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Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Detainees

Bump and Update: Unbelievable. The Senate today passed Lindsay Graham's amendment, 49 to 42 barring detainees at Guantanamo and others declared by the Executive Branch to be enemy combatants from seeking judicial review of the legality of their detentions.

Democrats indicated they may try to kill or change the provision before the Senate votes on the overall bill next week. Five Democrats sided with 44 Republicans in voting for the provision.

Who are the five Democrats who voted with Republicans?

Conrad, N.D.; Landrieu, La.; Lieberman, Conn.; Nelson, Neb.; Wyden, Ore.

As I said below, this is an end-run around the Supreme Court's decision in Rasul v. Bush which held Guantanamo detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detentions.

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Original Post: Nov. 9, 9:52 am

Breaking: Senator Lindsay Graham is introducing an Amendment to the defense appropriations bill pending in the Senate (S. 1042) that would strip those designated by the Administration as enemy combatants of the ability to seek habeas review in federal courts. This is an end-run around the Supreme Court's decision in Rasul v. Bush which held Guantanamo detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detentions.

According to Graham's talking points for the bill (which I received by e-mail) his amendment would prohibit detainees from using the court to challenge:

  • The legality of their detentions
  • The propriety of returning detainees to their home countries
  • Adequacy of medical care at Guantanamo
  • Quality of the food
  • Speed of mail delivery
  • Allotment of exercise time and other conditions of confinement

You can read the text of his amendment here. (pdf) (scroll down, the first page is blank.)

This would effectively end all litigation brought on behalf of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, as well as any future litigation on behalf of those imprisoned at the CIA secret detention camps. This bill is intended to have retroactive application.

Please call your senators as soon as possible and urge them to vote against the Graham amendment.

The Center for Constitutional Rights is urging bloggers to get the message out that Graham's amendment needs a swift defeat. Please, do your part.

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    "This bill is intended to have retroactive application." Why come the prohibition against ex post facto laws doesn't apply? Ed

    I'll jump right on this a make sure big "DICK" Durbin knows I'm all for it! Giving our enemies access to our legal system is the grandaddy of all stupid ideas! Why is it you 'smart' people can't see that?

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    How do we know they are our enemies? Just take the gov'ts word for it? Need I remind you they lied about the war, they lied about torture, they lied about secret prisons, the lied about response to Katrina, they lied ... about everything.

    Giving our enemies access to our legal system is the grandaddy of all stupid ideas! Why is it you 'smart' people can't see that?
    Because we're too busy trying to guess who the next "enemy" will be that a law like this will apply to. Could be you.

    The Center for Constitutional Rights' action alert can be found here: link Please take a few minutes to do this. This amendment could be very, very bad if it goes through.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    Giving our enemies access to our legal system is the grandaddy of all stupid ideas!
    Of course it is. Anyone who would even give such an idea the most minor consideration would be an utter fool, or insane, or perhaps both. Why would anyone want to give this kind of power to Bush?

    Sailor... How do we know they are our enemies? Just take the gov'ts word for it? Unlike most of the BUSH haters out there, I tend to give my Government the benefit of the doubt. In an imperfect world mistakes are made, but I'm pretty confident most of the people being held by the US are not our friends. Need I remind you they lied.... Yadda Yadda Yadda,... yes that tired old left talking point... It's all BS. The lies are all on the left. I you wish, I can reprint documents from just about every major Dem agreeing with Bush that Saddam had weapons and needed to be stopped. Are they all liars too? How soon we forget! What are the lies about Katrina? The fact that the State & Local Governmenst screwed up big time? That's not a lie! Are all you guys here to just parrot whatever you hear on leftie blogs?

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Giving our enemies access to our legal system is the grandaddy of all stupid ideas! Why is it you 'smart' people can't see that?
    BB, I hereby declare you an enemy of the state. You are to report to the nearest secret prison and ready yourself to be extraordinarily rendered. You have no rights. You have no legal recourse. You have been accused, and if that is enough for your little war-mongering chimp-boy, it is enough for me. Salem, anyone?

