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'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors

Today is 'Justice Sunday.' Read Frank Rich in Sunday's New York Times, A High-Tech Lynching in Prime Time:

It may not boast a plume of smoke emerging from above the Sistine Chapel, but it will feature its share of smoke and mirrors as well as traditions that, while not dating back a couple of millenniums, do at least recall the 1920's immortalized in "Elmer Gantry." These traditions have less to do with the earnest practice of religion by an actual church, as we witnessed from Rome, than with the exploitation of religion by political operatives and other cynics with worldly ends.

The fraudulence of "Justice Sunday" begins but does not end with its sham claims to solidarity with the civil rights movement of that era. "...In truth, Bush judicial nominees have been approved in exactly the same numbers as were Clinton second-term nominees. Of the 13 federal appeals courts, 10 already have a majority of Republican appointees. So does the Supreme Court. It's a lie to argue, as Tom DeLay did last week, that such a judiciary is the "left's last legislative body," and that Justice Anthony Kennedy, a Reagan appointee, is the poster child for "outrageous" judicial overreach. Our courts are as highly populated by Republicans as the other two branches of government.

'Justice Sunday' is a lie.

Only weeks ago [the Justice Sunday Mob] was desperately seeking activist judges who might intervene in the Terri Schiavo case as boldly as Scalia & Co. had in Bush v. Gore. The real "Justice Sunday" agenda lies elsewhere. As Bill Maher summed it up for Jay Leno on the "Tonight" show last week: " 'Activist judges' is a code word for gay." The judges being verbally tarred and feathered are those who have decriminalized gay sex (in a Supreme Court decision written by Justice Kennedy) as they once did abortion and who countenance marriage rights for same-sex couples.

The main evil-doers for Justice Sunday are:

Tony Perkins:

Tonight's megachurch setting and pseudoreligious accouterments notwithstanding, the actual organizer of "Justice Sunday" isn't a clergyman at all but a former state legislator and candidate for insurance commissioner in Louisiana, Tony Perkins. He now runs the Family Research Council, a Washington propaganda machine devoted to debunking "myths" like "People are born gay" and "Homosexuals are no more likely to molest children than heterosexuals are." It will give you an idea of the level of Mr. Perkins's hysteria that, as reported by The American Prospect, he told a gathering in Washington this month that the judiciary poses "a greater threat to representative government" than "terrorist groups."

James Dobson:

Mr. Perkins's fellow producer tonight is James Dobson, the child psychologist who created Focus on the Family, the Colorado Springs media behemoth most famous of late for condemning SpongeBob SquarePants for joining other cartoon characters in a gay-friendly public-service "We Are Family" video for children. Dr. Dobson sees same-sex marriage as the path to "marriage between a man and his donkey" and, in yet another perversion of civil rights history, has likened the robed justices of the Supreme Court to the robed thugs of the Ku Klux Klan. He has promised "a battle of enormous proportions from sea to shining sea" if he doesn't get the judges he wants.

And Senator Bill Frist.

this guy signed his pact with the devil even before he decided to grandstand in the Schiavo case by besmirching the diagnoses of neurologists who, unlike him, had actually examined the patient.

It was three months earlier, on the Dec. 5, 2004, edition of ABC News's "This Week With George Stephanopoulos," that Dr. Frist enlisted in the Perkins-Dobson cavalry. That week Bush administration abstinence-only sex education programs had been caught spreading bogus information, including the canard that tears and sweat can transmit H.I.V. and AIDS - a fiction that does nothing to further public health but is very effective at provoking the demonization of gay men and any other high-risk group for the disease. Asked if he believed this junk science was true, the Princeton-and-Harvard-educated Dr. Frist said, "I don't know." After Mr. Stephanopoulos pressed him three more times, this fine doctor theorized that it "would be very hard" for tears and sweat to spread AIDS (still a sleazy answer, since there have been no such cases).

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  • Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:06:35 AM EST
    Oh you can say it one million times and most people still think that the roman! church is about real religion the "rome rule"(with the little R) is just that, the ruling of big money, and not for the poor. Hey Pope how is mother mary doing nowadays?...will i go right to hell for asking that?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:51:40 AM EST
    Who is surprised by this? As a Catholic, Blaghdaddy grew up looking around at the oppulence and wealth of the Catholic Church, with all of its bells, whistles and multiple offering plate passes...he wondered, as a young boy, "Wouldn't this money be better suited to feed the poor?" Guess not, Blaghdaddy learned, for who has time to feed the poor when there are golden domes to erect, purple robes to don and silver chalices to buy from which to sip wine? Give me a break, the Church and all other sects (anyone watched Benny Hinn lately?)are more interested in filling their pockets than in doing anything remotely Godly.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:58:50 AM EST
    et al - Like it or not, these people have a right to organize, assemble and protest. It is, as the Left has pointed out for years, a most patroitic thing to do. So please, as you have advised the Right, celebrate the American way by respecting what these people are doing.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:09:55 AM EST
    Uh, who's saying they "don't have a right" to do what they're doing? You right-wingers are the one terrified of people doing or saying things with which you yourselves disagree...Bush's "Forums," and burning of Dixie Chicks CD's are a couple of things that spring to mind... Remember the definition of Puritanism: The nagging fear that somewhere, someone is having fun. And Blaghdaddy's own definition of a Conservatives: Those who, having what is theirs and having said and done everything they want, seek to deny all others the same.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:56:22 AM EST
    Nice job. More on this here at Jesus H. Bush Reunion Tour

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:13:42 AM EST
    Amazing, While it reflects how the general folks who have posted here feel (and therefore you can feel those knees jerking) - I hope you do not think this demagogery is an analysis upon which you can understand who you are fighting, and plan strategy.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:21:02 AM EST
    Blagdaddy - PPJ is well known as a social liberal, so PPJ finds Blagdaddy's thoughts about conservatives of academic interest only. PPJ does agree with Blagdaddy that entertainers have the right to say what they want. PPJ also notes that those who find the entertainers comments offensive, have the right to say so, and quit giving the entertainers money. As for supporting the right of those protesting what they see as an out of control judicary, PPJ must refer Blagdaddy to Reich's article, "A High-Tech Lynching in Prime Time." PPJ suggests that the title has all Blagdaddy needs to know about the author's support for freedom of speech. PPJ would tell Blagdaddy that there is a stench of hypocrisy in the air. John Deeth writes - "And statements like Tom DeLay's "judges need to be intimidated" smolder like a burning cross." John, Delay has made many critical comments about the judical branch. You may disagree with him, I may disagree with him. But, he has freedom of speech, and he has the right to say that. I ask you a question. Do you support Ward Churchill's right to make outrageous statements? I do. I also believe Churchill should accept the results if his employers decide to fire him. As far as I am concerned, Delay is no different.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:07:35 AM EST
    Lost in all the debate is one very interesting question... What does Jesus really think of the people running the Republican Party?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:20:29 AM EST
    To PPJ, Blaghdaddy has never said that ANYONE shouldn't be allowed to speak...hello, how can he say that when he's the biggest mouth on the block? What Blaghdaddy was saying is that (pay attention) we only hear about respect for speech and the 1st Amendment when conservative speech is being criticised. Or did Ari Fleicher, speaking for the President, NOT say that "Americans must be careful what they say..."? Blaghdaddy seems to remember that... As well as the people who are evicted-arrested-charged for having the gall to think they have a right to attend one of the president's forums and DISAGREE with him... If you're so bloody liberal, Puckered-Potty-and-Jam, why are you harassing other liberals on a liberal site about "respecting" anything? Kind of like Cheney telling people to go Fornicate with themselves because he doesn't like what they say? That's a "frank exchange?" Come to Blaghdaddy's site and try to find ANYWHERE he advocates silencing opposing opinion- you twit. And yes, Blaghdaddy loves to call names...he learned how to do it at the White House prayer meetings...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:31:03 AM EST
    Coming to your television April 24th. They fought to bring you Jim Crow and "separate but equal." Now, they're fighting the filibuster for Jesus. It's "Justice Sunday". A Solid South/Family Research Council production.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:32:01 AM EST
    Why should people have to choose between public service and religious faith? This is the dilemma the left creates with their partisan filibustering. This is what Justice Sunday is addressing, and sorry, TL and the Dogmatics, but it is real. The left is the group trying to generate smoke and mirrors to hide this fact.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#12)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:44:45 AM EST
    Ward Churchill is not a lawmaker. Did Ratzinger "obstruct" child abuse investigations? link

