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Sunday Open Thread

I can see from the comments people are itching to go off-topic. I'm headed to the jail to visit a client for the afternoon, so here's an open thread. Please play nice.

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  • Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    One of my comments on the Walmart thread got tossed for being off-topic. That comment was on the politics and history of free markets. I don't see how that can be off-topic on a thread about Walmart? But I think I am about to sign off here on Talk Left anyway. I don't think I could be much more clear that I don't see a function for Jim on this site. He stays around unlimited and contributes nothing in my estimation. That's a decision that TL makes and it's fine, and I can walk away, but I encourage any of the other progressives who frequent this spot to reflect on whether Jim disrupts this site or prevents it from becoming an echo chamber.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Got kicked into this screen again: Classifieds Click Here for Rates When I hit the back button. That's a second issue that seems beyond resolution.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Aaron on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Just laying aroundis listening to Zeppelin... wishing I was in jail. That's how you know your life really sucks, when you'd rather be in jail.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Classifieds Click Here for Rates
    I get that too, but only when using my home PC and especially when loading various TL pages into multiple tabs. Never at work. Same OS, same browser on each.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by nolo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    I admire -- but do not envy -- my colleagues whose clients have to be visited in jail. Closest I ever got was having to defend the deposition of a client in a wrongful death case(or, more precisely, a statutory beneficiary of the wrongful death action) while the guy was in the county jail awaiting sentencing on some kind of sexual misconduct charge, apparently involving the babysitter. It was weird.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Per TL -
    "Way too long and off topic, save it for an open thread (and shorten it.)"
    Okay. 30% less. webmacher - I will try and answer your question. We are still suffering the effects of the Vietnam war. The Left used the war as an excuse to attack society, and seized control of the Democratic Party. Their roots were in the communist/socialist parties, and since “progressive” had not worked, they took “liberal” as their identifier. Carter was the watershed of that time. As President, he exhibited a weakness what was very troublesome. Reagan’s optimism easily beat Carter, forced the country to beat back inflation, and defined the Soviet’s and put policies in place that destroyed them. The economy boomed and Bush was easily elected when pitted against a NE mayor who was identified as weak on defense, for high taxes, weak on law and order, and a “liberal.” Bush won the war, increased taxes, the economy dipped and he lost to a likable good old boy who promised a tax cut. It helped that the media was solidly behind him, and tagged Bush with being “out of touch,” but the real killer was the economy and the increased taxes. Clinton’s legacy is spotted. He had many scandals in his administration, most of which, like the current Rove brouhaha, were of no importance. But, the country was starting to see things it didn’t like. Waco and Ruby Ridge demonstrated what big government could do. Many didn’t like it when a little Cuban boy was seized by INS agents at night with weapons after crashing into a private home. Unlike past problems, these lingered because the pictures were on the Internet. Stories about teachers wanting to know how many guns student’s parents had at home went on for weeks. Clinton didn’t help with his personal actions. And by 11/2000 many people knew the Internet bubble was going to burst. Enter Gore. Who was dumb enough to endorse Clinton as “the greatest President ever,” yet refused his help in the election. Gore should have won in a walk. But the country was just uneasy enough that he lost a squeaker. Did Bush sell fear in ’04? I didn’t see any overt selling. Nothing like I have seen Demos do like claiming the Repubs will destroy SS/Medicare. Kerry was hampered because he had to try and placate his base, which is radical left and anti-war. That opened the defense question. Kerry went to Vietnam, but when he returned he identified himself with the anti-war groups. His actions weren’t well received then, and still aren’t by many. The RatherGate memos finished him off. The Demo’s problems are easy to see. The economy is good, we are at war, and Americans hate to lose. Rove’s actions can be criticized, but Wilson’s actions are seen, by many, as worse. And, unfortunately for the Demos, there are more of them than there are of anti-war Demos.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    I got this over at Billmon's blog, its from The American Conservative dated July 22. Just throwing it in here for shets and giggles. Bolding is mine.
    The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons. Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites. Many of the targets are hardened or are deep underground and could not be taken out by conventional weapons, hence the nuclear option. As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States. Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing -- that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack -- but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections.


