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Poverty, Race and a National Shame

Poverty, Race and a National Shame. No, that's not from Move-On or Daily Kos. It's from Newsweek, and it's the cover story.

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    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    RNC Mehlman chimes in "We're going to work with them," Mr. Mehlman said. "This disaster showed how important it is that we do these things." The NYT article is titled Gulf Coast Isn't the Only Thing Left in Tatters; Bush's Status With Blacks Takes Hit and strangely enough is is written by Elisabeth Bumiller who only writes good things about Bush. Perhaps the tide is turning and the rats are jumping ship, although the first name mentioned after the headline is Rove. Perhaps she is forshadowing his demise, and subtly laying blame on him since he is soon to be dead duck. link

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    "It makes me think of what my friend Rev. Goat just told me: 'Let me say this before it goes any further; New Orleans didn't die of natural causes, she was murdered.'" -- Bluesman Dr. John Source: Associated Press

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    Everything Bush has done since 9/11 in the same of making us safer has been exposed as bullsh-t. And now the Republicans in spontaneous moments are revealing themselves as the clueless, classist racists they are --if you aren't a white guy or posing as one -then you are in the back of the line. And on CSpan they had some Republican clown who told this joke -- a woman was told her uncle was braindead but his heart was still beating and she said wow we've never had a Democrat in the family nice tribute to Terri Schiavo

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    The man telling the taste less joke was Arkansaw governor Huckabee and I guess even though he has lost a lot of weight he still has a fat head

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    The Bush White House, if nothing else, is a marketing machine, a triumph of style over substance. In the summer of 2002, Bush Chief of Staff Andy Card admitted as much, declaring the time for selling the planned war with Iraq was not yet ripe, "from a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August." Therein lies the problem for President Bush in the marketing of his administrationís abysmal response to hurricane Katrina. Bush has no product. Even worse, he has no pitch man, or worse still, pitch woman. In a nutshell, George W. Bush needs the Lisa Beamer of New Orleans. But sadly for President Bush, in New Orleans, the color of suffering - and heroism - is black. For the full story, see: "Where's the Lisa Beamer of New Orleans?"

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:42 PM EST
    so, poor people in NO are a shock to the folks here? did they migrate in after the Supreme Court gave the election to Bush? tell us your brilliant solution to poverty-is it giving a government check(my guess is many get one); access to health care-most anyone can get vaccinations, many are too lazy or choose not to do so(after all, the vaccines cause autism). The leaders of LA have been democrats-explain where Bush/republicans caused the problems that existed before the hurricane.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    As someone who has moved to and lived in 7 different states as an adult, I have never understood people who don't move to where the jobs are.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    Bush and Co. didn't cause poverty, it's just that their policies increased the number of people living in poverty. There is no solution to poverty absent socialism, but there are ways to minimize and make it easier to escape. Raising the minimum wage, reducing school class sizes, increased financial aid availability to name a few. In a strict capitalist economy, there will always be poor people. But there are things we can do to minimize it, or at least try.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    "no solutions to poverty absent socialism"? when a post starts from that premise, you know the poster is detached from reality. when nothing proposed as a solution presents an incentive for folks to work and progress, you truly have someone who has been asleep for a long time.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#10)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    Charley, as much as you would like to believe anyone can make it if they try hard enough, you are sorely deluded.
    "no solutions to poverty absent socialism"
    That statement I happen to agree with. But then again, I happen to think that the billions in corporate welfare handed out to corporations every year in this country have done nothing like what it was supposed to. So corporate welfare is out. In a country where it is more and more common to see jobs being shipped overseas (sarc, this goes back to you... next time I will just move to India, where the jobs are, you know... No big deal), it is disgusting to blame the less fortunate for the shortcomings of thoe with the means to make everyones life better.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    Johnny, personally, I think it's disgusting that you are being deliberately obtuse.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    Sarcastic writes "As someone who has moved to and lived in 7 different states as an adult, I have never understood people who don't move to where the jobs are." Well Sarc, let me give you poor people 101. Many of these people cannot afford to move. Many wouldn't know how to get a job once they got to another state. Many also take care of ailing family members who can't move for health reasons. And those are just a few of the many reasons why people can't hop from state to state, looking for work. You accuse johnny of being deliberately obtuse. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are being deliberately obtuse...because if it isn't deliberate, it's just stupidity.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    I'm always amazed that no wingnut has ever heard of the working poor.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#14)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    Sarc! Borrowed a word from PPJ I see... Good for you! I know that when all I elicit from a wrong winger is a snarky insult, I have done my job... Ernesto, they have heard of them, they just choose to ignore them...