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:46:59 AM EST
    I find it sad that an article is posted about the judicial nominees and today's events, run by Evangelicals, but people still insist on Catholic baiting. MSNBC has an interesting expose on the new Pope, here . While I know most people here are not people of faith, ask yourself this, why must the Church conform to Western Standards? Indeed, many criticize the Bush administration for interfering in the Middle East and attempting to westernize them. No one scolds the people of the Jewish faith for celebrating in Hebrew, yet the traditions of the Catholic Church are always attacked, are always found to be "outmoded". Indeed we ought to suggest that any Muslim women who chooses to wear the traditional garb is outdated, and we ought to indoctrinate her to make sure begins to wear western clothing. This weekend, Jews around the world celebrate the Passover, ought we tell them that the seder must use only the vernacular, that the language they have gripped so tightly for millenia must be abandoned? I am not clergy, and will never find that role in my life, however the community of Catholicism is ever expansive. There is a place for all who believe. [section deleted, this is overly long] Faith is a vastly personal experience, for those who find it within the Church, that is their choice, and their own calling. Americans have long believed that they could mold anything to fit their individual needs, that is why so many Americans find fault with the Church. I leave the rest up to you, but before you respond, and I anticipate many responses, sit and meditate on it for a moment... contemplation is something that has been lost in this 24 hour world.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:58:40 AM EST
    It won't be easy to make myself heard of the blatting sound of Blag's rhetorical bloviations, but here goes: The constitution allows a simple senate majority for judicial appointments. By filibustering and not allowing an up-or-down vote, the left is subverting the constitution. The left is viciously pursueing their secular anti-religious agenda at the expense of the free exercise clause of the 1st amendment. I invite readers to peruse Blag's preceding post again, with a new sensitivity to the vicious, intolerant, closed-minded hatred of free thought contained therin.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 09:59:41 AM EST
    That's "heard ABOVE the blatting..."

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:04:17 AM EST
    Separation of church and state... Who thought up that idea and why? It's not about free speech. It's about separation of church and state. Most social liberals get this.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:14:18 AM EST
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" 'Separation of church and state" refers to the first clause here. The right of people to express their religious beliefs, and, yes, inform their political activities by them, is evident in the second clause here. All honest, non-brainwashed people get this. [Doctor Ace, you are over limit. Feel free to return another day.]

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:15:14 AM EST
    Blagdaddy writes - "If you're so bloody liberal, Puckered-Potty-and-Jam, why are you harassing other liberals on a liberal site about "respecting" anything?" Ah, Blagdaddy resorts to the time honored Leftist tactic of making snarky remarks. PPJ must say that PPJ is not surprised. PPJ would also tell Blagdaddy that the name is TalkLeft, not TalkLiberal. Blagdaddy appears to not understand that PPJ can be liberal, and still support the war, and disagree with people on the Left on some issues. And if Blagdaddy is such a true believer in free speech, why is Blagdaddy complaining about PPJ's? As to the Constitution, it says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" PPJ notes that this says nothing about elected officals professing religious faith or belief. And PPJ notes that he doesn't remember the law referred to by Blagdaddy having any religious content, but merely directing the federal judge involved to have a complete and new review of all the facts. A law, BTW that was passed with the unanimous consent of the Senate. Said Senate having 45 Democrats, some of which are members in good standing of the Left. Perhaps Blagdaddy will now want to re-consider Blagdaddy's intemperate and inaccurate comments. As to Blagdaddy liking to call people names, PPJ notes that most children like to do so. Especially from the safety of their playpen. JL - What does Churchill not being a lawmaker have to do with anything? Do you believe that elected officals lose their constitutional rights? Ernesto - Perhaps you can ask him and get back to us.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:19:55 AM EST
    Q.E.D., Blag.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:27:58 AM EST
    My, my, we're awfully sensitive when the names are coming and not going, aren't we? Give Blaghdaddy a little time, if you insist on this tack, and he'll furnish you and the world with loads and loads of right-wing name-calling and demagoguery...you really wanna go there, Potty-Pants-and-Judas? If Blaghdaddy hears John Kerry being labelled a traitor, Bill Clinton "pond-scum," (compliments of Anne Coulter) George Soros Every-name under-the-sun, Blaghdaddy believes he'll be forgiven for joining in the fun...Blaghdaddy lets facts talk for him, so he can throw all the names he wants? And Blaghdaddy would never complain about you, Prancin'-Poop-Journalist... Blaghdaddy feels that manure thrives in the dark until you drag it into the sun...thanks for coming out!!! Blaghdaddy's bored of this guy and bids the forum "Adios" as he goes in search of intelligent conservatives to debate...oxy-moron, yes, but you gotta try...Over and Out!!!