    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    CA and Roy: next time you see that happen, go to the "View" menu in your browser and pick "Source". copy the entire window of code that comes up and then e-mail it to me at mike (at) mikeditto.com. When you send that, also copy the URL of the page you were on and send that to me, as well as the exact time of day you accessed the page. Given that the problem is highly localized (to you two as far as I know), I'm guessing your browser cache is getting too full or something. But in the off chance that there is a server problem, the above information will help me read the logs to see if anything is amiss.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    I have a question, about Che Guevara. I was walking around at a local shopping mall and there are tons of kiosks with Che stuff, but one in particular caught my eye. It was the standard Che picture, but with “Street Life” written on his beret. Someone please explain to me, being a guerilla warrior living in the jungles, what street life was he leading? This just reaffirms my theory that if someone had no knowledge of history they would think Che Guevara was a rapper based on these shirt kiosks.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Puregonzo188, Though he came from an upper middle class family, and was a licensed MD, Che always eschewed the comfortable life. Even at the height of his power in Cuba in the early 60's, he never accepted a salary for his work and lived a very astere life. He took enough only to keep his wife, ex and kids housed and fed. Otherwise, he was a workaholic, totally dedicated to developing an egalitarian society in Cuba, and then all of the americas. I doubt he was much of a rapper type, as he had no sense of rhythm. His image is often used as a generic symbol of resistance to authorities or governments.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    I see some overlap between some rappers and Guevera's fans, in glamorizing murder. Or at least glossing it over if it's part of something you like, such as catchy beats or egalitarian society.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Mr. Ditto - Given that the problem is highly localized (to you two as far as I know) No, I get it too. Not all the time which may depend upon which browser I'm in perhaps; don't know. Usually I'm in Firefox.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Pure - Many of us don't find the real Che as appealing as the faux Che.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Kitt-- so that's three of our 10,000 daily visitors. :-) Same goes for you--if you see it, send me the source, the URL and the time. A propos...there is an upgrade for MovableType that will come out in the next few weeks that should speed things up, add some reliability, and add some new features, too. Stay tuned...

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    And many of us find him much more honorable than the criminal that we currently have as president of the United States. Let's compare: Che's courts executed convicted criminals of Bautista's regime, the mafia and spies for the US government. They were themselves murderers, torturers, rapists, extortionists and thieves. Any student of Guevara knows what he stood for. You can peruse the truth, not the Babaloo lies, by reading pp. 386-390 of Jon Lee Annderson's book "Che: a Revolutionary life". If you want the truth. By comparison, Bush's weapons of mass destruction have caused the deaths and maimings of over 100,000 people who never committed a crime in their lives. And we all know what HE stands for. Power and profits. We need a revolution (again).

