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California Pot Growing Soars

By Jeralyn, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Thu Oct 13, 2005 at 11:18:10 PM EST
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USA Today takes an in-depth look at the booming marijuana growing business in Northern California and the efforts of CAMP, a group of state drug agents to fight it. It's a losing proposition for CAMP, which they blame on Mexican cartels.

These numbers are pretty astonishing.

A June report for Taxpayers for Common Sense by Harvard economist Jeffrey Miron found that despite billions of dollars spent on marijuana suppression — nearly $4 billion by the federal government in 2004 alone — usage is about the same as 30 years ago.

It's a waste of money. Demand is not going to go down.

"Look at the amount of economic value we're destroying," says Dale Gieringer, director of California NORML, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. "This could be legally taxed and regulated and we could all be making money off it. We never saw this lawlessness until there were drug laws and CAMP." NORML estimates that Californians' pot consumption could yield at least $250 million a year in sales taxes.

Gieringer also says that, despite the government's assertion, there is no evidence that Mexican cartels are involved in the cultivation.

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    California Pot Growing Soars | 40 comments (40 topical)
    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    So It's legal to brew beer and wine at home. There's no conspiracy charge for sharing those intoxicants with friends and family.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#38)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Violence is a big part of it nowadays, and I don't totally buy that it's because of restrictions.
    Yeah, similarly, ending Prohibition didn't do anything to end... wait... never mind. At least we know that marijuana makes its users prone to fits of murderous... er... hmm. Well, I'm sure the government is right.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#39)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Having made homebrewed beer, I can tell you that it tastes great! My attempts at growing have been less successful.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#40)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    pw-the context of the argument was taxation.
    This wasn't a dig at you; in my experience this is by and large the go-to argument. And no, it certainly doesn’t make me feel comfortable. Most folks I know are liberal, and their reaction to my views on prohibition are little different than the conservatives I know. That is, they are very scared (and hostile) toward public access to drugs sans prescription.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#2)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:04:59 PM EST
    But, but, but...what about all the poor police? They won't get their windfall forfeiture money anymore and have to go back to begging their local citizens for money through the budget system like they used to! What about all the politically ambitious prosecutors and judges who want to make a name for themselves 'fighting' a straw man? What about the equally politically ambitious prison guard unions? What about the prison industries getting fat off of cheap slave labor? What about them? Oh my God, we'll have to lay some of them off!... ...and let them get a taste of what it's like being on the short, sharp and s****y end of the stick they've been stabbing cannabis users with for the past 30 years. The fact is, folks, the Republicans who wanted to cut the budget to pay for Katrina reconstruction are right for once: we can no longer afford anything that does this country not one iota of good while wasting billions on the process. The fiscal writing is on the wall, the red pencils are sharpened, and at the top of that list should be this insane war on drugs, which is increasingly obvious is a war on cannabis users. Enough, already!

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#3)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Quick question for all you wingers... why???

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Yeah, but don't you see how pot is hurting society? Dont you see? Don't you SEE? /sarcasm, of course

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#6)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    "using federal or state park land that is remote and costly to monitor for rural counties" Just a few miles from my house: link

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#7)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Most of the california growing is done by Mexican nationals for large drug cartels that don't limit their activities to marijuana. Not that anyone here cares, but I thought I'd mention that.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#8)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    If mining and grazing and logging can be done on public land, why not pot growing? It's less harmful to the environment than any of the others.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    AW, Have you ever witnessed the mess left by groups I described? I didn't think so. They use so much decon that every living small animal within a hundred yards of grow is dead, birds, rabbits, mice ect, because those animals will damage the "crop." They dam watersheds and springs, cause erosion, leave garbage and hazardous materials, clearcut underbush and small trees and cause numerous wild fires while cooking. That doesn't even take into account traps they set for cops and others who are using public lands. Yeah, I guess I have to disagree that they are less harmful than loggers and grazing.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Oh i get it... It won't make a difference in your opinion so why bother. I guess we should not investigate homicides since putting people in jail for that won't stop it either? Geeesh.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#12)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Patrick, that's conflation, putting cannabis smoking on the same level as murder. That's intellectually dishonest and you've been called out on pulling that stunt here, before. It's beneath you. Why keep doing it, knowing you'll be challenged on it? If those violent Mex are there, it's because weed's profitability was enhanced, thanks to both heightened penalties for growing and organized crime forcing out all the Mom 'n' Pop growers long ago. "Think of it as evolution in action"...evolution of the worst kind. An evolution prohibitionists like Patrick are largely to blame for. You wanted the tougher penalties, yes? You screamed and shouted and pounded the politician's desks, through the offices of your unions, for the mandatory minimums, yes? Well, there's the bed you prohibitionists made; now you cry about not wanting to lay in it because it's full of razor wire and Mex who shoot first? Drug law reformers told you prohibitionists this would happen, and that's exactly what did happen. And, just as it has for the last 5 years, it will get worse, not better.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    SeeEmDee, Your entire comment is built on the foundation of this premise: "If those violent Mex are there, it's because weed's profitability was enhanced" Yet one the first first google hits of "pot prices history" gives us this: "Marijuana is a common weed, easier to produce than the bathtub gin of the Prohibition years. It is not surprising that thousands of "dealers" have been drawn into the marijuana business. Despite the great risks they face, including bullying by other dealers and the threat of arrest, they are attracted by the profits. The law cannot change the economics of this market because it operates outside the law. All the police can do is to make it risky to get into the marijuana business. This is supposed to drive out the less courageous dealers, reduce the amount of marijuana available, and inflate prices. But even by this measure, the police effort has failed. As mentioned earlier, the price of marijuana is declining." LINK