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:38:21 AM EST
    Sorry, one last rejoinder to PPJ's questin on Schiavo....the exact wording of the law (Blaghdaddy knows, he blogged about this very subject) was as follows: "In such a suit, the District Court shall determine de novo any claim of a violation of any right of Theresa Marie Schiavo within the scope of this Act..." All you people who believe the 'cons on how the federal courts ignored an order to re-hear the case "de novo" are being fooled again! The act made the federal courts consider "de novo" ANY CLAIM, not the entire case...and since guardianship law is a state matter, it would take five minutes to look at the claim, pronounce it a state matter and boomerang it back to Congress...Congress passing a law making guardianship a federal matter don't make it so!!! Congress' problem is that the law was to "re-examine" the case, not render a different decision...that's what got their goats. No one told the courts to re-hear the case, just any CLAIM...big difference, no? So PPJ, you're out of luck again...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:52:07 AM EST
    Blaghdaddy - All things aside for a few minutes. Our Hostess and the owner of this blog has always requested that vulgar and obscene language not be used because it is viewed by many firms that have filters, and such language result in the blog being "locked out" which results in a real problem for her. I am not speaking for her, but I would guess that she would request the above from all of us.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 10:59:03 AM EST
    That's fair enough...Blaghdaddy isn't offended by foul language, so he sometimes forgets that others are...no harm meant and Blaghdaddy offers his apologies. By the way PPJ, Blaghdaddy doesn't discuss things with people whom he doesn't think have either a valid argument or one that needs correction- the difference between the two can be subjective...but Blaghdaddy likes to inject a little humor into his polemics- talking politics seriously all the time can get boring fast, no? So PPJ, the names were all tongue-in-cheek references to the PPJ sounding so much like our childhood, PP&J, he doesn't know you and so could never attack you personally, as many conservatives love to attack differing views with personal invective... So let's start afresh, and if we ever bang into one another online, Blaghdaddy promises to be civil...he'll leave the salty language on his own blog-site...deal?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:11:01 AM EST
    Are these jurists worth the damage to both politics and religion? Can anyone direct me to an objective review of them. I know Priscilla Owen was rebuked by Gonzales while serving on the same court. Janis Brown thinks we are a socialist country and Brett Kavanaugh has never tried a case. What about Meyers, Haynes and others?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:11:07 AM EST
    Blaghdaddy, PPJ's comment was that the subject law did not have a religious content as you posited in your 10:39AM comment. Blaghdaddy's attempt to wiggle away from that point actually proves it. As to what the law did or did not direct, a reasonable person had to understand what the meaning and intent of Congress was, and "any claim" to a reasonable person certainly covers all the various appeals made by the family, and CLAIMS made by various people in affidavits. As PPJ has not heard the Judge's in thought process, PPJ can only think that if Blagdaddy is correct, then the Judge parsed himself into a very unpopular decision. PPJ also notes that Blaghdaddy's inane comment about Kerry, etc., is without basis in fact, and represets nothing but a comment made without knowledge, an action Blaghdaddy has a great talent for.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:15:23 AM EST
    Blagdaddy - Our comments passed each other in hyperspace. I agree. One point. If you have followed this blog for a while, you know that I am not a conservative, but a true social liberal. I find the left and right to be on opposite sides of the same coin.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:20:27 AM EST
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Are you saying that the right NEVER CALLED Kerry a traitor? What's this then? As for "intent" PPJ still doesn't get that the Congressional Law was Unconstitutional in that it tried to over-ride a STATE matter and make it a Federal one, the exact abuse of power the founders wanted to AVOID by making the JUDICIARY a third and SEPARATE power. Congress cannot order the Judiciary around, whatever PPJ seems to think. PPF also forgets that a judge is duty-bound to strike down an unconstitutional law, whoever wrote it, and Blaghdaddy believes that the U.S. Supreme Court and MOST OF AMERICA found the same thing....Your serve.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:26:20 AM EST
    Ooops, your message and Blaghdaddy's crossed again! PPJ, Blaghdaddy never meant to insult you by calling you a conservative (that should get Blaghdaddy in trouble), but your argument sounded very from-the-right. Blaghdaddy himself is more libertarian, believing that unless you do something to harm another, you should be left alone to sodomise, intoxicate, ovulate without fear of pregancy and a host of other liberal things that conservatives want to restrict. The funny thing is, Blaghdaddy is very conservative fiscally and thinks the entire "Conservative" crew in Washington should be hung, drawn and quartered for calling themselves that...Deficits are BAD, whoever's running the country, Pork-Barrelling is BAD, lining one's pockets with Lobby money is BAD...follow Blaghdaddy's point?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:54:55 AM EST
    So please, as you have advised the Right, celebrate the American way by respecting what these people are doing. Ahhhh. The "crybaby conservatives" are out in force. Social liberal = "Social liberalism is either a synonym for new liberalism or a label used by progressive liberal parties in order to differentiate themselves from the more conservative liberal parties, especially when there are two or more liberal parties in a country." "this term has two conflicting meanings. The more widely-used definition refers to a person who is liberal on social issues such as civil rights, civil liberties, and immigration. Another definition, which is more academic, refers to a liberal who is an economic leftist, and divides liberals into social liberals (who are simply called "liberals" in the first definition) and libertarians." There is a strong "social liberal" party in Crotia.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:55:43 AM EST
    Blaghaddy - PPJ was commenting about PPJ, since it was PPJ's understanding that you then considered PPJ a conservative right winger. PPJ would suspect that traitor would be one of the milder things Kerry was called. As to whether the law was unconstitutional... PPJ's expertise in such matters is less than limited. However, the judge did not rule that it was unconstututional, so it appears that Blagdaddy's expertise is on the same level as PPJ's. PPJ sees that you did not include the right to pollute, sell unsafe medicene, and let Blaghdaddy's neighbor's us their property as they see fit in your list of libertarian freedoms.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 11:58:15 AM EST
    It's not about free speech. It's about separation of church and state. Most social liberals get this.
    Actually, I do not think social liberals do get this. This current "culture war" began (or broke wide open) when christians felt backed into a corner when some liberal belief, held by their faith, began to enter our schools and culture as fact, rather than opinion or theory. Those beliefs run counter to mine - yet when I ask for equal time for my opinions and theory, held by my faith, to stand alongside the others - I am attempting to interrupt the separation of church and state. Jefferson's Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, the basis of the Constitution's provision:
    that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion, and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency, is a dangerous fallacy, which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment, and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own (all emphasis mine)
    Jefferson presents that the courts are NOT THE PLACE to fight out this battle on opinions and beliefs. As one of those two terrible Bush judges said (the one that won 70% of the vote in CA):
    when “fundamentally moral and philosophical issues are involved and the questions are fairly debatable (my emphasis), the judgment call belongs to the Legislature - Janice Rogers Brown
    We would argue the social liberals of being the primary violators of this basic tenet of our democracy - and you are seeing a backlash now. We think you absolutely do not practice the separation of church and state in Jefferson's sense; or religious freedom. Lets put this event tonight in perspective - the first place I heard about was at TalkLeft. Still wasn't mentioned at my "fundamentalist" Bible church today. Now this event last weekend was mentioned (free light rather than heat for your understanding of us crazys): 30000 people filled Anahiem Stadium for the 25th anniversary of the founding of a church in Anahiem (started with 250 members). Notice the issues they are focusing on. I will not watch "the show" tonight because I expect it will also not cast much light, and offer much heat, on this important topic - I understand the faith, and the issue. I guess that expresses how important I think "Justice Sunday" is. Why do you think it is so important?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:09:53 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy recalls that the federal courts refused to hear the appeal, so no one knows if it was because the law was unconstitutional...a majority of surveyed Americans (even majority among evangelicals) hold that it WAS unconstitutional. So Blaghdaddy concedes the law point (Blaghdaddy is no legal scholar either, and will always admit any error), but maintains that MOST of America found Congress to be acting unconstitutionally. As for fleetdude's blather about "faith", it's called that exactly because there IS NO proof, or else you'd call it "knowledge," would you not? If you are going to call dinosaur fossils and carbon-dating "faith," you'd better release all those rapists and murderers whose convictions stem from no more than "faith" that their DNA matched them to the crimescene. But of course, conservatives accept "facts" that conform to their worldview, and reject any science that threatens their view. How else do half of Americans believe that Bush found WMD's in Iraq? Faith, buddy, faith...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:15:23 PM EST
    Oh Blah, Didnt I stress that opinions and theories were held on both sides by faith - because the are unproven; but believed anyway

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:37:54 PM EST
    I enjoyed the first ten or twenty iterations of the mud-wrestling here, but enough is enough. At risk of getting back to the point, this Justice Sunday nonsense is, first, about the claim of a small, radical slice of evangelical extremists that they own the words "Christian," "religious," and "faith." I would venture to guess than very nearly all of the 200 or so Bush judicial nominees who went through without controversy are religious people, and that the overwhelming majority of them profess Christianity. In fact, an avowed atheist essentially cannot be nominated or confirmed, despite the mandate of Article VI of our Constitution which states that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." It is a lie and an insult to those judges for Frist and his ilk to assert, by plain implication, that those judges are not Christians and are not "people of faith." The ten nominees who have been blocked were singled out because some of their previously-asserted beliefs, some of which they appear to hold on religious grounds (as a matter of faith), and thus to be unwilling or unable to put aside, are fundamentally incompatible with some of the deepest moral values engrained in federal law -- particularly the equality of women and governmental regulation to ensure a clean environment. A Quaker pacifist, no matter how sincere and no matter how within his or her rights to hold those views, is not qualified to serve as Secretary of the Army, and it is not religious discrimination for a senator to refuse to vote to confirm such a person, if nominated.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 12:41:01 PM EST
    Oh, couldnt find link for this earlier but this is statement some large part of those 30000 people pledged out loud together. More light and less heat.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 01:10:55 PM EST
    The first thing Blaghdaddy noticed in this "pact" was the proliferation of "I"s, "Me"s and "My"s...perhaps if these people thought as much of others as they do themselves, they wouldn't be so quick to seek to impose their morals on others...how'd they like it if they were forced to have abortions and participate in homosexual liasons? No? Then leave those with whom you disagree alone to live their lives as well...or is that too hard for you good Christian people? Also, if Blaghdaddy got 30,000 rednecks from the south to participate in a cross-burning at Shea Stadium one night, would that be compelling as well? Gross displays of faith are exactly that- gross. Leave your faith at home where it belongs and stop dragging it around like an orphaned child...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#42)
    by chupetin on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:14:24 PM EST
    PPJ, Blaghdaddy never meant to insult you by calling you a conservative (that should get Blaghdaddy in trouble), but your argument sounded very from-the-right. For Jim to claim he is anything but a conservative right-winger is pure BS. His posts proclaim what his politics are louder than any declaration to the contrary. Your first impresion was correct. Also, I liked the third person style of writing. It was original for a while there. Maybe I should start copying Tex's style since I like it for it's originality also.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:18:34 PM EST
    Ah Blah You miss the point - but thats ok

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:21:05 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy must confess that his obnoxious habit of referring to himself in the third person goes back to the hilarious "Seinfeld" episode that used to crack him up ("don't-touch-Jimmy.") He tried it out one day while blogging and it felt so natural that he can't stop! Plus, Blaghdaddy writes as the alter-ego of a much saner man, so the third person helps Blaghdaddy put on his game face.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:25:23 PM EST
    No, it's not o.k., fleet. Blaghdaddy doesn't want to be right, Blaghdaddy lives for the open discussions these forums offer. If you feel that conservative Christians somehow have the right to impose their narrow definitions of right and wrong upon others- when half of them kick those same principles to the curb when no one's looking, Blaghdaddy would love to hear your reasoning behind it...lay it on him!

