home

Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report?

Newsweek now says its report that the officials at Guantanamo flushed a detainee's Koran down the toilet, which was responsible for protests in which 16 people were killed, was in error.

The report sparked angry and violent protests across the Muslim world from Afghanistan, where 16 were killed and more than 100 injured, to Pakistan to Indonesia to Gaza. In the past week it was condemned in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Malaysia and by the Arab League. On Sunday, Afghan Muslim clerics threatened to call for a holy war against the United States.

But read closely. Michael Isikoff and John Barry of Newsweek reported May 9 (Periscope Section)that a "knowledgable government source" confirmed a military report that investigators at Guantanamo flushed a Koran down the toilet in order to make a detainee provide information. Now the source is backtracking saying he couldn't be sure.

However, released detainees have made the same claims for months.

In January, British prisoners released from Guantanamo said guards threw their Korans into toilets and tried to force them to give up their faith. Human rights lawyer Tom Wilner, who represents several Kuwaiti prisoners at Guantanamo, said in February that his clients told him their Korans were thrown on the floor, stepped on and thrown into toilets at Guantanamo.

And Newsweek isn't saying the Koran-flushing incident isn't true:

Our original source later said he couldn't be certain about reading of the alleged Qur'an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts. Top administration officials have promised to continue looking into the charges, and so will we.

Evan Thomas of Newsweek reports on the mistake here.

In the meantime, as part of his ongoing reporting on the detainee-abuse story, Isikoff had contacted a New York defense lawyer, Marc Falkoff, who is representing 13 Yemeni detainees at Guantánamo. According to Falkoff's declassified notes, a mass-suicide attempt—when 23 detainees tried to hang or strangle themselves in August 2003—was triggered by a guard's dropping a Qur'an and stomping on it. One of Falkoff's clients told him, "Another detainee tried to kill himself after the guard took his Qur'an and threw it in the toilet." A U.S. military spokesman, Army Col. Brad Blackner, dismissed the claims as unbelievable.

So, was Isikoff right all along? This has caused a major media uproar in the Arab world, here's a sampling of the news articles:

We have follow-up posts here and here.

Also doubting the retraction are:

Update: Crooks and Liars says the blame is on the Pentagon, not Newsweek.

< Student Charged With Disorderly Conduct For Wearing a Dress | Earlier Allegations Guards Threw Koran in Toilet >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    As Cokie Roberts once said about Clinton: "It doesn't matter if it's true or not. The story's out there." ...time to read up on my Ecclesiastes.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    I believe no reasonable person is likely to believe this kind of stuff did not happen and probably not just at Gitmo. It's all part of the torture and abuse scheme that our current US govt cooked up. Of course, it's not really torture, I think that Alberto has sorted all that out in his memo. We need to offer to have Alberto explain the particulars to angry muslims around the globe. Just him and maybe Rummy. I am sure they would be persuasive and if they got roughed up a little, well, democracy is messy. You go to negotiations with the negotiators you got... etc. We all know the spiel.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    I think there was a time when it might have been possible for such a story to be fairly successfully retracted if found to be incorrect. I believe we've passed that point big time in our international credibility.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    What I find most significant about the story, aside from the smells-like Newsweek-is-on-the-fed-payroll angle, is that flushing the Koran can legitimately be considered 'torture' to 'detainees.' And 16 people died protesting. That speaks volumes about the clash of civilizations. If one has to pick a winner from one side fighting a jihad and the other in it for the bread; I'll pick the jihadist every time. We should sent the Christian right to Iraq - they're the only ones with a fighting chance.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    So Newsweek has an Emily Litella moment and it's ok because it fits the Bush agenda...I think not. Shouldn't the reporters be suspended or fired. And doesn't this bring back the question of no more off the record briefings or other scams by Bushco Apparently only Knight Ridder hires real reporters