    Quaker.. Because we're too busy trying to guess who the next "enemy" will be. That's easy...anyone who tries to blow us up & kill our citizens. This isn't Rocket science. Could be you I'll take my chances.. thank you. Johnny... BB, I hereby declare you an enemy of the state. hahaha ... Too bad your "the sky is falling" rant isn't even close to what is happening. I'm very confident that if you don't take up arms against the US... give money to terror organizations or Governments.. etc.... you have nothing to fear. Nice try though. Try your loonie lib scare tactics somewhere else. You have no legal recourse. LOL..see, that's where your arguement falls on it's face. Unlike the people you are so concerned with, I am a legal US citizen and therefore have the right to the US legal system... again...nice try though. Keep believing the lie....

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Unlike most of the BUSH haters out there, I tend to give my Government the benefit of the doubt.
    And don't you go quoting me any evidence to the contrary, no matter how well authenticated, no matter how reputable your sources, no matter how damning the details. Ah ain't gonna listen. Ah ain't gonna look. Uh course they's right. Mah country right or wrong. They's the gummint. What dontchyoo git boy?

    You're a bigger moron than anticipated. We don't just have the Constitution to contend with, but a vast body of international law that we've agreed to follow. By doing this, we not only run the risk of running counter to those laws, but endanging our relationships with every single one of those countries. We're on shaky enough ground there, already. In the past, we haven't had a problem showing that we can apply to others what we do to ourselves. We've tried and jailed (or set free, if the circumstances dictated it) foreigners in this country without ever, ever having to muddy the principles laid out in the Constitution. The Constitution isn't just a basis of our laws, it is a statement of who we are as a nation and in our interactions with other nations. A real conservative would ask himself: Why change what has worked for us, perhaps not perfectly or every time, put well and overall? There is no need to change any of this. Doing so will have consequences too many are not prepared to face.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#13)
    by Punchy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    I dont get it. First, the courts and Congress has already allowed Bush to declare anyone they want an "enemy-combatant". Now, they're attempting to remove any ability for one to prove one's NOT. Ok, is this a logical conclusion: Anyone Bush doesn't like can be suddenly declared an "enemy", then locked up, and have NO recourse to prove otherwise? Am I crazy, or would this be a dictatorship???

    edgar... And don't you go quoting me any evidence to the contrary, That's just it... most of the drivel you cite as "evidence" is nothing more than left wing loonie propoganda. This Government (all of it...left & right) had "evidence" that Saddam had WMD's... but you all on the left now choose to call Bush a liar... not taking any responsibility on your part for this war. Dan Rather had "evidence" about Bush's service record...etc..etc.. Get the point now? Aquaria... but a vast body of international law that we've agreed to follow. Show me in any "international law" we signed that says we have to give enemies of this country access to our courts? I'm waiting...and don't bring up the Geneva Conventions... they don't apply here. A real conservative would ask himself: Why change what has worked for us What has worked for us is doing what needs to be done to win the war. I'm not wanting to change a thing... we are doing nothing different now then we did in WWII. You are the ones that want change. All of a sudden our enemies need our lawyers. They need to be coddled & treated like citizens... One more example on how the libs are ruining this country.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#15)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    "Unlike the people you are so concerned with, I am a legal US citizen" so are several folks detained as 'enemy combatants.'

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#16)
    by legion on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    BB- Try harder.
    It's all BS. The lies are all on the left. I you wish, I can reprint documents from just about every major Dem agreeing with Bush that Saddam had weapons and needed to be stopped.
    Go ahead. I believe you'll find that the reason many people agreed that Saddam had WMDs was because they believed the bogus intel the Bush admin showed them. What you have here is a circular argument... The CIA had already determined long ago that the intel Bush and Cheney were basing their war run-up on was complete crap. Both Bush and Cheney knew the info they were using was wrong, yet they still presented it to the public, and Congress, and our allies, as though it were true - that's generally called a lie. And it's why giving him the 'benefit of the doubt' as you put it will never happen again.
    You have no legal recourse. LOL..see, that's where your arguement falls on it's face. Unlike the people you are so concerned with, I am a legal US citizen and therefore have the right to the US legal system... again...nice try though.
    Try reading the original post, BooB. This applies to everyone, citizen or otherwise. If you're declared an 'enemy combatant', you have no recourse to any legal system outside the military tribunals.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    most of the drivel you cite as "evidence" is nothing more than left wing loonie propoganda
    Republicans on Bush