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Roy wrote:
    I see some overlap between some rappers and Guevera's fans, in glamorizing murder.
    But it's all good however when it's being done by someone you approve of like Bush, right? You're no different than the ones you complain about.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Lefties and civil libertarians may have something to cheer about regarding John Roberts.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Che writes:
    They were themselves murderers, torturers, rapists, extortionists and thieves.
    Che, the person executed by Che shooting him in the back of the head was a 14`year old boy. Brave idol you have there.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Jim, I cite bonafide research, based upon records released in 1997 by the Cuban govt., press reports and interviews with eye witnesses, all consistent with Che's own writings, which I'm sure you've never read at any length. You cite "a Cuban gentleman". Jim reminds me of hypocrites who, finding themselves in Baha for the weekend, have no qualms about lighting up a Cohiba or sipping some Havana Club. By the way, Bacardi is trying to steal the "Havana Club" label's commercial rights from the true distillers in Cuba. The US compassion government is also holding up a Pastors for Peace hunanitarian convoy trying to take supplies to Cuba via Mexico. All of this occurs because the US government is still crapping it's pants over communism. What a bunch of raging pussies we really are that we should have to isolate one averaged sized island over an ideology. So, if we can't dominate them, we have to destroy them. And pllleassse don't give me any human rights lectures. The US is on any and all lists that Cuba is on. More hypocrisy. Sorry to run on TL, but it's an open thread. Opportunity knocks.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    "We are still suffering the effects of the Vietnam war." Yeah, boohoo. You ought to check out how the innocent Laotians (and others) are still suffering the effects of that GENOCIDE. "The Left used the war as an excuse to attack society," 'Society' being racist wars and segregation. "and seized control of the Democratic Party." Oh my! Genocidal cultures don't deserve support; and neither do genocidal PARTIES like yours. 128,000 dead human beings, 99.9% innocent. How many geniuses and unique individuals have been wasted by the liar-traitor Genghiz Bush.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Che's Lounge, I was well aware of Che's background, and that he was a doctor. I also realize he was not a rapper, or something to do with the sale of shoes. I just also have to laugh at all the Che stores in mall kiosk and shoes store. Because I am sure when Che died he really wanted us all to buy more shoes. By the way, you mention the book Che: A Revolutionary Life. I've seen in it in bookstores a couple of times and thought about picking it up, though I've read mixed reviews of it. Some say it’s a bit long and tedious and concentrates mainly on his military strategy and battles. What did you think of it? Any good? As for PPF, I am well aware of the controversy around Che Guevara.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    A couple of points about the redirect to the classified ad screen: First here is the url, if that is any help: http://talkleft.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=11620 Second, Mike Ditto says: Kitt-- so that's three of our 10,000 daily visitors. :-) Well, I don't know how the other two who have posted the problem feel about being dismissed as just one of 10,000 daily visitors, but I have been a regular here for several years and a regular contributor. I feel very slighted by this comment. Now the problem may be in my browser settings (I use Firefox) or it may be in the server or the apps you are running but either way I have not felt at all valued by the responses that you have posted, Mike. Aside from the glitchy nature of the "classified ad" problem which I have posted numerous times now, I also have the added benefit of being treated like 1/10,0000 of a consideration. Think it through. Is that the best response you can come up with? I have tried to view the source, I get a blank screen and the timer icon.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Che writes:
    I cite bonafide research, based upon records released in 1997 by the Cuban govt.,
    And you consider those believable? Thanks for the Monday morning laugh. It will be interesting to see the records released when Castro dies. For an example of what to expect, see the records released after the fall of the Soviets. Pure - There is no controversy. Che was a stone cold killer. The boy was probably killed because of who his father was. You know, root out and kill all the family members. Standard operation by the Mafia, and by the Soviets and their “wanabees.” PIL writes:
    and seized control of the Democratic Party." Oh my!
    And the path has been down hill ever since. Can you connect the dots? DA - Your anti-war position is as well known as my pro-war. Your attempt to compare Vietnam to Iraq is standard Leftist fare. Vietnam could have been won if Nixon had bombed, and bombed again and bombed again. He didn't, and for that I blame him. When combat starts you should always use whatever force you have to win the battle with the minimum number of casualties of your forces. We shall see what happens in this war. One of the larger differences is that the Internet has pulled one of the fangs of the Left, the MSM. And, so far, the body politic has rejected the poison of the anti-war left and decided that this war is important, and is one that we must win.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    PPJ still writing fiction I see or is it satire?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Well, I don't know how the other two who have posted the problem feel about being dismissed as just one of 10,000 daily visitors
