see that PPJ is back here again, demonstrating his continual inability to grasp the logic of other people's posts, and his preference for engaging people in irrelevant and time-wasting arguments. Attempting to counter one of his posts with logic and relevance only generates another inevitable round of his distractions. Get smart, don't reply.
    Anyone would think Jim is here for no other reason than (gasp!) trolling with "irrelevant and time-wasting" posts that contribute nothing to discussions here, has no idea how to carry on any kind of constructive dialog or sensible conversation or debate, and therefore can only bait to get any response at all from anyone. To rephrase the question that Jim asked: How can we deal with people like Jim? Well, there is one way. I agree with Cymro, and as I said to Jim upthread when he pontificated that "Talk is cheap":
    I agree. I do read [his] posts, after all, though most are not worth responding to...
    ...and any response to him in future is an utter waste of time. ----- My apologies to everyone for this long OT post.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:52:53 PM EST
    Here is a glimpse into a moslem household in Baghdad. I do not think that ther are thinking too much about the 'cartoons'. They are thinking, on a daily basis, about the brutal mentality of those involved in initiating the cartoon contest, and those involved in killing, jailing and torturing innocent muslims with alarming regularity, just becaue they have the power to do so. PPJ- your "intellectual bodyguard" Chickenhawk coward extradionare Alex Epstein would


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 12:58:54 PM EST
    PPJ- your "intellectual bodyguard" Chickenhawk, coward extradionare, and bedwetter, Alex Epstein would handle the family in Baghdad linked to above more harshly then what did happen to them.
    The proper response to Islamists and their supporters [many who comment at TL] is to identify them as our ideological and political enemies--and dispense justice accordingly. In the case of our militant enemies, we must kill or demoralize them.
    Birds of a feather....

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    I think we should give the Muslims equal time so to speak and run Piss Christ in cartoon form in major red state papers for a few weeks. I also have to laugh particularly at ras and ppj's transparent racist attempts at demonization as a precurser to invasion ; this from the faction that needs people to believe the ACLU and gays caused Katrina in order to have any power at all.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:23:21 PM EST
    Their have been more than enough anti-Semitic cartoons that run daily in the Jordanian, Iranian and all the other Arab press, yet the majority of Arab Moslems go crazy when their prophet is blasphemed. Typical Moslem double standards. They can criticize or blaspheme, but you cannot. To all who think Islam is tolerant or peaceful, maybe you can explain to me why Saudi Arabia don't have any Christian churches or Jewish synagogues? Or why the penalty for being such is death? Those actions are in direct conflict with the definitions of the words "tolerant" and "peaceful". So at lest the Saudi version of Islam can be anything but.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:33:51 PM EST
    Ian, Good post about your conversation with the woman you met in Tehran. The attitude she embodies that you describe, and her contrasting for you theoretical and real world freedoms have been my experience in interacting with Iranian people and with Muslim peoples in general. Many of the merchants, retail business owners and professionals (doctors, accountants, etc.) in my city are Iranian, Pakistani and Indian, and I've found them to be extremely honest, respectful and tolerant of other people. Much more tolerant, in fact, than many Christians, and for the most part greatly pained by the actions of the fanatical pseudo religious leaders in their home countries as well as of nuts like al-Zarqawi, whom they view much in the same way we view people like Pat Robertson, and they are for the most part embarassed, disgusted and shamed that these people recieve so much publicity and are assumed by ignorant pseudo christians to represent mainstream Islam.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:41:18 PM EST
    Jondee-
    I think we should give the Muslims equal time so to speak...
    I do not have a TV but I am not surprised by the point Juan Cole makes here regarding the absence of coverage in the US of this:
    Breaking news: The United Iraqi Alliance, a coalition of Shiite fundamentalist parties, has chosen Ibrahim Jaafari to be prime minister of Iraq for the next four years.... I scanned the US cable news channels and only CNN Headline News was making much of this development, and then only briefly. It raises the question for me of whether US television news has unspoken racist undertones. There are exceptions. .... But on the hour-long t.v. news magazines, or even just with the anchors during the day, we never see so much as an extended interview with Ibrahim Jaafari. Isn't that weird? The real UK BBC will do an hour-long interview with an Iraqi cabinet minister like Ali Allawi. But our television news almost never talks to anyone among important Iraqi politicians, with the possible exception of the Kurdish politician Jalal Talabani, the mostly ceremonial president of Iraq. Aren't the Iraqi politicians who have come to power in the celebrated purple-thumb Iraqi elections worth talking to? Don't Americans care what they think? ..... And, with all these cable channels and satellite capabilities, why can't we see the real BBC in America? I mean, I can watch French and Italian and Egyptian and Lebanese channels. I'm not even being offered by my satellite company the possibility of the real BBC. Isn't that weird? There are so many weird things. The upshot is that if you don't have Joe Scarborough's profile, you don't get seen or heard much on US television.