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    then, I guess the northern migration of poor blacks from Mississippi, Arkansas and other southern states for purposes of finding employment in the Midwest and Northeast never happened. Far more impoverished and disrespected than the minorities of today, yet it happened. I would never accuse the left of being condescending to minorities, though.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    Yeah charley, the northern migration you mention had nothing to do with lynchings and jim crow.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    under the helpless standard you espouse, they shouldn't have been able to move, no matter what the cause. try again, maybe read some history while you're formulating your next diatribe.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    Charley, just because something is (just barely) humanely possible doesn't mean it should be required. Do think the northern move didn't involve terrible suffering? And why do you think so many stayed? It wasn't just for the climate... Your argument is like me saying "I just don't understand people who don't become lawyers or doctors." It's possible, after all. Even poor people can work hard and get scholarships. Some do. Should this then be the standard by which we judge everyone? If they don't put forth a superhuman effort AND succeed are they then failures?

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    And yeah, we're being very condescending by suggesting that life is hard on poor people. Good one.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    you are the ones being condescending-you justify your lack of faith in the poor. your recipe seems to combine no incentive to improve, excuses, handouts and good old socialism. I couldn't brew a better recipe for failure and continued misery. but, the benefit to the left of being able to look at oneself in the mirror admiringly outweighs any misery inflicted on others.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    charley reminds me of the guy who was born on second base and thought he hit a double! You fail to realize that some are born with an 0-2 count. All I'd like to see is a true level playing field where all who wish to put in the effort can suceed. But that is not the case. It is gonna take a little help from those who were born on second base to level the field.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    beautifully articulated point kdog, I couldn't agree more, and certainly couldn't put it more succinctly.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    a succinct encapsulization of the left looking at itself in the mirror admiringly while offering no solutions to the problem. you are absolutely correct, kdog. tell me-you propose telling people they are born losers who stand no chance of bettering themselves/what do you think the end result of your social experiment will be? as long as your self esteem remains high, it probably doesn't matter, eh.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    Regarding opportunity and social "class," clearly there are those who, as a result of major physical or mental impairment, cannot do for themselves. We're not talking about them. We are talking about the rest of us - that there are some people who accept being "poor," and some that don't. There are some that accept being "working class," and some that don't. There are some that accept being "white collar," and some that don't. And others that will only accept building great wealth. Almost everybody wants "more" of just about everything. Some choose to do what is neccessary to get it, and some others do not. kdog, there will never be a "level playing field" any where, any time, so why even spend a nonosecond thinking about it? The beauty of it is, if we choose to do it, we all can find the areas where the playing field is tilted in our favor. Combine that "tilt" with a heck of a lot of hard work and sacrifice, and the sky's the limit. Of course, you gotta choose to do it.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    sarc...yes, the field will never be level. But we can make it a little less slanted. We can try to do some things to bring those born at a disadvantage, those born into poverty through no choice of their own,to a place where they have the chance to work hard and prosper. Basically, give help to those born behind the 8-ball. It's not a hand-out, just some help. What's wrong with that? I never said born losers charley, I said born with a disadvantage that, with a little help from those born with an advantage, can be overcome.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    kdog, I think you didn't read my last paragraph. Regardless, "We can try to do some things to bring those born at a disadvantage, those born into poverty through no choice of their own,to a place where they have the chance to work hard and prosper." First of all, we are doing "some things," many things actually, just not the right things, obviously. Can you point out which gvt program has eliminated poverty? Secondly, often the main factor involved in making a real, permanent and positive change is choosing to buy a one-way bus ticket. As I said before, go where the jobs are. "It's not a hand-out, just some help. What's wrong with that?" Absolutely nothing. Trust me, true, real, permanent and positive "help" from those with an "advantage" is not gvt $. Take it from one who's been helped immensely by the mentoring of those who were "more advantaged" and who is now doing some mentoring of his own. But see, here's the key, you don't find this "help" on a street corner, on the TV, or on a lefty blog. You get up and go and find it. You initiate and you cultivate relationships with those who are comparitively "advantaged." If you don't consider your present lot in life to be "bad" enough for you to put in this effort, well, then, you accept where you are. Why would anyone want to spend time and effort helping you make a change if you yourself don't want to make a change badly enough to actually do something about it? Oddly enough, there are, literally, millions of "advantaged" people in this country who, if they get to know and respect you, would happily invest both time and even money in you. Funny thing about a lot of succesful people in this country is that they get an immense amount of pride and joy from helping others become successful.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    Sarc:
    Funny thing about a lot of succesful people in this country is that they get an immense amount of pride and joy from helping others become successful.
    How true! One of the worst things one person can do to another, in my opinion, is to breed cynicism and negativity... and convince another to believe that "you can't do that..."

