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Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread

Bin Laden has released a tape saying there will be another attack but offering up the possibility of a truce. The U.S. has rejected the truce.

Some experts say the tape will boost support for Bush. Why? Won't it just show the ineptitude of his Administration in finding Bin Laden and its misjudgement in expending resources, energies and lives on Iraq?

Update: Excerpts from the tape are here. [hat tip Patriot Daily.]

This is an open thread, all topics, not just bin Laden.

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  • Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:42:51 AM EST
    This is good news for Bush: First, you gotta prove it's OBL speaking. Me, I doubt it. If he wanted to prove he's alive, all he's gotta do, all he's ever had to do, is recite some current event, such as by referring to a specific speech by someone else that took place recently. he never does. Second, he offers a ME truce. Regardless if it's really OBL or just one of his buddies speaking, AQ is acknowledging that they have lost in Iraq and the US has won. Woo hoo! So, all in all, very good news for Bush, and that's not even counting that Dems have destroyed their reputation for at least a generation on national security, so any reminder of the threats out there is generically good for the Republicans, including Bush.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:46:16 AM EST
    Why is this guy not yet dead or captured?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:49:59 AM EST
    Anybody else feel like the level of discourse here has been down around the third-grade level lately? Even after TL's crack-down?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:50:49 AM EST
    Because the administration needs a boogeyman to maintain and increase their power, pun. I mean, if 9/11 didn't happen, Bush was a one-term baby. Bush owes Bin Ladin his political life.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:58:07 AM EST
    Punisher, Why is this guy not yet dead or captured? How do you know he's not? Seriously. It's in AQ's interest not to acknowledge that the US got their leader. Most of AQ's leaders derive their authority thru OBL; if he's seen as dead, their internal power struggles explode. It's in the US's interest not to make a martyr of OBL; let him go out w/a whimper instead of a bang. We haven't had any real proof he's alive for years, just grainy videos and audiotapes that conspicuously avoid saying anything that would settle the q. We can't be certain, but it looks more likely than not that OBL is dead. We'll get final confirmation when Hollywood produces Boys From Brazil II.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 11:59:24 AM EST
    Regardless if it's really OBL or just one of his buddies speaking, AQ is acknowledging that they have lost in Iraq and the US has won
    of course it means nothing of the kind. from the article. the speaker says
    We have no objection to responding to this with a long-term truce based on fair conditions," the speaker said. "We do not mind offering you a truce that is fair and long-term... so we can build Iraq and Afghanistan... there is no shame in this solution because it prevents wasting of billions of dollars.
    [emphasis mine] I am sure that the "rair" part would include withdrawl of all US troops from the ME. Note it is not the intent of the insurgents to win militarily. Their strategy is the same as the US backed OBL used against the Russians in Afghanistan, i.e. drag it out and put enormous financial pressure on the US until either the US is bankrupt or the US gives up and gets out.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by eric on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    I would accept the truce. We 1) get our troops out of Iraq, and 2) don't get attacked. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:10:30 PM EST
    What the heck exactly does the Dem party stand for? This AM on NPR I heard some Dem CA State senator explain why we need to crack down on crystal meth more, yet most of the Dem folks on TL think drugs should be legal. Then, in the next soundbite, another Dem lawmaker says he's introducing a bill that requires all Registered Sex Offenders to wear GPS tracking devices, yet this site doesn't even want a RSO list. Or is this site just way, way to the left of your average Dem?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:10:43 PM EST
    The reason this will help Bush is that it will trigger the fear reflex in all those who have been willing to be led by their fear thus far. Reasonable people conclude that Bush is a failure; but most responses to Bush are not based on reason.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:12:30 PM EST
    I would accept the truce.
    eric, how about this truce - you don't post on TL anymore, and I won't either.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:12:54 PM EST
    Oops, tricked ya!

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Al on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:26:22 PM EST
    What if the CIA produced the tape?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 12:33:36 PM EST
    What the heck exactly does the Dem party stand for?
    Beats the heck out of me. If I had to guess, the party stands for the party's continued existence. Same for the Republican party.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    roy: Anybody else feel like the level of discourse here has been down around the third-grade level lately? Some days, yes...

