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Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flusher Turned Over

Does anyone else sense another elevated terror threat warning is about to occur, coincidentally on the eve of the Republican threat to launch their nuclear option?

Today, Afghan clerics threatened a holy war in three days unless the U.S. turns over the Guantanamo military interrogator who allegedly flushed a Koran down the toilet.

The clerics in the northeastern province of Badakhshan said they wanted U.S. President George W. Bush to handle the matter honestly "and hand the culprits over to an Islamic country for punishment. If that does not happen within three days, we will launch a jihad against America," said a statement issued by about 300 clerics, referring to Muslim holy war, after meeting in the main mosque in the provincial capital, Faizabad.

It sounds like the clerics could care less about the Newsweek semi-retraction. Although, to be fair, the cleric who made the threat is located in a "mountainous, conservative province near the borders of Tajikistan and China." It's certainly possible the Newsweek retraction hadn't reached him yet.

But it's also possible the U.S. got word of the threatened holy war via Internet chatter and pressured the government official who was the Newsweek source to change his story.

Even so, the story hasn't changed much. It's gone from the source saying he saw it in a military report to him saying he didn't know if he saw it in a military report or some other kind of report. What kind of retraction is that? In review, Newsweek today says:

Two weeks ago, in our issue dated May 9, Michael Isikoff and John Barry reported in a brief item in our Periscope section that U.S. military investigators had found evidence that American guards at the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had committed infractions in trying to get terror suspects to talk, including in one case flushing a Qur'an down a toilet. Their information came from a knowledgeable U.S. government source, and before deciding whether to publish it we approached two separate Defense Department officials for comment. One declined to give us a response; the other challenged another aspect of the story but did not dispute the Qur'an charge.

....Although other major news organizations had aired charges of Qur'an desecration based only on the testimony of detainees, we believed our story was newsworthy because a U.S. official said government investigators turned up this evidence. So we published the item.

....Last Friday, a top Pentagon spokesman told us....the Pentagon had investigated other desecration charges by detainees and found them "not credible." Our original source later said he couldn't be certain about reading of the alleged Qur'an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts.

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  • Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#1)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:04 PM EST
    Each day i see the human race for what it is, we are all alike the same bull lives inside us all the same lines of lies in each person on this good earth. what a joke, killing for a god that is as pointless as can be, and all the so called religion on this earth is nothing but a joke, and the religious would love to start killing billions for a god that none have known. but on a high note! maybe bush can do some outsourcing of jobs to the nut cases in the little pakistani world, but lets all face facts bush is helping old Osama more and more each day. keep it up and maybe we can have a war with old red china, so much fun in a mind dead world, oh yes! how many jihad do we have now? can i have a personal jihad set against me? can i buy one?..holy cats are the real gods of this earth, or is it holy money? help,help.

    deleted

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#3)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Strictly speaking, the perps here are the Newsweek staff. Hand them over. What a lame apology. It's clear they are sorry they got busted...period. They knew what they were doing, they were not suprised by the result. They'll do it again at the next opportunity.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#4)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Fred - you were being sarcastic, but you can have a personal jihad against you. See Salmon Rushde, or the guy in the Netherlands who was reciently assassinated by muslim extremeists. We do all have evil within us, but that's not the fault of religion. In the age of the crusades, yes it was. Even though the first crusade was justified as a response to the Muslims and their forced conversion or die scheme they were perpuatating in the lands they captured. Since the Crusades enlightenment has occurred. Christians still prostelize, often obnixousley, but it is peaceful. Most Muslims also are peaceful, though convert or die is still a mantra among terrorists as has been pointed out numerous times. The problem doesn't lie within the religions, but rather in those who would warp the meaning of the teachings they claim to believe. Look in the mirror Fred, and see a part of the problem with the world today. Same goes for me. Same goes for anyone. That's where the problem is to be found. Even if you didn't have religion you would have the same problems in the world, only the mantra would change. The question isn't what is the cause of the problems in the world. The question is when you look in the mirror what do you do to fight the deamon you see? Do you try to see other people's plights and prospectives and consider them when you act, or has the deamon taken contol of you?