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#46)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:27:04 PM EST
    glanton finds Blaghdaddy's style of blogging in the third person delightful, and encourages him to continue said style!

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:37:37 PM EST
    Gee Blah, I would love too - but the point is that in the text of the article and the declaration itself was NO mention of any of those things you mention. The point you missed is that this huge and nationally influential church - a week before the show tonight - did not mention judges, or abortion, or creation, or homosexuals, or their neighbors personal habits. I am trying to shed some light (instead of the heat of christian and anti-christian demagogary). This isnt 30000 people collected from all over - its 30000 members and affiliates from ONE INDEPENDENT CHURCH. It is meant simply as information to insert into your mental file on "fundamentalist christians"

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:39:05 PM EST
    Oh blah, They are saying exactly that they are committing themselves to not kicking those principles to the curb when no one is looking. Powerful stuff

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:48:52 PM EST
    Hey Fleet, if that's what they're saying and that's what they are going to do, hell, Blaghdaddy cheers them on! Blaghdaddy's point is that he's very suspicious of people who have to hang out in large, homogeneous groups to feel safe, and that alot of the rhetoric emanating from "Christian" rallies sounds very chilling to people who don't espouse those same views. Not many people take kindly to being told they "hate freedom" or "share a culture of death" or "hate democracy" because they try to practice a little of it...if that makes liberals intolerant, Blaghdaddy is guilty as charged. Blaghdaddy has no problem with religion, but he hates its imposition...it seems you may have taken exception to something that Blaghdaddy may have unitentionally implied...so no, people who gather in stadiums aren't evil, as long as they only serve that Kool-Aid to themselves and leave the rest of us out of it. Blaghdaddy supports the right to believe, not the right to believe oneself above others.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 02:53:45 PM EST
    Well Blah We may found some common ground.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:00:44 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy's happy. If you look past Blaghdaddy's bluster and name-slinging, you will see that he is very consistent in his views, which are that, unless you're harming someone, you should be left alone. Now, there is great room for debate over abortion. Blaghdaddy himself isn't a fan of it, he's seen too many lives ruined by the decision, but he can't justify making a woman carry to term with her body something he could never do or fathom. Other than that (going to school without being made to say "God", gay marriage, smokin' some pot- hey, how many people die from alcohol abuse and wipe out lives behind the wheel each year, how is marijuana so evil?), Blaghdaddy feels that if you're going to interfere with others, you'd better have a good reason for it.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:07:52 PM EST
    Nobody has ever legislated morality successfully - its a winning "hearts and minds" kind of thing. There are some dividing lines in what you say - things in your list that affect more than the user; things that do not; and things where it depends on how used. Back to the point of the thread - where does the battle of ideas and morals occur? The courts or the legislature? I vote for the legislature.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:23:28 PM EST
    See Fleetguy, we have a government based on three branches of govt. The development of public policy is dependent on all three to a certain extent. The current group in power is dedicated to a battle of ideas and morals for the purpose of furthering a public policy agenda that has little or nothing to do with the battle of ideas and morals. Examples? Let's make a cause celebre of a brain injured person in the name of the culture of life at the same time we cut funding to the public health care system that actually takes care of this population. Another? Let's dress up in flight uniform and salute the troops as we cut veteran benefits.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:49:20 PM EST
    "Blaghdaddy...referring to himself in the third person goes back to...Seinfeld"..." Would that Blag might return to his couch, there to view yet another evening of commercial entertainment products; there to leave the world of ideas to his betters...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:50:18 PM EST
    Don't forget "let's scream about activist judges and become activist leglislators!" People, you cannot win an argument with someone who denies facts when they become uncomfortable...Didn't find WMD's? No problem- let's redefine "WMD" to fit the charge and say, "See? Had 'em all the time." "Let's campaign on 'Morals and Values'with a V.P. who uses the 'F-word' in 'frank discussions' with his peers, oh- and let's bring pork-barrelling and patronage to a new low in Washington while we do that?"

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    You still haven't answered Blaghdaddy's question about how it's unconstitional to block 10 out of 200 nominees by filibustering, but it's somehow par for the course if dozens of another President's "UP and DOWN" nominees are killed off in Committee, thereby preventing an "UP and DOWN" vote on that President's nominees? Ten versus Dozens, and you have the nerve to suggest Blaghdaddy return to the couch? Doc, you ain't half smart enough to challenge Blaghdaddy...

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 03:59:27 PM EST
    Conscious, Two issues: 1) the process; and 2) those who use it. Two different issues - you should separate them. You will have the process long after these people are gone. The judiciary was never charged with developing public policy - Jefferson's ongoing comments about a future oligarchy after Marbury v Madison until his death are interesting in this regard. The quote above makes it clear he thought the courts should stay out of the business of ideas and principle. I think social liberals using the courts to do what they couldn't legislate has risen up to haunt them. It has also made them lazy - why build political bases; interact with the masses; explain, organize, etc; when you can accomplish your ends through social legislation in the courts. (You know you have socially legislated in the courts - deny that and future discussion is of limited use). You cannot stop people from filing suit - but liberals have not done any serious base building to support and legislate those gains. They do, however, complain about the right for building and using their base. Notice in the 25th anniversary link above who spoke to those 30000 people who were not gathered about anything to do with the right wing christian agenda - President Bush. Face it, the Republicans have outpoliticed you for a few years now - and frankly with your focus on the "Christian Right" and the "Conservative Agenda" I do not see that ending soon.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:03:49 PM EST
    American Republicans- The New Nazi Party? Those dudes were pretty organized and on point as well, wouldn't you say? Since when has "the other side is lazy" been a valid excuse to sodomize the public? Are you kidding Blaghdaddy? So it goes from "we're right" to "we want it more"? All Blaghdaddy can say is, "Too bad Lincoln didn't have nukes."