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 01:14:31 PM EST
    kdog and j, true words.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 01:16:39 PM EST
    I do think this will play well for the execs. When a man like this offers a truce you gotta wonder what gives. First to mind is that he has a weak hand and is playing a bluff. It doesn’t matter though. OBL isn’t capable of delivering a truce, he can’t even leash Zarqawi.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:19:42 PM EST
    We can't be certain, but it looks more likely than not that OBL is dead. Based on what empirical data?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:22:58 PM EST
    Al. You beat me to it. I wouldn't want to bet the farm, but the CIA has tried some pearlers in the past. Bush could get his arse handed to him for all his high crimes and misdemeanours, a nice little diversion if ever there was one. I'm loath to jump in for a conspiracy, but why an audio tape rather than the usual video.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:26:32 PM EST
    from AmericaBlog, via TPM:
    Rep. Louise Slaughter is saying that DeLay and Frist had staffers day-trading out of their offices, working on inside info from lobbyists and legislators.


    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:35:31 PM EST
    Randy Paul, Like I said, it's not empirically certain, but the fact that OBL has not definitively established that he's alive in order to reasssure his followers, when it would take, like, one sentence to do so, is quite the hint. Even that one video he released was of such poor quality, and his lips didn't always seem to match his voice, that it made it look more likely, not less, that he's alive. But it's all probabilities. And if he was indeed splattered all over Tora Bora, it will prob never be proven. Ten years from now, people will swear they saw him hiding in Bolivia.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:36:51 PM EST
    MSNBC- CIA confirms tape as authentic.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 02:41:40 PM EST
    AL wrote:
    What if the CIA produced the tape?
    Hey, works for me. Why we know we didn't go the moon. That was as fake as a Hillary speech. No doubt about it. Shot in Hollywood.... YeeeeeHawwww!

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 03:00:16 PM EST
    amen, Jim.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 03:03:50 PM EST
    et al - For OBL to bring up "truce" is proof positive that he knows he can't win. BTW - We now know the missile hit was very productive. James Taranto notes that everyone thought it was good news when they believed it was not. Why am I not surprised? eric wrote:
    I would accept the truce. We 1) get our troops out of Iraq, and 2) don't get attacked. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.
    eric, you must know better. OBL's words from a CNN interview. Read the TERMS:
    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    Simple. Let Moslems do as they please and we'll let you alone. Simpler. Buy your prayer rug and get a Koran.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 03:21:13 PM EST
    PPJ: For OBL to bring up "truce" is proof positive that he knows he can't win. I disagree. It might just mean that he has a flexible set of criteria for claiming victory. One could argue that calling for a truce was a clever move on his part. If we reject it (which he expects), then he can say forever more that he offered peace and we rejected it. To potential followers, this might be a relevant point. If we accept a truce, which of course we won't, but if we did, it'd be a huge victory for him. Bush said in 12/05:
    We are in Iraq today because our goal has always been more than the removal of a brutal dictator; it is to leave a free and democratic Iraq in its place.
    His stated goals have made it harder for us to claim victory, and more difficult for us to achieve it.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 03:47:53 PM EST
    What's up with Ray Nagin? Did he enroll in the Pat Robertson school for knuckleheads or what? When I hear someone explain their position with "that's what God wants", I run in the opposite direction.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:03:44 PM EST
    Punisher, I disagree. It might just mean that he has a flexible set of criteria for claiming victory. So did the Black Knight in Monty Python.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:07:32 PM EST
    I think OBL is dead. I have no proof but it would seem to me it would be to his advantage to be seen in a video with some sort of current item, perhaps a relatively recent newspaper with a date line. It would put a thumb in the eye of the US and rally his side and raise thier morale, especially after Pakistani reports of a few key al Queda figures being killed in that Pakistan raid last Friday. I do think that it is to the administration's and the CIA's advantage to keep this 'boogie-man' alive. As far as trusting the CIA's analysis of anything? At this point it is far from a 'slam-dunk'. But in the end who the heck knows?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:13:27 PM EST
    Let's assume that it is Osama on the tape (yeah, I know the CIA says it is, but we all know how accurate they are): Why has he lost his love of live-action videotapes? Prior to December 2001, Osama used to release a new videotape to Al Jazeera every few months. Since then it's only been audiotapes. And this at a time when he could rally the faithful by showing that he is in fact still alive and still fighting. I have my doubts about this tape, and about his ability to deliver a truce even if the whole thing is legitimate. The idea that Osama can just say "stop" and terrorists all over the world will listen is on par with the idea that Padilla had to fill out an application to join.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:19:55 PM EST
    Scott McLellan said just yesterday that we will take care of OBL at a time and place of our choosing. So choose already. What's the hang-up? Also on Ed Schultz's show, he mentioned that there is no one in charge of hunting down Bin Laden. Imagine that! The search just runs itself! Poorly, I might add.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:22:19 PM EST
    ras: So did the Black Knight in Monty Python. LOL! Good joke (though poor comparison)

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:28:08 PM EST
    Lefties, Is this the Left's position now? Or is Hillary looking more and more like a one-dimensional triangle?
    Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton Wednesday suggested she would back a military strike on Iran if that country's radical Islamic government attempts to build nuclear weapons.