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#5)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    I once wrote a poem that far better expresses the thoughts I tried to convey in the post above. Hopefully it does a better job of conveying the message I menat to send above. PS don't read anything into the fact pattern of the poem. What Will I See When I look into your eyes all I see is hate a hate that so consumes you I barely recgonise your face. I know seeing your wife's shattered body cuts you to the core, but you must stop obsessing or your spirit will mirror her body. Her bones will mend, and her wounds will heal, and that should be enough to temper the way you feel. But it's not. And I fear she's the lucky one. Drugs can anesthetise her pain. Words may not be enough to anesthetise yours. But I'll try to speak them if you'll let me. Or are you so far gone that you don't care what you do as long as you get your revenge. Tonight you must choose which path you will take. You can take the path of healing, or you can succumb to your hate. Tomorrow when I look into your eyes will I see something besides hate, or will you have done something so rash you won't let me see your face.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#6)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    I wonder if the familes of the people killed in the riots have a case against Newsweek? If it happened here, lawyers would be falling over each other to get in on this.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#7)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    As the saying goes, the chickens have come home to roost. One of the worse things that you can do to a group of people is disrespect their religion. Being a Republican means never having to own up to the consequences of your actions. We should have a full open and independent investigation of what is going on in Guantanamo before those bozos who are operating the prison do more damage. Of course, I know that Republicans will also support this because they believe that none of the alleged abuse happened (sarcasm alert) and we have nothing to hide.

    Whoever these people are in the Republican Party, they aren't Republicans. With any luck, they will absquatulate. Seems as though recruitment quotas are down by more than half. Over 5,000 enlisted personnel that have served in Iraq are now awol. Pulling a George Bush, I guess. If that isn't an antiwar movement, then nothing is. The chickens have indeed come home to roost. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are lost, but not over.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Hey Big Tex, save the self righteous banter for every kid in Africa that dies from AIDS because some Priest or Catholic Missionary told their mother that it was a grave sin to use a condom......

    Ricky, you are going to get deleted. I suggested the same thing in post 2. On the merits, we are not likely to turn anyone over to the Afghanis, heck we won't even submit to the authority of the World Court. Get ready for more random violence against Americans who had little or nothing to do with the events that have made so many people around the world feel they are justified when they kill one of us.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#11)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    et al - I wonder what your reaction would be if Jerry Fallwell called for a jihad against the individuals shown burning our flag? Ricky1756 - Love ya baby! Thanks for showing your colors. CA - Missed yours, but hugs anyway. I know you have never had it so good. et al - Now, somebody tell me about "moderate" moslems and show me some condemnation of the actions in the ME over this subject. Like it or not, this is a WOT, and the base material is religious fanatics that have nothing better to do than riot, kill and burn whenever directed to do so by their leaders.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    It's just a book, simply bound pieces of paper. Nothing to kill another human being over. These clerics need to chill, and stop taking their superstitions so seriously. Granted, some actions of our govt, and military have been disrespectful of Islam. But drawing blood to exact revenge for an inanimate object, in this case a book, is madness. I beg all religous extremists to join me in the 21st century, and leave the holy wars and crusades in the middle ages. Enough is enough, they are just superstitions.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    PPJ - we have shown you over and over the reactions of moderate muslims but you purposely ignore this so that you can justify the crimes of this administration. Clearly as we have discussed so many times in the past this is not a WOT else we would have invaded a country that actually had something to do with the WOT. But don't let facts get in the way. Just keep up your dishonest self-rightous talk. every one knows you for what you are. Pathetic.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#14)
    by Rick B on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    KDog, they aren't going to chill. They worship the book. It is their graven image, exactly like our fundamentalists worship the Bible. The book is their true God, because they are so literal that there must be a physical representation there for them to worship. They also get TV (or Newsweek at least) and they know they can't compete in the modern world, so they reject the modern world by retreating to their fantasy religion. Then they see their fellow co-religionists on TV or in Newsweek getting a lot of attention and being taken seriously by declaring silly Jihads. The process takes little education, almost no intellectual work at all, and gives them the attention of the modern people who they envy and detest. For them it is all reward, no pain and no real effort. That's what fundamentalist religion is all about, and the more extreme version is fundamentalist religion with violence towards outsiders. We are seeing it in the Kansas Board of Education as well as the mountains of Afghanistan. We also see it in gang wars here in the US. {"Don't diss me. I'll kill you."] Being successful in modern life is a lot harder than adopting a religion or a gang and letting your extremists kill outsiders for you.

