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New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion

It was Pope Benedict XVI, formerly known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who inserted the Catholic church into the 2004 election by ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters, including candidate John Kerry.

In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin."

He specifically mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws," a reference widely understood to mean Democratic candidate Kerry, a Catholic who has defended abortion rights. The letter said a priest confronted with such a person seeking communion "must refuse to distribute it."

I linked to the June, 2004 letter in my earlier post on the Pope here, and quoted other language. Here is the language about the Catholic politician:

4. Apart from an individuals’s judgement about his worthiness to present himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, the minister of Holy Communion may find himself in the situation where he must refuse to distribute Holy Communion to someone, such as in cases of a declared excommunication, a declared interdict, or an obstinate persistence in manifest grave sin (cf. can. 915).

5. Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person’s formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church’s teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist. (emphasis supplied.)

Ratzinger even instructed the Bishops on which voters could receive communion.

[N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.]

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    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:29:33 PM EST
    If Ratzinger had been Pope when he made these remarks on behalf of the Bush campaign, would that have meant that Kerry had been excommunicated? If not, why not?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 10:50:27 PM EST
    Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a personís formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Churchís teaching That pretty much says it all.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:12:57 PM EST
    Do you people not understand that abortion is against the teachings of the Catholic church and is considered killing an innocent life? If you don't like it, find another church! You people are just like the right-wing morons who want to censor cable TV instead of using the damn remote control! What, do you expect a pope who will ignore the teachings of the church whenever you don't agree with them?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:40:55 PM EST
    Oh this is going to be fun, I forgot he did that to Kerry, so what will he do next, order the axis to attack us here? or just help bin laden with money and a nuke? this guy talks about sin? when he followed old hitler? good god what is the world coming to? anyway he won't live long about 3 years. the next pope will be the end of that church.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#5)
    by Kitt on Tue Apr 19, 2005 at 11:46:47 PM EST
    "Do you people not understand that abortion is against the teachings of the Catholic church and is considered killing an innocent life?" Yet another troll stopping off.... The Catholic church has changed many of its major teachings - abortion is one; a married clergy is another; receipt of the host is yet another; the church hasn't always been static. Whatever benefits the hierarchy is what its all about...control and power. As for Ratzinger 'ordering' Kerry be denied communion, although it's not something I agreed with, it was Ratzinger's job as head of the Congregation for Doctrine. I'm not thrilled by any means. I'm hoping for another John XXIII.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:25:47 AM EST
    A "troll"? Is that what you call anyone who introduces a different point of view into your mutual admiration society? Refusing to consider and discuss opinions contrary to your own is not the path back to the minority, Jack.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:29:48 AM EST
    Sorry, make that "path back to the majority." You're already in the minority.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#8)
    by Kitt on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:46:24 AM EST
    Introducing a different point of view... you presented a couple of snide and inflammatory remarks. Your tone isn't conducive for discussion....you're trolling to incite and inflame.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#9)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:20:11 AM EST
    If you don't like it, find another church! Very well said. No one forces you to believe what the Catholic church decrees. Religion is a choice. Anyone who will abide by the teachings of the church is welcome to be in the church, those that don't aren't being forced to stay. It's just like here. If someone violates the comment rules TL established, she has the right to enact whatever form of correctional measures she chooses because it's her sight and no one is forced to come here. With the plethora of protestant denominations out there there is a place for those who don't want to say the Pope has moral authority. But a major tenet of Catholocism is that the Church is the holder of Absloute Truth, and that the Pope has moral authority over the Church. Oh, and Kitt, it seems from your comments that you are advancnig the line of reasoning that there is no set doctrine in the Church, but only current doctrine that is changable. Some things the Church can't change her teachings on; issues in which she has spoken infalliably. Those are declarations of Absloute Truth. If I have misinterpreted your comments, I apologise in advance.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:30:47 AM EST
    Isn't the Vatican an independent nation? Isn't one nation interfering in the internal politics of another grounds for war, or at the very least the breaking of diplomatic relations?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:38:15 AM EST
    A little OT, but I was wondering what happened to all the Catholic soldiers in the US military after the Pope said the Iraq war was NOT a just war. Were they denied communion, or did the church meter out some other form of punishment?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:38:25 AM EST
    Allen- Apparently not. France did everything it could to obstruct Bush and to get Kerry elected, and we haven't declared war on France. W.C. Varones