    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:28:13 PM EST
    It's just a flesh wound!!

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:37:57 PM EST
    ras, I think Hillary is speaking for herself, and obviously positioning herself as macho enough for the presidency. And pardon me for doubting the POV of the linked article, but I don't think her statement positions her anywhere but to the LEFT of Bush, since I don't think you'll find anyone who believes 1) Bush doesn't think military action is going to be necessary and 2) that Hillary would use force more quickly than Dubya would. Perhaps she just TALKS a tougher game right now, or did that night. Perhaps I'm wrong and she's a hawk in dove's business suits. But liberals don't follow in lockstep with Hillary Clinton any more than anyone else. Is that big news?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:38:47 PM EST
    ras: the Left's position It sounds like Hillary's position. "The Left" didn't reach a consensus at their last meeting. Fortunately they'll be meeting at Imo's Pizza on Manchester tonight at 8.30 to bring it to a vote.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 04:52:21 PM EST
    eric-
    Sounds like a win-win situation to me.
    Yeah except for Bush family's (et.al) bank accounts. All the war $$$ is making some richer while increasing others poverty, sickness and death. Coincidentally the Repugs are the only ones in Carlyle and also the ones turning down truce offers. Look what "the war" has done for Bush. No war, no unlimited power..I think we will be at war for a very long time as long as the decision-makers are making a killing off of it.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:04:01 PM EST
    Dadler, I would never expect unanimity from the Left, the Right, or anyone else. But usually, albeit w/exceptions, there's relatively broad agreement on major issues. The Iraq War would be an example. And given the consistent tone set by the Left on that and similar topics, Hillary's position would seem to put her at odds with most of her party. Sure she's just playing macho, but it's still an interesting barometer of whether or not the Left is changing its position, or at least, whether or not the Left feels belligerence (Hillary supports an out and out invasion) against Iran is warranted, whereas the same against Iraq was not. Just curious as to how widely accepted, or not, Hillary's posn is within the Left. Let's take a sampling. All Lefties, I would agree with an invasion of Iran myself, if necessary, and if other options fail (e.g. a coup, which'd be my first choice if it could be pulled off). Would you? [For sake of arg, let's presume the obvious: that Iran is creating nuke weapons of its own and that it would destroy the US and other countries of the West if it thought it could get away with it. I.E. we'll take them at their word.]

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by glanton on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:30:09 PM EST
    Ah, ya gotta love Jim's reliance on the WSJ for news. Homophobia and racism would be pehorative terms in some circles, but they are just "different perspectives" on the editorial page of the WSJ. Anyway, Jim writes
    We now know the missile hit was very productive. James Taranto notes that everyone thought it was good news when they believed it was not.
    Yeah, it was a little inconvenient what with the women and children and peasants and all, but since they were little brown people that don't matter much. And that's not counting the fact that we're being asked to believe the "intelligence" about Midhat Mursi a)being what the government says he was; and b)actually having been there when the bombs dropped. Yes. Stay alert, and stay with the Pentagon...I mean FOX..I mean WSJ.. I mean ABC.... well, you get the idea. Taranto also quotes Clinton as saying:
    There is nothing patriotic about hating your country, or pretending that you can love your country but despise your government. There is nothing heroic about turning your back on America, or ignoring your own responsibilities.
    Well, yet another reason I was never a big Clinton fan; his conviction that the system can be positively affected from within is pretty naive, at the end of the day. Pequot War was 1630s; now in 2006 we're still children of light bombing the hell out of 'natives.'