    Mainstream Responds to anti-Muslim remarks in Norman Transcript Mainstream Baptists passionately believe that the gospel is the “good news” that God loves people and has a wonderful plan for their lives. We do not believe that the gospel is a message about Mohammed being “a demon possessed pedophile,” as former SBC President Jerry Vines proclaimed at the Southern Baptist Convention in June. Neither do we believe that the gospel is a message about Islam being “a very evil and wicked religion” or the allegation that “terrorism is part of mainstream Islam” as Franklin Graham proclaimed in August. Nor do we believe that the gospel is a message that “Mohammad was a terrorist” as Jerry Falwell proclaimed on CBS’s “60 minutes “ six days before our ads appeared. These incendiary attacks on Islam are not a small, insignificant matter that can be glossed over and ignored. The gospel we proclaim and the way we proclaim it is fundamental to our faith. The lives of people around the world are literally at stake. As Dwight A. Moody, at Georgetown College said, “Simply put, this speech is more likely to result in the burial of a Baptist than the baptism of a Muslim.”

    It is always fascinating how the tiny little 15% of the world (and the US) who fail to notice God's existence get so arrogant over all of us superstitious fools that do get it. Spiro Agnew called them "effete intellectual snobs" (at the time I was offended). Now wasn't the problem here the non-religious (in motivation at least) folk at Gitmo who were attempting to kick the supports out from someone who they were trying to get information from. [After all, it was only a book - pieces of paper] Or perhaps (if this didnt even happen - or happened once sometime) the probably secular graduates of the Institute of Informational Creativity (many Iraq analysts from the CIA attended this fine school as well) who made this up (or hyped it up). Now the Afghans get to sit back and read the news about abuse at Gitmo, in Iraq, etc. They were probably pretty upset before this. Now they get this. How can the superstitious fools be so upset?

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    You are right Rick, but a man can dream. I just find it so difficult to relate to the religous nuts. Are you that insecure in your faith that what a "non-believer" does to a book is worth drawing blood over? Sheer madness I tell you, madness.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Get pissed about your countrymen being unlawfully detained, get pissed about the occupation of your country, get pissed about the people dying everyday over religion....Just don't get pissed over the mistreatment of a book, it makes you look ridiculous.

    Hey K-DOG, you'll like Blaghdaddy's blog from Saturday, if that's how you feel... :-) This subject isn't over by a long shot...religious fundamentalists are the same the world over...here and there....

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#20)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    To all: my people made this country so we could get away from the evils of the world, now you have all come here to do your evil acts of mass murder, can't wait until people start getting killed off by the millions, much love...the gods are looking at you all. I have my nuke do you?. buy more each so god will be happy. The odyssey will never end, What fun. Do you really know what i think of your gods little people's of the world. I am that I am.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#21)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Wait, wait my cat is telling me something, Yes,Yes, my cat is talking to the big god. Oh no! my cat just told me god, or the big mother cat is mad as hell and won't take it any-more. she wants people to take care of the little human's and little beings of this Earth, or you will have a cat jihad on you all soon, wait,wait, bush is talking to the other god, "can't hear you from hell bush". best do what mother tells you to do, foolish little people. let holy war start, you are all under my cats protection, oh yes.got to use the bath-room now, must do a bush.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Load - I don't care what you believe, or what Moslems believe. Just as long as you and the Moslems act in a reasonable manner, don't cut off heads, don't do honor killings on female family members, don't demand to be left alone no matter what, etc., etc. You know. Act like you are the tolerant people you claim to be. Join the rest of us in the 21st century. SD - You keep posting two, three year old comments/articles. In the meantime I hear nothing on TV, nothing on the radio and see nothing in the newspapers. Can you show me a major Moslem figure in the US condemning the riots, etc? I hope you can.

    does anyone really believe this riot was inspired entirely by newsweek? these people have been pushed to the brink, to them its just one of many abuses that receives little or no punishment. ig (prison scandals, destruction of cities, torture, killing of unarmed civilians and POWs, targeting journalists). Some of these allegations are true, others are most likely are not, but because of the lack of creditability there is little that can be done unless drastic changes in foreign policy are made.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:06 PM EST
    PPJ they aren't going to be on FOX or worldnet or that other crap you listen too.