    As a software engineer I make similar comments about customers who spend thousands of dollars. It's just a matter of prioritization; why risk breaking something that works for 9,997 people if only 3 are having trouble?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    CA: I certainly didn't intend my comment to be dismissive, only to point out that when a problem only happens 3/10,000 of the time that it is basically impossible to troubleshoot from a server perspective. With some detailed information, such as the information I requested above, I can wade through the massive server logs to see if there are any errors reported--a time consuming, tedious job that I am more than happy to do, so I don't think it's fair to characterize me as blowing you off. If the problem is with your browser or your computer, I'm happy to help you troubleshoot but obviously there is nothing I can do to fix it on our end. That would be like expecting CNN to do something about your TV that's on fire. In the mean time, I recommend that you take the following remedial steps: 1. Make sure you have the latest version of the browser. A new version of Firefox was just released in the past 2 weeks. Older versions of Firefox have bugs in their "prefetching" code that cause problems with dynamically-generated pages, such as MovableType's comments page. 2. Clear the browser cache. You can find that in the firefox preferences on the Privacy tab. 3. Make sure your hard disk has at least 15% free space, and if you're on Windows make sure that the disk is defragmented sufficiently. Hope that helps!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    CA: Also, we have no "classified ads screen". You are not being redirected. What you are seeing is a partial rendering of the page--a snippet from the left column. Either your browser is receiving the whole page but not rendering it, or our server is not sending the whole page. But I can't begin to make that determination without some hint as to where to find your hits amongst the millions of others in the log files.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Puregonzo1188, Yes it is long, and you really need caffiene for some parts. Anderson is very thorough. Che kept copious notes nearly all of his adult life. They reveal his failures as well as successes. I believe his downfall was rushing to battle against the slaver's of south america without a well equipped army to back him. But at least he saved Cuba from being another Haiti. And for that we embargo them forty years later. Again, because of one or two individual boogeymen. Hell, we gave the Nazis better treatment. I never had a Che T- shirt until after I read Anderson's book five years ago (mid forties). One was a gift, the other I bought a month ago. The boy was probably killed because of who his father was. You know, root out and kill all the family members. Jim, do you really think that you can make your case with presumptions? You underestimate the intelligence of the visitors here.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    Vietnam could have been won if Nixon...
    Haha... the usual nut-case myth.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:35 PM EST
    We are at a crossroads withe central and south america. These countries, which have no military capabilities of any significance, are rapidly undergoing a shift in their government philosophies. The control of natural and human resources is being nationalized in the Cuban model (shifting of wealth to internal programs and social services and not to Wall St.). Countries like Venezuela are fiercely opposed to US intervention in their affairs. Ecuador is following. Brazil and Uraguay are also electing socialist governments. The question becomes, how do we want our government to deal with these changes? Do we want a continuation of CIA/USAID programs of destabilization and "regime change" which has been the hallmark of our foreign policies for decades, and serves only to make money for multinationals and their political lobbyists? Look where these policies of confrontation have gotten us. We need a significant regime change in this country if we don't want to become another Soviet Union.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Che - I don't have to make a case. The survivors of this killer have done that. The actual government records that will come forth after Castro is gone will merely cast them in stone. DA - I'm unsure what the Japan poll is supposed to mean. As for the US part, without the complete poll information, question, qualifier, etc., I put no particular belief in it. I also note that when I say "war," I am referring to the War On Terror, of which 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq are but battles, as was Korea and Vietnam during the Cold War. Quoting Kissinger making excuse makes me laugh. After Nixon was gone the US congress, led by the anti-war Democrats withdrew support and the North knew that the US would not provide any support so they attacked with impunity. That is a stain on our country's honor which will take centuries to erase. And yes, more bombing would have helped. Hanoi should have been leveled and the harbor closed. This would not have required nuclear weapons. BTW – Hackworth makes a point oft repeated by the Left, the so-called withdrawal strategy. Unless you consider the operation to be a “raid,” the only strategy is to win and leave when you desire. I have never believed that we lost in Vietnam. We left. Vast difference. Vietnam created Carter who finally managed to demonstrate to the American people what the cost of losing is. Because even though we didn’t lose, the rest of the world thought we did. That created Reagan who finished the affair. But we are still suffering from the effects. The radical Moslems believe that if they just hang on, we will leave. We taught them that. Everyday the anti-war Left reaffirms the terrorists’ belief that the Left can force a political change in the US and that they will win. BTW – I mentioned the poll you reference to a friend who also had never heard of it. He did make one comment I thought was funny. “Hell, maybe they’re talking about me. ‘Cause I think they need to be bombing Syria right now. I think they aren’t doing enough.”