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    This is nothing but bad. The gulag is back and looking very American. Unlike BB, I trust my government where and when it has EARNED my trust. In the arena of "secret prisons" and "enemy combatants" I have no reason to believe my government is even marginally competent. With all the malfeasance surrounding the buying and selling of "prisoners", tribal grudges being settled by turning someone in as a "terrorist", it's a fools errand to think there isn't an unacceptable rate of incarcerated innocents. It's equally foolish to run rhetorical interference for this utterly unimaginative administration and its hopelessly inept, murderous, and ultimately self-defeating "war" on "terror". They haven't the logic on which to underpin any rhetoric. It's all hollow.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#19)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    This is beyond smart vs stupid, this is to the point of good vs evil. I am glad to see only one evil person here

    You have no legal recourse. LOL..see, that's where your arguement falls on it's face. Unlike the people you are so concerned with, I am a legal US citizen and therefore have the right to the US legal system... again...nice try though. Keep believing the lie....
    Wake up and smell the Patriot Act

    Roger... Yeah...I'm evil because I don't by into the propoganda BS. (Can you say Lemmings?) I'm also a biggot (according to La LA Paulie) because I think people that live here should speak English. LOL...what a terrible person I am! I'm sure I'm at a lower level in all your eyes than the terrorists who want to kill you but you all seemed bent on protecting? But none of your priorities are out of whack....but hey...just slander and mock your own countrymen and praise those that want us both dead... Hey...it's the liberal way! Bill from D... Wake up and smell the Patriot Act Anybody you know in jail from this? Didn't think so. When that happens...let me know...then I'll worry.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    I'd rather be an enemy of the state than an enemy of human rights and basic human decency, like Sen. Graham. When the state becomes the enemy of human rights, any patriot should consider his or herself an enemy of the state. BB...Safety before Freedom? That's not the BB I thought I knew. Habeas, IMO, is a an inalienable right of all human beings, no matter how evil they may be.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Anybody you know in jail from this? Didn't think so. When that happens...let me know...then I'll worry.
    Guess you will never have to worry because under the patriot act you will not find out who is arrested. It is kept secret in order to protect national security.

    Posted by BB: "...anyone who tries to blow us up & kill our citizens. This isn't Rocket science." Explain to us why Bush hasn't punished Saudi Arabia for the 15 hijackers who attacked our country. Just our citizens? What about the terrorists who have killed 130,000 Iraqis using US weapons? Explain how the Supreme Court with a Bushie majority failed to understand 'rocket science' when it ordered review?

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#25)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    BB
    I tend to give my Government the benefit of the doubt. In an imperfect world mistakes are made, but I'm pretty confident most of the people being held by the US are not our friends.
    Actually you contradict yourself. Last time I looked, our legal system was part of our government. So if you don't trust our legal system, you really don't trust our govenment. In our system of justice, people are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. In this particular case, not only have they not been proven guilty of anything, but they haven't even been charged with any crime. Now if you believe in taking away the rights of detainees because you trust the federal government so much, then shouldn't you also be advocating that the these same legal rights be taken away from us as well? You can't have it both ways. I trust the government when they take away the rights of others, but I want to keep rights like habeas for us because you can't trust the government. After all, it is the same government,isn't it? Our founding fathers created a system of checks and balances on government because they didn't believe in giving those that ran our government the benefit of the doubt. They believed that in an imperfect world, without checks to governmental power, such as the right to habeas review, governments would tend to abuse their power and become tyrannical.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#26)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    BB cannot wait for the police state. Only then will he feel safe and free.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#27)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    BB, You believe in torture because you do not believe the propoganda? That's a laugh, you believe in torture because you DO believe all the lies that W feeds you. But since you want to torture people, you are, per se, evil. You have no credibility on ANY issue. Bye Bye, I no longer feel a need to listen to anything that you ever have to say, on any topic. Evil Mo-fo. If it was up to me, you'd be locked up for the public's safety. Have a nice life.