    Hey Fred My wife has heard voices from things like cats; but she saw a psychiatrist and the medications have cut the voices out completely. We both still join the other 85% of the world who believe in supreme beings of some sort.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Blagh...that about sums it up...my sentiments exactly. Tonight I'm gonna have my own private protest...I will flush the koran, the bible, and the torah down the toilet in unison. A curse on all your bloody houses.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Blagh, I fully agree with you guys on this religious fanatacism issue, but you're getting Kdog all riled up.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    SD - You keep posting two, three year old comments/articles Does this mean you will shelve the '97 OBL interview you have pasted to your forehead?

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#29)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Of course, me being more practical than most bozos here want to know what kind of toilet that had pipes large enough to handle a Koran. Did they get a stick and shove it down while they flushed? If it was tore up I am sure the idiots who made the accusation would have said that. The only way to flush it would have been to physically stuff it down there by force and then call the base plumber. Ask them, they would know. Public works on Gitmo is civil servant run.

    love the all too typical moral relativism. the torah and the bible did not cause the rioting nor cause the Islamic world to be so backwards.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#31)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    to,Gregz we all know this was a setup job, but the question is who is doing it? i know bush knows we got to get out soon, but this will not end with us getting the hell out of iraq, its just the start of the third world war, sad world isn't it? by the way who said my cat wasn't a supreme being? In a free world words cannot get you killed, only in a world of fools can words kill you. Hey Bush, Gen.Washington is coming back With FDR to beat the hell out of your low life butt.

    As usual ppj only posts doesn't bother to read.. he/she asked for evidence of this behavior from Falwell...I posted it..in it's context with remarks from other fundie leaders and the response from another Baptist..has nothing to do with what I or Muslims believe but what people in America who are friends of the president espouse and probably believe try actually reading responses ..you might not continues to be such a moron

    Hey guys, Blagh was away for a couple of hours...KDOG, glad to have your vote... Blagh's gonna post a blog tonight that will have every religious person howling for his head...not just Jihad, man, he's gonna blow the lid off Christianity, Judaism (oh boy, he can't wait for the "Anti-Semite" labels, never mind he's married to a "Semite"), he's just choosing his words until the right hour... Blaghdaddy must come from another planet, for he really doesn't understand how grown adults can say with a straight face: "My God's better than yours." "Oh yeah? Your God sucks!" >whack< >bam< >boom< It's a bloody Batman episode, dudes, and the religious have lost their minds. What would Jesus have done? Yeah, he'd have rioted and called for the deaths of people. You twits.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#34)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Che - No. CNN is a MSM source. Of course since you haven't read the interview, you didn't know that. SD - So I guess the answer is you have no sources in the MSM. Figures. Load - You need to understand. God invented links so when you have a point you can let the other party read your source. Otherwise they may not believe you. In my case, I definitely don't believe you unless I see the source. As for the dude from Georgetown, I believe he is just another person making excuses for the radical Moslems. Now, if you can prove differently by presenting some of his other writings, please do so.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#35)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Blagh - Sounds wonderful. Reminds me of those old time editorials pushing next month's issue of Ranch Romances.

    And JCFLEETGUY: No one has a problem with people believing in a higher being. It's when these same people want to beat up/shoot/condemn/burn others who say things like "There is no God" or "God blows..." So what? If someone says someone unsavory about your beliefs, who gave anyone the authority to be the religion police? Unless you live in a theocracy, Blaghdaddy doesn't care if people roast pork with new Korans, liberals with Bibles, or cheeseburgers with Torahs... So you're offended? You have every right to be. Do you have a right to take action against someone? Blaghdaddy says, "No f*#king way...."

    the quotes all come with location and time and place and they are the quotes of Baptist leaders insulting the muslim religion... you just cannot accept that you ar wrong Falwell has made inflamatory remarks you asked for it and got itand now you don't want to accept it just as you made up excuses for everything else that proves you wrong

    atta-Load... Funny how people forget the first amendment and its guarantee of freedom of religion... Funny, it doesn't say that "if you think abortions are against God's word, go bomb clinics..." It doesn't say, "If you think Terri Schiavo's death offends God, re-write the same laws your party has fought for over 200 years to preserve..." It doesn't say, "If you think a rap song violate's God's laws, BAN IT..." The religious right are as loony as the loony Muslims and the loony guys with the pigtails who stone cars on the Sabbath. Question: Isn't hanging around an overpass all day, and gathering stones to hurl a form of "work?" Just wondering....

    not that it will do any good because you apparently cannot read but link 1 link2 link3 now how about some links for the drivel you post...