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    sarc....absolutely, the person has to want help and search it out, no argument here. Some people are content being poor, heck, I've met homeless people who are content being homeless. I'm not concerned with able bodied adults as much as children born into the cycle. Children who only know poverty through no fault of their own. I'd like our govt. to do anything and everything in their power to help children born into poverty escape it. I don't think the issue has gotten the attention it deserves. To continue with my baseball analogy, if govt. programs can help the kid born with an 0-2 count get to a 3-2 count, the rest is up to the kid. I can't think of a better way to spend money than spreading hope.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    kdog, while agree with your sentiments, I disagree with your (gvt) solution. In my experience it is generally cultural issues which hold people back, both literally and metaphorically, from "moving to where the jobs are." And it is also my general experience that gvt is, by definition, almost completely ineffectual at having a positive effect on our cultural weaknesses. Cultural leaders, not the gvt, needs to motivate and teach "their" people, especially the parents, to do those things that are neccessary to be done in order to break themselves and their children out of the cycle of poverty. For children, parents are the 99% of the equation, no gvt can replace the influence of parents.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:46 PM EST
    Oh, c-law, I just saw your pleasant little post from last evening. You can save your lessons. As a working adult, I lived below the national poverty line for several years. In the early 80's I bought a one-way ticket to Tucson from NJ and was getting paid to swing a hammer the day ater I arrived. Nobody's talking about those who can't work or relocate. Don't be obtuse.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:46 PM EST
    sarc-Everyone is talking about those who can't relocate, whether they had jobs or not they certainly are/were poor.. That is the context here.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:46 PM EST
    Well, squeaky, from my reading of the comments, it is readily apparent that only c-law said anything about those who can't work or relocate. In fact, I think I was pretty specific in saying that I wasn't talking about those who can't work, as well as discussing wealth and poverty in general. I will admit, upon review, that my initial comment could be construed by some as "hopping" from state to state, but not by someone who was able to comprehend the overall point I was making. There is a big difference between those things we literally can't do and those we choose not to do.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:46 PM EST
    Sarc, you wrote "As someone who has moved to and lived in 7 different states as an adult, I have never understood people who don't move to where the jobs are." Unless you qualify that right up front it sounds like the same old "people are poor because they're lazy" argument. I'm not being obtuse. Just calling you on your BS.

    Re: Poverty, Race and a National Shame (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:46 PM EST
    sarc, nowhere in your first (the one I responded to) post did you refer to the fact that you weren't talking about people who couldn't relocate. You just said you couldn't understand those who didn't. Also, if we aren't talking about people who would have a great deal of difficulty relocating, then we aren't talking about the vast majority of poor people. Can you comprehend the overall point I'm making?