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Slado on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:31:37 PM EST
    Punisher...too good. Good form. By the way would you please make sure you clean the place up this time because last time the "Right Wing Conspiracy" met we had to clean up all your empty beer bottles and shot glasses. Thanks. Iran is a serious problem with no good solution. Either we are too wimpy to attack them and they get nuclear weapons or we start another war and lots of people die. Neither one is a good choice.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 06:50:43 PM EST
    Slado, I agree that there just aren't many good options on Iran, but we're all still gonna have to make choices. Hand-wringing is not gonna be an option (well, not one that'll work, anyway). I would try first: a democratic coup. The Iranian people hate their mullahs already, and if Special Ops can do what they did before the initial invasion of Iraq and bribe the right people, it could be over pretty quick. Worth a try at least. If that fails, then you gotta take out the weapons. That's much tougher, but the choice is take out or be taken out. But ... that's my view. I'm more curious what the Lefties here think. Lefties? C'mon, I know it's a tough call, but that's why we pay you the big bucks. Would you support an invasion, if that's what it'd take to get rid of the Iranian nuke threat?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:02:23 PM EST
    ras: ...that's why we pay you the big bucks. Show me the money. Otherwise, lefties position is irrelevent. Bush'll do what Bush'll do.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:11:23 PM EST
    glanton - I just linked your favorite WSJ piece. Now go attack his comparsion rather than what he says.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by ras on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:15:25 PM EST
    punisher, C'mon. You guys have been getting criticized, and fairly so, for years for being reactive and never offering alternative or plans of your own, but just complaining. Here's your chance to stake out a position right now. Or are you waiting to see what Bush does so that you can oppose it? Would you support an invasion of Iran as outlined above? Y/N? As Reagan said, there are simple answers; just not easy ones. What's yours?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimcee on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:23:37 PM EST
    I was wondering if anyone here has heard anything about the four peace activist hostages that were taken in December? Were they released? Are they dead? Was thier kidnapping a fraud? I was just wondering because I haven't heard anything about them since before X-mas and it is as if there is a deliberate lack of reporting about them. Anyone know anything?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by glanton on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 07:23:44 PM EST
    That's okay, Jim. We know where one another stands on the Steyn question. Besides, in lots of ways the Taranto is much more fun, dontcha think? Especially in its contempt for those that worry about bombing "natives"--we have a war on our hands, after all, what's some 15-20 brown people got to do with anything? As for Bin Laden--he's not the greatest threat to American liberty. He, like any crazy person or crazy group, can surely kill someone or several someones if they want. Is an Islamic fanatical killer any worse than the WASP fanatical killers in Laramie? No. In general I'd rather not deal with crazy people and avoid it when I can. But I can't control everything. When I go, I go. I don't need someone protecting me by deciding whether or not I;m having "appropriate conversations." Say it three times, everybody: I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid. I will not stay alert/ I will not stay with Fox/I do not care what color/The terr'ist squad sends us today/.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 09:32:38 PM EST
    ras: Would you support an invasion of Iran as outlined above? Y/N? Dude, wow. Itchy trigger finger, huh?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 19, 2006 at 10:18:34 PM EST
    Itchy AND scratchy. Maybe ras is short for rash.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by chupetin on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 01:40:00 AM EST
    That's much tougher, but the choice is take out or be taken out.
    Since you're from Canada I guess I need to clue you in on something. There are no coutries that can "take us out". Anybody who tries will be obliterated and they know it. Why are you so afraid?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 05:39:42 AM EST
    Glanton - The radical moslems have killed thousands of Americans and thousands more around the world. They have zero tolerance for anything from the west, and regularly stone people to death for violations of their (im)moral code. As for the idoits in Larmie, they were captured, tried, convicted and are in prison. I don't remember, but I hope Wyoming hangs them. Why you would want to compare them to an organized world wide terrorist organization dedicated to killing Christians, Jews, homosexuals, "uppity" women and anyone else who disagrees with them, I really don't know. The comparsion at best is a fringe one.
    Yeah, it was a little inconvenient what with the women and children and peasants and all, but since they were little brown people that don't matter much.
    Yes it was. Now, if you want to say that you are aganst all wars, and all killings, fine. That is a position that some take. Of course they are able to do so only because others sacrifice and protect them.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 09:14:48 AM EST
    deleted- commenter warned that if he keeps making personal insults to other commenters he will be banned.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 03:20:55 PM EST
    Why can't we pull our military bases out of Saudi Arabia and the rest of the ME, stop interfering in their internal affairs, and see if it works? What have we got to loose, besides obscene profits in the defense and oil industries. I think it would at least hurt terrorist recruiting, and stop giving credibility to the ravings of these madmen. Focus our efforts on searching incoming freight, bomb screening airline freight and baggage, and closely monitoring residency and visa requests. These are some areas where even a freedom fanatic like myself will compromise certain liberties. At least it makes sense and isn't counter productive.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 03:26:15 PM EST
    Now, if you want to say that you are aganst all wars, and all killings, fine. That is a position that some take. Of course they are able to do so only because others sacrifice and protect them.
    Jim, you never cease to amaze me. I mean, this is soooo right out of the Bush (both of them, as you no doubt know) playbook I cannot for a second believe you really think, in posting it, that you are actively pparticipating in a conversation of any kind. But for the fun of it I will tell you the same thing I would tell bush the elder if he tried to lay the same trip on me: Why thank you, kind sir, for sanctioning as "fine" my right to take an anti-war position if that's what I want to do. Just as much so as the bishops no doubt felt when bush the elder kept at them with this rhetoric in the early nineties, I am grateful to you for allowing me to take a position. But then if we were having a real conversation, as opposed to me constantly running up against your stale Talking Points, then i would tell you I am not against war in principle but I do think that just about all of them arose out of cavalier contexts, instigated by an elite wealthy few (and in America: WHITE) men who had a heck of a lot to gain, and manifested at the utter expense of those who had virtually nothing to gain from it. Taht would be the conquered little brown/red/yellow people who have always been, I'm sure, eternally grateful to the Children of Light for decimating their established ways of living and ushering them into the age of the concrete jungle. As for the Pakistan bombing, of course any reasonable person would find it disgusting. (I note your thorough indifference, no doubt influenced by the likes of Fred Barnes, to the issue of whether or not said bombing was even sanctioned by the President of that Country, or anyone in Pakistan for that matter. Certainly the dead villagers didn't get a say in it. But then, they don't matter much. What's important is that we can say we got yet anothe #2. Groovy!) Because we are the Children of Light, so sayeth the tradition of Andrew Jackson and before him Jefferson and before him Endicott and back to the present with Bush and one of his most devoted spreaders of the old disease, Jim, aka PPJ. We bomb what we want. We're spreading our special brand of freedom no matter how many corpses we have to create to do it.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:30:08 PM EST