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    I don't have to make a case. The survivors of this killer have done that.
    Jim, sometimes it's awfully hard to be on the same side as you.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    roy - If you don't believe that Che was a stobe killer, we aren't on the same side.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    roy - In the interest of clarity, that's "stone cold killer."

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Dark A.... PPJ, there is no basis in fact or logic to say that increased bombing in Vietnam would've 'won' the war. As a guy who actually flew B-52 missions over Viet Nam I respectfully disagree! When we finally decided to bomb Hanoi in Dec of 1972..it only took 11 days for them to beg us to stop and bring them to the barganing table. I flew 52 missions over Laos, Cambodia & Nam and 9 times out of 10 we were bombing nothing. "suspected truck park areas...."suspected troop concentrations...etc..etc. We had our hands tied. We couldn't bomb above the DMZ for years and Hanoi was definately off limits. You can't fight a (limited) war that way. All that did was get a lot of Americans killed that shouldn't have been. I agree with PPJ... we didn't lose that war (we never lost a battle) but instead we gave up. Congress cut off the money and that was that. The American people got tired of us pussy footin around and rightfully so. It never should have happened and we need to make sure it doesn't happen in Iraq. But I can see the signs... not because we can't win...but because our hands are once again tied. Heavin forbid we actually treat our enemies (sworn to kill us all) with anything but kid gloves. The left will see that this is a failure.. I'm betting the farm on that!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    BB - The Left will never admit that they had a part in the withdrawal of our troops. DA in particular becomes disturbed whenever I mention that General Giap has said that they lost Tet, but after listening to news reports that said they won, decided that they would never again face a major battle with the US, but simply hang on and wait for a political victory. I think they know, but won't admit it, even to themselves, as a guilt avoidance mechanism. But nothing really changes. Jane Fonda has just announced an anti-war tour.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Gulf of Tonkin. WMD Wars based upon fabrications. We didn't lose in Vietnam because there was nothing TO lose. The impact of our lack of success on the worldwide balance of power has been negligible. It was a total waste of millions of lives.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Jim,
    If you don't believe that Che was a stobe killer, we aren't on the same side.
    I've been calling him a murderer since yesterday. The difference is, after Che's Lounge posted something citing genuine research, I stopped making lazy unsupported claims. I asked myself whether it was worthwhile to do a little research to support (or maybe undermine) my claim, and decided not to bother. Whereas this:
    I don't have to make a case. The survivors of this killer have done that.
    is just a cop-out argument. It's a "I don't need evidence, somebody else has evidence" statement. It's a borderline case of begging the question. The coexistance of this:
    But I think I am about to sign off here on Talk Left anyway. I don't think I could be much more clear that I don't see a function for Jim on this site.
    and this:
    I don't have to make a case. The survivors of this killer have done that.
    is downright poetic.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    In CA, a (tentative) victory. The attempt by the vote-fraud Rs to forceably redistrict mid-decade, via a rigged initiative process, has been tossed off the ballot. Why? Because they submitted a different law to the AG than they circulated to petition-signers. That plum gone rotten, Gov. Vote-Fraud of Austria has called a $50 MILLION special election one month before we get our recount rights back (to whatever degree), to accomplish two entirely legislatable purposes: 1) delaying teacher tenure; 2) complex state budgeting rule changes. Neither topic is appropriate to a plebicite. Both are technical issues. The public won't understand the issues or the complexities of the intended laws -- this is yet another misuse of our government by the felon Governator.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Btw, excellent arm-chair General John Bolton is on record saying that the Vietnam war was LOST by 1970. Historical revisionist racist views notwithstanding.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Dark A.... BB, the bombing brought them to the table, but they didn't quit their resolve to take the whole of Vietnam for themselves, which in the end they did. Very true..... because we gave up! All they had to do is wait us out....which is what PPJ was saying about Iraq