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#13)
    by john horse on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 02:45:40 AM EST
    BigTex, For another point of view about the Catholic church, let me suggest Why I Am A Catholic by Garry Wills. The key to what being Catholic, according to Wills, is in following and believing in the Apostles Creed. The Pope's authority (especially the doctrine of infallibility) was not part of original church doctrine. If you don't believe in or can't follow the Apostles Creed, you're not a Catholic. Period. The same cannot be said of the Pope (and you can find historical examples of things that Popes have said or practiced that most people do not believe in today). There was a story that when John XXIII became Pope he asked that a curtain be opened to let in some light. How sad that this once opened curtain seems to be slowly closing for the church.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:21:01 AM EST
    Some things the Church can't change her teachings on; issues in which she has spoken infalliably. Those are declarations of Absloute Truth.
    Its true but what are those things about which they have spoken infallibly about? Certainly the Church has not been consistent over the 2000 years of its existence concerning sex, abortion and birth control. The problem with the catholic church in particular and all religions in general is that they are administered by people. Many times they are no different and in some cases worse morally than the people they administer to. This is epitomized by the manner in which the church handled the sexual abuse cases against priests inthe Boston area. They shifted the priests from one parish to another, they hid records, denied any wrong doing, smeared the accusers, try to hide their assets and in the end promoted Cardinal Law to the Vatican. Seeing his face on TV during the recent weeks having a role in the activities there symbolizes their indifference to misbehavior by their own. In the end they are no different than any other large structured organization. Protect their own. But this is not what I expect from a religious organization who supposedly speaks with the ultimate moral authority. Where's the moral outrage for the priests guilty of sexual abuse and those who protected them? Are they too busy worrying about someone somewhere having sex with a condom on? Before you start throwing the bricks I was an alter boy and spent 12 years in catholic school and lost hope when Vatican II became irrelevant and the movement back to the 15th century began.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:26:00 AM EST
    The Puritans rejected the Church of England, i.e. the King's fiats, and would not accept the edicts decried as authority. The also rejected the authourity of the papacy. They were content living without somebody breathing down their necks examining their every move. The Puritans were considered 'liberal in the 15th and 16th centuries. Shunned and excluded from the rest of society, but they didn't care what the Pope said. They weren't buying none of it. I am with the Puritans, I ain't buying anything the Pope says. I was at a Catholic funeral to bury a relative many years ago now. The Priest was so drunk, he couldn't remember the name of the my deceased relative. Beam me up, Scotty. At least, to the New World where we can wreak havoc on 30 million North American natives. Jesus can save them after the Pope comdemns them. Good Lord.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:39:12 AM EST
    I am far from a supporter of the catholic church, but isn't this point arguing that John Kerry, or any other self-professed catholic, has a right to communion in the catholic church regardless of whether or not he or they adhere to the principle beliefs of the church? From whence does this right to communion grow?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:53:50 AM EST
    Yes abortion to most Catholics is wrong, but so is war and death penalty. If leaders are going to be critical of these ideas then why not excommunicate those who support other ideas condoned by the Church? Shouldnít politicians who support war and death penalty be denied communion as well?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:01:58 AM EST
    This is really no surprise at all. I remember Ratzinger and his "work" from Germany. I said it before and I'll say it again: "Don't let that little, old man with the soft name fool ya! He fills the Devils shoes just fine..."

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:05:33 AM EST
    Greg, Given that we are talking about a church that has started quite a number of wars, which has, in the past, had its own army, and which for a long time practiced capital punishment itself (burning "witches" anyone?), I'm not so sure the church's stance on war and the death penalty is monolithic. However, I do agree that, if they are 100% against these things, then yes, perhaps they should deny communion to those who do not share that position. But that is, in my opinion, something the church has to deal with on its own. Given that the church does have such a stance against abortion, what right does anyone who supports abortion have to receive communion in the catholic church?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:36:28 AM EST
    Why is only a problem for pro choice Catholic Democrats What about Guiliani and The Exaggerator