    kdog.... Habeas, IMO, is a an inalienable right of all human beings, no matter how evil they may be. We are not in complete disagreement here...however, it is my opinion that in time of war, the first priority is to get any information possible that might save American lives. Many prisoners have been released and I'm sure many more will be once we find they have nothing to offer. BB...Safety before Freedom? What good is 'freedom' if the country no longer exists. First things first... we are at war now and like other wars in the past... some things have to take a temporary back seat so we can take care of business. I'd rather have a few pissed off people, because we searched them a little harder than others, than to have the city of Chicago blown away... I guess that's just one of my quirks? All those 'free' people in Chi. wouldn't enjoy it very much dead! It's all about whether we believe enemies of the US should have access to our legal system...I say NO. Can you imagine nazi soldiers suing the US in our courts because we mistreated them in WWII? Makes no sense at all, but that could happen if libs get their way.

    Squeaky... Guess you will never have to worry because under the patriot act you will not find out who is arrested Not true. La La Paulie.... Explain to us why Bush hasn't punished Saudi Arabia for the 15 hijackers who attacked our country I can't... and am just as frustrated as you. How would you 'punish' them? What about the terrorists who have killed 130,000 Iraqis using US weapons? We are at war and (unlike you libs who hate America) I don't see our troops as terrorists. Plus... your 130K number is false. Terrorists in Iraq have killed more civilians than our troops have. Explain how the Supreme Court with a Bushie majority failed to understand 'rocket science' when it ordered review? Review what...? Please speak in full sentences and not code. The Supreme Court doesn't have a 'Bushie" majority. John Horse.... So if you don't trust our legal system, you really don't trust our government. Where did I say I didn't trust our legal system? I just don't think enemies from other countries should have access to it! not only have they not been proven guilty of anything, but they haven't even been charged with any crime. Why is it you all find so hard to comprehend we are at war? These aren't people that were picked up in your neighborhood for robbing the local 7-11? If I use your analogy... A German soldier picked up in France during WWII committed no crime... right? He should be able to get a good American lawyer & sue the USA... right? Now if you believe in taking away the rights of detainees These people captured during this war have no rights (GC does not apply) accept what we agree to give them. then shouldn't you also be advocating that the these same legal rights be taken away from us as well? No...you're waaay off base here.. the two aren't inclusive. You need to stop grouping people that want to kill us with people that want to stop them. There is a difference... just in case you didn't know that. Johnny... BB cannot wait for the police state. I'm not worried about that... get a grip on your paranoia will you? Roger... you believe in torture because you DO believe all the lies that W feeds you. No... I believe in doing whatever is necessary to protect the USA & its people. You my friend are the one that believes everything you hear. But since you want to torture people, you are, per se, evil. Never said I wanted to torture anybody...but go ahead & call me names...it's a basic thing here on TL.. Thanks... I will have a nice life.. even though my evil government can't wait to put me in jail...LMAO

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    What war? Mission accomplished, free elections and a constitution, we've turned the corner (at least 3 times;-), the iraqis are greatful and never had it so good (I mean aside from no potable water, electricity, freedom, food ...etc.) What good is safety if freedom doesn't exist? I for one would rather die on my feet than live on my knees. Would you trust clinton with the power to imprison forever w/o cause?

    I tend to give my Government the benefit of the doubt. In an imperfect world mistakes are made, but I'm pretty confident most of the people being held by the US are not our friends.
    Why should you give the government the benefit of doubt?. How many times are you lied to before you assume that the liar is just that?. Why should any institution which exists primarily in secret and is continually caught in lies, deception and distortion be given any doubt whatsoever?. Me thinks that anyone who trusts the federal government is nothing less than a fool. Elected officials or politicians are like baby diapers, they have to be changed often and for the same reason. Finally, how exactly would you know whether or not anyone being held in captivity by the US government is a friend or a foe since it's all a secret?, and if in fact they are guilty, then why not simply charge them and put them on trial. Oh that's right, they get a secret trial, with secret evidence, in a secret location, presided over by a secret judge. Yup, that certainly is the American way. Uh-huh.