    Still waiting.....

    inflammatory remarks? that is where you draw a comparison? frankly, it is a religion deserving of inflammatory remarks.

    And Christianity isn't, Ed? You agree with the Crusades (where rigteous Christians raped and looted their OWN villages on the way to the Middle East), the Inquisition, the witch trials, slavery (yes, we must teach the savages Christianity), and letting millions of Africans catch AIDS because birth control might "upset God?" Ed, you're sorrier than you sound...

    the torah and the bible did not cause the rioting nor cause the Islamic world to be so backwards.
    Actually, I would posit demagogues cause the rioting. You have to do a little work if you want to prove the books (left out the Koran) do. (Quotes, analysis,scripture study). Might even have to prove people do not have a legitimate beef.

    Get rid of the books and the loons will follow... Everyone must have forgotten the loon in Georgia who felt he couldn't rule from the bench unless he had his ten-ton pacifier- sorry, marble copy of the Ten Commandments in the front foyer...

    what a silly post. christianity created slavery? which comic book series did you study for your history lessons? christianity, a relatively minor religion in Africa, causing AIDS? again, silly but simplistic arguments are the norm for you. if you want to froth, be my guest, but you might want to keep things in the last century.

    Hey Blahdaddy, Let's get a little common ground (I think I actually like you) philosophically. I like these two essays by the same writer: The problems with liberalism and conservatism. Perhaps it will add a little light (rather than heat) to the politics and religion arguments (oh anyone else is welcome to read them)

    Blagh's heading out, Fleet, but he's bookmarked the sites and will peruse them later this evening...the funny thing is, Blagh's working on two blogs called "The problem with Conservatives" and "Why is America SO PISSED OFF?" Great minds should be committed, no? Take care, everyone, Blagh hopes to drop in again later and ward off PPJ and Ed... Later!!

    Public works on Gitmo is civil servant run.
    Yeah Wile and guess who got the contract to build those toilets? The War on Terror...a veritable cash cow for the well-connected.

    Let me lean a little to the left for a moment. Maybe we should be telling those in Afghanistan and Iraq that we are no longer "One Nation Under God" but a divided nation who pull our faith and morals out of a hat. Self rightiousness rules and strictly depends on what is popular at the moment, or "what the court rules in favor of". Fear is a big decision maker in this country and moral opinion changes as frequently as we change our clothes. All depends on who is doing the talking. We now have to hide displays of the Ten Commandments because, well, it's no longer popular to follow those commandments...times have changed. It's 2005! Now we can make our own decision of what is right or wrong based on the courts opinion, news reports, Hollywood, and whatever reason sounds good to us...after all, we are a free nation! Our faith is no longer in the God that this Nation originally believed in. Now we are the Gods, dictating morals occording to our own opinions. I just can't decide which God I like the best. I guess that it should depend on where the money and media attention is at. I give credit to the Nation of Islam for their lack of division, because our division is as great as a nation being hit by a massive tornado. Pay attention people. If our nation had started out in this manner, we would not have become a free nation. If the Nation of Islam is so equal in peace and love as the Christian faith, what is wrong with Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, and the other nations over there? Why have they, for many years, been coming to our great country to live? Hum.... However, we can continue the course of throwing out or hiding Christianity and our support for one and another, and become like those nations. Sounds like a good idea, Huh? After all, they are truly examples of nations who decided long ago to keep Christianity out. We can see how well it worked for them. Surely it will work for us too!

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#50)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Religion in Africa causing AIDS. What a hoot. This presumes a guy doing a hooker at a truck stop--against the laws of the church--thinks of using a condom but decides not to because the church says he shouldn't. Another of those things you have to be nuts or lefty to believe. You have to be nuts to even pretend to believe it, considering how silly it makes you look. Some BS you can get away with because it's too boring for normal people to think about. This is different. Right away, this marks you as...faaarr out, man.