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:13:28 PM EST
    "(You know you have socially legislated in the courts - deny that and future discussion is of limited use)." JCH, I declaring laws unconstitutional is hardly legislating. That's what happened, for instance, with _Roe v Wade_. Yes we have a legislative process for lawmaking but if the legislature today passed a law declaring you, yourself, illegal and sentenced you to death, then that law would get overturned, thank goodness!, because it would be obstructing your ability to live freely and in pursuit of happiness. Still, I agree with you wholeheartedly that we liberals have put too WAY too much trust into the Courts to protect our basic liberties; we have indeed gotten lazy in the process, and need to work a helluva lot harder on nominating and working for quality candidates.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:34:52 PM EST
    Glanton, Roe: I do not want it overturned actually but extending the right of privacy to a mother in deciding to end the life of her child is exactly what I am talking about. No where did that REALLY exist in the Constitution - and this country has suffered for 32 years over this decision. And I am only talking politically. That moral/philosophical point should have been handled by political debate and legislation - not judicially. It has allowed the social conservatives, as the percentages of Americans opposed to abortion has risen to 55%, to define and control the battle; and the Republicans to wield that base. this is despite the fact, as conscious points out, there are more pressing issues in front of us; issues christians are concerned about deeply. See, this debate ended up there too. Roe was arguably the worst political defeat social liberals have ever experienced in this country.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:44:55 PM EST
    Glanton, I believe if John Kerry had not opposed the ban on intact D&X (partial birth) abortions - a procedure the AMA opposed; as well as a huge number of voters - he would be President today. Can you argue?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#62)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:47:00 PM EST
    JCH: It's annoying and does indeed bypass other very pressing issues, such as the cavalier spilling of human blood overseas, and such as the concrete jungle health care system we have in place; but at the same time I think it makes sense that so many of these debates come back to _Roe_, because let's be honest, _Roe_ drives much of what is happening in our Federal Government right now. Your 55% number I don't trust any further than I could throw John Madden. Poll questions get phrased in all kinds of crazy ways, they come up with crazy terms like "Partial Birth Abortion" to mask their true agenda--the bottom line is, were we forced to go back to the conditions of 1972 on this issue, it would hardly be met with popular approval. Today's young women, on this issue, in my humble opinion as a Neanderthalic Male, are just SPOILED: they cannot conceive of a world without that right: take it away from them and watch what happens. The right to privacy is what's at stake, and if it doesn't extend to one's body I don't know what it's there for at all. Except maybe to hold meetings with Energy BigWigs during the runup to an invasion of a nation swimming in oil.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:53:30 PM EST
    "Doc, you ain't half smart enough to challenge Blaghdaddy..." Blag is already challenged and beaten; all can read of his crushing defeat today in the posts between 10:58 and 11:19 am.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 04:57:39 PM EST
    Glanton, For the first time, a majority of women answering a poll from a pro-choice organization were opposed to abortion. Actually, younger voters are running more conservative on this issue. Pro-life folk are winning the battle for hearts and minds. But all that is not the point - this social law from the Supreme Court is determining the debate and electing Republicans. This would not be the case if this battle had been fought out politically - politcal bases built; arguments made; people convinced; etc This is what the right is doing, and the left is not - and that is why you are losing elections.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:01:50 PM EST
    Glanton, The right to privacy was incorrect because there was another body involved; which too many people are not convinced is pre-human; and therefore had that right to life you mentioned for me earlier. Do not argue with me, argue with the Country. Obviously, the left's frequent statement that this is a right hasn't convinced enough people.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#66)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:13:07 PM EST
    JCH: Once again I think there's a lot of common ground between us, here. I would like nothing more, in terms of politics, than for an overt, clear, and hinest debate to emerge over _Roe_. No hiding behind red herring terms, no slogans, just a debate about whether this ought be overturned. Democrats who care about the right to choose need to bring this into the public square: Kerry, as you point out, didn't knock it out of the park--though I must point out that if you go to the thread about "Moderate Republicans," you'll see one example of why I feel Bush was even dodgier and scummier than Kerry, in staking out a position. I have every trust that when you offer American citizens the option to go back to 1972, the backalley deaths, the butcher-doctors, the broken lives--people won't go for it. Again, the polls are not trustworthy, here, it's too loaded, too manipulatable of a question. If they take away the right outright, they'll pay for it. Just like they're paying for the Shiavo circus now: in sum, people do not take well to being personally threatened and/or constricted by their government, when it comes to their bodies, their medical or sexual decisions, etc.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    Glanton, The ugly thing is I do not believe we can go back. It will be solved someday by a constitutional amendment; and my belief is that will be anti-abortion - someday. One thing is for sure: only a political, not a judicial, process will get our country by this issue. In the meantime, try Bayh, or Reid next time. They both voted for the ban on partial birth. Or look at the other Senators or Representatives that voted for that ban and pick one. Put another person who stood opposed to that ban up as a candidate - and you will lose again. BTW: The guy who created the "back alley death" statistics in 1972 has said since he made them up out of whole cloth.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:43:48 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy writes - "Didn't find WMD's? No problem- let's redefine "WMD" to fit the charge and say, "See? Had 'em all the time." PPJ wonders if Blaghdaddy... of well, I'll give up on the sarcasm, it is useless anyway. Hey dude! Got any proof of that? "You still haven't answered Blaghdaddy's question about how it's unconstitional to block 10 out of 200 nominees..." The constutution calls for the Senate to review the President's nominee and to advise and consent. If the Senate does not do so it is not following its constitutional mandated duties, and its actions are non-constitutional. This argument is simple, undoubtedly correct, and makes hypocrites of both sides for their past actions. It also appears to be so simply correct that the Left will fight it tooth and nail. CA - Given that the judicary is charged with determining if our laws are constitutional, then by simple logic it follows that they must not be involved in any way with the writing of those laws. To do otherwise would mock "checks and balances." JCH - The "social liberal" was stolen by the Left. Reasonable beliefs in freedoms of speech, debates over laws, were destroyed in the radicalism of the opponents of the Vietnam war. The same country that could, finally, produce a Civil Rights act, could not legalize abortion, so it went to the court, and a right was found. Even though I am pro choice, it would have been better for this to have been settled in Congress because there could be no doubt as to legality. Judges who make quantum jumps produce bad law and civil strife and disagreement. We are at the end of a long cycle of judical dominance. The Left recognizes this and is worried. They have sown the wind, and they are reaping fruits. Blaghdaddy - Just for the record, Lincoln was a Republican. If he had nukes, there would be a whole lot less Demos. ;-)

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#69)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 05:45:16 PM EST
    The problem with the ban on "partial birth abortion," JCH, was that there wasn't a single solitary provision in that ban about the health of the mother. There was nothing. And yet this CRITICAL fact was entirely lost in the way the MSM reported on it. Was the fact lost on you as well? And, for goodness sakes, why the dishonesties and misrepresentations by the GOP on this issue, if they feel so damned righteous about it? The failure to include a provision for the mother's health is but one of multiple examples of the things that need to be out there in the open for everyone to think about, to discuss. Does requiring parental notification of a minor getting an abortion, for example, extend to father-daughter, uncle-niece, brother-sister relationships and the like? Are we truly comfortable ceding reproductive rights away from the mother and to, say, the grandmother? There a so many other contingencies to consider, aren't they, no matter what angle you come from? And none of them are easy. But what pisses me off about the GOP is that they fight underhanded with this issue, they acknowledge no contingencies, they simply give lip service and even false information to their base. Can they not engage the matter cleanly, like Coburn for example, who called (albeit in front of a VERY select audience and the MSM ignored it, big surprise) for the execution of abortion doctors?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:01:41 PM EST
    Glanton, No one said politics were clean. Also, this particular procedure was the most brutal of three different types performed at this gestation period - by only two major doctors. A grand total of 600 per year. Easy to give up, because the other two procedures still existed for the "health of the mother" concerns. Sorry Glanton: The Democrats were simply stuffed politically by their own foolishness - take political gun and stick it to political head and pull trigger. Do not blame the Republicans for being more adroit politically. Follow Roe: unrestricted 1st 12 weeks, and then show real concern about the rights of the the baby - and the Democratics may actually win some ground on this issue. Speak to the fact that 47% of abortions are for people who have had one before - its not birth control. Be responsible

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:09:08 PM EST
    Oh and parental notification, My daughter can not have an aspirin at school without my knowledge. She should be able to be pregnant, and get surgery, without me knowing and giving my permission. Come on brother.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:25:16 PM EST
    Jim, have you ever heard of case law? If you think the Courts have no impact on public policy, I would direct your attention to Brown v. Board of Education or Arizona v. Miranda.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:25:42 PM EST
    Or Roe v. Wade for that matter.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:30:01 PM EST
    JC, you defeated glanton with your comment about no political victory for pro-partial-birth abortion Dems. It's a fact. Jim, Blag is beaten. Save your fingertips. You cannot "teach physics to a dog".

