Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail

A new government report shows our prison population is soaring.

  • 1 of every 138 U.S. residents are in jail
  • The prison population grew by 900 inmates per week between 2003 and 2004.
  • 8,000 more prisoners were admitted to federal prisons than were released
  • 2.1 million people are housed in our prisons and jails.

8 counties had double digit increases, the largest being Clark County, Nevada; Fulton County, Georgia; and Orange County, California, all of which were up by 20 percent.

More details here. The full report is here (pdf).

America. Prison Nation.

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    Think of it as public housing then it shows that we are spending billions on the homeless and mentally ill. Sort of like the Reagan years when we declared ketchup a vegetable for the purposes of federal school lunch program.

    within 20 years, it will be 1 in 50, so have fun backing bush, but someday you or one of yours will be going. just think of it as fun and games in the empire.

    Yes, if you think there are a lot of people in prison now, wait until bankruptcy reform takes hold.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#4)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:49:44 PM EST
    You know, down in Texas we got a word for that. Freedom.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#5)
    by scarshapedstar on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:50:21 PM EST
    (wink, smirk) (wild applause and bible thumping from audience)

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#6)
    by cp on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:53:01 PM EST
    hey, at least bush can rightfully claim one part of the economy is on an upswing! lol

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#7)
    by wishful on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:06:26 PM EST
    pm has an excellent point. Once they are successful at eliminating the middle class, all of us increasing number of poor people will still love our kids. We will do what it takes to keep them fed and healthy, even if we don't earn enough money or have insurance. Do you guys know that diarrhea is one of the leading causes of childhood death in poor countries? It is excruciatingly painful but eminently preventable, except for the have-nots when we become a have and have-not society. I for one will not let that happen to mine--you'll have to take my kids' food and medicine from my cold dead hands. The threat of prison is nothing compared to the threat of my child's hunger, illness, or worse. The Bushies may be sorry when they finally get everything they want.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 05:51:23 AM EST
    Staggering numbers man. I simply refuse to believe 1 out of every 138 belong in chains. Off the top of my head, 1 in 10,000 seems more appropriate.

    I have read this post and the comments. I realize this site is called 'TalkLeft' but are you advocating criminals should not be in jail? Are you trying to say the sentences are too long? It says the reason there are more people in prison is because it is harder to get out early. "8,000 more prisoners were admitted to federal prisons than were released" Are you saying inmates should be released for more to enter so that the # stays the same? I agree that there are too many people in jail for too long for non-violent offenses. Offenses that didn't involve anyone but themselves - like getting caught with a doobie. We also have a problem with VIOLENT criminals who are released and commit VIOLENT crimes again - many of them against OUR children. Should more of them be released to make room for new inmates? NO! The 'War on Drugs' is what has put most of these people in jail. I just don't see how anyone can blame it on Pres.Bush. He did not start the program and you need to go after the people who want to keep it in place (besides Bush) if you are going to accomplish anything. Let THEM know how you feel.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#10)
    by roger on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 06:41:45 AM EST
    Dawn, We have been letting THEM know how we feel for years. They seem not to care. You do have a valid point, in that minimum mandatory sentences for drug crimes forces the early release of real criminals. The war on drugs did not start under W, but it has rapidly accelerated under him. Where I live, the local jail is undergoing a hugh expansion, and they still dont have enough space. $500 worth of cocaine gets you 15 years. Seems excessive.

    Dawn Drug offenders now make up more than half of all federal prisoners. You can bet they are the low level ones that are subject to mandatory prison terms. Drug offenders are subject to longer sentences than violent offenders. Worth the cost or not?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#12)
    by desertswine on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 08:12:58 AM EST
    An estimated 12.6 percent of all black men in their late 20s were in jails or prisons.
    This is a loss of an entire generation of people and a racial horror story.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#13)
    by Johnny on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 08:36:28 AM EST
    It will soon be 1 out of a 100, then 1 out of 80... Prisons are one of the most surefire way to eliminate unwanted persons from society, black? Lock em up! poor? Lock em up! Like to alter your level of consciousness? Lock em up! Don't like to be a wage slave and rather live under a bridge? Lock em up! This countries "justice" system has always been about going after poor people. That is why you get poor black men texecuted and Ken Lay walks around smirking. The best way to balance this out is to make available the same funds used by ken Lay to the poorest of the poor.