    BB, perhaps you should have another read through of the Geneva Convention. Not only do prisoners of war have the right to file greivances, the country that holds the prisoners must puruse and try any persons who commit one of the following acts: "...wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of the hostile Power, or wilfully depriving a prisoner of war of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed in this Convention." The last part of that quote refers to prisoners of war being accused of a crime and being tried in a military court. However, if a citizen of the country holding prisoners is accused (which is the case here) the case is tried by that country.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    bb-guess you are out of touch with the Patriot Act. Remember Padilla, that could be you. Innocent, what does that matter anymore as there does not have to be a trial, you will be jailed until you die. Like Bush? Well you gave up your rights and the next dictator who you may hate inherits Bush's power to imprison you. What a fool you are.

    No point in debating with "BB". Whoever that is, they're only here because hanging out on the right-wing boards is so depressing right now. From Wikipedia:
    In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages on the internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt the discussion or to upset its participants. The word, or its derivative, "trolling", is also used to describe such messages or the act of posting them.
    [remainder of quotes deleted.]

    Sailor.... What war? The war we are in and will be in for some time... Are you that far out of touch? Try reading something other than lefty propoganda sites. You can cite all the cutsie Iraqi stuff you want... this war is about Islamic crazies that want us all dead... Iraq just happens to be where the current battle is. Would you trust clinton with the power to imprison forever w/o cause? First of all... I am behind the prez.. no matter what party he is in. Secondly... nobody is being imprisoned without cause... You all need to chill and get in tune with reality. Whenpigsfly... How many times are you lied to before you assume that the liar is just that?. Well..if it's really a "lie" not too many... however, when it's propoganda BS and called a lie when it actually isn't... that's a different story. I am old & wise enough to know the difference... too bad most of you aren't. Me thinks that anyone who trusts the federal government is nothing less than a fool. There are plenty of other (nicer?) countries out there (France?) ... maybe their Government would be more "trustworthy" for you? Elected officials or politicians are like baby diapers, they have to be changed often and for the same reason. I'm in 100% agreement there. That goes for Dems too... yes? how exactly would you know whether or not anyone being held in captivity by the US government is a friend or a foe since it's all a secret?, There are many 'secrets' that the general population doesn't know. As a former member of SAC.. I had a top secret clearance and I understand why this needs to be... SO? Now... do you have any friends or know of anybody that is missing? Are you really concerned that the police will come to your house one day, take you away and you'll never be heard from again? I didn't think so.... then why not simply charge them and put them on trial. Because these people have NO rights to our legal system any more than a German soldier in WWII would have... popewiz... BB, perhaps you should have another read through of the Geneva Convention. No thanks... I know it very well. It doesn't apply here. These guys haven't signed it...don't follow it & don't belive in it. They do not report to a structure, wear uniforms, ect..etc. But you guys on the left go ahead and chastise us for not following it and let them continue to cut peoples heads off... without uttering a word of protest...it's ok. the country that holds the prisoners must puruse and try any persons who commit one of the following acts: Yes.. and there is no time limit on that... if you know anything about history... you'd know all the war trails in WWII took place after the war was over! Squeaky... Like Bush? I never said I liked him... I am however behind the president..whoever he is. Well you gave up your rights ... no I haven't! and the next dictator who you may hate inherits Bush's power to imprison you. I'll worry about that if & when it happens. I have enough stuff to worry about now without dreaming up sh@t that won't happen. What a fool you are. Yes..trying to reason with the unreasonable does make me a fool doesn't it?

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    bb-
    Yes..trying to reason with the unreasonable does make me a fool doesn't it?
    No being a fool has to do with rolling over on command without question. Blind acceptance of authority is what got the Germans into trouble. Lapdogs like you are the necessary component for Fascists to gain power.

    squeaky... No being a fool has to do with rolling over on command without question. See... that's exactly what I think the liberal left does... As soon as something negative about this country...the prez..the military...etc. comes out, all you guys immediately jump on it as fact. Who's the lap dog really? The liberal press has all you panting for the next bit of what they call news.. and you all gobble it up...no questions asked! I know we make mistakes...I know this prez isn't the best...but guess what...we need to all get behind him & this country and stop the needless finger pointing. You guys on the left are so bent on bringing GW down you don't care what lies you spread & who gets hurt (IE - our military) in the process. That's the differnce between you & me... I at least wait until all the facts are in before I accuse... you all ought to try that for a change!