    TJL USA...maybe people come to this country to get away from the type of theocracy that you would like us all to be living in?

    Your right ricky1756. There should be separation of church and state, but that will never happen as long as government dictates moral standards. It has become the religion of this nation, but you find this exceptable. Is this not the process of how some religions came to be. Put a title on it and it'll be the next. Russia? Go ahead and move over there. For some people, it takes going to where they think the grass is greener to learn it really isn't.

    Ernesto Del Mundo, I'll just have to tell God that although He created the earth and everything that lives, He now should keep His nose out of it because we have a government that knows better. Or gee, maybe there isn't a God. Maybe we just came from a big explosion.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#55)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Blagh - You couldn't ward off a bad cup of truckstop coffee, much less an intelligent comment. ;-) ..and Blagh... That was Alabama, not Georgia. Not that we want accuracy or anything. ricky1756 - Please go. I have lots of experience in dealing with the Russians, and the Soviets before them. They will love to have you. Uh-huh. BTW - Just a bit of advice. They don't tolerate insults very well, so you might try some "be cautious" training before you leave. DA - So now the Moslem terrorists are the same as a religious US person who believes that evolution is wrong. Hey, how can I debate logic like that? TJL USA - Nicely put.

    TJL USA...do me a lil favor and ask your God to protect me and the US Constitution from all those who believe in Him, OK? Thanks, dear. :)

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#57)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    Load - From the FOURTH paragraph of your Link 1: "JOHN ESPOSITO (Professor of Islam, Georgetown University): It perpetuates this theology of hate, which is very dangerous. They are not violent people. But their level of intolerance can in fact feed violent actions" This guy is apologizing for the terrorists. Take this back to the civil rights days: "Bubba isn't a violent person. But his level of intolerance can if fact feed violent actions." Would you condone that statement? If not, what is the difference. (See why I want links??) BTW - Neither you or SD has provided any links to any moderate US Moslem calling for, well, moderation. Wile - Loverly, loverly. The golden monkey wrench award is yours.;-) Ernesto - Who ever told you God is in the business of protecting unbelievers? Blagh - And the Crusades were quite a while ago. Don't you think you need something just a little more modern to complain about?

    As Blagh said, PPJ, "David Koresh?" "Benny Hinn?" Recent enough for you? As promised, kdog, Blaghdaddy didn't want to head off to bed withouting leaving you his blog on all religious extremists...he thinks you'll like... Disclaimer: If anyone is curious and wishes to visit, but is religiously sensitive and easily offended, do yourselves a favor and pass...don't say you weren't warned!! Goodnight all, argue with you tomorrow!! Blagh

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#59)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    To; what a Load, yes i am a low life! a no good low life, so what? and thank you for the link's...people read his links, but remember this is normal in the world or the third world people's to kill each other over so called religious reason's. the fact is if you have 50 million people crying out for the death of others, that people become your enemy. in one or all 3 links falwell is called a good for nothing, and what a loads point is he will tell you his views of this war.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#61)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    DA - When people start comparing disbelief in evolution with terrorism, I simply tune out. It is silly in the extreme, no matter if the author was a Christian, Moslem or an Alien From Outer Space. Blagh - What you are trying to do is establish moral equivalency between Christians and Moslem Terrorists. Won't work, bro. Like it or not, deviancy is not well received in the Christian faiths, especially if it includes various trespassess of conventional moral issues. That is not true of the Islamic faith. I will note "honor killing" as one small issue that should have every feminist in the world on their feet and screaming. That it does not speaks volumes about the state of the movement in the world.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#63)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    et al PPJ is purposely dishonest. He has no interest in debate or learning new ideas. He has stated that his purpose is to "keep us honest" or words to that effect. He is part of the noise machine whose purpose is to distort and prevent people from talking about the major issues. This week alone he has trotted out at least 4 old arguments that have been hashed to death before and there hasn't been the slightest change. This is all probably cut and past. The only approach is to ignore him. (Yeh I know its hard and I need to listen to my own advice). Otherwise these comment sections become flooded with crap. They have become close to useless anyway because of him and 1 or 2 others.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#64)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    ricky1756 - Don't forget your longhandles. Those Russian winters are long, dark and very, very cold. DA - The argument that materialism is the foe of Islam is one of the base excuses given for OBL's hatred of the west. The author concurs: "For Muslim youngsters living in the United States or in Western Europe, the popular profane life is colorful and attractive. They may not lose their faith altogether, but they lose a coherent identity based on that faith. They become cultural wanderlings. The resulting psychological trauma in these young people can have a much worse side effect: As we have seen in the September 11 conspirators, an identity crisis can turn some young Muslims into terrorists. Seeking asylum from the distress they feel for being renegade Muslims, they think they can find peace in a radical political ideology, a kind of necrophilic nihilism, hidden under the cloak of Islam." He then continues and makes a case for ID. And seeing as how ID has been thoroughly condemned by others on this blog as accepted by only right wing wingnuts who have also been condemned, again on this blog, as terrorists themselves, then I see that you have a linkage between the two in the minds of many. The author may mean well, but he starts from the wrong place. The problem isn't with modern liberal ideas of the west, but the teaching of these young people that jihad is good, honor killings are required, etc., long before they are old enough to be lured by the isms of the west. And I also did not see a condemnation of the actions of these people who attack and kill. What I see is a mental health excuse and a blaming of the victims.