    The war on drugs has caused in increased number of inmates to be placed in prision. The true criminals are getting off and out early. While you have a low level drug offender who will get 15-life for being caught with a bag of drugs on him. What's wrong with this picture? Every American has a voice and they should use that voice. It's our tax dollars that are being spent for this stupid stuff and I don't see anyone listening to our voices. The system needs a look at-a serious look at. Until the American people take a stand and speak out on what they want for the system and what they will no longer continue to spend their tax dollars at and on it will continue. The Government needs to know that the American people have a say and that say should be listened to. I rather my child be able to walk the street with a non-violent drug offender walking the streets over a sexual offender or someone who has taken a human life. As a nation we are headed in the wrong direction with the war on drugs. The answer is not to lock every single person up. The issue is not being addressed by placing those caught in prision for life. America WAKE UP!!! THIS IS YOUR LIFE TOO.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#15)
    by wishful on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 08:48:48 AM EST
    If every person who ever indulged or carried, even once, an illegal drug (including underage alcohol ingestion) were actually to be somehow found out and put in prison according to current mandatory sentincing structure, the number in prison would probably be more like 137 out of every 138 citizens over the age of say 13 or so. Most don't get caught, and lots of the rest are not prosecuted. I would venture to guess that many of our government employees, all the way to the top, would be behind bars. But they are not, because the real color of justice is, as they say, green.

    First, prisons are for profit big business. Second convictions are career builders for prosecutors. Third, we vote for politicians who exploit our fears. Sounds like a Dickensian perfect storm to me. Is there anyone who is truly surprised? Second, what if we took revenge out of the picture. Rather than sentencing based on the suffering caused to victims and their loved ones, what if we meted out punishment according to intent? (An enlightenment idea which we have thrown aside in our regression towards the barbaric precursors of justice). I'll spare all you smart folks examples - it seems obvious enough to me. Third, remember that the lines between criminal and non-criminal, between the prosecuted and unprosecuted, between the accused and the excused are artificial, societally created. We slide the line one way, suddenly regular folks are criminals. The other way, other regular folks are criminals. So before you hide your kids under your skirts or deem to discuss peoples lives in hierarchical terms as violent and non-violent, worthy or unworthy, redeemable or not (which we all do a bit too tritely IMHO) THINK about assumptions and judgments you make about whether an individual deserves freedom and how long we can deprive him/her of it and look at where the line is in our society - who is on which side of it. As someone who might decide that I want to smoke pot and that it's no big deal, I am stepping over a line that labels me a criminal. If "busted" I could lose my job, my housing, my son, my education options and my freedom. But more... when I light up that joint, I am a CRIMINAL. A bad guy. A sinner. But.... voila! The line moves a half an inch and I'm the same person - but suddenly I'm an upstanding citizen whose life and freedom are valued by the state.

    How about this headline: 1 out of every 138 U.S. Residents refuse to be law-abiding. or this one: 1 out of every 138 U.S. Residents are so childish and so self-centered that they refuse to be law-abiding. or this one: 1 out of every 138 U.S. Residents have been taught that it's not their fault if they break the law so they refuse to be law-abiding. Is it so frigging difficult to not break the law? If you don't like a law then work to change it, but don't be so stupid as to refuse to obey it. See how simple life is?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:29:50 AM EST
    Fascist state.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:06:04 AM EST
    Is it so frigging difficult to not break the law?
    In a word, yes. At least for those of us who the law doesn't respect, though we hurt no one. You call it being self-centered, I call it being free. C'mon sarc, I know you enjoy being contrary, but do you honestly believe 1 in 138 belong in jail?

    "If you don't like a law then work to change it, but don't be so stupid as to refuse to obey it." So I suppose the white abolitionists who were helping runaway slaves on the undeground railroad should have turned in the "slaves" (since that was the law) and instead joined a PAC to help change the south's political/philosophical view on slavery?? Are you serious? A very wise prisoner once said that "drugs" (i.e weed, coke, heroine, etc...) were the poor man's prozac. We live in a drugged society. To put an entire class of people into JAIL and straddle them with felony records for indulging in the only drugs that THEY have access to - - well that seems rather immoral to me. You take your Ritalin, Vicoden, Percocets, Valium's, Morphine's, caffiene's, etc...but they do five dollars worth a crack. They do 1-3. You go golfing.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#21)
    by roger on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:11:42 AM EST
    I am sure that Sarc never speeds, and always wears his seatbelt

    kdog, "do you honestly believe 1 in 138 belong in jail?" Nope. And I honestly believe that if the 1 in 138 didn't choose to break the laws that put them there, that 1 in 138 wouldn't be there. How hard is that to understand? Roger, "I am sure that Sarc never speeds, and always wears his seatbelt" Well, I always wear a seatbelt and I hope whether there was a law requiring it or not, that you would too. But, I but often speed and refuse to obey other traffic laws. And get tickets. And pay the fines. And I don't blame anyone else but me. But don't you see - that's the point, we're not talking about minor traffic infractions, were' talking about going to jail. OK, for you Roger, here's the headline: 1 out of every 138 U.S. Residents have been taught that it's not their fault if they break the law and end up in jail so they refuse to abide by laws that will put them there. Happy now?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:36:47 AM EST
    Thanks sarc for admitting 1 in 138 is far too high an incarceration rate, which is the whole point. It's a tremendous waste of resources, and a disgraceful statistic for a so-called "free" country.

