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Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse

The Pentagon today acknowledged - for the first time- that a soldier mistreated the Koran.

The Pentagon has confirmed for the first time that a U.S. soldier deliberately kicked a Guantanamo Bay prisoner's Quran in violation of the military's rules for handling the Muslim holy book.

In other confirmed incidents, prison guards threw water balloons in a cell block, causing an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; a guard's urine splashed on a detainee and his Quran; an interrogator stepped on a Quran during an interrogation; and a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.

The findings are among the results of an investigation last month by Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, the commander of the detention center in southeastern Cuba. The probe was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report -- later retracted -- that a U.S. soldier had flushed one Guantanamo detainee's Quran down a toilet.

USA Today has more. And Eric Alterman has a new column in The Nation on the Newsweek story - and why the Government shouldn't have "declared a jihad" and intervened.

The Bush Administration, in its campaign to eliminate democratic accountability, has consistently sought to undermine already faltering public confidence in the media, thereby further weakening the press's ability to fulfill its essential role in our delicate system of checks and balances. The jihad against Newsweek, like that against Dan Rather and others, seizes upon honest media mistakes to discredit the very idea of neutral, reality-based reporting. The longer the mainstream media fail to awaken to this unhappy reality, the greater will be our collective impotence when they finally realize it's time to fight back. For that reason--and despite its error--Newsweek's fight is our fight too.

Update: Read Billmon's take on the Administration's use of information warfare and the Newsweek fallout.

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  • Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#1)
    by DonS on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Despite the usual diversionary tactics from the administration apologists among the commenters soon to follow (why do they hate America), it would be irresponsible not to observe that -- with the pentagon admitting this much -- can we not infer that this is but the tip of the iceberg?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#2)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    "a guard's urine splashed on a detainee and his Quran"
    How, exactly, did that happen? It just "splashed" on him?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#3)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    DonS - As someone who thinks we are being far to nice to these folks, I certainly hope not.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#4)
    by DonS on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    PPJ, I had you in mind as an apologist, but erased it from my post. Thanks for confirming the obvious.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#5)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    The problem, PPJ, is when the political blowback problem escalated into a "clash of civilizations" which escaltes into a "religous war." . . ...this is the war that never ends. Yes, it goes on and on, my friends. Some people started fighting it not know what it was, And they'll continue fighting it forever just because... This is the war that never ends.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#6)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    DonS - No problem. Always glad to help out. DP - In case you missed it, the war started years ago with a series of attacks by the radical Moslems. The question now is, who will win it? Playing nicey nice with radicals won't get the job done.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#7)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Guns, tanks, bombs... all they do is confuse and antagonize people. ...there's no winning. Kinda like AIDS, we've got to learn to live with it.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#8)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    We have a problem. There are literally millions of people who will riot and kill, or riot to the point of getting themselves killed, over the mistreatment of a book. The same folks yawn when some of their own religionists kill masses of others of their own religionists. Including desecrating Korans wholesale when blowing up mosques. Millions of them also think Death to America is just dandy. I can see no way of satisfying these differing views without either going nuts or completely surrendering. Odd fact: Muslim-American high school kid, parents are professionals from Saudi Arabia, goes to her history teacher and complains that the story of el Cid is demeaning to her religion. Gets an alternate assignment. Later thanks the teacher and hopes that their religious differences won't keep them from working together. RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES? HUH? There is going to be a very big problem connecting with people who think like this. Would a Christian high school kid think the story of the Muslim conquest of Spain was demeaningn to his religion? Never cross his mind, nor would he think it a justification for thinking ill of Islam. These people think differently, and if we don't understand that, we will have some problems.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#9)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Bush denies that any of this abuse ever occurred (according to bush Amnesty International's allegations were "absurd"). What I find interesting is tha my rightwing friends like PPJ and Richard Aubrey do not deny these allegations but, instead try to rationalize or justify the abuse. However, to rationalize these acts assumes that these allegations are true. In other words, even the rightwing supporters of Bush no longer believe him.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    LOL, nice job with the hearts and minds people......what a mess.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    And one more thing....Bush and Cheney now have a problem with Amnesty International??? They didn't have quite such a problem when they were using Amnesty's human rights reports on Saddam's Iraq as fodder for this war......

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#14)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Horse. Is it getting late where you are? Is your perceptual problem a matter of lack of sleep? Or is it that you're a lefty? I neither rationalized nor justified the abuse. But there's no time like the present. I would suggest that calling this abuse is BS. You recall the "torture" of some clown by having him wrapped in an Israeli flag? I'm not sure that was ever proved, but it was lamented by the lefties for some time. Picture a Klansman "tortured" by being humiliated in a Black Power flag. The problem is not that he's being treated badly. The humiliation stems from the fact that he's a butthead. Ditto the terrorist who's humiliated by being wrapped in an Israeli flag. If that's a problem for him, it's because he's a butthead. If people are willing to kill or die because of the treament of a book, but care not that others of their own religion are murdered by still others of their own religion, I suggest we don't have a major requirement to worry about what they think as a moral guide to our action, although it may be practically useful to be able to predict what seems to be insanity. Long, but not, technically, run-on. Anyway, you did manage to dodge my point. All in all, not a bad performance for a lefty.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    ...although it may be practically useful to be able to predict what seems to be insanity.
    It takes two to tango. Listen to yourself justifying invasions, occupations, torture, slaughter; you and the Neocons are the mirror image of the jihadists and their supporters.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#16)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    You didn't bring up that the same investigation found 5 incidents (in 4 years) of Koran "abuse", where stepping on one is the worst - but 15 incidents of koran abuse by prisoners. Not to mention this: Other than you and a few other "out there" types, no one really cares. Kicking or stepping on a Koran? Please.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    It's quite obvious that PPJ and Richard Aubrey, et al, continue to obfuscate this issue. As I noted in the earlier thread, the issue is that our troops have abused, tortured and killed detainees. Period. End of story. This has been confirmed by the Pentagon, by the Red Cross, by the FBI, among others. The thinking that this is somehow justified or insignificant is appalling. We hold ourselves out to be the moral arbiters of the world, the beacon of human rights. How is it possible to at the same time condone such behavior on the part of our troops and, of much greater importance, the obvious complicity of the Secretary of Defense and the now Attorney General? TORTURE, ABUSE, BEATINGS AND KILLINGS OF DETAINEES IS WRONG. PERIOD. WRONG! MORALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG! What is it about that that you don't get? Just because "the other side" commits abuses and atrocities, does not in any way justify our doing so. "We're being much too nice to these folks." Meaning what, exactly? What is it that you suggest we do? As noted, quite accurately, by another poster, you and your ilk are cut from the same cloth as the terrorists and jihadists. Your ignorance and bigotry are all too apparent, your understanding of what it means to be a real patriotic American nonexistent. I'd be interested in knowing your military background, PPJ and Richard Aubrey and the rest of you who condone torture, abuse and murder. Commander, U. S. Navy, Retired