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 01:50:18 PM EST
    Squeaky: I am not surprised by the point Juan Cole makes here regarding the absence of coverage in the US You're right, it should not be surprising at all... Cheryl Seal Reports:
    For years now, the corporate media has controlled the dissemination of information in the US via mainstream routes (newspapers, TV, radio). It has used its control to promote agendas that pumped up corporate profits and power and put corporate toadies into office - from Congressfolk to regulatory commissions to the presidency. It also "erased" any information that might be detrmimental to the corporate machine, whether it was images of protestors at Bush's inauguration, critical details of the Enron case, or the holes in the Iraq WMD story. It presented rightwing zealot reporters and commentators as moderate or "fair and balanced," while at the same time promoting the myth of the nonexistent "liberal media."


    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#71)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 02:20:32 PM EST
    How can we deal with these people? For starters, stop bombing them. Then stop cheating them. Then stop impoverishing 95% of them to rip off their natural resources. Stop building bases in their countries. Stop polluting their air and water with uranium and infectious organisms. Stop destroying their crops. Basically leave them the F**k alone, no matter how your precious western sensibilities are ruffled by their politically incorrect (you say) treatment of women. Maybe, just MAYBE, they are smart enough to figure those concepts out all on their own. Ya think? Just a suggestion. Took me like 30 seconds to figure it out. It's not f***ing rocket science. But it will require quite a bit of changes in our "military industrial congressional complex". And that will be violent. Otherwise just sit back and watch the decline. Oh yeah, and better find God soon so you can join the rapture.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 02:25:12 PM EST
    Ian wrote:
    In Iran, a woman can walk alone anywhere she likes at any time, day or night and can be 100% sure that she will be safe. Street crime is almost non-existent.
    So we go from 100% to "almost" in eight words. And I hope she doesn't have an affair:
    Tehran's despots recently hanged a 16-year-old girl. What is it in the Arab-Islamic culture that breeds the demonization and dehumanization of the female? FP: Ms. Zand-Bonazzi let me begin with you. Tell us a bit about the circumstances behind Atefeh's execution. Zand-Bonazzi: Well, sadly this young woman was hung in public charged with adultery. The man with whom she had allegedly had sexual relations with was also arrested but he only received 75 lashes apparently and then freed!
    Link Sure sounds like a paradise for women to me. (That's sarcasm.) As for your attempted insult and attitude... I haven't been in Iran; I have had no reason to. I have traveled through out Europe and some of the ME and some other wonderful spots. Moscow, during the Cold War was also a very safe society; I will never forget how clean the streets were. Is Tehran also a very clean city? Oh well, as an Iranian Jewish friend of mine put it when I asked him about the possibility of the "moderates" taking control: My country is so free I left it. BTW - Can you be specific about those things that a woman in the US can't do? I know women truck drivers, lawyers, sales executives, engineers, star coaches, doctors, farmers, winery owners, beer salespeople... poor woman, rich woman, but no women Indian chiefs...and certainly no Moslem Madonna.. But then perhaps you think that a plus. But none of this has anything to do with the fact the radical Moslems are demanding that we adhere to Shari law while they ignore ours. Heck. OBL explained it very clearly.
    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    So, no matter what we do, there can be no quid pro quo with radical Islam and its minions. Al - And don't forget planes flying into buildings and boats into ships peacefully at harbor. That stuff does kinda pis* us off. edger - Why apologize? You have again shown us that you don't present arguments, just attacks on those who disagree with you, or who you dislike. And you say "how we deal with them" has been presented many times? Well, how about some links? edger, OBL's own words, and the many other actions of the radical Moslems prove my point, and you can't answer it. As I said. They are rioting over the cartoons because 5 months after they were published the leaders think they can win. And with the attitude I see in the press, and in many blogs, they can. Consider this from the Boston Phoenix via American Future.
    There are three reasons not to publish the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed with his turban styled as a bomb . . . and the other images that have sparked violent protests and deaths throughout Europe, the Middle East, West Asia, and Indonesia: 1) Out of fear of retaliation from the international brotherhood of radical and bloodthirsty Islamists who seek to impose their will on those who do not believe as they do. This is, frankly, our primary reason for not publishing any of the images in question. Simply stated, we are being terrorized, and as deeply as we believe in the principles of free speech and a free press, we could not in good conscience place the men and women who work at the Phoenix and its related companies in physical jeopardy. As we feel forced, literally, to bend to maniacal pressure, this may be the darkest moment in our 40-year publishing history.
    You know, in our universities the cry is "Publish or perish!" In the Islamic world the radicals have changed that to "Publish and perish." So what is your solution, edger? Squeaky writes:
    Just substitute White, Christian, Jew , Black, Asian, American, etc for the word Moslem
    Well you can do that. But the problem is none of the recommended substitutes are demanding the artists be killed, rioting in the streets upon command of the Imam in charge, burning, etc. BTW - Iraq's problem was that it had a leader that was put in place by the country's culture, and that culture never over threw him. It is sad, but they just didn't. Most likely because they didn't want to be fed through an industrial size paper shredder, feet first. So the war happened. Maybe, just maybe, democracy will take root and start a reformation in the ME. Time to play. See ya.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#73)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 02:45:56 PM EST
    ppj-
    Well you can do that. But the problem is none of the recommended substitutes are demanding the artists be killed, rioting in the streets upon command of the Imam in charge, burning, etc.
    Guess you have been out of touch. Ever hear of the JDL, IRA, Kach, Kahane Chai to name a few. For something more close to home, your home that is:
    What is the White Order of Thule? What is the Creativity movement (WCOTC)? What is the National Alliance? What is Hammerskin Nation? What is Aryan Nations?
    These guys and gals don't need a cartoon to justify their killing and destruction. They just do it because they are White and full of hate. link