    Oh, an Jim, Re your little Laramie equivocation. The men who kiiled Matt are not "idiots." They are every bit as much terrorists as any Muslim. And their action doesn't by any means stand alone in America history. They just got lots of tabloid press and that's why you heard about it. But anyway, no they were not hung. Largely because Sheppard's father asked the jury not to impose death. Rather than wave the bloody shirt he and his stricken wife offered to rise above. Tough call; don't know that I could have made it there, personally. But then, since you probably think Dukakis was treated fairly in the debate with Bush the elder (how would you feel if....), you probably don't know what I'm talking about.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:33:26 PM EST
    Glanton, You and Soccerdad may be the only two fools left on the planet that still believe they were just innocent villagers having dinner with AQ, and just because you have a voice at TL, doesn't change that most in reality believe you a fool.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 04:56:51 PM EST
    Yeah, Variable, all those children, for example, could only have been Dameon figures. And that's not counting the fact that not everybody is as obsessed with our Grand American Narrative as the average American: which is to say, the Other is not constantly sitting around and plotting to blow up your local strip mall. They have other things to do. And I am sure the Kool Aid drinking section of the populace, of which you are no doubt perfectly representative, would call me a fool for denigrating the killings of Packistani villagers as we spread the message of Light. That's okay. I've been called worse. By worse. Say it with me Variable I am not afraid I am not afraid I am not afraid I will not stay alert I will not stay with Fox.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 05:15:51 PM EST
    glanton - War is not a race thing, as you well know. And my point remains. If you are free to protest war, thank those who fought to keep you free so that you can excercise that right. And all the nasty remarks about Bush won't change that fact. And no, the two idiots in question are not terrorists. They are murderers. Now that doesn't forgive them, but you need to start understanding the difference between people such as these, who can be contained and captured by the criminal justice system, and actual terrorists who must be handled by the military. And I ask you. One of the terrorists that was killed was al-Qaida's chief bomb maker. How many will be saved now that he is gone? As for the innocents, I have no answer. Life is short and in many cases brutish. I see no difference in their deaths than someone killed by a deadly disease. It is sad that it happened, but they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. To view it otherwise will allow the terrorists to swim in the general population, using that population as protection while they plot to kill others.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 05:33:00 PM EST
    War is not a race thing, as you well know
    What a ridiculous comment. But then your idea of a history book is Reagan's War. Read about the "Winning of the West" sometime, but read real history books published by real scholars of real history, not little books pushed by mid-level beauracrats in some Redneck President's (Read: all of them) Administration. Observe in said real history books the real rhetoric of the real WASP leaders and the soldiers who dutifully carry out their orders, observe the metaphoric treatment of Indians as "children" and what not. Letters, Memoirs, Novels, Dispatches. There's a lot of information out there, Jim, but you've got to put down the Kool Aid long enough to access it. The old myth about the pioneers coming to a "wide open space" is itself racist, for it implies there were no other humans there, which if you're a Jacksonian is true. There weren't people there. Only Indians. Think too about the rhetoric WASP leaders and soldiers (gasp! he said something about our troops!) used in the Phillipines at the turn of the century and again in the 40s. Or again. Vietnam. Rhetoric of the White Leaders and the soldiers about these "natives," these unknowing pawns in a game between two smarter, more important populaces. What the actual Vietnamese, the Phillpinos, the Indians, and now the citizens of the Middle East want never matters. They are natives. They must be civilized. Thank God for America.
    To view it otherwise will allow the terrorists to swim in the general population, using that population as protection while they plot to kill others.
    Unlike you, I don't "view" things based on what someone tells me will happen if I view it that way. I "view" things in terms of what I see. And there is all the difference in the world, my big hearted masculine "friend," between a dread disease and a bomb dropping. That you would willingly conflate the two speaks volumes about you.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 06:16:30 PM EST
    Uh oh I sense a "Contested Plains" spiel coming on.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jan 20, 2006 at 06:20:14 PM EST
    Variable, you wouldn't know reality if it bit you on the butt.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 06:56:04 AM EST
    Jondee - Actually if you had read the book you would discover that it is quite harsh on all the groups that came and occupied. But you didn't. However, that doesn't stop you from making an inaccurate point because your beliefs are all tied to politics. glanton - It appears to me that you believe that it is only white men that pratice war. Or at least they are the only ones you comment on and complain about. And you consider "Reagan's War" history? How drool. I think most people consider it commentary. I recommend you read it with that in mind and perhaps you will learn something. But you haven't read it, or the "Contested Plains," have you? As for your typical condemnation of what happened to the Native Americans, it is just trite, and really wasted on someone who has previously posted that they were poorly treated. (See my comments to Johnny.) What happened was that the inidians ran into a land hungry race that had better weapons and tactics. And if we don't watch out, we'll do the same thing. And if you do not understand that guerrillas hide within the general population there is little I can add. As for the difference between a bomb and a deadly disease, tell it to the dead. There is none. And you ignored my point to make a cheap shot. I wrote:
    It is sad that it happened, but they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    Kind of like those, to steal a phrase from Ward Churchill, "little Eichmans" in the WTC on 9/11/01.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 07:32:46 AM EST
    What happened was that the inidians ran into a land hungry race that had better weapons and tactics. And if we don't watch out, we'll do the same thing
    Racism and fear mongering in one sentence. Bravo