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    roy - If I upset you I apologize, but quoting official Cuban statements about Che is hardly research. And yes, I dismiss them out of hand because of the source. That's not lazy, just common sense. Who Che was and what he did is common knowledge, but trying to convince someone who thinks he is a hero is a total waste. Sorry you think we should be trying to convert, or prove, something such as this. As you know, I typically post a lot of links, but, in the end, at the top the little screen it says: "Comments." As I said, I'll rest my case on what will be made available when Castro dies and his government falls. I think we all have a good chance at being around. I would also refer you to all the things that were denied by the Left in regards to the Soviets, see Veroa Project, as a great example. See: “Venona,” John Earl Hayes and E. Harvey Klehr, Yale University Press. It has about 150 pages of notes and references. DA - Every time I bring up what Giap said, you call him a Commie General. Why do you hate Commie Generals? ;-) Of course the fact is many people say things, even Commie's, that reflect what they thought, meant, did, etc. As for the guilt thing, if the shoe fits, etc., etc. And were you quoting me by inference? I never said that. Typical trick. And snitty? Actually I thought you have been a sweetheart today. PIL - You don't believe Bolton, do you? Wow! Oh wait. I guess you do for the same reason I believe Giap. BB - A sad fact. I have been making that point for 24 months and all it does is make'em angry.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    BB thinks
    The left will see that this is a failure..
    Already looking for someone else to pin this misadventure on, BB? You have no more faith in your leaders than that?

    Bush/Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, and the rest of this gang of thieves. Those are the ones you can pin a failure in Iraq on. They don't need any help from the left.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Yes, Dark Avenger, the Bat-Trek-Skywalker code-signal ring is in full operation now. Can we take his milk money too? ;)

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    DA - Do you believe everything Giap says? If so, you agree with his comment about the anti-war protestors. Congratulations. I think I hear a choir in the background singing, "He sees the light, he sees the light.... no more darkness…” And I was using your word, "Commie."
    If you think that I was seriously implying that you'd written those words, all I can say is, take your meds.
    Can't go a whole day without a snarky attack, can you. And take you serious? Good heavens, no. Why in the world would I do that? But I am glad to know that along with shooting me you now plan to rob me. I'll try to get the hall monitor to guard me. ;-)

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    Sorry. No milk money. I only drink 30 year old single malt. BTW - Did anyone notice that it takes two young lefties to rob one senior social liberal?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    I would add that sometimes that sheep turns out to be a wolf. Not that I'm referring to anyone in particular...