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#18)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    "Ditto the terrorist who's humiliated by being wrapped in an Israeli flag. If that's a problem for him, it's because he's a butthead." hahahahahahahahahahha Ditto the wrong winger wrapped in a hammer and sickle flag, ditto the fundie christian whose bible was pi$$ed on... RA, you topped yourself this time around. Rationalize all you want, but what you are condoning is mistreatment of human beings and a direct affront to their religion. Tough cookies for you I guess, must come from being a wrong-winger... Too blinded by self righteous-with us or against us-rhetoric.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#19)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    so what? I do it and love it. Hey is this a free country or what? our government has done the same thing to the bible/all scrptures and the old testament jewish book of holy scrptures, and people its only books with words about who to live in the old world. its funny to watch this story. by the way none are in fact the words of god, and it was guys who needed control did the writing. I am not big on the mideast gods, anyone want to cut my head off for the god thing? come to me little ones. I say use the Koran in the bathroom or read it on the pot.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    What you rightwingers don't understand is that these people take the Koran to be the literal word of god, and they do so because, unlike us, they have never gone through an age of reason, a renaissance, or a scientific enlightenment, being that they've been living under theocratic martial law for generations now. These people are literally stuck in their own middle ages, where we were 500-1,000 years ago. Today, yes, you probably won't see people in America rioting over desecration of the bible, but desecrate that same bible over in 1600's Salem, or in 12th century Europe and see what happens. In order to understand these people's reaction, you have to understand the context of the society they live in and where it is in it's social evolution. These people are living in a rigid theocratic society where all secular and progressive thought has been banned. Their leaders have effectively kept them locked in a social time warp, completely dependent on a handfull of religious books as their only source of information. This is why they're so feverent about it. But, understanding this means delving slightly farther into the cultural history of the region than fox 'news' has deigned to go, so it's no wonder rightwingers don't get it.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#21)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Fenria, the wingers get it all right, Yourdescription of Arabic society is exactly how they want this country to be, only Christian instead of Muslim.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    For anyone pitching "Why do you hate America ?" unless you actually are an American what's to like ? As for 9/11 get over it ! It happens all over the world every day. The US had it coming last time and will have it coming double the next. If it can be said that "When America sneezes the world catches a cold" it can also be said "When America farts the world has to live with the smell". Sadly the world sees America as "PPJ all the way" and anyone who wants that to change had better stand up and be counted before she needs international support. The US is a young country with its head stuck in it's a@@ and would do well to grow up.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#23)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    To respond in no particular order. My enlisted MOS was light weapons Infantry. My commissioned MOS was Airborne Infantry Small Unit Commander. I was on orders to Viet Nam (my first choice of duty station) until my brother, a C130 navigator, was killed in a crash on Taiwan. I am not justifying torture or abuse, but talking about Koran abuse. I do understand how the Koran is regarded. That's my point. If baby-killing head-choppers get all screwed up in what passes for their brains on account of the mistreatment of a book--which they do--we have a problem expecting rational responses from them. Especially as they don't get upset at the desecration of the book when somebody blows it up by the case in a mosque. I understand that. The problem is that some don't. It would seem to follow that we can't always please everybody and if the baby-chopping head-killers get upset, maybe we could have a counselor tell them to stuff it. The idea, not the book. It would be just right down the lefty plan if the US could be forbidden from doing anything a terrorist claimed upset him. Torture and abuse is always wrong. The Nazis made it work for them when they used it to roll up resistance cells. So it's wrong but it works. So, if it works, and if it could save US or Iraqi lives and we don't do it because it's wrong, we pay in lives. Figure your way out of that one. Once you've demonstrated the fearful and wonderful cleanliness of your hands, somebody might remind you that there may be a cost in lives anyway. Then what? We know that the lefties have elevated naked twister to the status of torture. In an earlier discussion, somebody got faked into insisting there he wouldn't know which to choose when faced with the possibility of being stacked while nude or having parts cut off him. Not the sort of thing you'd want to tell somebody if you cared if they thought you were effing nuts, but it's mandatory when trying to use poor treatment to punch up the numbers of "torture" incidents. You will note that the Koran is available for mistreatment because the US is providing them, along with Muslim chaplains and a three-page set of orders on how to treat the book respectfully. You will note that cases of abuse are being investigated and prosecuted. Got an idea, here. Your exaggerations and flat lies on the subject, and your drooling insistence that this epitomizes the US effort have worn out the public. The whole subject is a yawn. That's too bad, since some public attention would be useful, but you ruined it by your patent interest in using it for political purposes. As if you ever, ever had any interest in the misfortunes of the innocent other than as pawns in your political games.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#24)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    The Koran thing is particularly difficult for normal people to understand when you consider that the detainees are doing worse to the book, sparking no riots. And, strangely, no lefty outrage. See, the thing is, guys, you're transparent. You just can't make a coherent case that isn't overturned by inconvenient facts and which hauls your selective outrage, double standards, and special pleading into the light. That's why nobody bothers with you. What you need to do is apologize to all the Christians you condemned for being upset about Piss Christ. Because, now, you understand.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#25)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Richard, 1. that these demonstrations were only against desecration of the Koran is debateable (see the Karzai's comments on TL link for other explanations). 2. You say that you are not rationalizing abuse. You just don't think that desecrating the holy book of one's religion is abuse. I think that is rationalizing abuse. 3. Regardless of your view on this, you prove my point which is that even apologists for Bush's detainee no longer deny the truth behind the allegations, unlike Bush. You basically interpret them differently. 4. "Torture and abuse is always wrong. The Nazis made it work for them when they used it to roll up resistance cells. So it's wrong but it works. So, if it works, and if it could save US or Iraqi lives and we don't do it because it's wrong, we pay in lives." Is torture and abuse always wrong or is it ok if it saves lives? You contradict yourself.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Let me add... 5. Naked twister? There were people beaten to death in Afghanistan and Iraq. Dissin' the Koran is just one facet of the issue. You can call it abuse or annoyance or whatever term suits your fancy, but people (some of which were probably totally innocent) were beaten to death. 6. Please explain how this abuse "works for us" and please explain how it has saved any lives.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    What you need to do is apologize to all the Christians you condemned for being upset about Piss Christ. Because, now, you understand.
    I know it's a subtle difference, but those people who were offended by Piss Christ weren't forced to look at it after they were kidnapped and kept in a dog kennel cage for 3 years, were they?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#28)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Phantasm - What didn't you understand about the following quotation, by me, from the "ACLU to get Abu Ghraib Torure Photos" thread?
    "So, what they get is what we decide to give them. And it should not be torture. The disagreements come in when abuse is called torture. My belief is that we should give them a fair tribunal, and hang the ones who we find to be illegal combatants, guerillas, terrorists. There is no place to send them, and death has been the historical fate of such people. The innocent ones should be released, with compensation."
    Since you appear to be new, I will also point out that from the first reports I said the military should investigate, charge and try anyone involved in torture. (That's the problem in coming into the middle of an 18 month discussion.) You wrote -
    "We're being much too nice to these folks." (by PPJ) Meaning what, exactly? What is it that you suggest we do?"
    "You suggest?" I suggest you re-read, if you ever took time enough before launching into your attack, my previous comments. They are written in plain language. As for my military service, I spent a little over 10 years in Naval Aviation. That is all I have ever said, and I have made no claims or comments beyond that, nor will I. You wrote: "
    Your ignorance and bigotry are all too apparent, your understanding of what it means to be a real patriotic American nonexistent."
    You do not know me, yet you make snarky, insulting remarks. I submit that these are typical far left comments against anyone who dares point out that we are at war and that supporting the country is not a great sin. Nor is mentioning that killing the enemy is the best way to win wars.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#29)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Horse. With regard to #4. I don't contradict myself. I point out two facts. That they put us in an ethical bind is not my fault. I do say that, whichever course we take, the result will be bad. The difference is that the costs of not getting all we can from these guys is more remote and diffuse, and so can be more easily ignored. That's not the same as saying it does not exist. As to admitting Koran abuse exists, I admit it. Never didn't. I don't consider it abuse. There are two reasons. One is that the detainees do worse to their Korans without getting upset about it, from which it may follow that the purpose of feigning offense about the US guys doing it is political, not really an emotional problem for the terrorists. So perhaps it's a game. And, as somebody pointed out, the riots may not have been a result of the Newsweek story. Having said that, you're screwed. Because it means that only lefties get upset at Koran desecration. Clearly, Muslims do not, except in the most scrupulously defined circumstances. Ernesto, I try not to think about you, but the imprisonment thing is irrelevant. That the Christians were forced to pay for Piss Christ is relevant, however. Do you apologize to them for reproaching them for being upset? After all, if you take the word of a terrorist about his emotional state, why not a Christian? Ref naked twister. That is not torture, but you guys have been hauling it in to punch up the numbers, which is why so few are interested in your sales pitch any longer.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    You do not know me, yet you make snarky, insulting remarks.
    He must know you since he has adapted your basic technique. Phantasm My advice is to ignore PPJ who spouts right wing nonsense as if its truth. Also he is unable to read basic English and insists that his misreading of the GC is right when its clearly wrong. His only prupose is to bait, spew snark, mislead, and hijack threads. Take it from someone who has spent way too much time and wasted way too much bandwidth talking to him, dont bother. he cant be convinced of anything and spouts self rightous delusional claptrap as if its the holy grail.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    I've said this before and others have too, but the key here is not toview the Koran abuse in isolation, which is what the right wing wants. It has to be seen in the context of the torture, abuse, illegal invasion, the killing of thousands of civilians etc. In this context, desecration of the Koran because a perfect symbol of how the US has treated Iraqis and Muslims. They have degarded them, killed them, dehumanized them. That is precisely the tact some of the admin apologists have taken here. To me the condemnation of an entire people or religion based on the actions of a few is rascism. Pointing out that those few did indeed commit heinous crimes doesn't not negate the charge of rascism. But they must continue to dehumanize and denigrate them in order to cover up the wrongs done by this admin. Pretty transparent.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#33)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    Soc. You forgot to mention overthrowing two of the worst regimes extant, putting fifty million people into improved circumstances, not to mention elections. All that stuff you lefties would prefer if it weren't that the US and Bush would get the credit. Actually, you wouldn't prefer it. You just pretend. I think those who deliberately murder civilians are demeaning their group, not those who point it out. Stuff it, Soc. I know where you're going. There's a difference in the moral load of deliberately killing civilians and accidentally killing them. As you know, we are taking casualties to avoid civilian deaths. Fallujah could have been carpet-bombed from six miles up. Instead, our grunts went door-to-door. Also, spare me the "destroyed" piece. It's not as destroyed as it could have been, not as destroyed as Homs (see Syria), and we're rebuilding it. Sort of like, say, Caen or Cologne. Not like, say, Hiroshima. You can call anything you like racism, but as Lincoln, or somebody, said, calling a cat a dog doesn't make it one. The mistreatment by the US is minimal, is being actively investigated and prosecuted, while the vicious treatment by the other side, as usual, gives you guys a case of the weak knees and dry mouth. Love that revolutionary virility. That's been a fact for at least forty years, which is as long as I've been watching, and probably longer. Unless you guys can show us a list of the governors you've wanted prosecuted or impeached for what goes on in state prisons, your claim to be sincere in this is as hollow as any other claim. It's nothing but a political tool. What about you're outed don't you get?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#34)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    OT. Somebody asked me for a link about lefty neck-snapping prior to and duringn WW II. I replied by mentioning Rebecca West's "The New Meaning of Treason", as a fabulous book. Unfortunately, that went, with the thread, into the archives. West is a terrific writer and her book runs from Lord Haw-Haw to Profumo, including Fuchs and the Rosenbergs. She does bios and speculates as to motivation. Great writer. You would also profit from the preface and suffix to her "Black Lamb and Gray Falcon".