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 03:02:48 PM EST
    Remember Dred Scott? No, not that one, this one:
    When still a student at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, (Dred) Scott inflamed patriotic sensibilities with his incendiary, now-historic 1989 installation, What Is the Proper Way to Display a U.S. Flag?, which invited people to step on the flag as they responded to the question on a ledger. He was personally denounced by President George Bush Sr., and his installation was banned by the U.S. Senate for desecration.
    ppj: none of the recommended substitutes are demanding the artists be killed,... please notify this guy, cuz he didn't get the memo: But for the rest of you pinko bastards, you burn my flag, and i'll burn your ass. Many of you have already been marked, and we know who you are.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 03:35:35 PM EST
    Jim, reading your posts no one would know that the ruler of Iraq responsible for killing most Iraqis in the shortest space of time isn't Saddam Hussein: it's George W. Bush. Nor have you answered the point that religiously-inspired US-sponsored violence against women kills nearly 80 000 women worldwide each year. End the global gag rule.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 06:17:23 PM EST
    Jesurgislac: the ruler of Iraq responsible for killing most Iraqis in the shortest space of time: George W. Bush. The gag rule goes much farther than that. Bush has said that the number of Iraqi civilian deaths attributable to the war is about 30,000. One more "statistic" to add to his lies. No big deal though. After all, they're not really "real" people are they? Just "collateral damage", people put through George's "industrial sized people shredder" and as Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt has suggested to Iraqis, we can just "change the channel" if reality is inconvenient: The Real Iraq Body Count
    In 2004, the highly respected British medical journal "Lancet" reported the results of an epidemiological study...of post-invasion mortality in Iraq...the researchers estimated that the total number of deaths that can be attributed to the invasion and occupation may have been as high as 194,000, with a conservative estimate set at about 100,000. 2005 was far more violent in many areas of Iraq than 2004...it can be safely assumed that the number of civilian occupation deaths in the nearly 15 months since the study has increased by at least another 50,000 (and this is conservative) given the trend identified in the study. This means that the total body count is now at least 150,000, but could be as high as nearly 250,000. That's up to ONE-QUARTER OF A MILLION LIVES.
    The Lancet Sudy (PDF)

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#77)
    by Johnny on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:22:20 PM EST
    Nor have you answered the point that religiously-inspired US-sponsored violence against women kills nearly 80 000 women worldwide each year. End the global gag rule.
    He won't. I am still not surprised at the (far less than 1/10 of 1%) muslims response, and for the narrow minded who equate lack of surprise with acceptance and even encouragement, let it be known that I have never endorsed their response. I just sit here and watch people all agape at their response, and watch them wonder in amazement at their response when we know full well radicals will . Religiously insired violence happens right here, under our noses. It is just easier to point to brown people and say "They don't live like us, they must be made to live like us!"