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:41:44 AM EST
    It may be more informative to review Cardinal McCarrick's statement regarding that letter. In fact, Cardinal McCarrick was criticized by conservative politicians, when he noted that the Bishops were not in agreement about denying Communion. The Cardinal noted that leaving the decision to the individual Bishops was supported by the instructions in that letter. In other words, Ratzinger said they could do it, but did not "order" them to deny Communion.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:47:22 AM EST
    Denying someone Communion and excommunicating that person are two different things. Francis Kissling of Catholics for Choice who has supported abortion rights for years has not been excommunicated (and she probably still manages to receive Communnion). I have also personally witnessed Hillary Clinton receive Communion at a Roman Catholic Church in Buffalo, New York.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#23)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:49:56 AM EST
    The fact that John Kerry was publicly singled out and admonished for not toeing the Catholic party line (not a standard practice of the Church--this public admonishment) during a U.S. presidential election is quite telling. Several hints emerge that religious purity and dogma was not the reason behind the trumped-up villification of the Catholic candidate. One hint is that there was no equivalent discussion of other Catholic beliefs that must be honored by politicians, and they are many. Another hint is that even a moron knows that abortion is a hot button issue that, addressed as it was by the Church, would throw many votes to Bush, even though Bush's stances on lots of issues ran as polar opposites to Church teachings. No parallel public position was taken by the Church on Catholics' responsibility to vote against Catholic politicians who support the death penalty or who support the waging of a clearly unjust war (the infallable Pope said so). What I don't get is what the Church get out of its dishonest manipulation of U.S. Catholics, and what they get out of another Bush administration? What is their benefit in torpedoing Kerry for less than honest reasons?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:00:40 AM EST
    wishful good points. If they are going to call out Kerry on abortion the same should have done for Bush's unjustice war. With that said though I dont think this was a move by those in Europe, but given passing approval. In Rome they like their power and are not so willing to concede it. This is why an American pope is a long ways off.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:14:05 AM EST
    Wishful, Given the church's long, long, long history of active participation in international politics, one could justifiably suggest that this too is a part of the catholic tradition. Of course they were trying to influence the election, by influencing the catholic voters. This is no different that TalkLeft or MoveOn.org trying to influence liberal voters. As for why they did not also comment on Bush and the Iraq War: One can imagine that they made a choice in favor of what was, in their eyes, the lesser of two evils. If the church is truly opposed to abortion rights, as I believe it is, then having Bush, who is more likely to appoint a Supreme Court nominee who is opposed to the logic in Roe vs. Wade, is preferable, from their perspective, to Kerry, who would, in all likelihood, appoint a supporter of that logic. The church may also take the view that it can only fight so many battles at once, and given the choice between what it sees as the murder of innocents and an unjust war against a murderous regime, it chose to focus on the former. All of which is supposition of course (I'm not a cardinal and have no idea what kind of discussions go on in the Vatican) and none of which explains why they seem to focus on liberal politicians for this commentary. Maybe there is something else at work here?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:14:35 AM EST
    We have an American Pope, his name is Pat Robertson.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:30:37 AM EST
    If I was Kerry, I would have said "take your church and shove it". You can believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus and not join an organized church. In fact, look at Jesus in his day, he shunned his church. That being said, lowball political move by the church. Many many catholics pick and choose what church teachings they personally believe in, I don't see the church denying them communion. Half of any given mass is probably against abortion personally, yet pro-choice.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:31:17 AM EST
    Giordano Bruno went up in smoke, too. Martin Luther won't be getting any communion from Pope Benedict XVI.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:33:08 AM EST
    JustPaul - LOL you're not a cardinal? One sometimes wonders whom one is actually speaking to in here. Imagine George Bush as, say PPJ!

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:34:34 AM EST
    I could be wroong, but Bush is not a Catholic and the Pope did condemn the war. IIRC

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:49:04 AM EST
    In fact, look at Jesus in his day, he shunned his church.
    No, and after his death and resurrection Christians were a sect of Judiasm until it became untenable
    I could be wroong, but Bush is not a Catholic and the Pope did condemn the war. IIRC
    Thank you, how do you threaten a non-communicate with loss of communion

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:52:56 AM EST
    Did anyone consider asking the attorney general to revoke the Tax exempt status of the church Wasn't it a blatant attempt to interfere in and have a direct effect on the outcome of our Presidential Election? I think so. I remember the outrage from the wingnuts when Out siders voiced any support for Kerry!