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#35)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Soc, You are downright spooky sometimes. As I was scrolling down the discussion, I was thinking exactly what you said. This is not just about the Quaran. But now the right trash is focusing on it as another isolated, one in a thousand "accident" (May I suggest some Detrol for the poor soldier with an apparent bladder control problem Gotta go, gotta go, gotta go RIGHT NOW!). Again people, THIS IS NOT ABOUT ONE OR TWO INCIDENTS. This is about a sustematic abuse of power over human beings, MANY of whom are victims of a bounty system gone mad. Apologists like RA and PPJ (Phantasm got the welcome-wagon-of-snob intro from him today) want to divert attention to isolated info bytes so as to cause us to lose site of the big picture, which is tens of thousands of dead over a pack of lies. Oops! I sense another Babaloo moment approaching.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Look, PPJ has a new wingnut to play with. Welcome, RA! It is good to see there are other self righteous folks out there like Jim. I thought America was maturing, and then you started posting here, Yay! As for defiling the Koran, does it surprise anyone that the Shrub administration isn't above extolling religious tolerance and then turning around and s*&#@!*g on some persons religious text? I surely hope nobody is that naive as to believe the war mongers now in control of this country have a shred of humanity or decency in them. And RA before you start your mewling about head choppers and Islamo fascists I still have yet to see any refutation of the arguement that you, PPJ, et al. are cut from the same cloth as the people you seem to hate the most, the aforementioned Islamofascists. As for me I don't want any Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, whatever fundamentalist to wage war and kill thousands of innocent people in the name of freedom. How do you figure it is 100% better for the people of Irag and Afghanistan? These countries are completely destroyed with little or no reconstruction going on. Do you have some inside source to Iraqi or Afghani feelings that the rest of us don't? No? Didn't think so. You just spout the rights propaganda just like the good little puppets you and PPJ have become.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Oh yeah, it turns out that Newsweek was correct. Imagine that, things can be true without the Shrubites saying so.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Soccerdad, you're quite right re engaging with PPJ and his ilk. "Never get into a braying contest with a jackass nor a pissing contest with a skunk." There's no reasoning with those who have their own reality and who so fervently ascribe to the philosophy (and propaganda) of faith-based, fact free.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Torture and abuse is always wrong. The Nazis made it work for them when they used it to roll up resistance cells. So it's wrong but it works. So, if it works, and if it could save US or Iraqi lives and we don't do it because it's wrong, we pay in lives. Figure your way out of that one. Once you've demonstrated the fearful and wonderful cleanliness of your hands, somebody might remind you that there may be a cost in lives anyway. Then what?
    I'd rather die a hundred times over on a long and arduous journey along the moral high road, than live in the lap of eternal luxury bought by toture, lies, and murder. My hands are clean dude.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    This is just plain old propaganda now. Press releases timed to draw attention away from other things, and to direct attention where they want it. What the media should be talking about is the Downing Street memos, or, if they are going to talk about Gitmo, the abuse of the prisoners themselves, not books. Spin spin spin