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 09:47:51 AM EST
    "Your beliefs are all tied to politics". Everythings connected. And the only time Ive heard you evoke that book has been in the context of a political discussion. And how about cutting The Churchill b.s - nobody even heard of him until your pals ; the Natalee,"War on Christmass" crowd dredged him up out of the fever swamps. Churchills statements were so ill-timed and dumb, I half suspect him of being a right provocatuer.

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 10:40:06 AM EST
    Jondee - You wrote:
    Churchills statements were so ill-timed and dumb, I half suspect him of being a right provocatuer.
    Let me see. You didn't read a book before making a negative comment about it and think Churchill is a provocatuer... Jondee, you must be having a bad day. And yes, the book lends itself to political discussion because it carefully defines what happened with no excuses for anyone. That's how history should be viewed. SD - Thank you for the compliment. But "racism?" Can you tell me what is racist about stating that the Indians ran into a culture that was land hungry and had better weapons and tactics?

    Re: Bin Laden Speaks and Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Sat Jan 21, 2006 at 11:16:47 AM EST
    ppj, The book may not "make excuses" but its been glaringly obvious in the past when youve evoked it, that you were. But keep playig dumb. Btw, theres a Russian version:"The Contested Steppes": Czechoslovakia, Hungery,Bulgaria etc - who at one time had taken it from someone else - came in contact with a more advanced civilisation, and the rest is history. Different times,different circumstances; geopolitics and all that. But, the Motherland is always wrong to some people - what would they do if they didnt have something to complain about?