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#33)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:53:03 AM EST
    I could be wroong, but Bush is not a Catholic and the Pope did condemn the war. IIRC
    Exactly! But there was no mention of denying communion to Catholic politicians, from Kerry on down, for their active support of an "unjust war". (See Pope statements.) There was no controversy played out on the front pages of our newspapers or Faux news about Catholic congregants' holy soul-saving requirement to vote against politicians who support unspeakable, anti-Christian actions like unjust wars. Unjust wars are a big deal Catholicly speaking, but were given a pass in our previous election by the Church, in stark contrast to their unremitting attention to the abortion issue. There is no denying that the Church's stance was pure manipulation, but I still don't get what their benefit was. Justpaul offers some speculation, but its theology doesn't make sense to me that innocent fetuses are so much more important than innocent "collateral damage" in an UNJUST war or death penalty victims, etc. Jesus nor the Catholic Church never taught that.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 07:58:27 AM EST
    I didn't read all the comments, so someone else might have mentioned this, but I will do so nonetheless. The frequency of abortion is unrelated to its legality; it's basically a factor of the number of unintended pregnancies. That means if you are actually serious about wanting to *prevent* it from occurring, the best way is through education/information and contraceptive use. The distinction between prevention and punishment is an important one to make. The Ratzlinger position is that individuals should be punished, but (since the church is opposed to contraceptives and discussion of sexuality in general) prevention should not be pursued. It's rather hypocritical. Throwing women and doctors in jail and forcing women into back alleys to end their pregnancies is not the answer if you really think abortion should be less frequent.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:01:33 AM EST
    Re: papal opposition to the Iraq war That's a typical conservative doctrine...causing the slaughter of thousands if not millions is forgivable, but pursuing a sensible policy on abortion rights is grounds for exommunication. Simply amazing.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:01:36 AM EST
    Am I the only one on this blog that understands Catholic teaching even remotely? If its anything its well thought out. The Pope never called the Iraq war an unjust war. And our new Pope never called for Kerry to be denied communion. As the person in charge of the Doctrine of the Faith, he clairified that any individual Bishop should consult and make clear to any politician that positions like abortion/euthanasia are against church teaching and why. At that point a individual Bishop is in a position were he MAY deny communion. Any way...

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#37)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:07:44 AM EST
    Fitz, the late Pope did indeed say that the Iraq war is an unjust war.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:09:43 AM EST
    I feel I must remind folks the Pope is just another Dictator. The only difference is he wears Religion as a political bullet proof vest after all how can we criticize some who wears the mantle of God on earth? Remember the word "Protestant" is self descriptive of those who revolted against the Dictator ruled Roman Catholic Church and it's corrupt practices, teachings and rulings.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:10:56 AM EST
    No, Im sorry - he did not His comments if they can be generalized..were a call to further negotation and a warning about a rush to war. He never labeled the Iraq war as being an "unjust war" Just war theory/doctrine is very specific theological discipline. Your listening to the Liberal Media again. (dont accept their spin blindly)