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    I'm sure all the Muslim protesters will be relieved to hear it was all a silly mistake, and that the officer who reported the Koran flushing incident has now seen the error of his ways.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    What’s more disturbing; that folks place such importance in a copy of a book that reflects their faith that they will riot and kill over a perceived disrespect, or that other folks will use this misplaced value to apply pressure in interrogation? Perhaps we should ask Salman Rushdie or Theo van Gogh (we'll need to shout pretty loud for van Gogh to hear). In the spirit of full disclosure; I keep a Book of Mormon on the back of my toilet for light reading. It has never fallen in.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    "What’s more disturbing; that folks place such importance in a copy of a book that reflects their faith that they will riot and kill over a perceived disrespect, or that other folks will use this misplaced value to apply pressure in interrogation? " The most disturbing thing to me is that we spent untold millions of dollars to arm and train these zealots to fight the Soviets twenty years ago and it has now cost us thousands of lives and untold billions of dollars and neither the public or government of the USA has learned squat from it.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#9)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    This is all too similar to Rather and the Bush's National Guard Service. The reporting on the story will sadly become more of a story than the original story. More on this here at Black Belt Politcal Martial Arts where Talk Left got a link.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Indeed, I bet the Abu Ghraib story would have been retracted too...if it weren't for all those damn photos.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    that folks place such importance in a copy of a book that reflects their faith that they will riot and kill over a perceived disrespect could you imagine the reaction in this country of a simliar scene with the American flag after 9-11?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#12)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto - I see you are still playing the old, "it is our fault they attacked us," record. Unfortunately, that one is on 8 track only so it isn't really getting much acceptance. So again. Tell us the reason du djour on why it was our fault they attacked us. GregZ - No, I can't imagine us rioting in the streets with people being killed. Tell us truthfully. Can you? The Hertik - One major difference. We knew the Bush TANG story brodacasted by CBS and Dan Rather was totally wrong. And slanderous, etc, etc. pigwiggle - May all your sisters be married ..... to the same man. Moab is beautiful in the spring... ;-) Al - What if we just said, hey Bro. It is just a piece of paper. Get over it. McFab - Considered torture? Hmmm. Let me see... Should we saw off heads or flush a book? If you answer that one by selecting the latter, well, what can I say except.... I bet you hate Bush. CA - Right down your alley, eh? et al - This pretty well defines the attitudes and cultural positions that we are fighting. Anyone want to tell me that OBL didn't mean it when he told Peter Arnett in 3/97: link So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Greg: No. I presume that was your point. We haven't seen flushing flags, probably because the places that would flush flags them don't have the, you know, toilets into which to flush them. Also, it would clog the toilets. If the would-bed flushers had any to spare, that is, or knew a plumber. But we have seen endless pix of US flags burned and stomped on and have not had mobs go gonzo, rioting, killing, and burning down NGO offices. My guess, only an extension, is that, if we combine Ameicans' reaction to scenes of US flags being burned, and of Arab mobs celebrating 9-11, we can say with reasonable certainty that the answer to your question is, No. That brings up the next question, which is that if we wouldn't and they do, what does that say?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    "That brings up the next question, which is that if we wouldn't and they do, what does that say?" Maybe it says we heeded Ari Fleischer's warning to "watch what we say, watch what we do" in the wake of our Reichstag fire.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    PPJ...they didn't only attack us. They had a long history of attacks in many parts of the world well before 9/11/01. We've been over this several times and the facts remain that we armed and trained them when we knew that they hated us as much as the Soviets. I fail to see how you can't accept the simple lesson in cause and effect here. By your logic, the funding and arming of terrorist organizations is fine and dandy as long as it was at one point justified by who the target was. However, this logic breaks down as soon as the target changes. Again, you seem quite willing to illustrate my point that we fail to learn from past flawed policies.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto. "Reichstag fire"??? Even lefties know what to do with a dead horse, Ernesto. Do it. Hint--stop kicking it. On the other hand, my advice without the usual component of cheerful and compassionate concern for yourselves, keep kicking it, loudly, frequently, in public.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    "Reichstag fire"??? Yes, Reichstag Fire. Now kick this...why was Donny Rumsfeld trying to make the connection with Iraq to 9/11 before the Pentagon flames were even extinguished??