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    roy - If I upset you I apologize, but quoting official Cuban statements about Che is hardly research. And yes, I dismiss them out of hand because of the source.
    And neither is a quote from an Anti-Che article posted in a blog where people have such names as Kill Castro or describes itself as "an island on the net without a bearded dictator." Not only that but the story told Pierre San Martin (whoever he me be) could be well true. I'm not going to say Che didn't kill a 12-14 year-old-boy, but I'm not going to say he did. I just don't know. Sorry, but Pierre San Martin just isn't reliable enough for me. People who demonize Che are just as unreliable as those who herofiy them. And that’s why I said "controversy" because that what I call conflicting stories from equally biased sources.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:36 PM EST
    DA - You don't get to set the rules of the debate. Giap said this, Giap said that. My point is that if you believe one, why not the other? The answer is simple, and requires no posturing. He said both. I think he was right about the anti-war folks and his strategy because he was speaking directly to his history. The second quote is an old generalized power to the people thing. So what does that prove? That I am supposed to agree with both because I agree with one? Your logic is as flawed as your grasp of history. The grown ups are done talking, so go find cheetah and practice being a pack member.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Pure - Arguing about the cruelty of Che is like arguing about the sun coming up tomorrow. Look to the east. As I said. Using "offical" Cuban documents is neither research nor reassuring. Remember, if you are old enough, all of the "offical" stories put out by the Soviet Union.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    And look at all of the "official" stories put out by the US. All governments are guilty of using the propaganda tool.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    "PIL - You don't believe Bolton, do you? Wow!" It was no doubt his COWARDICE showing. That's standard equipment for Young Republicans. Jane Fonda actually went there, to protest the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians. She's a far better man than he, or than you, Jim. Everyone in CodePink has more gonads than your lying brethren with their tiny testes tucked well up into their scrota when it comes to the sacrifices part of the equation.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    cheetah - Thanks for making my point. Thing is, there aren't any offical US government stories about Che. PIl - Sometimes when I read you I understand where the Right gets the phrase, Loony Left. Oh well. We'll just forget that I did my ten years, you have done nothing and Fonda committed treason. Now it looks like she may want a double dip. Have a nice'un.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Jim, I never said anything to state the credibility of the Cuban documents; I merely said that your source was equally as biased.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    I merely said that your source was equally as biased.
    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Check that. I'm still trying to find Anderson's citzenship. It may be England.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Posted by Jim: "Sometimes when I read you I understand where the Right gets the phrase, Loony Left." That's odd, since in my case it would have to be 'Looney Liberal Democrat.' I'm not a leftist. Nor, for that matter, is the reference to one of the most beautiful of migratory birds particularly apt. "Oh well. We'll just forget that I did my ten years," Yeah, and people who think that just being IN the military is equivalent to serving their country have a screw loose. "you have done nothing and Fonda committed treason." I was protesting Saddam Hussein back when you were SUPPORTING HIM. Jane Fonda was protesting genocide. That's better service to her country than ten years as the plaything of the Corporate Pentagon.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    PPJ
    Thing is, there aren't any official US government stories about Che.
    How about here and here. Going to pretend you didn't see this post?

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Che's Lounge, Anderson lives in England, and is a correspondent for The New Yorker.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Terms like "Looney left" and, my favorite, "Dummy", are so-o-o-o-o-o mature. Yeah, right PPJ.

    Dark Avenger, I've been telling him he seems overly tired lately, and recommended more naps, less meds. Just trying to be helpful.

    I think his problem is that he knows his dear leader is a liar, and that things may be catching up with him. It must be hard trying to come up with false praise for people who you know aren't worthy of any. And just look at those poll numbers. They're enough to give PPJ nightmares. Then, as you said, looking under the bed for terrorists and looney leftists, just knowing they must be there somewhere.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    What does Jim contribute to the discussion? Why not limit him to 4 posts per day so that progressives can share ideas and viewpoints without the endless sniping from the quintessential social liberal.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    PPJ- You are an insipid person and need to dissapear. You are a constant thread hijacker and administration apologist on a site for the "Left". You should go argue in the mirror, so that I don't have to always be reminded about how bigoted and arrogant the right is when I surf a site that I otherwise like. Every other poster here, right or left has something to say... you are an echo chamber of lies and snark, and I am sure I am not the only one wishing you were gone.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    I just got slammed to the Click Here classified ads again. It happened around 7:10-11 am pst if you want to look at it Mike Ditto. I upgraded to the most recent version of Firefox last night. That apparently was not the problem. I think you underestimate the problem. There are three of us on this one thread who get this screen. You don't know how many others are getting it. If you are really interested in knowing, open a thread for a couple of days or a week just for that problem. I will run hard disk utilities, defragment, etc.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Just got it again at 7:16 url: http://talkleft.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=11620 When I try to view the page source, I get a blank screen and the busy icon symbol. The browser apparently cannot resolve the source info.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    Got it again at 7:18. Same url. My cache is empty. This is the only place on the web where I have this problem which is why I think it is site specific. None of that is notable of course if only "3 of 10K visitors" experience the problem. I appreciate the "sort of" apology for that comment, but the attitude and desire to minimize the problem continues to rankle. I just generally don't spend time where I am not valued.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    V2Marty - This one is an Open Thread. Hope you know what that means. For hijacking, go read your comments in the Jane Fonda thread. BTW - Since you want to trade insults with someone who disagrees with you on foreign policy, may I say that you are only clueless, as you so amply demonstrate in the Fonda thread. If you weren’t you would be smart enough to know that I am a social liberal and support things like universal health care, gay rights, think we need a new drug policy, etc… But no, because I don’t toe the Left’s line, especially on national defense, you get your jockey’s in a wad and start making snarky remarks. That, dear boy, is why the Demos keep losing national elections, and the Repubs increase their majority in Congress and Bush will appoint two, maybe three SC justices. cheetah – How’s the pack this am? Gonna rob me this noon? Will you hide behind the bushes at the school house door? Don’t forget to bring help as I am not yet in a wheelchair and don’t use a walker. As for Che, I don’t consider them “official” government position papers as you will get from Cuba and was released by the Soviets. As I said let’s just wait until Fidel is smoking stogies with the Devil and we get the real records. In the meantime, please feel free to ignore all the eyewitness testimony, etc. As for “Loony Left,” yes. Sometimes PIL’s rants define the term. Especially his genocide rants and the vote counting rants. As for “dear leader,” I thought Mao was dead. Hasn’t anyone told you? CA – Instead of complaining, go back to my post at 3:21, which was a detailed reply to webmacher’s question. I note that you didn’t have any response, either due to a lack of knowledge or desire. From that point DA took it into some specifics on Vietnam… Che (the Real) was brought in. So come on in. The water’s fine. PIL writes:
    “I was protesting Saddam Hussein back when you were SUPPORTING HIM”.
    PIL. If you are going to argue a point you should try and make reasonable statements. One of which would be, “I was protesting Saddam back when you were USING HIM to fight our, at that time, mutual enemies.” Now I know you hate almost anything the US has done in the past 30 years, but please, exhibit enough sophistication to understand geopolitics and the strategy of getting someone else, whenever possible, to do your fighting. It worked well in WWII, and worked well in the ME. In both cases our “allies” became our enemies, but hey, they were before we used ‘em.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    DA - More threats of physical viloence, eh? A pattern starts to appear.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    George and Benedict, all dressed up and looking even better than the real thing!