    kdog, Let me be clear, that 1 in 138 choose to break the laws that could put them in jail is disgraceful. That is my point. You and I've had similar converstions before. We'll never agree.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:07:35 PM EST
    Choose to break the law...choose to live free...tomato/tomatoe

    Kdog, Sarcastic must be my dad blogging anonymously. The fact is, sarcastic's argument is the dominant one in any "law and order" discussion of "freedom" it's the "we've got to draw the line somewhere" and "people need discipline to be moral... left to themselves they would turn in to fat lazy criminals and the economy would tank and we'd go to hell in a handbasket" arguments. Sarcastic, I'm speaking for your position above, if I got it wrong, please clarify. However, please take a minute to at least consider kdog's position, if I may speak for him also. Him and I feel that the law is arbitrary and seeks to often control people so they may be exploited. For example, say the county you lived in had a horrible accident atrributed to speeding and they passed a law that for every 5 mph over the speed limit you go, if your caught you spend a month in jail. 30 mph over the limit means six months in jail. You may be "together" enough to simply say "Okay.... I'll drive the speed limit and write an op-ed to the town paper", or you may say "screw them, the law's stupid and I don't give a sh*t if I get caught or not" On the other hand, you may have a lead foot and out of force of habit you accidentally catch youself going 45 in a 20. Suddenly you're the guy/gal we're talking about here. "He chose to break the law, now he'll pay" In addition, some of us feel a loyalty to the principles of our country in the sense that laws that don't mirror our (granted individual and arbitrary) perception of those principles we are not subject to. So, a law that says blacks are not to be treated the same as whites violate this country's principle of "all men are created equal" and I may choose to hide a slave. Another function of law is to create an orderly society where all can flourish. If you are given the message that you are culturally or intellectually disenfranchised - that no one gives a f*ck about you, your education, your opportunities and your family, you have no reason to "play by the rules" because the rules don't let you ever win. So a kid sitting home watching Burger king commercials while his mother sits there and cries because she doesn't have enough money to buy milk and bread says "I'm going to get mine" and take my chances because society and it's laws don't apply to me. So... a couple of questions to consider: 1. What kind of society is this where one out of every 138 people is deemed unable to participate in society i.e. dangerous to public safety? Isn't something wrong? 2. Isn't it up to (ultimately) a person and their god about what laws they choose to obey or not? Isn't it a choice? If that many people are making the choices that lead to incarceration, don't we have to look at many "criminal acts" as results of societies own actions and deliberately chosen, not prescribed ways to handle them. You guys don't even want to know where I stand on this - I won't risk my credibility except to say that Jail's been around for (I'm guessing) at least thousands of years. Before we knew anything about brains, behavior, biology or psychology. Administered at it's worst, it's just a modern version of "ostracizing" genetically unfit humans - banishing them from the tribe into the "wilderness" where they usually didn't survive alone. We simply ran out of wilderness. So, I'm with kdog, 1 in 10,000. BTW - in it's time, the guillotine was considered a modern, humane method of execution (and I guess it was... compared to say, burning at the stake or some of the Inquisition methods I read about in Poe)

    mfox, If you choose to break the law then you then must then accept the responsibility of your actions. Like I said above, if you don't like a law then work to change it, but don't be so stupid as to refuse to obey it. If I were faced with the traffic laws as you suggest, I would absolutely obey them to the nth degree all the while agitating for the laws to be changed. Guess what, I've smoke a lot of reefer in my time, but I don't any more because I don't want to go to jail or even have to worry about being hasseled for it. It's not worth it. It's just as simple as that. I didn't respond to chi_high's ludicrous post above as he suggests that slavery and drug laws are equivilent. I sure hope you aren't suggesting the same thing. Don't you see, it is just that mind-set, just that determination, just that strength of character that enables one to say, "despite my not being able to by my kid a burger - today - I am going to work hard and succeed and I will buy him a burger tomorrow, or the the next day, or the day after that, and I'm not going to become a criminal to do it. And if I'm never able to buy him the burger, well, at least I didn't choose to quit become a criminal, and my child will see that choice." that is so important?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 03:02:51 PM EST
    How many mentally ill people are in prison? The didn't 'choose' to break the law, and they won't get any therapy while inside. When they come out, you still have a mentally ill person who has no better idea on how to get better, but a much better idea of how to get away with it. Prisons are grad schools for offenders. If you treat people like animals, even if they weren't before, they will become animals. et al; at what point does the percentage of incarcerated citizens mean the LAW is wrong?