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#18)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto - Hey, I have given you that with 20-20 hindsight we shouldn't have used the Afghan rebels. Ok. But that doesn't explain why it is okay for them to attack us, which I believe you think is true. So. What is the excuse?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto, let me just say that, wrt Rumsfeld's position, you just.... Ah, forget it. Anyway, the point about the Reichstag fire is that the Nazis lit it. To use that simile here is to assert the US did the dirty on 9-11. You care to back that up? I can hardly wait. The more you guys do that, the better for normal people.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    PPJ...show me where I said it was OK for them to attack us or anybody else. Just for the record, they should not have done it and we should not have enabled them to do it. OK...I think we're square on that now. So getting back to the flushing thing... I don't like flags or religious books. Whatever good ever came from them is dwarfed by the piles of corpses that were accumulated under the guise of defending them. The lesson is clear...reactionaries of any stripe are the biggest threat to us. This is a quandary since the scourge of zealots on both sides seemingly cannot be eridicated without a resort to their own nasty tactics. Or can it?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto. Zealots? After the Palestinian terrorists desecrated the Church of The Nativity, how many people died in the ensuing riots sparked by fundamentalist Christian clergy? Numbers please, accurate to the nearest ten thousand. The equivalence you are trying to peddle is absurd. More to the point, you're the only one who doesn't see it. I am of two minds. I can keep telling you you do your cause an injury, and you'll stop. Don't want that. On the other hand, I can see you won't stop so I can keep amusing myself by trying. What to do? What to do? I'll think about it tomorrow.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey...please don't put words or thoughts out there and attribute them to me. Here's the meaning of "Reichstag Fire" as far as I am concerned: it was an event that was exploited by opportunists to push a radical agenda that they would have had little chance of getting through otherwise. Perhaps I should have instead used the term some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey...yes zealots. Must I remind you that the Judeo-Christian countries have historically (and presently) dwarfed all the Muslim and Pagan world in terms of sheer body count? Not only is our God supreme, but so is our life-snuffing technology! Which begs the question. what would Jesus do about Iraq?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#24)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto - You made the comment about two months ago and it has taken me since then for you to finally say: "Just for the record, they should not have done it and we should not have enabled them to do it." Square? Not hardly. You are still excusing them by your qualifier. Ernesto. Giveing a person a gun does not give them the right to shoot you. They are immoral radical terrorists with a desire to spread their vision of the world, by killing. As such you cannot discuss anything with them. They have no moral boundries, and will harm you, or anyone else who does not bow down to them, for the simple reason that you do not count. You are not real to them. Actually, this amoral position is much worse than the morals of those who kills someone in a robbery, or whatever. Ernesto, please catch on. You must oppose these people. They cannot be saved. They cannot be converted. It is a simple kill or be killed equation.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    "They are immoral radical terrorists with a desire to spread their vision of the world, by killing." Yes indeed PPJ...the PNAC crowd defined. From your keyboard to God's ears!

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto is officially off the "discuss issues with" list and is on the "amusing but not worth cyberwhatsit" list.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Well that sucks. I was sooo looking forward to your spirited defense of our senior officer/Jesus freaks, too! :'(

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#28)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Ernesto - Catch a clue. There have been no bombings, beheadings, honor killings, etc. from the western world, or from Jerry Fallwaell, or from the Pope... These people are truly bad, and it sickens me to watch them stir up a bunch of dumb students screaming jihad against the non-believers. After awhile I confess I find it hard to not just say: Hey, stupid people! Let us alone and we'll let you alone. Oh, you can't shut down OBL and his merry band of killers? Okay we'll do it for you. Oh, by the way. Duck.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#29)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    can i do that to?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#30)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Fred - You can do whatever your heart desires.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    PPJ: Al - What if we just said, hey Bro. It is just a piece of paper. Get over it. PPJ, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you said that.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    "Catch a clue. There have been no bombings, beheadings, honor killings, etc. from the western world, or from Jerry Fallwaell, or from the Pope..." Falwel has the government to do its work for them. We use napalm, cluster bombs, f16's, etc. The tecnology is better but the justification is not. PPJ tries to avoid the insurgent tag because it conveys a reason why they are trying to kill us. They are insurgents by definition since they are fighting against the occupying country and its lackey governement. They are also terrorists because of the tactics. Now if we had left some tanks and planes laying around instead of tons of explosives maybe their tactics would be more acceptabel tp PPJ and his ilk.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Would American's riot if an American flag were burned -- we have and would crap we riot over the superbowl when we win And now that we are reclaiming America for Christ --a bible burning would bring about a crusade..much like the one currently going on..