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#78)
    by Johnny on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:23:40 PM EST
    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#79)
    by Johnny on Sun Feb 12, 2006 at 07:24:43 PM EST
    http://www.x-grrrls.com/index.php?entryPage=/articles/index.php?cat=1 My link formatting is working imprperly for some reason...

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 05:28:10 AM EST
    Squeaky - I'll worry about the Jewish group when they start flying airplanes into buildings. Nice try at changing the subject. et al - You are incapable of understanding the difference between people killed/wounded in war and peopled killed by their own government. punisher - Obtuseness doesn't become you. As with Squeaky's threat, I don't worry about marginalized groups, and these aren't "religious leaders." Plus I don't remember buildings burning, foregin embasssis attacked... Grasping at straws, eh? et al - As the links I have provided show, we have a problem that is centered in and around various Imams. When we fail to identify and condemn these people's actions and let the radicals feed off their comments, we run off the moderates who probably would support us if they had the chance. But when we don't defend ourselves, why should they think we will defend them for standing up?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:20:16 AM EST
    SSDD with PPJ.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:28:15 AM EST
    ppj: punisher - Obtuseness doesn't become you. I'll pretend you didn't do that. ppj: As with Squeaky's threat, I don't worry about marginalized groups, Nice for you, and I can understand why you wouldn't. But the reason that flag-burning is relevent is that it is inciting to a great many Americans, not just fringe elements, though the wing-nuts do express themselves more directly than most of us would. We have our own "fighting words," even if they are not religious ones.
    A state statute that prohibits flag-burning as a direct attack "likely to provoke the average person to retaliation, and thereby cause a breach of the peace" may pass constitutional muster. This narrow and rather amorphous exception to free- speech protection was recognized in the 1942 decision Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.
    ppj: and these aren't "religious leaders." These who? And so what?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:30:39 AM EST
    ppj-changing the subject? ha ha ho ho tee hee

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 06:33:30 AM EST
    the link for the above quote.

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 13, 2006 at 07:38:55 AM EST
    Jim claimed: You are incapable of understanding the difference between people killed/wounded in war and peopled killed by their own government. Still no response to the religiously-inspired violence against women of the global gag rule, Jim? When we fail to identify and condemn these people's actions and let the radicals feed off their comments, we run off the moderates who probably would support us if they had the chance. Where have you identified and condemned the actions of the religious right in the US?

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 12:29:13 PM EST
    Now what in heavens name would the necons have to gain by the Danish newspaper publishing anti-muslim cartoons?
    So, let's look at the guy who started this whole cartoon escapade. He's Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of the Danish newspaper. In all of the Lexis-Nexis database of stories from the American media on the Mohammed cartoons, there is absolutely no mention of the fact that Rose is a close confederate of arch-Islamophobe Daniel Pipes. In
    Who is Pipes besides an idol of ppj?
    He wants the utter military obliteration of the Palestinians.... Pipes' frequent outbursts of racism -- designed to toss gasoline on the neo-cons' lust for a wholesale conflict of cultures -- earned him a Bush nomination to the U.S. Institute of Peace, a congressionally funded think tank. Rose came to America to commune with Pipes in 2004, and it was after that meeting the cartoon gambit materialized.
    emphasis mine link

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 25, 2006 at 01:12:25 PM EST
    For all those who decried the barbarity of those uncivilized Muslims, looks like the Christians are showing their historic penchant for violence.
    AN enraged mob of Nigerian Christian youths has slaughtered dozens of Muslims in two days of rioting in the southern city of Onitsha.
    So much for turning ones cheek. linked text

    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 03:58:09 AM EST
    Re: Anti-Muslim Cartoon Outrage, Continued (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Oct 02, 2006 at 05:06:12 AM EST