    Well, Sailor, good question. If 100% of the incarcerated citizens were convicted of, say, murder, I would still think the law regarding murder was not wrong. What would you think?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#32)
    by wishful on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 04:04:40 PM EST
    Speaking, as sarc is, of making and breaking laws, I have a problem with the drug laws even being valid criminal offenses. It seem that one of the basics of the philosophy of criminal legislation is that there is a victim. No so for possessing or taking drugs. Our brilliant legislators, in order to make its citizens (us) criminals in a drug-taking or possessing way, it had to (illegally IMHO) irrationally expand civil licensing laws to create criminal punishments. That is why the first time it was tried, there had to be an amendment to our very Constitution. It was called Prohibition or some such. Somehow, we were wise enough then to change course, but not now with the crazy and illegal criminalization of drug laws. So it is a stretch to say that just because a bunch of people in the system make tons of $$$ and have an added advantage of another powerful tool to control the lowly masses who can't afford U.S. justi$e, that we should do so. Oh, what a waste of a perfectly good democracy, its human potential, and other resources. Even though it is understandable that those what got, want more, and think that the bigger the divide between them and the dregs makes them even better somehow, it is no excuse for allowing it. Let's fix this travesty, and move on.

    Sailor, I realize I read your post a little wrong. I read it as "at what percent of incarcerated citizens" rather than "at what percent of citizens incarcerated." Sorry, I scratched my cornea yesterday and can't see very well today. Making me ornery, too! Either way though, I stand by my statement. Would you think the laws against murder would be wrong if a higher percentage of citizens did it?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 04:32:34 PM EST
    wishful...good job bringing up the victim angle. You would think every American would be against jailing people for victimless crimes. You would think.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 06:34:35 PM EST
    Nice strawman; here's another, what if 100% of inmates were jaywalkers? Now, back to the real world; If as a society, we imprison this large a segment of our population, 'the fault lies, not in the stars but in ourselves.'

    I'll bite, sarcastic. If the point of incarceration is to protect society from the harm of aberrant individuals I would humbly submit that a. murderers in a murderous society are not aberrant and therefore not harmful to the murderous society and b. that there is no victim so no harm is done. Therefore c. any legal basis for singling out murderers is unequal treatment under the law and therefore discriminatory. There. (Blowing smoke or whatever it is from the end of my Colt 45... the gun not the beer). Any takers??

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:07:17 PM EST
    mfox, LOL! Tho that might be because I have a scratch on my cornea and I thought you wrote "I'll bite the sarcastic unnamed one."

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#38)
    by krazycory on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:16:51 PM EST
    i've been to prison and while i was there i learned to be a good criminal (it took me 3 times to learn my lesson) i got sent away for 0-5 years for $30.00 worth of meth!! at the same time i was going to court a guy in my home town threw a baby againt the wall and killed her guess what he was sentenced to????? you got it 0-5 years there's NO justice in the justice system

    Talk about taking a complex issue and making it overly simple. First, their is an issue as to whether the punishment fits the crime. Politicians in an effort to look strong on law and order came up with a rigid system of minimum sentencing. Even many hard core conservative judges have found the results to be far too harsh. It is simply not enough to say "that is the law so don't do the crime unless you want to do the time." Second, we have to look at whether the punishment is achieving the goal of society. Half the prison population is in the can for drugs. Usually the lowest on the drug chain while the kingpins turn the lower rungs in for credit against their sentences by being cooperative. This results in truly dangerous criminals being release or diverted from prison because of an overcrowding problem. Third, how does the US incarceration rate compare to those of other industrialized nations with similar or lower crime rates? Punishment must be appropriate to the crime. No one wants to speak to this issue. I have been both a prosecutor and defense attorney. Lots of criminals deserve to be punished. However, many don't deserve to go to prison when they were too young to realize the gravity of what they were doing, had mental limitations, were abused as children or faced serious economic dislocation. Immagine an individual who loses his job because of a corporate take-over (or because the company went under because of the fraud of the top echelon of corporate officers.) Imagine that he has a sick child. Imagine that he can find nothing better than a minimum wage job. A real possibility if he is in his mid to late 40's. Imagine that he has lost his house, gone through his savings and what was left of his 401k (most of it went down with the company). He has no medical insurance and his state has drastically cut medicaid. Yeah, its not always easy to just go out and find a job and work your way to the top. I can easily see how he may go over the line. After all, his employers did. He may even smoke a little pot to relieve himself. Gosh, you can be a conservative or liberal president doing that.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#40)
    by john horse on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 03:34:24 AM EST
    Excellent analysis JMOHR. I would like to add that that there is also an economic aspect involved with this (some call it the prison industrial complex). Prisons provide the main or only source of jobs in many rural counties. This becomes a devil's bargain because crime has in many cases declined. Harsher drug laws ensure that these prisons remain filled.