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:36:48 PM EST
    Brown was based on the 14th and 15th amendments (political action not court). But again, we would have been better off with a political solution then, or better yet, at the time of Plesy v Ferguson (establishing separate but equal) wouldnt we. Oh but wait, filibuster made a political solution impossible.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#76)
    by glanton on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:38:35 PM EST
    Doctor Ace: For some of us these discussions are not like video games. Think about it. JCH: "Follow Roe: unrestricted 1st 12 weeks, and then show real concern about the rights of the the baby - and the Democratics may actually win some ground on this issue" This sounds very reasonable to me, as long as there are always contingent provisions for the health of the mother. As for parental notification, believe me, I see your point. I do however worry about those daughters who are not so fortunate to have a father like you; sadly, familial sexual abuse is a reality still, and will forever be. So again we need contingencies. And I do find it weird and even chilling, to think of a parent forcing his or her child to give birth. I just think these things need to be debated openly and cleanly--the dirtiness of politics is no excuse, we don't have to keep electing the same damned crooks and liars. The media could help immensely by farming issues as they are, instead of courting tabloid techniques. Peace out, my man.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 06:57:53 PM EST
    Glanton, Self-defense is not a problem for me - I do not believe the child is more important than the mom. But right now that is about 3% of abortions. I might force my daughter to give birth - and then adopt the baby. That's a bridge I do not want to cross for sure

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 07:01:31 PM EST
    And back to political point: because everytime abortion is discussed the Democratics come out on the side of not restricting anything - that is how you are percieved: All abortions are fine right up to delivery. Death by bad politics - not the Republicans fault.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 24, 2005 at 08:39:48 PM EST
    CA - Again, nonsense. I said they should not be involved in public policy, not that rulings don't effect public policy.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:50:17 AM EST
    "For some of us these discussions are not like video games. Think about it." So far, glanton, JC trying to mollycoddle you with the facts has one thing in common with video games; that is, both are a waste of time. You are self-centered to think this is about you. You are an example to thousand of readers here about how not to consider abortion on demand. Now isn't that something to think about?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#81)
    by glanton on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 07:58:43 AM EST
    Doctor Ace: Yes, it is indeed something to think about. I am well aware that JCH has raised good points; the Dems have hurt themselves very much by not bringing this debate out into the oepn and staking clear positions on every media outlet they can find. But what bothers me about your rhetoric is that you frame the abortion issue as though it were incredibly simple, void of contingency. You just assume "abortion is murder," under any circumsatcnes, no matter when it is performed. Don't you? If I am missing something please correct me. JCH: I just read John Leo's collumn, released today, on "Justice Sunday." I think you'd like it, you can find him on townhall.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 08:35:07 AM EST
    Glanton, I do agree - almost exactly. I haven't seen any real reporting on the event afterwords - except some excerpts from Bill Frist that seems like he kept it in the road.- and of course I watched something useful last night: my old copy of The Magnificent Seven Doc and I live in a simpler world where there are some things that are wrong and shouldn't be done - even if I have to suffer because I do not do them. Everybody defines these things for themselves - but a democratic society defines them overall by the political process. We have regretfully allowed judges to substitute their personal lists for ours.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 08:44:11 AM EST
    "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, IN August, 16, 1993

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 09:57:39 AM EST
    Tris, substitute the words "secular" and "secularism" for the religious words in that screed and you have a sharp description of leftist attitudes there.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:02:28 AM EST
    Come on, You put a quote in (without attributing it) from Randall Terry (if the painters web site can be trusted) that is 12 years old. I tried the New-Sentinel web site to see if I could find the original story in their archives - no (maybe too old, maybe made up - who knows). Can't you find a primary source a little newer?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:57:14 AM EST
    JCH Fleeetguy, Assume, just for the sake of argument, that the quote is real. Do you agree with it? If you don't agree with it, and are prepared to denounce Randall Terry as the hatemonger he clearly is, I will contact the News-Sentinel to confirm what what we both know is true, that this quote is quite real. This is not David Barton-land. (FCH, Some advice. Don't agree with it. Rather, argue that when it comes to pluralism, especially of the postmodern kind, it's a Christian's duty to be intolerant. That's the tactic your fellow wingers are doing all over the web and we wouldn't want you to get in trouble with them, now would we?)

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:58:16 AM EST
    There are no examples I found of someone referencing this quote before 1999.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:06:08 AM EST
    Tristero, You've talked with me enough to know the answer - of course I do not agree. Its non-Biblical, unchristian, etc etc. I started searching for the source because it was so off the wall I couldn't believe someone could say it and still have any christian following (which incidentally he hardly does). My point here is you picked a 12 year old quote because it is particularly outrageous; didnt check the source; didnt look at where this guy stands in the scheme of things; and didnt even give his name. This thing doesn't appear on the web before 1999.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#89)
    by chupetin on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:14:47 AM EST
    Over at Alterman's blog The conservative movement has many decent, capable and thoughtful representatives to articulate and advance its positions. Thas why JCHFleetguy will always be welcome and ACE gets limited posts

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:18:43 AM EST
    Oh and I was looking for the source to see what the little . . . took out. Since it might be: "its good to hate sin but you must love the sinner" or some such thing. So do not come back with anything other than the whole speech.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:41:53 AM EST
    JCH fleetguy, I'm very sorry for omitting Randall Terry's name from that quote. I am glad you agree with me that the quote is disgraceful. Unfortunately, it is not the only such quote. The christianists wallow in this garbage and I can easily direct you to numerous similar expressions of intolerance and hate. So do not come back with anything other than the whole speech. I most certainly will not play that silly game with you. If I came back with a transcript of the speech, you could question the accuracy of the transcript and demand an audiotape. If I found an audiotape, you could claim it was easy to doctor audio. If I found a videotape, you could claim that I have to look at the context of the whole of Terrry's activities at that time and how far he's grown. Eventually, you could say his words were just excusable hyperbole never meant to be taken seriously. This, after all, is the tactic that right typically uses when the rest of America catches them when they think they won't be overheard. No. I promised to contact the News-Sentinel and confirm the quote. I will do that. I may not hear from them, but I will try very hard to reach them. After I confirm the article and that the quote appeared, you can either accept that the News-Sentinel quoted him properly or you can do your own research. But if I were you I woulnt't bother. We both know that the quote is real because it is so in keeping with everything known about Randall Terry and resembles so many other things he's said.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:04:06 PM EST
    And while I am defending my puralism:
    Therefore, I see no reason to pussyfoot around with anyone who is lobbying to have lies taught in public school biology classes - Tristero
    This is puralism? There are holes you can drive dinosaurs through in evolutionary theory - how DNA came about being a big one. Do you know that? and did you learn it along with all those other truths in school? Does your child know that no one can explain how the first life form got life. Or how the simplest one-celled amoebas have something as complex and information rich as DNA in them. Or that amino acids do not spontaneously chain up into proteins without the RNA instruction set - and how would that be there for the first chain-up. Or that genetic science has traced the entire human race through mitrochondrial DNA to one male/female pair. Is that taught in grade schools? And no, this is not the place for a discussion of evolution vs. intelligent design - this is a discussion about some ideas being theories that are scientific; and my ideas being superstitions and (how did Jefferson put it) "restrained" on the "supposition of their ill tendency" Whew, sorry - but secular folk calling me "superstitious" with one breath while claiming they are "puralist" and "tolerant" with the other is a bit annoying.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:14:15 PM EST
    No - the news-sentinal would be the only source - its not in the web. I am not calling you a liar - I believe in your integrity. Randall Terry is probably a fool, and probably said this, but if I have to deal with it I would rather not get one sentence out of context. Especially, since the 1st example of it I find is 6 years after the utterance. Get a transcript - I wont require the audio tape - i promise. And I do not believe in hyperbole to make a point - if he said it, and the context doesnt help, its wrong. Words matter. Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will really hurt you.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:22:04 PM EST
    Tristero's a bigger hate-monger than any Christian I've ever met.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:25:55 PM EST
    JCH Fleetguy, Don't change the subject. You challenged me to find that Randall Terry quote in the News-Sentinel. I did, at their website. I purchased the entire article. The following is from the Fort Wayne Sentinel August of August 16, 1993. These are direct quotes from Randall Terry. The article also includes paraphrases that are not quoted: "I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good," he told more than 200 people who showed up to hear him Saturday night at the First Assembly of God, 3301 Coliseum Blvd. (snip) 'If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple." Taylor University, of Fort Wayne and Upland. ''Taylor University is a disgrace to Christianity. They have a pro-choice professor on staff who they refuse to discipline." Any Christian who uses birth control. Christians use birth control for the same anti-child reasons non- Christians get abortions, he said. In using contraception, Christians fall under the spell of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, "a whore, an enemy of Christ, a hater of the church." ''If America is going to survive, it must be rebuilt squarely on the Ten Commandments," he said. "Not republicanism. Not conservatism. Not family values. . . . Our goal is a Christian nation. . . . We have a biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism." And he told the cheering audience that Christians shouldn't be put off by the word "theocracy." ''No, I'm telling you we already live in a theocracy. No, theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash: God rules. All of this is entirely in character for Randall Terry. It is for this reason that Randall Terry is rightly labelled an extremist.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:26:27 PM EST
    Horse, you chicken, answer my questions.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:28:25 PM EST
    Tristero Certainly, you are a bigoted fool. Your posts remove all doubt.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:29:37 PM EST
    I agree based on what was quoted which is all I have (but the whole transcript would have been nice). Now to my question about your puralism - are you an extremist?