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#14)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Seemdee, I wasn't equating murder to cultivation, although on the level we're talking about here, it is much more serious than ma and pa growing their own smoke, as some try to portray it. Violence is a big part of it nowadays, and I don't totally buy that it's because of restrictions. California has been decrimninalizing marijuana and lessening criminal penalties for years and look where it's gotten us. I was extending the philosophy described by DA to its extreme in an effort to show why I disagree with it. And still do. Sorry if it wasn't clear. I've never endorsed stiffer penalties and have many times cited California's laws as a good balance between legalization/medical userecreation. Perhaps you should familarize youself more with my posts before you go making those false statements. I do not support recreational legalization and that is about the limit of my posts on that.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Patrick, Not that you care ;-), but in answer to the question you posed, if pot were legal and regulated (like alcohol, say), wouldn't that cut down on the illegal growing of it in parks by shadowy, messy Mexican mafioso and other criminals? Well? And do you have a problem with that? What might it be, pray tell (and don't play dumb and make the circular argument that pot is illegal...this is a hypothetical question, use your imagination, if it hasn't atrophied because of your law enforcement career).

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    "wouldn't that cut down on the illegal growing of it in parks by shadowy, messy Mexican mafioso and other criminals?" Actually, that's an interesting question. Let's see, cost of stealing the use of fed/state land now - zero, cost of buying farm land - high. Cost of labor now - significant, cost of labor if legalized/regulated - higher. Cost of advertising now - zero, cost of national advertising if legal - much higher. Cost of transporation, distribution, etc., now - significant, cost of same if leagalized/regulated - higher. Cost of taxes now - zero, cost of taxes if legalized - much higher. Etc., etc. My guess is that it would still be grown and sold illegally, because it would much, much more profitable to do so.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#17)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    Jackl, Sarcastic's points aside, the answer to your question is no, I don't believe it will. Here's why if you care. California already has the most lenient laws in the nation for marijuana (or close to). I can fly certain areas where I live and see that 50% or more of the residences have some amount of marijuana growing at or near them. The amounts range from a couple plants to a couple hundred. Our enforcement of those is non-existant because we believe that if the marijuana has an obvious nexus to a residence, that person is likely going to claim (Rightfully or not) that is is medical marijuana. What that example shows to me is that nearly everyone can or will learn to grow it even if it's only for the purpose of evading a few cents in taxes. If we decide to tax it, who is going to go to those residences to ensure they are in compliance with tax laws? A huge new enforcement agency? How much will THAT cost? I believe the legalize and tax argument is faulty because of that reason and others. You can hardly tax something that virtually anyone with opposable thumbs can grow.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    When California had tougher laws this wasn't the problem it is today. Also, FYI, I got the "subtle" negative comment at the end of your post, but thought I'd ignore it in hopes that you could see the reality in my statement, despite your obvious prejudice.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#19)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Sarcastic, Your argument fails on the basis of economics. If it was legal to grow pot, anyone who wanted it would most likely invest a small amount of money in setting up a grow cabinet and grow it themselves. For the price of an ounce today you could set up a space that would provide your needs for the rest of your life with the exception of a very small electrical charge each month. Or you could just grow several plants in the summertime to ensure yourself enough for the year (marijuana is an amazing plant which grows well everywhere but within the arctic circles. Why would anyone pay today's dope prices if they could safely (as in no threat of arrest and imprisonment) grow it themselves? On the other hand, it has long been argued by those who smoke it that if the government licensed the tobacco companies to grow it and taxed it like cigarettes, people would gladly pay even more for it than they do now, but that would still end up with clandestine growing operations because the economics argues for growing it yourself. But the biggest question of all is why the government cares so much about this. Are you really comfortable with the argument that the government is protecting you from yourself? Will you be as comfortable when they say you can't go skiiing, or ride a bicycle, or drive a car, or swim in the ocean, all because you might get hurt? I don't remember any politician ever running on the promise that they would protect us from ourselves, and, frankly, I didn't ask them to.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Pat-Is there a tax on homegrown tomatoes? People are lazy and most would rather buy a tomato than grow one. Chances are people would buy quality weed over the counter, as they do in Switzerland and Holland. Tobacco is very hard to grow and process which is exactly why it is legal. Weed, as the name connotes, grows easily and needs little or no processing. Since corps and the tax man do not see money in it is will remain illegal. Too much money and political currency is generated in keeping it illegal. The biggest profits are not earned by the drug dealers, so it will remain illegal.