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    PPJ - Gee whiz and golly wow, ya shore got me there. You're absolutely right, I didn't serve 38 years in the Navy. Only 28 (8 enlisted, 20 commissioned). Damn! Guess that doesn't really count, right? Now about that "leftwinger" stuff. Welllll...gosh, maybe yur right (oh, yeah, you're "right", no question about that). If being opposed to and appalled by right-wingers and their fascistic propoganda, their deliberate denial of and avoidance of facts, their support for and rationalization of anything and everything perpetrated by the current regime makes one a "leftwinger," then I guess I've just gotta plead "guilty, y'r honor." If it's "left wing" to speak out against lies, against getting our troops killed on the basis of those lies, if it's "left wing" to believe that as Americans, as truly patriotic Americans, we abhor the abuse, torture and killing of detainees, if to believe and insist that our government operate in accordance with our Constitution, then I guess I must be a "leftwinger." If the only alternative to believing and propogating the propaganda of Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, bush, cheney, perle, wolfowitz, feith, rice and rumsfeld (to name but a few) is to be a "leftwinger," then, again, I guess I'm guilty as charged. And proudly so.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    phantasm as you can see PPJ is also the resident bully. PPJ-I know how much you hate Juan Cole - but you have never been able to refute him with an expert who has also studied the middle east. PPJ and this admin hate experts because they have the nasty habit of trying to bring them back to reality, not the homemade reality of the neocons.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey, First off I want to remind you that not all the people who were mistreated at Gauntanamo were "terrorists". Remember that many have been released and not charged with anything. And it is these very people who have been most vocal about being mistreated, so don't just dismiss all claims as being from terrorists who deserved it anyway. Now, I agree that disrespect to the Koran does not amount to torture. Liberals were never all that focused on the Koran story until conservatives said it wasn't true. We were a lot more interested in the many people who have died in American detention. Now it might not be torture to damage a book, but it is also really not a good way to win hearts and minds. Our enemies want to frame this as a holy war, and we shouldn't give them this sort of ammo. And I do think modern day fundamentalists christians in America (not just those in the 17th century) would indeed get pretty worked up if a tape of Saddam Hussein or Bid Laden doing bad things to a bible appeared. It just seems like poor strategy. I understand that Piss Christ is very upsetting to Christians. However, I think we owe special protections to prisoners, as they are stripped of all freedoms, and we have total power over them. How we treat the powerless I feel says a lot about us as a culture. That is why it bothers me when anyone is abused in a prison (and yes, I am very upset about abuse in regular American prisons). You say that "vicious treatment by the other side, as usual, gives you guys a case of the weak knees and dry mouth." I have no idea what that means, that we liberals are scared by what the other side does? I don't even know what that is based on. As to why we don't react the same way as to American abuse is because I feel morally culpable when American representatives do something that is beneath the honor of America, because it bring shame on my country. The way to restore honor to our country is to work to make sure that this behavior is not tolerated, so we have to speak out against it loudly. This to me is my patriotic duty. When an extremist in the Middle East does something horrible I am horrified but not filled with a sense of personal shame. Does that make sense to you? This is something that I feel conservatives really don't seem to understand about the world view of liberals. Fenria, I think you are lacking in your knowledge of Middle Eastern History. They did indeed have a renaissance, with amazing advances in science, math, and philosophy. There has only recently been this fundamentalist takeover that has set it back (that is my paranoid fear of what will happen in the U.S. as our fundamentalists grow in political power).