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    The difference is that this is Government Sanctioned religious persecution. Our soldiers who are federal employees are attacking the wackos religious beliefs and desecrating religious materials. When the Afghan gov't was doing it, Americans were aghast and we subsequently bombed their country. Of course we used 9-11 as the backdrop, but how many times a night were the religious persecution and degrading of women angles played? Constantly.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Let's manipulate the entire population of the world into a sea of wild-eyed, frothing at the mouth stark-raving madness. Kind of like a board game.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#36)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    al - I have filed that under "Things I won't say, but wish I would." SD - Please, first you agree with OBL's assessment of our goverment, and now you come out tellinng us these terrorists, many from other countries are insurgents, fighting against occupation.... Load - See any riots when the TVs showed the Plaestinians burning flags after 9/11? See any riots over the weekend? Say what? Blowing up car bombs and killing women and children is a rebel action? What was the score last week? 400 Iraqis? Your position is deplorable, despicable and flat out wrong.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Catch a clue. There have been no bombings, beheadings, honor killings, etc. from the western world, Jim may have been sleeping during the leveling of Fallujah. There are none so blind as he will not see. Read that somewhere.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    "There are none so blind as he who will not see"? how profound. to all out there, please have the courage to admit that you want to see the terrorists win. have the courage to admit that, in your heart of hearts, hearing about riots and car bombs warms your heart. after all, it would serve us right.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    The only one posting here that is wrong is you you post the same factless crap everytime There was a huge outcry when the pictures post 9/11 were shown and hate crines against muslims (or people who appeared to be muslim) increased expodentially And hate crimes against muslims in America continue and you remain steadfast in your defense of liars --there is no question the story is true but you remain true to the Bushco model of censorship and the notion that no bad news should be published in a time of war --thus the need for an ongoing war why not just put on your uniform and salute and don't give me the crap about being too old there have been enlistees in their 50's ..

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#40)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    CA - What don't you understand about the difference between a military operation that was delayed for months in an attempt to get the terrorists to lay down their arms, and random car bombs in market squares on a daily basis designed to terrorize the general population so the terrorists can take over the country? Do you actually believe that if we leave the terrorists will honor the elections? Do you actually believe that if we leave the terrorists will cease their attacks on western governments and friendly ME governments? How can you not believe OBL himself when he states "whole world," and states we must not intervene with the actions of Moslems? CA, if you wish to declare yourself against all war for any reason I will not be able to understand, but I will respect that position. If you don't, then I find you to be a hypocrite, criticizing your country for some vague political reason. Which is it?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#41)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    load writes - "There was a huge outcry when the pictures post 9/11 were shown and hate crines against muslims (or people who appeared to be muslim) increased expodentially And hate crimes against muslims in America continue" Some links would be helpful.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Study: Crimes, Complaints Involving Muslims Up Sharply Posted on 05/11/2005 5:49:16 AM PDT by LSUfan A new report finds that the number of reported bias crimes and civil rights violations against Muslims in the United States soared to its highest level last year since the period immediately after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, which did the study, attributed the increase to lingering animosity toward Muslims and a growing use of anti-Muslim rhetoric by some political, religious and media figures. from the Free Republic --I'm sure you've seen it since you get all your information from there