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#21)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Squeaky, Maybe I'm missing your point, but it looks like your argument supports my position. No, there is no way to tax homegrown vegetables, and I imagine if they cost $100-$300 per ounce, many more people would find the time to plant them. Of course they (tomatos) don't last as long as marijuana, which can produce enough in one growing season to last through til the next one. At least that's what the hundreds of growers I've talked to tell me. Taxation won't work. But let's say for a moment that it would. Company "A" produces marijuana at a cost of $40 per ounce, and wants to make a $10 profit per ounce. They could legally sell marijuana for 50$ per ounce, but then have to pay $10 per ounce it sells in taxes. Total cost to the consumer is $60. That's a pretty cheap price for an ounce of weed in today's market. And I wouldn't expect the taxes to be below 10%, using gas as a model. Illegal grower "B" figures he can sell his weed for $50 an ounce, understanding that since it's legal now he can grow as much as he wants, and no one can track it. He never pays the taxes and no one will ever now because he's not public with his business. His profit per ounce is twice that of Company "A" and he has more consumers cause his prices are lower. Who you gonna buy from? Everyone here I think agrees that marijuana use is far ranging. From the young to the old, the poor to the rich, the professional to the unskilled laborer. How big of a federal/state agency do you think you'd have to build to actually control the marijuana market to any degree sufficient enough to make consistant taxation a reality? Answer that question. Remembering that the infrastructure for the black market is already in place. And you would still have to investigate and prosecute illegal growers who were avoiding taxation right? Or would you just let it go? There are many other reasons I don't think legalization is a good solution, but I've spouted them ad nauseum here.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    jp, "Your argument fails on the basis of economics. If it was legal to grow pot, anyone who wanted it would most likely invest a small amount of money in setting up a grow cabinet and grow it themselves." Fair point, my argument does indeed fail. "But the biggest question of all is why the government cares so much about this. Are you really comfortable with the argument that the government is protecting you from yourself?" Well, you might note that I didn't give my opinion on the issue so your question presupposes my position. Regardless, I'm usually not much interested in discussing the greater issues on this site because 1) they've been done to death here 2) are never resolved, and 3) often become infantile. As often happens in matters of opinion. But if someone makes a fallacious argument I'll point it out - like I did badly here and you did well.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#23)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Patrick, Interesting argument, but you still have to answer the question why anyone would buy it from either grower if they could just grow it themselves. And it's not as easy as saying "people buy vegetables". Most vegetable crops take a significant amount of land to cultivate in the quantities necessary to produce a payoff to the grower, and most of them do not do well in small container systems suitable for balconies, fire escapes, or urban and suburban yards. One tomato plant, even a prolific one, will only produce edible tomatoes for a month, at most, and the number of tomatoes within that month is quite limited. Marijuana, on the other hand, does very well in small spaces and containers, and the amount which can be produced from even a modest plant can last the average recreational smoker months if not years. And, of course, there is no requirement that legalization equals commcercialization. We could legalize marijuana cultivation for one's personal use and still leave it illegal to grow on a commercial scale. We could also make it legal to grow for personal use but illegal to sell. Either approach makes more sense than spending the time and effort we are now fighting a relatively harmless plant that has been around as long as we have, if not longer, and which mankind has been using for eons. To borrow a line from the NRA: When pot is illegal, only criminals will have pot. Sarcastic, My apologies. I did not intend to imply any position on those issues on your behalf. I should have worded my questions better.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    jp, no problem, no offense was taken.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Pat-Even though I can grow my own vegetables and herbs I buy them. There is no tax in NYC for food so it is a bit of a bad example, but if there were a tax I would still buy from the market as it is cheap enough, I buy small quantities and do not have a garden. Liquor is not so complex to make, all you need is some equipment and supplies. I know of only one person who makes their own and it is not because of economics it is because he likes his moonshine. Most people buy their booze from stores; the black market for that dried up with the end of prohibition. With weed most people would wind up buying it from a store as they do in Switzerland and Holland. Taxes would be generated by the sale of weed. The black market for weed will be crushed if it were made legal, as it was with booze. If weed were legalized the biggest economic damage would be suffered by the WOD service industry. The police and prison industry is a big thriving business subsidized by the criminalization of weed, that is why is is illegal. Even if tax revenue surpassed by tenfold the money spent on the WOD (weed part) it would still be illegal as there is no lobby for tax money that has not been collected and earmarked for distribution.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#26)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    JP,
    And, of course, there is no requirement that legalization equals commcercialization. We could legalize marijuana cultivation for one's personal use and still leave it illegal to grow on a commercial scale.
    That's essentially what has been done in California, and it has done nothing to quell the number of illegal grows.
    Interesting argument, but you still have to answer the question why anyone would buy it from either grower if they could just grow it themselves.
    That's exaclty my argument to those who say leaglize it and tax it. Taxation wouldn't work, because people would just grow it themselves, un-regluated.
    And, of course, there is no requirement that legalization equals commcercialization.
    Of course there isn't but that is exactly the issue raised in this thread, the commercial production of marijuana.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    the black market for (alcohol)dried up with the end of prohibition
    really? There's no black market for untaxed booze? I think you're wrong on that. Booze like we are all used to is not easy to make. Homemade beer frequently tastes like sh!t and so does moonshine. It's hard to make, and time consuming even with the correct equipment. Sterilizing and cleaning the equipment each time so you get proper fermentation is a pain in the a$$. Marijuana is simple and easy, takes minimal space and minimal care to produce a supply large enough to last a recreational user an entire year. Come on! That's not the best you got is it?