    Poor PPJ. Feeling a little ganged up on today? Oh, too bad. Maybe you should remember to bring your manners when you come to a site that has LEFT in it's title!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:37 PM EST
    "Gonna rob me this noon?" PPJ, I don't believe I want or need anything you've got!

    "Death threat"? Need I say it? Delusional is as delusional does. That's what Forrest Gump would say.

    PPJ, learn to play nice, or take your toys and go home!

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:39 PM EST
    Che’s Lounge I was referring to you or Anderson’s book in specific. I was merely stating that people who make Che the center of hero worship are just as biased as those who try to demonize him. Che was human and I’m sure he’s done some cruel things and I’m sure he’s done some humane things. Whether he did more cruel or humane is out of my knowledge along with to what level did his cruelty/humanity extend. I really don’t know since most sources of this have some sort of agenda (Che-Hero Worship or Demonizing Castro’s Cuba). As for Anderson’s book I have not read, but am under the impression from reviews it is pretty unbiased and pretty truthful.

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:39 PM EST
    PPJ- You are an insipid person and need to dissapear. You are a constant thread hijacker and administration apologist on a site for the "Left". You should go argue in the mirror, so that I don't have to always be reminded about how bigoted and arrogant the right is when I surf a site that I otherwise like.
    I stand by this statement still. Just like I am going to ask why you think supporting a prez/administration that is opposed to "universal health care", "gay rights", "new drug policy" can qualify as liberal. You just cite these three things so that you can claim the higher ground, but I never see you arguing for gay rights or mj legalization, or healthcare reform or anything liberal at all. You are suckling at the Neocon teat and you know it. BTW: Demos keep losing (2 elections) because there are a lot of really stupid people voting republican (you are one).

    Re: Sunday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:01:41 PM EST
    HEY DEFENSE ATTORNEYS, Question; How long after a peace officer obtains probable cause to arrest a suspect, may he or she physically make that arrest? Hours, days, minutes? and what points and authorities are you using? I want to settle a dispute.