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Had we not invaded Iraq, there would be no discussion taking place. If you don't want terrorists blowing themselves up along with everybody else in the nearby confines from here to kingdom come, don't invade foreign countries based upon ersatz information and bamboozling tactics. Pure, plain and simple. One thing is for certain: All is fair in love and war. Whatever the terrorists do, it's fair. Beheadings, car bombings, whatever, it doesn't matter. If you want to win a war, you have to fight it to win, not for profit of billions of dollars from it. You will never win a war with no will to win. All you will get is a miserable mess.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Hate crimes against American Muslims up 121 percent By Abdus Sattar Ghazali Hate crimes against American Muslims increased by 121 percent in 2003, according to a report released on May 3, 2004 by the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group. The report attributed this sharp increase to Islamophobic rhetoric. [third insult to another commenter, one more, this commenter will be banned from the site.]

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    complaints, not verified incidents. the fact of the matter is that the Country has been extraordinarily sensitive given the circumstances to a group that, as a whole, gives one no reason to think that they are not favorably disposed to the terrorists. A number of CAIR worthies have been indicted and convicted. You have hatred of the west and Jews preached in mosques.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#46)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Load writes - "The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, which did the study," I wouldn't believe these guys if they swore on a stack of Bibles and Korans. And some links so we can get the details of the study? BTW - In spite of the fact that I am a staunch defender of our country, and a hawk on defense, I am neither a Repub or conservative. I am a Jacksonian social liberal in the tradition of Jackson, Franklin, Truman, Humphrey and Scoop Jackson. In other words load, unlike you, I don't have to wait around and find out what the party line is. Now. Got any information that comes from a believeable source?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Bush's appearance at the mosque -- rare for an American president -- comes at a time when Muslims and Arab Americans are alarmed by threats of violence. Attorney General John D. Ashcroft said the FBI had initiated 40 hate crimes investigations involving reported attacks on Arab American citizens and institutions. Among them is the case of a Pakistani Muslim store owner who was shot and killed in Dallas Saturday evening. any one who disagrees with you is biased??? the hope of Bushco

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    The Chicago Police Department statistics on hate crimes show a similar increase. In 2000, four hate crimes were reported against people of Arab origin, a number that rose to 60 in 2001. [insult to another commenter deleted, commenter warned.]

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    The Federal Bureau of Investigation reports that the number of anti-Muslim incidents rose 1600 percent from 2000 to 2001, largely due to this post-9/11 backlash. these are your people reporting the stats The Chicago police and the FBI

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Anti-Arab American, Muslim, Middle Eastern and South Asian sentiment rose markedly following the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Within five months of the terrorist attacks 600 related hate crimes were reported, according to the Council of American-Islamic Relations and the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.From verbal abuse to murder, crimes against Arab-Americans saw a dramatic increase in the year following the attacks. In addition, the Southern Poverty Law reports that hate groups rose by an alarming 12 percent in 2001. The center describes the reaction of "much of the American radical right" to the September 11 attacks as "pure delight," bringing to light, they say, the fiercely anti-American beliefs of these "pro-Nazi" right-wing extremists. The center blames the September 2001 attacks for helping to "drive up the number of hate groups" that year.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Load don't bother. a fact contrary to his beliefs has never penetrated that thick empty skull

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    of course all of this crap from people like some of the posters here is to attack the source - the facts as Talkleft has posted in additional stories are not in depute--this event did occur and this is just an attempt to obscure it.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    You have hatred of the west and Jews preached in mosques.
    You have hatred of Muslims preached here in the US by a few zealots like Robertson