    Hmmmm, lets not forget 95% of those originally arrested AND interrogated at Abu Ghraib were determined to be INNOCENT of any crime. They were released, AFTER tortuous interrogation. What do we say to those locked up in secret CIA prisons and tortured to obtain "timely intelligence information"? Sorry, you are innocent and don't tell anyone where you were locked up or what we did to you to determine your innocence? How do we replace your fingers? How do we replace your penis and testicles? How do we replace your rectum? How do we restore your life? Now we can change "God Bless America" to "God Forgive America". John McCarthy http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com

    the amendment just passed - 49-42.

    More on the amendment and passage: link here.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    the amendment just passed - 49-42.
    How horrifying. Welcome to the United Gulags of America. CCR

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#42)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    Nicely put JohnMcCarthy.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#46)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:57 PM EST
    A question for the sane among us; To take away a constitutional right, wouldnt you have to pass a constitutional amendment? I would think that this bill would have no legal significance. For the insane: we are at war. I like torture. 9-11! 9-11! Why do you hate america?

    Posted by BB: ( Explain to us why Bush hasn't punished Saudi Arabia for the 15 hijackers who attacked our country) "I can't... and am just as frustrated as you. How would you 'punish' them?" Besides the point. The point is that you said it wasn't rocket science. So how is that your leader can't figure it out? (What about the terrorists who have killed 130,000 Iraqis using US weapons?) "We are at war" Where is the Declaration of War, then? That's required by the Constitution. What Bush is doing is not covered under the War Powers Act or the Iraq Resolution passed in the Congress. "I don't see our troops as terrorists." The innocent people being killed CERTAINLY do. You are a racist, not a patriot. Try to understand the difference. "Terrorists in Iraq have killed more civilians than our troops have." 20,000 mercs can do a lot of damage. Why has Bush hired Apartheid murderers? Why has Bush hired Milosevich's thugs? For TERRORISM. Get used to it. (Explain how the Supreme Court with a Bushie majority failed to understand 'rocket science' when it ordered review?) "Review what...? Please speak in full sentences and not code." The SCOTUS ordered review of Guantanamo detentions by a court. "With a decision notably brief for the mountain of argument leading up to it, the U.S. Supreme Court in Rasul v. Bush held on June 28, 2004, that foreign nationals imprisoned without charge at the Guantanamo Bay interrogation camps were entitled to bring legal action challenging their captivity in U.S. federal civilian courts." "The Supreme Court doesn't have a 'Bushie" majority." Riiiiight. FIVE JUSTICES WHO VOTED FOR BUSH RATHER THAN UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION. That's a majority.

    BB as OJ juror...why bother trying to engage in a debate with Bush supporters? They are like OJ jurors. Forget the evidence of deceit by Bush, libs are "cesspools of corruption", forget the incompetence and ineptitute of Rummy, the cops are "rascist". Bush is innocent of any wrongdoing, he's just chipping golf balls. BB and his ilk will never see the light. Like OJ jurors who believed that there's no way the JUICE killed Nicole, BB can't believe that a Republican conservative could be an inept, immoral incompetent boob, instead he believes its the Libs who are un-american, unpatriotic al qaida sympathizers. I often wondered how brother could kill brother and American could kill American during the Civil War. As I read more and more of the tripe and idiocy put out by conservative thinkers as manifested by people such as BB, I now can understand the rage felt by the Northerners and how easy it would be to take a musket to the head of an idiot like BB and pull the trigger without a trace of remorse. My friends, we are becoming more and more polarized because of the conservative close mindedness which won't allow for rational reasonable discourse. Johnny Reb paid the price for trying to destroy America. Does anyone really shed a tear for those traitorous bastards? Because they were defeated, America was able 100 years later to free most of the world from the tyranny of European empire and spread freedoms light to billions. BB's thoughts jeopardize the furthering of American ideals, just as much as those dead graycoats did.