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#45)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    Ug .. this all over again. These are just books folks, and they belong to the army. As such they can do whatever they please with them. There is very likely some REAL torture going on inside Gitmo and this should be our concern. If the stiffest interrogation going on there is pi$$ing on a book these folks are in fine shape. Was pisschrist government funded torture for Christians; did I miss the riots? Come on, put this story out of my misery. “as you can see PPJ is also the resident bully.” … doth saith the pot

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#46)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    SD - Resident bully? You know, I didn't make a post attacking you. Can't take the truth, eh? BTW - Are you denying my comment re OBL and you? Hate Juan Cole? SD, I hate no one. As a matter of fact, I don't even dislike Juan Cole. Why should I? You are the one always throwing around such words as "hate," "liars," "war criminals," etc. But never any proof, just attacks. Phantasm - Gee, sorry I made a mistake of 10 years. But I'll stick by my belief that you weren't in the navy. Now I may be wrong, but I have never before heard a retired military officer make such comments. They are just so.... "programed." The navy people I know all had minds of their own. BTW - Got any comments about the Koran issue? I mean besides you dislike my position? I mean, can you tell me why we should be concerned about these folks feelings? I mean besides the "I love eveyone" syndrome? Can you tell me why we should not hang those we find to be illegal combatants/guerillas/terrorists? Do you deny that this has been the fate of these in the past? Wouldn't we have the absolute right to do so?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#47)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    PPJ - You are becoming ridiculous. Our actions in Iraq have proven him right. Its not the US government itself, but it is these particular criminals that are in the white house. I have offer much proff. Evcept there is no proof that would satisfy you. You are too bust campaining for the death of Muslims etc. Why should we care? Hearts and minds hearts and minds. There are 1 billion Muslims do you think it is necessary to piss off every last one of them? But you don't care becuase they are centuries behind us practice a blood thirsty religion etc etc. God you're pathetic.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    PPJ - I have made comments about the Koran issue. why don't you read them. Try 9:21am

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    I mean, can you tell me why we should be concerned about these folks feelings?
    Because how we treat prisoners effects the way others see us. It inspires people to fight against us. Hasn't beheadings and the like made more Americans even more impassionedly want to destroy the insurgency? When we mistreat prisoners, we help the enlistment of our enemies. Especially when we create fodder for the holy war argument.
    Can you tell me why we should not hang those we find to be illegal combatants/guerillas/terrorists? Do you deny that this has been the fate of these in the past? Wouldn't we have the absolute right to do so?
    If you are for the death penalty (which I am not) I would say you could kill prisoners AFTER you have tried and convicted them of something. Many of the people we initially threw in Gitmo as enemy combatants have now been released with no charges against them. If we had just done summary executions we would have killed innocent people and I would like to think America is better than that.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#50)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    SD - My only comment about Moslems has been, where are the moderates? I have seen no press conferences, no interviews on TV and/or radio. There have been articles on websites, but most of the excuse variety. So I ask again. Where are the moderates? Why are they not on NBC, CBS, ABC, FNC, CNN, PBS??? And if the moderates will not step forward, why should we be concerned about hurting their feelings? At this point all I see from the Left is a continual "US bad." Of course this is to be expected since the Left opposed the war, and vehemently hates Bush. And in your OBL agreement you did not use a qualifier. You just said what I quoted. So if the Moslem world has its feelings hurt because we are locking up some of the radical moslem killers, I really don't what to say except, "Sorry about that."