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    I do like blag...as George Carlin said, if Jesus were to "come again:, our great-grandkids will all be wearing little gold electric chairs around their necks. Well done sir. As I was re-reading some Vonnegut last night, I was reminded of the humanist approach. What's wrong with doing good for goodness sake? Why the need to create a fictional paradise after death as a reward? Are human beings that selfish that they won't do good without being threatened with eternal damnation and bribed with eternal happiness? I don't need to believe in an all- powerful boogeyman in the sky to know right from wrong. Why does 85% of the world?

    The humanist approach has been tried quite often. The end result in Cambodia, the Soviet Union and Red China did leave a little something to be desired.

    The Muslims are at it again...anyone see the breaking news on the cracker in Virginia who has just been arrested for having an assault rifle and home-made bombs in his car...and the cops have just found more bombs and chemicals in his home... Blaghdaddy figures this MUST be a Muslim fundamentalist who bleached himself white, took the white name of "Kent" and who is secretly plotting another Oklahoma so he can destroy the "Great Satan..." If he isn't, it kind of throws the whole "Muslims are our enemies" thesis into the "toilet," doesn't it? Could it be that ANYONE could be a terrorist, or is this Kent guy just a "patriot" who has a very good reason for plotting to blow up things in America? Ed? PPJ?

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#68)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    "Cracker"? Nice racist language there. I don't think anyone has said muslims have the market cornered on terrorism, so that would be a strawman argument no?
    If he isn't, it kind of throws the whole "Muslims are our enemies" thesis into the "toilet," doesn't it?
    Not necessarily.

    Dark Avenger: In regards to your comment on the "Ten Commandments", there are several translations of the Bible out there, each worded slightly different then the next secondary to the fact that the original Bible was not in English...this is common sense. However, although worded somewhat differently, they all say the same thing. This may be hard to comprehend if English is your second lanquage, however. Funny though, my friends in my Bible study group, from the middle east and India, have all understood the various translations as being the same. Are you sure that you are referring to a Bible? Kdog: It is a sad day when one can say they would rather think that they came from nothing and are going nowhere. What does that leave inbetween? How do you determine right from wrong? There are people out there that believe that blowing themselves up and taking other lives with them is the right thing to do. They are not just killing Americans. They are killing their own people. When they they brought down the World Trade Towers, they brought down many people from many countries and many religions. They thought that what they were doing was right. Right from wrong must have an origin. That origin is neither you nor I. My son said it best when he said, "mom, I don't know what to believe because everyone seems to believe something different". He's right. There may be some common believes among people that unite them, but without a common origin, one's opinion of right and wrong can vary from a small amount to a large, especially when it is determined by your personal opinion, which can change fron day to day. Religion is not the culprit here, neither is the Republican, the Democrat, the left, or the right. We all have the same God, and the same Jesus died for every one of us regardless of whether or not we choose to believe in Him or not. We, too, all have the same enemy, and it is non of the above. The enemy is the author of confusion, strife, and so on, and he probably loves this site.