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#41)
    by roger on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 04:49:46 AM EST
    Sarc, I'm glad that you pay your tickets. When you get too many, they will take your license. When you continue to drive, you will go to jail

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 05:56:35 AM EST
    Also, prisoners count towards the local population when it comes to govt. representation and govt. funding. Here in NY, that means the communities of Attica and Sing Sing get to count all the prisoners from NYC as residents. More state money for schools, roads, etc. There is definitely a monetary gain for these communities to keep the prisons full.

    Wow it's a long way from my first post. I agree that it is insane for people who commit non-violent crimes like smoking some pot to be put away for 15 years or more - now stealing the company profits and putting people out of a job ...put them away and take everything they own, sell it, and split it between the workers who lost their jobs. Last night on Lou Dobbs it was said that 90,000+ people are in our prisons who don't even belong in our country ! Why are they still here? Because if we let them out and take them back to their own country they come back anyway? Because leaders like Fox of Mexico encourage the bad elements of their society to cross the border? Not enough to steal in Mexico so they come here? They would rather rape and murder an American female? It's funny that I'm part of this because on my new blog I am trying to get people sent away for life. KiddSafe Blog

    "Half the prison population is in the can for drugs." Sorry to burst all your bubbles, but there seems to be some big misunderstanding/misinformation here. while it is true that half of those in federal prison are in for drugs, 20% are in for drugs in state prisons. So, let's see, Fed prison pop ~= 160,000, state prison pop ~= 1,200,000. Therefore, overall prison population of drug offenders is (0.5 x 160,000) + 0.2 x (1,200,000)/1,360,000 = 23.5% A big percentage, to be sure, but not the 50% number that some seem to find to abominable. mfox, Sure, I'll "take." You must have gotten some smoke from your .45 in your eyes. Sure it wasn't the "30 odd 6" or some similar nonsense you spoke so fondly of in another thread? Anyway, "if the point of incarceration is to protect society from the harm of aberrant individuals." Uh, that's not the point of incarceration, ergo the rest of what you wrote is useless. Sailor has nothing. Roger, Again, obeying the law is our choice. You can be sure that I won't choose to disobey traffic laws to the point that I will be in any danger at all of going to jail. See, I'm not stupid like those who do choose to break laws that could put them in jail. How about you?

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#45)
    by roger on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    Sarc, You sound like many of the people that I see in jail cells every day

    Re: Report: 1 of Every 138 U.S. Residents in Jail (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 11:27:50 AM EST
    Talk about "kick the dog" syndrome. No blame at all to rest on over-zealous legislators and prosecutors sarc?

    Roger, I don't doubt you're right, I wouldn't know how convicted criminals sound. But I do know I sound like many of the people found - and determined to stay - outside of jail cells. Perhaps if more of your convicts walked the talk they wouldn't be in there? kdog, The criminal is the "dog?!" Yowza. If someone commits a crime that is punishable by law by incarceration, how can you blame prosecutors for their "zealousness" if the criminal gets incarcerated? Also, since many/most incarcerated criminals had the charges pressed on them by their victims, shouldn't you be blaming the criminal's victims? Why do you blame legislators? They serve at the pleasure of you and the rest of us, and they generally try to pass the laws that their consituents want so they'll be re-elected. So, shouldn't you be blaming yourself? And the rest of the voting public?

    Sailor, once again I find I must appologize to you. I missed your 7:34pm comment and only saw your silly 8:07pm comment... Anyway, regarding jaywalkers, we're talking about actual incarcerated criminals, you know, like the murderers I asked you about in response to your lament, not some made-up world of criminal jaywalkers. Let's try to keep it real.