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    PPJ - the moderates were with us after 9/11. Why should they be speaking out now? Where are the moderate Americans calling for the end of killing Iraqi women and children? Calling for the end of torture? etc etc. Your insistance on bring up this straw man over and over just shows how weak your arguments are. And why dont you just stop the lies, you know you have said plenty about the Muslims and Islam here at TL.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#52)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:41 PM EST
    So if the Moslem world has its feelings hurt because we are locking up some of the radical moslem killers, I really don't what to say except, "Sorry about that."
    How blatently dishonest can you be? This brings you to new heights. First how do know they are radical muslim killers given how many have been released and never charged. Second, the Muslims are angry because we invaded illegally using lies to justify the invasion, have killed women and children indiscriminately, flattened cities, tortured and raped people, etc etc. But just keep spouting your apologist nonsense. It doesn't matter you dont have any credibility left anyway.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#53)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    SD - The moderates were with us after 9/11? But then went away when we struck back? Let's say it another way. When we were victims they loved us. When we struck back they didn't love us. With friends like that, who needs enemies? et al - Here is another link on the story. Gosh and golly gee, Batman. There were - count'em - five instances. Wow and dang nab it! Btw SD - You are always the one apologizing.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#54)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. You lie. Again. The US is as discriminating as possible. We invent new and more precise--and smaller--weapons for the purpose. Your heroes who blow up bombs in a market place are the indiscriminate killers. Fenria, you can live as long or as short as you like. Your response was excessively self-referential. We weren't talking about your life, nor about what has been paid to protect it. We were talking about the lives of Iraqis, US and Coalition soldiers, and possibly US civilians. When the question is how long or short do they live, you will have to do some different thinking. I don't know what your answer will be, but when the question has to do with others and not yourself, it could be a major change for you. If you notice the name of this thread, you'll see it wasn't the righties who started the subject of Koran abuse. It was only after it was put into perspective--it's a scam--that you decided to change the rules. SURprise.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#55)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    JB. You think the beheadings have made more Americans mad. I don't think so. Those who were already mad got madder, granted. But the lefties don't give a rodent's patootie except to say, as Berg's father did, that it was Bush's fault and it shows how much "they" hate us and shouldn't we worry about that? Can you think of a lefty who decided to support the GWOT because of beheadings, when beforehand he did not? Didn't think so.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Ernesto, I try not to think about you, but the imprisonment thing is irrelevant.
    RA...trying not to think is a specialty of the Christian Right. Takes alot of practice I would imagine. Hang in there, you're doing fine so far. How is the imprisonment thing irrelevant???? OK...your panties were all in a bunch over an artist's rendering. But maybe that's the point of art in a free society...to get a reaction. A lot different from the reaction you are trying to get when you have somebody shackled in a cage many miles from home and you are doing your desecration thang. Or when you are whacking somebody in the leg with a baton to make them yell "Allah" a few hundred times. Because your flesh isn't pulpified and you don't die from it. Yeah, kind of a big difference, there. As for the rioting... It seems that the Christian Right riots in a different way than these Islamo-rabble. You don't go and get shot. No sir, you go and protest from your paper pulpit and miraculously the entire electronic and print media is abuzz with your protestations and the courts are packed with your judges and even the foreign policy of the U.S. is doing it's damndest to bring on the Rapture. You guys don't mess around when you riot. Dozens dead? Nope, try tens or hundreds of thousands.
    That the Christians were forced to pay for Piss Christ is relevant, however. Do you apologize to them for reproaching them for being upset? After all, if you take the word of a terrorist about his emotional state, why not a Christian?
    Again, no one was forced to look at Piss Christ. I never saw it, actually. Not like I was in a cage and it was shoved in my face. For 3 years. Now the fact that you are comparing your cultural war here at home to an actual war over there with cages and shackles shows a serious disconnect in your head. And I think it relevant that I am forced to pay for the Neocon World Game Plan to be put into effect. And it happens to include Israeli torture tactics, which ends up making all the world less safe. But perhaps this is part of the plan.
    Ref naked twister. That is not torture, but you guys have been hauling it in to punch up the numbers, which is why so few are interested in your sales pitch any longer.
    I am sure that few in your circles are interested in anything except towing the line right through the neck-deep raging current. I can almost hear a monotonous nasal inflection come right through your keyboard as you bang out the Neocon pean to... Freedom....democracy...Iraq liberated... or was that obliterated? Well at least it ain't as bad as Hiroshima...yet. It's all a matter of degrees at this point, as you so eloquently stated about the demolition of Fallujah. Destroying in order to save...hey where did we hear that before? But you never got to number 6: Please explain how this abuse "works for us" and please explain how it has saved any lives.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    "My advice is to ignore PPJ who spouts right wing nonsense as if its truth" Agreed. But Soc, why don't we follow our own advice? "There is very likely some REAL torture going on inside Gitmo and this should be our concern. I'm glad to see, PW, that you recognize that, and while I agree that the qur'An is just a book, you seemed to understand that it is symbolic - given your quick comparison to art. What's revealing to me is that the same people in our society that tout symbols like bibles and flags as either sacrosanct or poison are quick to applaud/apologize-for this activity at Gitmo. It reveals their base bigotry, but somehow they still gather large followings and receive lavish media coverage. "To me the condemnation of an entire people or religion based on the actions of a few is rascism." Perhaps cultural bigotry is a better description of the behavior you reference, Soc, but that particular post was your best. We have made the already miserable even more miserable in Iraq. I'll be curious to see how much of this status quo ends when/if a Democratic Executive is elected. I'm sorry to say that I expect much of it will remain, perhaps with different titles and headings, but the same spirit.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    PPJ - You're quite right, the Navy did teach us to THINK! I care not one whit if you believe I was in the Navy, but it's apparent that you're unaware in your arrogance of ignorance that not all military officers walk in lockstep nor do we all believe that whatever gwb and his minions say is ipso facto the truth. You said awhile ago that I don't know you. You're quite mistaken. "By their actions ye shall know them" and your actions (your posts) give ample evidence of just who you are. And who you are not. Faux patriotism does not a patriot make and mindless repetition of right-wing talking points does not an American make. As an American and as a patriot, you fail miserably on both counts. I recommend to you the U. S. Constitution.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. You lie. Again. The US is as discriminating as possible. We invent new and more precise--and smaller--weapons for the purpose.
    RA - such as dropping cluster bombs on civilian areas? PPJ- "Struck back"? Pretty funny. And now I suppose you are willing to lay out logically, the direct connection between Iraq and 9/11?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#60)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. You're not as smart as you think you are. Dropping cluster bombs in civilian areas? What area is not a civilian area? Any area is a civilian area, no matter how few civilians are in it and no matter how many enemy fighters are. The exception is military reservations. I would remind you that the Geneva Convention says that fighting parties should not take up positions among protected parties (civilians) and if they do, forcing the other side to attack them while among civilians, the legal [and moral] fault is on the party which chose to fight from among civilians. That means the terrorists. Having said that, there are few, if any examples, of cluster bombs being used in urban fighting which is where there are likely to be civiians. You know, because you're smarter than you seem, that we could do a hell of a lot worse and choose to do better. "Cluster bombs on civilian areas:? This is a typical lefty tactic, as if this is the worst that could possibly happen--even if it didn't happen. Were we to use eviction notices, you'd be faking just as much outrage. Besides, the left's concern for civilian casualties is clear--useful as a tool if the US caused them or could be said to have caused them, irrelevant if the terrorists (or your other heroes) caused them. Soc, you used to be more rational. Or your arguments weren't so obviously bogus, I should say. Tampa, you're going in circles. It's what happens when you forget the map. First, we know the faux outrage over the Koran desecration is a manipulative scam. You know it. I know it, most people know it. I refer you to reasons for that judgment in earlier posts. Those who "tout" this or that as sacred items are applauding or apologizing? What's wrong with apologizing? As to applauding, I don't see that. I do see people saying you guys are huffing and puffing really hard trying to make this a big deal--and it's leaking. I agree we should be looking at other issues. You all need to take this up, before the Koran-abuse thing leaves you looking silly. You could take the wayback machine and retroactively post your outrage at the desecration of the Church of The Nativity, the killing of Christians and Buddhists by Muslims in Thailand, the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, the routine desecration of the Bible in Saudi Arabia. Where were the Muslim organizations at the monster rally in DC for Muslims for peace? I believe about fifty showed up. People, not organizations. If Muslims get mad when we hit back--which seems to be the case--then they ought to be upset when Muslims kill other Muslims at much greater rates than we have. But they aren't. Killing Muslims is, apparently, a privilege reserved for Muslims. As I pointed out earlier, many Muslims, including those who would be most easily labled "moderate" think about these things differently than we do. They have a different world view. Taking what they say and do as if it means what it would mean if we said it or did it is not the way to either a moral or a prudential judgment about what we are to do. Is it cultural bigotry to insist that they are just like us, or to understand they are different? Multi-culties are always going on about other cultures being different. So it must be true. Is it not likely that the difference makes a difference? Or is taking that step cultural bigotry? I've worked with exchange students for years and they are fine kids, for the most part. But, even after months of having them live in the family, there can be a stumble based on different world views. Cultures vary, as Thomas Sowell said, and differences have consequences. How can it be otherwise?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    RA - we've been through this before complete with links (go to the archives) Dropping Cluster bombs on baghdad, Fallujah etc. Cluster munitions were well documented in the battle at Najaf. And cluster munitions are the gift that keeps on giving as children and adults pick up the unexploded pieces only to have them go off. You can wish it away all you want and continue to live in that delusional right wing Nirvana where the only enemies are the leftists. Its your perogative. Excuse me if I don't take your comment on my rationality seriously. Where you appear to be residing, rationality, objectivity and most of all compassion seem to be in very short supply indeed.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    RA and PPJ went to KMART where they were having a major sale on straw men. What divel