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#28)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Pat-Even though I can grow my own vegetables and herbs I buy them.
    But if they were $50 per ounce would you still? or even $25? I don't think you would. You would do without or grow your own.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#29)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    As long as people can make tax free money they will. The black market for marijuana will not dry up with legalization as long as there is profit to made. If you look at the issue seriously you will see that. If you sold crack in the grocery store, there would still be people who bought and sold it on the black market.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Pat-so how come there is not a big black market for alcoholic beverages?

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Squeaky: "Homemade beer frequently tastes like sh!t and so does moonshine. It's hard to make, and time consuming even with the correct equipment. Sterilizing and cleaning the equipment each time so you get proper fermentation is a pain in the a$$."

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    and "Marijuana is simple and easy, takes minimal space and minimal care to produce a supply large enough to last a recreational user an entire year."

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Why do people that drink a lot go to bars where $50/ night is their minimum, when they could buy the same amount for $10 or less. Weed clubs and over the counter sales could function the same way, as well as related products, bongs etc. If there were not so many profiting off its illegality, and I mean the right side of the law, it would produce taxes revenue for sure. People will buy it, as they do now. Clubs, bars, coffee houses, paraphernalia, there is potential for a huge taxable industry there, the pot lobby is miniscule to the anti-weed $$ lobby.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#34)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    Sarcastic/Pat- Spoken like a man who has neither grown pot nor brewed beer. Christ, it really kills me that the lefts best argument for legalizing MJ is tax revenue. Sure, fuel for a corrupt gargantuan bureaucracy is far more persuasive than personal liberty.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    pw-the context of the argument was taxation. If it makes you feel smug and comfy "that the left's best argument for legalizing MJ is tax revenue, so be it." Most on the left would argue, and do argue, that one should be free to smoke pot, period.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    With all this economic analysis, we're forgetting the real issue here - pot just isn't harmful enough to make it illegal. Anyone with half a brain who's worked in the criminal justice system knows this. Even most of the cops I deal with agree that we should just legalize it so they can spend more time dealing with violent crimes and truly harmful drugs like meth and crack.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#41)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:02 PM EST
    Well Roger, Looks like your the exception to the rule. If it was financially profitable to home brew alcohol, more people would do it. It is financially profitable to grow marijuana. How long does it take you to brew a years supply beer? PW, I guess you could count me along with your liberal friends. I understand the libertarian point of view, just don't agree with it for this issue. If that makes me hypocritical, I can live with that.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#42)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:02 PM EST
    How long does it take you to brew a years supply beer?
    For me? I lack the resources to brew that much beer;) Not too mention that the cost is actually pretty high, and you are limited to how much you are allowed to brew.

    Re: California Pot Growing Soars (none / 0) (#43)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:02 PM EST
    Patrick, Depending on the recipe, $20-$30 will brew a 5 gallon batch. It takes all day to brew, and then 1-2 months to ferment. For about $100, you can have a CO2 keg system to keep it. Luckily, I dont drink much.

    California Pot Growing Soars | 40 comments (40 topical)