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 12:45:09 PM EST
    JCH Fleetguy, I know you weren't questioning my integrity. Randall Terry, unfortunately, is worse than a fool. He's a very disturbed individual whose personal life has been as messy as his extremist poltical tactics. Terry has been thrown out of his own denomination for cheating on his wife (who divorced him), and who has denounced his own child because he came out as gay. I knew the quote had to be real because it is oh so typical of Terry. The only reason I went through the exercise was to prove this point: When I quote something, you can be sure my sources are good. There is a lot of false information on the internet, but I know enough about research to weed through it. In the future, JCH, if I can't find a link (and I will always link when I think it is necessary), please understand that I am confident that I can prove that all my quotes, stats, etc. are real. I am not asking for you to trust me blindly, or even trust me. But I'm not going through this kind of an exercise again for you or anyone else merely to prove something I already know such as that Randall Terry has no business being taken seriously by serious people, or that the christianists who have overwhelmed public discourse on religion are merely cynical, vicious, lying political operatives who deserve no quarter.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 01:07:00 PM EST
    You ask, Am I an extremist? No, I am not. I am a moderate liberal with an extensive public record demonstrating my respect for religious expression of all kinds. Like many liberals, I can tolerate everything but intolerance and lies. Therefore, I find Randall Terry intolerable.* Therefore, I find attempts to undermine science education by teaching lies to children intolerable. Regarding science, I will not discuss evolution with you other than to say that all the questions you bring up are trivial ones that have been answered repeatedly and conclusively at either the pharyngula.com website or the talkorigins.com website. You could also read a book such as Creationism's Trojan Horse for more information. Science, and only science, should be taught in public school science classes. Lies, religious doctrines, and pseudo-science have no business in science classes. (And yes, to claim that evolution is a religious doctrine is to willfully misunderstand the English-language meaning of the terms involved.) Specifically, creationist claptrap like IDiocy (the falsely named "intelligent design") has no business in science class. However, if teachers wanted to mention IDiocy in a class on comparative religion, I wouldn't mind, although even there it's such a wacko belief -right up there with astrology and UFO's behind the Hale-Bopp comet -that not too much time should be wasted on it. * Insert boilerplate here to assure paranoid rightwingers to the effect that I also find Ward Churchill just as intolerable as Randall Terry, even though it is unclear why anyone would assume I'd be any more sympathetic to Churchill than Terry in the first place.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 02:25:08 PM EST
    Link to 'em, Horse. The best of us deal with reality here. Don't forget, Chup, truth plus ignorance equals anger. I don't profess to be a "nice" guy, but rest assured, I am a good guy.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 02:50:17 PM EST
    There's a terrific set of two articles in this months Harper's on the christianists. The best is the second, by Chris Hedges. The Mahablog keyboarded in the last few paragraphs of the Hedges article (it's not available online): I can’t help but recall the words of my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, Dr. James Luther Adams, who told us that when we were his age, and he was then close to eighty, we would all be fighting the “Christian fascists.” He gave us that warning twenty-five years ago, when Pat Robertson and other prominent evangelists began speaking of a new political religion that would direct its efforts at taking control of all major American institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government, so as to transform the United States into a global Christian empire. At the time, it was hard to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously. But fascism, Adams warned, would not return wearing swastikas and brown shirts. Its ideological inheritors would cloak themselves in the language of the Bible; they would come carrying crosses and chanting the Pledge of Allegiance. Adams had watched American intellectuals and industrialists flirt with fascism in the 1930s. Mussolini’s “Corporatism,” which created an unchecked industrial and business aristocracy, had appealed to many at the time as an effective counterweight to the New Deal. In 1934, Fortune magazine lavished praise on the Italian dictator for his defanging of labor unions and his empowerment of industrialists at the expense of workers. Then as now, Adams said, too many liberals failed to understand the power and allure of evil, and when the radical Christians came, these people would undoubtedly play by the old, polite rules of democracy long after those in power had begun to dismantle the democratic state. Adams had watched German academics fall silent or conform. He knew how desperately people want to believe the comfortable lies told by totalitarian movements, how easily those lies lull moderation into passivity. Adams told us to watch closely the Christian right’s persecution of homosexuals and lesbians. Hitler, he reminded us, promised to restore moral values not long after he took power in 1933, then imposed a ban on all homosexual and lesbian organizations and publications. Then came raids on the places where homosexuals gathered, culminating on May 6, 1933, with the ransacking of the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin. Twelve thousand volumes from the institute’s library were tossed into a public bonfire. Homosexuals and lesbians, Adams said, would be the first “deviants” singled out by the Christian right. We would be the next. FWIW, 25 years ago, I too had premonitions of the awful abuse of religious faith taking place today, but I lacked Dr. Adams' prescience in predicting its strategy.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 03:06:01 PM EST
    Tristero, Thanks for the sites - added them to my links - I'll look around. As a seeker of the truth, you can have these: talkorigins and make sure you look at Behe's response; Discovery Institute; International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design Neither of us are microbiologists, and we have both found the science to support our faith. But my point is, there is science going on in these links; and there is faith wrapped up in your science - faith that the open, major questions can be answered short of God. Please do not deny that and then talk about puralism or tolerance.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 04:39:37 PM EST
    "ere is faith wrapped up in your science - faith that the open, major questions can be answered short of God. Please do not deny that and then talk about puralism or tolerance." I deny nothing. You well know that to deny presumes a deliberate refusal to acknowledge something that is real. And so it is you, not I, who deny the reality of physics and biology, topics that have has as much to with issues of faith as tcp/ip. The question as to whether Christ is part of the holy trinity or was the "son of man" he said he wa, or was simply one of many great rabbis as Jews and Muslims believe doesn't matter a whit to a scientific explanation of the evolution of species or a calculation in quantum physics. The answer will not in any way affect the results. Christ may or may not be relevant to one's spriitual and affective life, but one's particular views on Christ will not in any way help one become a better physicist, a better botanist, a better biologist, a better mathematician, and so on. (History also shows that one's view on Christ's also won't make you a moral person, but that's another story.) You have fallen into precisely the theological problem that everyone who seeks scientific proof of God falls into: trivializing the very nature of religious belief. According to you, God is what science doesn't know anything about, what science cannot, at present, explain. God becomes merely the sum of probabilities or a measure of uncertainty, or ignorance. That is a mighty skimpy and deeply unsatisfying notion of God. More to the point, it is nothing even remotely close to the God (or perhaps Gods, as there are substantial differences in the personalities of the supreme being within individual books) described within the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, and the Qu'ran. It also has another problem. If you make the mistake of seeking God through science, then the more science is able to explain, the more God's role becomes circumscribed as scientific knowledge accumulates. Again, that makes for a very unsatisfying theology. In fact, most Christian and Jewish theologies around these days, including the one espoused by the recently deceased Pope, make it quite clear that the Bible was never intended to be read as a geology or biology textbook (there may be contemporary Muslim theologies that also have no problems with science). But you don't even need to be a theologian. Simple common sense would tell you that Genesis has a spiritual meaning and was never intended to be taken as literally true. Only one group today, christianists, places opposition to science at the center of its public concerns. Not the disgraceful level of poverty still in the US, not the awful amount of violent crimes committed by a glut of gun-toting lunatics, not even the obscene advocacy of gambling by the government. No! The real problem that we need to obsess over is whether an obscure and complex scientific theory should be taught in public schools. And this bizarre obsession is one reason that christianism can be identified as a political movement that hides itself behind the trappings of religion in order to deflect criticism. For christianism is based on a set of interlocking lies about faith, about science, and about the nature of American politics and culture. It also is perfectly compatible with the most reprehensible bigots and lunatics, including Eric Rudolph, Randall Terry, and so many others. And christianism's aim is very clear: to transform the United States into a theocracy. You mention Behe. Behe has been debunked so many times by so many different experts he has lost even the semblance of credibility. He has also yet to present any original finding or do any serious research. As Creationism's Trojan Horse makes quite clear, despite his training, in his work espousing creationism he is a political operative, not a scientist. Scientifically, there is no there there and to dismiss him without mockery is, frankly, more than he deserves.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 04:48:34 PM EST
    You miss the point and this is off thread - so again I point you to the iscid site above where the evolution vs design argument is going on between the scientists of both sides.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 05:39:00 PM EST
    "disgraceful level of poverty still in the US, not the awful amount of violent crimes committed by a glut of gun-toting lunatics..." This is pure jive, Tris. There is no material poverty in the US (plenty of social poverty, expecially on the left). Even the poorest in America have food ,cars, central heat, cable TV, etc. With your "gun-toting lunatics", are you to smear plenty of middle-class gun owners who are law-abiding citizens who have never committed a crime? There can be no debate until you align yourself with reality. This is why so many people don't even bother to debate the left, but simply resolve to vote them down,. This is why the left must resort to end runs around democracy, forcing their agenda through the courts, and now run filibusters because they may now even lose that option. But there is no reasoning with people who will not acknowledge the facts. So there.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 06:42:06 PM EST
    Hey Horse, Doc I am out of here too