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#63)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Phantasm - Sorry, but I just don't believe. No Commander that I ever knew would make such immediate ill tempered attacks and fall into high school like discussions about a third party with another person. So we'll just have to go our separate ways. May your skies always be red at sunset, and may you find a star to steer her by. Ernesto writes:
    "But maybe that's the point of art in a free society...to get a reaction."
    That's also the point of many 5 year olds. BTW - You do understand, don't you, that The Rapture will not be summoned by man? SD - This has been done so many times that I plead ennui regarding your request. BTW - Can you tell us what is not a civilian area when you are taking a city?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    BTW - Can you tell us what is not a civilian area when you are taking a city?
    The question of course implies that we are free to do whatever we want when fighting in Iraq Cluster munitions can not be used in cities without committing a war crime.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#65)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. Keep the Geneva Convention in mind. He who chooses to fight from among civilians is the criminal. Now, we know that your heroes can do whatever they like and no blame will attend them. We know you need dead civilians, so fighting from among civilians is a lefty tactic, highly approved, since it reduces the effectiveness of US forces. And, as I say, it has the additional advantage of providing lefties with dead civilians. Visualize transparency. If the left-over sub munitions kill people, and if that worries you (pleases you, more like, as the deaths can be blamed on Americans) then you must be on record as opposing the indiscriminate use of car bombs and suicide bombers among civilians. Go on. Show us the your record.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#66)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    RA, You are truly amazing. You like to cite the GC, when it helps you out put forget about them when they indict your side. Your incoherent rantings about the left and lefties, probably from some rally in the 60's, is truly humorous. Incoherent and irrelevant and humourous. Let me make it clear. I am against the indiscriminate killing of civilians by anyone. Up until 4-6 weeks ago the majority of car bombs were directed at Americans, Iraqi police, or iraqi army/police recruits. The increase in the attacks on civilains by other Iraqis is not defensible. However, how can you scream about this and yet condone the killing of Iraqi civilians by Americans? The complete destruction of Fallujah and the killing of women and children in order to kill a few reamining enemies ranks as a war crime. Remember having given everyone plenty of notice most of the insurgents had already left.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    The US is as discriminating as possible. We invent new and more precise--and smaller--weapons for the purpose. Do you honestly think that depleted uranium shells are discriminating?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#68)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    SD writes:
    "The increase in the attacks on civilains by other Iraqis is not defensible."
    Questions: 1. Why do you use the qualifier phrase, "The increase in the attacks on civilians..." Are you saying attacks on coalition forces and Iraqi government forces are okay? And why say, "increase." Is a smaller number okay? 2. Why do you insert the quailifer "by other Iraqis" into the statement? Everyone knows that the terrorists consist of both homegrown and foreign varieties. And why not condemn all terrorist attacks? Looks like you are reserving the right to NOT condemn some. Which ones do you not condemn? And why not use the term "terrorist?" A little parsing going on, eh?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#69)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. Your agenda is old, man. Palmer and Colton in a History of The Western World discussing the late ninenteenth century independence movements in the Balkans. They tell us that various zealots even facilitated the slaughter of their own people "to dramatize their suffering in the eyes of Europe". You need dead civilians. That's never changed. Conscious. Yes, I believe that. The only way a DU shell will hurt you is if it hits you. The beef about left-over uranium poisoning everything around was discredited after the Gulf War. That you lefties hauled it out again, hoping to find some of the terminally gullible to buy it this time is illuminating (Not the glow-in-the-dark illuminating). So. Don't be the target of a DU shell and you'll be fine. What part of BUSS-TID don't you guys get?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#70)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    PPJ's at his disingenuous best today. remember the discussion was about attacks on civilians. Try to remain focused I know its hard for you. OK one more time for your remedial class. Terrorism is a tatic that most people consider to be attacks on innocent civilians/bystanders. Therefore, attacks by former baathist or nationalist on government forces/police and their American masters are acts of war not terrorism. Now I know you won't agree with this because once you do your house of cards that is your argument come tumbling down.
    And why not condemn all terrorist attacks?
    from my previous post Let me make it clear. I am against the indiscriminate killing of civilians by anyone. Your reading comprehension is still pretty poor.
    And why say, "increase." Is a smaller number okay?
    You ignore the quote above. The increase refers to the events of the last 4-6 weeks.
    A little parsing going on, eh
    Only by you and your feeble dishonest brain