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    We don't have beheadings and burnings etc, because we have the most powerful armed forces in the world and we not only expected, but knew that retribution was forthcoming. Take away the military power in this country and you would see the same behavior.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    take away the military might and we would revert to savages. I doubt it but I do enjoy your enlightened views on your fellow citizens. Where were the Robertson quotes on beheading muslims? You don't have to like the guy to realize he is light years away from our Islamic friends. Again, I think many posters have a sneaking admiration for the monsters.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Ed - do you mean the monster who mocked Carla Faye Tucker? "Please don't kill me." -George Bush Do you mean that monster?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    "BTW - In spite of the fact that I am a staunch defender of our country, and a hawk on defense, I am neither a Repub or conservative. I am a Jacksonian social liberal in the tradition of Jackson, Franklin, Truman, Humphrey and Scoop Jackson." Call yourself a butterfly or a Martian for all anyone cares, PPJ. Almost everything you do on this website involves bootlicking GOP causes. Defending the likes of Ashcroft, Rove, Dubya, and now Prissy Owen, and yet you want to claim some sort of affection for civil liberties? Oh. And you attacking Load's sources....wow. I mean, really. Guess they didn't meet the high credibility threshold of your tabloid orgy sources like News Max and FOX and Heritage Foundation.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    The press is eating it's own. Sometimes that happens during a feeding frenzy. One gets bit by accident and all the others attack it as wounded prey. I saw it on Wild Kingdom. Jim, There have been no bombings, beheadings, honor killings, etc. from the western world, or from Jerry Fallwaell, or from the Pope... No bombings? No bombings of any kind? Or just the kind you say are the bad bombings. Because there's LOTS of bombings by both sides. It's just that the bombs they set off are the BAD ones, where our bombs are the GOOD ones. Have I got that right?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Yes, the savagery of not pardoning a convicted murderer. I'll tell you what-I'll move to Texas and protest the death penalty; you move to Afghanistan and tell the folks what a bunch of superstitious morons they are. Then, after you are lynched, we can debate cultural relativism.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#60)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Che - You got it, baby. War is bad enough and difficult to prevent. But if you start condone these people blowing up car bombs, etc., then you are condoning terrorism, and that is very difficult to stop. SD - Prove that Fallwell hates Moslems. I don't think you can. glanton - That's because of the subject matter. If you'll note I rarely comment on anything not defense/war related, although sometimes the cultural issues get too far off track for even this liberal. And yes. My BS filter pops up as soon as a I see articles with studies done by the subject of the studies. I mean really. If it is aginst the US, it always correct?

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:06 PM EST
    for starters see this page at Religious tolerance This is yet another discussion we've had in the past from which you learn nothing

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:06 PM EST
    drronchee I think he was referring to the monster that uses cluster munitions on civilian targets, that uses napalm in violation of international treaties, that approves the torture and rape of Muslims, that lies to the people of his country, etc etc

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Jim, You should read your own words. All the acts that you describe are the direct result of our violent and illegal attack on a nation that never touched us. Like a child, you cannot accept blame, only assign it.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    insult to another commenter deleted. Warning.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Scoop Jackson speaking through John Edward has asked you stop calling yourself anything related to him.. and these quotes from Scoop's son Jackson's son Peter, a former speech writer for former Washington Governor, Gary Locke (D), indicates that his father might not agree with where some of his followers have taken his philosophy. "My father would never grandstand or question someone's patriotism. Since he died, the debate has become shriller." Perhaps most telling was his final thoughts emailed to the author of the Seattle Times piece: "Intellectually, neocons are children of a common father, but what can the father do after a lowly few race off and elope with Republicans? Most Dads would sigh, lament their kids' poor taste, but love them anyway."

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Channel a deceased father for political purposes-what a guy. The funny part about the patriotism issue is that when their ideas are questioned, the complainers say it is their patriotism being called into question. I think this is primarily because they can't justify their positions.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#67)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Load - I see you still can't link. Why don't you learn how? And I didn't mention Jackson's son, so why bring him up? Besides, I'm not a conservative. Never have been. Your problem is you don't understand that being liberal does not mean swallowing the bogus positions of the Left, hook, line and sinker. Che - Say what? You need to start viewing this as a WOT on a world wide basis. And you need to read the <"a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html">Kay Report. Praticularly the portion in which he writes of Saddam;'s efforts to get back into the WMD business. And then think about what a nuclear armed al-Qaida terrorist would do to Boston. (Or play pick your city.) Load - That thing in blue spelling Kay Report is called a Link.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#68)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    or .... Kay Report