    "I don't need to believe in an all- powerful boogeyman in the sky to know right from wrong." kdog, now that's a funny comment coming from you after so many debates with others here on TL who've shown you that you don't know right from wrong on many issues. Why are you so insecure and threatened by some "book, simply bound pieces of paper" that might actually be full of insight and wisdom and answers from people who spent years, decades, sometimes entire lives, struggling with devining right from wrong? Why are you so selfish to think, by the mere fact of being kdog, that you innately have all the answers? But, hey, it's ok, I used to be young too and had all the answers right inside my head just like you. Amazing what you learn after a few years and a few tears.

    actually, weren't those countries "agrarian reformers"; no, wait, "socialists"; wait, I got it, "socialists". As far as the cracker with the gun, I am not too worried about a nut, even one like McVeigh. He could kill people-I really do not think our country was in any global danger from him and his kind. I can't say the same about the Islamists and pathologies.

    Dark Avenger: Not every person who says they are Christian are Christian but I speak for those who show that they are Christian by following the teachings of Jesus Christ and know that he is truly present. I've seen the love of God with my very own eyes unlike people who are just to blind to see him, like yourself. So more along the lines, I know what I'm talking about. I am a Muslim convert to Christianity and I have studied on the Koran myself. As a Christian convert, who chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, I know beyond doubt that one who claims Christ as their savior would not have thrown the Koran down the toilet. We love all people, including yourself. Throwing a Koran down the toilet is clearly an act of one who does not claim Christ as their savior. If that even happened. From the 18yr. old son of TJL USA Dark Avenger: I'm an athiest convert who attended a Baptist Christian school, and attended many Baptist, Pentacostal, Presbyiterian, and Catholic churches throughout my life. That was more than enough to convert anyone away from religion. I apparently know where you are coming from. However, God is much greater then a denomination or a multitude of books. Jesus didn't carry a book around, nor did He find one worth going to the cross for. What came out of Him was from His relationship with God, His love for God and all of God's creation. It's not about a book, my friend, or how much you have memorized and researched. When you choose to except Christ as your savior, which He is, all your years of research will add up to wasted time. Jesus is not about the amount of time that you want to spend researching and disproving/proving His Word. Your level of intellect is not where it is at. The most intelligent person on this earth still can't tell you how earth and man came to be. Therefor, intellect is clearly limited. By the way, I did refer to google and the Catholic Ten Commandments. Separated verses does not make for a new commandment. Some of the verses are pre and post descriptions of the actual commandment. Again, I say, there are various translations, however the, "Ten Commandments" remain the same and in the same order, regardless of translation. Second, no one ever said that God gave no other commands to His people. Laws are all through the Bible, but that doesn't make them part of the "Ten Commandments". Did anyone ever see Disney's, Bambi? Remember when Thumper's mom told him, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". Is this not what we teach our children? Shame on Newsweek...or is this to conservative for 2005!

    Ricky1756: Is that the best you can do?

    PPJ...I am not worried about God so much as I am worried about people who believe in God. Ed...why does this murderous "Red China" have most favored nation trade status anyway?

    Dark Avenger: Okay, you may be right about that. My apologies to you. Now, back to the Torah talk. Can we agree that the whole thing is rediculous from beginning to end? Treat people with respect, don't report things that we know will cause insanity in the middle east, and stop the rioting and killing over a book. As Rodney King put it "can't we all just get along". It's not about Muslims or Christians. It's about ignorant people. Can we agree on that?

    Re: Afghan Clerics Threaten Holy War Unless Flush (none / 0) (#79)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:10 PM EST
    DA writes - "ID has been condemned because it's a bunch of handwaving, as it isn't a scientific theory that can be tested like gravity, the theory or relativity, etc." Uh, where is the proof for Darwin? How about some consensus science? But hey, he is your man. And look! He has advanced to the point he can embrace an idea that the Left in the US condemns as being an invention of the far radical right! Who, the Left tells us, is just itching to attack the country. And no. He describes a condition, but he doesn't condemn the action caused by the condition. i.e. Rabies is bad. Okay. Now, is the mad dog biting people bad? You can tell where they are at when they can't type a simple declarative sentence: "All terrorist attacks are evil and must not be condoned. All honor killings must cease." See how easy? Wonder why we can't find an American Moslem saying this on TV and/or the MSM press.