    People like BB aren't a threat to freedom as much as they are useful **** willing to prop up the true threats; those that are willing to sell out fundamental freedoms for political expediency. This type of creature has been around for a long time, but we note a big resurgence of them in the last 4 years.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    Roger, You are right. This is insanity. Republicans keep reassuring us that their attack on civil liberties is only temporary. Once the "war" on terrorism is over, everything will be restored as it was (some of you who are reading this should wipe that smirk off your face - don't you trust the government?). When will the war be over? Well, according to Bush once all terrorists are eliminated. Since there is a high likelihood that at almost any period of time there will be some terrorists somewhere in the world, what the Bush administration is proposing is a neverending "war" in which our legal and human rights will be continuously eroded.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#48)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    The irony of Bush and the Republican "war" on terrorism is that, like the war in Iraq, so much of what they do is counterproductive. They keep playing into Al Queda's hands by demonstrating that those of us in the West don't practice what we preach regarding human and legal rights. If we give up our freedoms and rights, the terrorists win.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    JH-Al Queda and Bush are secret allies.

    "To take away a constitutional right, wouldnt you have to pass a constitutional amendment?" Nope...
    Section. 9. Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
    ...just interpretation from a willing Court.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#51)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    When I joined the Army, I took an oath to "defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic". When I got out, they did not have me recind this oath. When I became a lawyer, I took an oath to uphold the constitutions of the US and of my home state. So, do these oaths require rhetoric, or force of arms? These jokers should be careful, lots of people took the same oaths that I did.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    et al - Didn't Lincoln suspend it? BTW - I found a piece of the sky on my driveway. Please call Chicken Little.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#53)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    The only problem with this bill is that it does not differentiate between American citizens and noncitizens. The traitors should maintain their habeus rights, but those who are not citizens should not. Is the line artificial? Perhaps. Does the line run the risk of the when they came for me no one was left to cry out risk? Probabally not. If you are a citizen, or are on US soil you should be given the protections of the Constitution... as much as it is counter to the good of the country at times. But IIRC none of those in Gitmo were captured on US soil. The citizens should be given habeus, in route to a treason determination.

    Living up to the ideals of the United States of America should have the same priority as physically defending the United States of America. If defense becomes a higher priority than living out the ideals that we stand for, then all we are doing is defending some generic country. I want to live in America. I don't want to live in just any country.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#55)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:58 PM EST
    Jim, Lincoln has been critisized ever since for that. Just like FDR will always have the legacy of trying to pack the Supreme Court. Nobody's perfect. Bush doesnt even come close.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:59 PM EST
    bb-the very definition of lapdog:
    First of all... I am behind the prez.. no matter what party he is in.
    You are what every fascist wannabe is looking for. Blind adherence to authority. Thank the heavens that you are part of an ever shrinking minority.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#58)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:00 PM EST
    "My country right or wrong" Wow! I havent heard that in a while. Last time was during Watergate. I thought that BB and his kind had died out.

    Posted by BB: "Like it or not...he's your leader too." Hardly. He wasn't legally elected; he has committed numerous impeachment offenses; he has committed treason; he is a criminal racist. I don't have any leaders who are racist traitors. "We've been 'friends' with the Saudis for many years now and I'm sure some of these things take time. I'm not happy about this either..." That's HILARIOUS. No wonder you can't figure out the truth. "I'll ask you again...what would you do?" Have a president who protected the US, instead of one that stood down NORAD for a five-week vacation and dreams of world domination. "What you all fail to realize is this isn't a conventioanl war... " You spelled Constitutional wrong. "Why has Bush hired Apartheid murderers? Why has Bush hired Milosevich's thugs" "More left wing propoganda BS! Which you seem to be full of." Google Francois Stryber, and educate yourself a tiny bit.

    Re: Senate Passes Amendment to End Habeas for Deta (none / 0) (#60)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:00 PM EST
    Paul in LA scores one of the greatest posts in the history of this blog:
    "What you all fail to realize is this isn't a conventioanl war... " You spelled Constitutional wrong.