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    more drivel from you what does the Kay report have to do with this discussion and by the way there has been more information since which did not bear out the possibilities left open in the Kay report... you are not worth bandwidth it takes to respond. We all know the person you are awhite middle class retired middle manager who think he knows everything because he reads LGF. What an odd little world you live in I've read your speeches on your work in the telcom business and my response is --you must have been collecting from pay phoens --thus your early retirment. You are a ignorant person who likes being ignorant and you proudly flaunt it what a complete waste of time

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Ouch... Load, you've taken Blaghdaddy's place in the "Fear and Loathing of PPJ" category. PPJ ain't all that bad, he just has waaaaay toooo much time on his hands... Trust humans to waste far more time arguing about this than it's worth... Burn all the books...if they can do the Dixie Chicks, we'll do the Holy Chicks...

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    PPJ- that's twice now you have forgotten the at the end of your embedded link. Don't strike out, you'll spending plenty of time behind bars if you do. There will be no mercy for such untermenschen.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Don't you hate it when you try to slam someone on a technicality then screw it up yourself!!!!!!!

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    On a practical level, I'm trying to get my head around the concept of flushing a Koran down the toilet. That must have been some toilet. I'd like to get one for my mom: every time I visit her house, my slightest bowel movement causes the toilet to stop up--blame in on those water conservation models, I guess. Even if pages were torn out and flushed, unless the Koran was printed on toilet paper, the toilet would have stopped up pretty quickly. Or was the Koran one of those novelty miniature books? More attention to questions like "How TF can you flush a Koran?" would have made the Newsweek report less preposterous sounding. How did that slip by? Perhaps the Koran was thrown in an outhouse septic toilet? Perhaps a single page was ripped to shreds, then flushed? Perhaps it wasn't flushed, but rather just set on the toilet seat in disrespect? If the truth was something along these lines, Newsweek should have said so.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    It happens everytime. I've made a bigger fool of myself in the past. That's what I get for not using the 'preview'. doggone it anyhow.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#76)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Load - The Kay Report was for Che. BIOR, the universe doesn't revolve around you. And BTW - I note I shamed you into actually using a link to back up your claims. And you may make as many mistakes doing so as you like. The important thing is, to do it.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Qur'ans come in all sizes, big and small. If I had to guess, I would say that in order to generate maximum outrage, the interrogator would most likely throw the entire Qur'an in the toilet, and proceed to urinate on it. Detainees could then be made to pick it out and throw it away. I am not saying that that is what happened, only that that is one likely scenario, given the goals and objectives of the interrogators.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    After reading the Kay report you still say efforts = imminent threat? So all these people died because of an effort? Quite a leap. And spare me the WOT scenario. That's just lame excuse # 12 for the illegal feces of a war that your pet monkey is flinging at us. With the British revelations the true lie is finally exposed to the US public. There's nowhere to hide on this one. WOT Give me a f***ing break. Oh yes, I almost forgot. Please insert: "Bush never used the words imminent threat." here.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#79)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Che`- Why do you keep stepping on it? Doesn't it hurt? No. Bush never used "imminent threat" in his '03 SOTU. Read it here. In fact, he states the opposite. "Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option." Posted by at May 16, 2005 10:00 PM

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Jim, I guess the Brits made your above post moot. It was all BS. Monkey Boy was lying then, and now everyone knows it. The more we find out, the sillier you sound.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#81)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Che - Brits? You're becoming irrational. Read what Bush said. He specifically ruled out waiting until the threat is imminent. That is his preemptive strategy. You know, we won't wait for the terrorists. We'll go after them now. I sure hope you can read patient's medical charts better than you demonstrate here.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#82)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Moses - And the scenario you don't want to consider? It never happened.

    Re: Newsweek: 'Never Mind' Koran Report? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:09 PM EST
    Jim, Well I guess the "pre-emptive strategy" was from the moment Monkey Boy was coronated by the SC. At least according to Paul O'neill AND the British. And they were there, you were not. You're becoming irrational I sure hope you can read patient's medical charts better than you demonstrate here. Once again the losing position gives up and resorts to the ever-handy personal attack. Can't find an OBL quote?