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#71)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc. The terrorists have been attacking civilians for some time. The difference is that they appear to have given up their priority on Coalition forces. That makes the civilian deaths more obvious. You think the civilians dead at the hands of the US exemplify US effort, discredit it and require all involved, especially Bush, to be prosecuted. You are merely "against" the terrorist targeting of civilians. Does not this tactic exemplify the terrorists' effort? Does it not discredit the terrorists as a force? Should not they be prosecuted as far up the chain as they can be caught? Conscious. In his book, "Doughboy", Laurence Stallings talks about returning to a place in France where he had fought in WW I. It is in an orchard, where a Frenchwoman reproaches him because the apples taste of brass [from zillions of expended cartridges]. Is brass toxic? I have no idea. But the cartridges fired bullets, lead slugs with copper jackets. The lead is someplace in its profusion. Do we worry about lead poisoning? Does anybody even bother to worry about whether we should worry? Has anybody bothered to take readings of the lead content of the groundwater around the Somme or Ypres? Of course not. Only DU. For two reasons. One is that radiation scares people. Years ago, a truck carrying radioactive medial waste crashed in Detroit. The headline said it failed to explode. This is true, but headlining it exemplifies the general ignorance about radiation and radioactivity. And, most importantly, we use DU and if it can be discredited--by calling upon the aforesaid irrational view of radiation--then the US is hindered, which is your goal. It's said that old-time actors said sincerity was the hardest part of their craft. Once they learned to fake sincerity, they had it made. Maybe you should pick up something by Stanislavsky. Right now, your sincerity is so thin a two-watt bulb would come through unhindered.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#72)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    SD - Please. If you continue to make such outrageous excuses I'm going to laugh myself to death. Attacks on government and coalition troops by illegal combatants, fighting under no flag, concealing weapons and using tactics that kill everybody they can, are terrorists attacks. Period. By trying to parse your away around that simple fact you state your beliefs very plainly.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    PPJ - take your concerns to the state department. from the council on foreign relations
    The State Department defines terrorism as "premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience."
    Most of the fighters in Iraq by all reports are Baathist Nationalists. The same people we were fighting the first day of the war.They want their power back, they want their country back If you don't like the way they are fighting too bad. So attacks on military, and governement targets are acts of war.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#74)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    PPJ. You will note Soc thinks Iraq ought to belong to the terrorists. He calls it "their country", which they want "back". He could have said they were trying to take over, with more or less legitimacy, one party in a contest. But he's calling them the legitimate owners of the country. As I said, Soc used to be more subtle. It only took two seconds to figure out what he really meant. Now it's right there out in front.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    ra your parsing is only exceeded by your delusions. I am expressing what most ME experts think their (Baathist) motivation is i never said anything about legitimacy They have more of a claim tot he country than the US. I certainly don't want to see them back in power. Your post 2 up is just complete nonsense, incoherent and irrelevant. As usual the 2 head clowns for the Bush apologists unable to win the argument change the goalposts and attck the messenger. Tiresome and predictable. You think that certain behaviors of the insurgents then classify the whole movenment. Ok I'm willing to agree if you apply the same standard to everyone. Thus, the torture, use of cluster munitions, collective punishment are all war crimes. Therefore using your logic then the whole of the US effort and its leaders are to be treated as war criminals. If you are willing to label both sides as criminal then I'm in. Off to the Hague with the lot of them.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#76)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Okay, Soc. Find other behaviors by the insurgents besides attacking civilians and coalition troops. I didn't say they were war criminals. I said that if you can call the US a criminal effort, you must call the terrorists that by many times over. We do not try to kill civilians. For attorneys, intent is important. Terrorists try to kill civilians, probably to spark a civil war which will kill more civilians. This is just fine with you, because if they win, the US loses. I'm not sure which part of the post you think is irrelevant. Is worrying about lead poisoning where tons of lead has been introduced into the soil a good idea? If it isn't, why worry about DU? The difference is that everybody uses lead and you can't hinder US efforts by complaining about it. That's why DU is the EVIL weapon.

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#77)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    RA the use of cluster munitions in a civilian area is a war crime period. Dance around it all you want with your pathetic attempt to justify the US war crimes. The defense that they might be worse than us doesn't impress anyone. The US by using those kinds of Munitions on civilian areas nowing the consequences is equivalent to saying i want to kill civilians. The US knows its going to happen it just doesn't give a s**t. The attack on Fallujah is a major war crime. Attacking coalition troops is not a terrorist act, its an act of war. I know you can concede this point because to do so would cause your entire justification for US actions to crumble. You claims about DU are interesting given that the US leaves that stuff everywhere and insists that its not a health hazzard. Are you saying they are lying about that too.
    This is just fine with you, because if they win, the US loses.
    wrong yet again. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong!

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#78)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Soc, I don't know how you do it sometimes. Do you deal with intellectually challenged people on a regular basis?

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#79)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Che, Yes, I have 3 teenagers ;-)

    Re: Pentagon Confirms Koran Abuse (none / 0) (#80)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    BTW - You do understand, don't you, that The Rapture will not be summoned by man?
    PPJ...Please tell that to the cultists that Bush has to consult before he issues any ME policy initiatives. Richard Aubrey...what can you tell us about the Rapture?