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#108)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 10:45:41 PM EST
    JCH Fleetguy It is you, not I, that advocates teaching lies to schoolchildren, and I will fight as hard as I possibly can to make sure children are only taught the truth in science classes. I got your point, JCH Fleetguy. Completely. But understanding your point does not mean I either accept it as reasonable or, more importantly, that I am willing to accept the terms under which you choose to carry on a discussion. You can declare evolution a religion from now till the cows come home, but that will never make it one. It is you, not I, that is in denial about physics and biology. There are not two sides to the scientific discussion over evolution of species but rather numerous sides. These sides the advocates of a so-called gradual process and those who advance a more complex history called "punctuated equilibrium." There are also others who argue for other essential evolutionary mechanisms besides Darwin's "natural selection." But the IDiots are not part of that debate for one simple reason. They are arguing without any scientific standing because they have presented no real facts. None.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:06:38 PM EST
    Tristero, I appreciate your view, but obviously your dogmatism on this point makes it difficult to continue a discussion - and as you have probably noticed I am not into mudslinging or hyperbole. We will just have to agree to disagree, and know that the truth is there for science to find.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#110)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Apr 25, 2005 at 11:20:17 PM EST
    JCH Fleetguy, Teaching lies to schoolchildren is not a point of view I will ever learn to appreciate. Nor will I ever learn to appreciate any theology so fearful, timid and spiritually thin that it requires something as theologically inconsequential as scientific proof to uphold its truths. I do appreciate that you do not personalize, however. Regarding iscid, their methods are discussed at Panda's Thumb at the following link among other places. They appear to be one of the pseudoscience sites funded by the extreme right that imitates the look and feel of real science. But when you look at their methods closely, they neglect to follow conventional protocols of scientific publication and presentation. http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000222.html#more

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#111)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 10:02:55 AM EST
    That's my point: Ive been to Panda's thumb, and the two other links you've mentioned. Since I have some lay interest in this topic I have saved the links and plan to go back and read the critiques, arguments,etc. Have you been to iscid, or will you protect yourself from opposing views because those you agree with tell you not to bother? You can keep saying I want to teach "lies" (insulting me helps keep the discussion moving on for sure); but I seem to be seeking truth a little more strenuously than you.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#112)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 10:35:40 AM EST
    Tristero Answer these questions, or be a chicken. 1. What was the mechanism for the first spontaneous generation of Life? Please provide links. 2. Show me physical evidence (not just theory) that macroevolution has taken place. Again, cite links. You won't be able to do this. Neither could your pal PZ, when I debated him a little while ago. The reason? There is NO EVIDENCE, it is all THEORY accepted on FAITH - much like religious beliefs.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 11:10:44 AM EST
    Tristero, You keep saying I "need" science to prove God - no I do not. I simply - because God exists, is alive, and creative - would expect science to never be able to prove He doesn't exist. I guarantee that if (see I'll give you that word) a naturalistic explanation for life and its diversity ever fails - your personal view of God (or his lack) will be affected more than mine would if the opposite occurs. Interesting, the attitude of the earliest scientists was that they had a rational God and expected Him to create a rational universe (not a random one); so they went out to study it because they knew they would be able to understand it on a rational level. That is my attitude. Since I became a christian 10 years ago no major scientific advance has undermined my faith - and many have strengthened it. I am a scientist at heart - and you may have noticed I do pay some attention.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 11:11:48 AM EST
    I went to iscid immediately after you posted the link. I saw nothing there I hadn't seen before. You are absolutely correct that I have no interest in reading someone else's lies. I suspect you may have no idea how extensive ID creationist lying is. They lie about the research they've done. They've done none. That's right, they've done no research that has withstood scientific peer review. They lie about their credentials and their scientific intentions. They have none as the leaked internal documents about ID (such as the Wedge) make clear. They lie about the sources of their funding; it comes from the some of the most extreme elements of the fringe right. They lie about the theological importance of evolution for Christianity (it was not important to John Paul II, for one). And they lie about freedom of expression, twisting the normal meaning of terms like "religion," "evolution," and "science" until they mean the exact opposite of what they are supposed to mean. And when they are caught lying, they simply say, I've anticipated that objection and it will be addressed in my next book. Which then spreads more lies. Ad nauseatum. Again, there are many sides in the scientific discourse on evolution, but ID is not one of those sides because despite all the hype, it has demonstrated no scientific standing. Nor is it likely to, according to those who have plowed through everything Dembski and Behe have written. Does having an open mind require me to take astrology seriously merely because so many people believe it? It does not. Does having an open mind require me to carefully study Erich von Daniken's theories? It does not. Does having an open mind require me to take seriously people who have no scientific integrity and who are deliberately trying to infect the teaching of science with their hare-brained, and blatantly political, pseudo-theories? It does not. Pharyngula and The Panda's Thumb, as well as many other sites, read the IDiots so smart people don't have to bother. These sites contain pieces by mainstream biologists and other scientists; their opinion has not changed since Dembski and Behe started to publish. There is no intelligence in "intellgent design" or creationism. Instead of reading liars, I'd much rather do something positive for my soul such as read Niles Eldredge on evolution. Or listen once again to Howlin' Wolf, or look at the masterpieces of Piet Mondrian. Or follow the latest debates on the causes of the K-T extinction. Or read in wonder about Homo Floresiensis. Or ponder once again St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul. If my lack of interest in pseudoscience causes you to think I'm narrow-minded, I'm not. The range of my interests and variety of my personal friends demonstrates that beyond any shadow of a doubt. But life is short. So I'd rather have beauty and truth in my life than cheap, phony trash like the latest stupid tv show, or pseudoscience like crystal healing, astrology, and creationism. You may like this stuff and that, of course, is your right. I've know several people who fervently believe in astrology; Ronald Reagan did as well. But it is not right for schools to teach crystal healing as part of medicine, or astrology as part of probability theory, or IDiocy as an "alternative" theory of the origin of species. To do so is to succumb to precisely the kind of relativism christianists claim they deplore. Simply because you, or 2/3's of the country, believe something is scientifically true does not make that belief science or give you the right to equal time in a science class. Likewise, refusing to waste time on non-science isn't censorhip or oppression. It's plain commonsense. Enough. This subject is closed as far as I'm concerned. Take your objections to PZ Meyers. When you convince him that he's wrong and you're right, please let me know and I will be happy to discuss this further with you.

    Re: 'Justice Sunday': Smoke and Mirrors (none / 0) (#115)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 26, 2005 at 11:15:31 AM EST
    Oh and back to the point: Why should you be able to:
    restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency
    I thought you believed in the separation of church and state?