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#40)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:12:49 AM EST
    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:15:08 AM EST
    Pope John Paul II, for months a key moral voice opposing war, "deplores that negotiations under international law to find a peaceful solution to the Iraqi drama were interrupted," his spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:16:07 AM EST
    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:17:32 AM EST
    Excellent speculation from JustPaul. Thing is, this falls under a strategy being formulated and carried out where the end justifies the means. Yet, Church teaching always, everywhere stresses purity of means above worldly ends. Of course, this doesn't guarantee that those in power in the Vatican will always practice what they preach.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:22:17 AM EST
    Not one link provided says Pope john Paul II called the Iraq war an Unjust war (it a term of art, and intellectual conclusion- and makes a great deal of differeance) He said we rushed in and did not let the process play through. The one link is to Bombings in 1998? Yes the Pope is always against war (who in not?) But that is a far cry from saying that he proclaimed the Iraq Invasion to be fundemantally unjust.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:32:54 AM EST
    When Catholic theologian and American Enterprise Institute toady Michael Novak went to the Vatican to present the neo-con case that Iraq was a just war, he was given the cold shoulder by Vatican officials. Nonetheless, JP2 did not make a "Magesterial" pronouncement on the Iraq War. To overly simplify what goes on, he was not wearing his infallibility hat when he condemned the war as unjust, unlike when he spoke out against abortion, etc. And Fitz is right about the present pope, when he was Prefect for the Congregation for the Propagandization of the Faith, not having explicitly denied priests the right to share Communion with Kerry or other like-minded RC politicians. But he did make it clear that individual Bishops had the right to call upon priests under their diocesan control to enforce such a dictum. Complicated enuff?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:41:31 AM EST
    sensible policy on abortion rights
    For folks who believe this is the killing of a human being this is a bit of an oxymoron. Also, do not forget this came as Kerry was opposing a ban on intact D&X's - hardly part of a sensible policy on abortion rights
    but its theology doesn't make sense to me that innocent fetuses are so much more important than innocent "collateral damage" in an UNJUST war or death penalty victims, etc. Jesus nor the Catholic Church never taught that.
    the sheer number of abortions may have something to do with it: 3,600/day in the US; 123,000/day worldwide. What would anti-death penalty folks do if there were 3,600 scheduled for today? The anti-war folk if 3,600 Iraqis and Americans were going to die today? The Catholic Church is one of the few Christian religious denominations (or institutions of any sort) that consistantly stands pro-life in all of these sanctity of life issues - so respect that.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#47)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:48:50 AM EST
    Harold, thanks for the clarification. Now I get it. this is interpreted by some as Bush should be president and Kerry should not. All is well that ends well. Let's not worry our pretty little heads with all those silly things Jesus taught, when by not thinking, we can spin it all that we are practically saints, except for Kerry and his ilk. Pay no attention to those children with no insurance that Bush passed a bill in Texas as gov who could be removed from life support against the wishes of their parents if, among other things, they don't have money. Thank God the Pope didn't care to weigh in on this matter under his official hat. Just like the war--what the Pope says means nothing if he doesn't have his magic hat on when he says it. It is difficult to understand how people can compartmentalize like this. My fundamentalist friends call this outlook "legalistic". It is not a compliment.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:53:52 AM EST
    Something to bear in mind when discussing religion. Try substituting the phrase 'organized superstition' for organized religion or faith based. It gives a much better perspective when one says something such as 'The President said today that only orgainzed superstition based groups will get government funding for......', you get the idea. Ah, the Church. The wonderful monothestic, black and white Church. An organization whose sole purpose is to take over the world and force its narrowminded, white male centric view down their throats. In the last few centuries they've had to do their forcing a little more diplomatically and with a little more finesse but it's still the same thing. The world is black, the world is white. Black is wrong and white is right. Those who are not with us are against us. When considering the Church, this is the basis you should start from to put things in the proper perspective. The driving goal, the major purpose, the ONLY purpose of the Church, or any organized superstition, is to convert or eliminate the non-believers.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#49)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:02:10 AM EST
    OK, here's a half thought out theory. The Church was instrumental in getting Bush elected. Now they have Pope Benedict XVI, who thinks that fundies are not Christian. Of course, the fundies think that Catholics are not Christian, but suspended the issue during the election for their own personal gain. Now there will ensue a fully engaged religious power struggle between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians to beat all power struggles. This is a potent issue in South America too. I'm thinking that the intensification of the Islam problem might be a pawn herein too. Wadaya think?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:13:48 AM EST
    On one hand, some lefties like to argue the Church is dictatorial. With the other, that its pronouncements mean nothing. Thing is, there is a lot of wiggle room for individual conscience and the Church remains a big tent. Sorry that this makes you so uncomfy, Wishful... I have a feeling that it makes folks like Fitz feel uneasy, too. That's why they alway insist only they understand Church doctrine and affairs and then go on to put their own spin on things. JP2 provided moral guidance on the Iraq War, condemning it and arguing that it did not meet the conditions for just war. And Kerry, as far as I know, is still receiving Communion and hasn't been excommunicated by his local Bishop, even though he hasn't changed his position on abortion and euthanasia. In fact, there was a right-wing Catholic guy who went around claiming that Ratzinger's initial pronouncement, when it was first made, ordered Kerry to be denied Communion. He quickly got told by several Church authorities to stick a sock in it. What's disingenous here is that certain partisans of the left are trying to recirculate the same old canard that was discredited a long time ago. I've long ago come to the conclusion that certain folks on the left are the left's own worst enemy.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:28:08 AM EST
    Especially since 80% of our voters are Christian who would not recognize what they believe or see around them in wishful's or Dave's comments. Keep building that Democratic Party base y'all.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#52)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:50:06 AM EST
    What makes me most uncomfortable is the manipulation of the voters by the Church, whether it is through the member's correct or incorrect understanding of the details behind what they are being told. It was clear to me that my former RC Church was complicit in telling its members that to vote for Kerry was a ticket to hell, and conversely a vote for Bush was a moral and Godly vote. Of course, these ideas were relayed indirectly, but barely so. Many believed it, and dutifully voted for Bush, who otherwise would have voted for Kerry. I don't believe it was an accident.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:08:29 AM EST
    Wishful, What is it about this "manipulation of the voters" that differs from that of any other group?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#54)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:21:00 AM EST
    Justpaul, let me know what other groups you would like me to attempt to compare and contrast with the Catholic Church as regards U.S. citizen voter manipulation practices, including its very appropriateness by said groups. I am no expert, but am compelled by virtue of citizenship to consider these issues to the best of my ability. Have you already done this for yur own purposes? Which groups have you compared, and what are your conclusions?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#55)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:26:19 AM EST
    Soc - you asked when the Popes have spoken infalliably. Here's a bit of history about the subject. The only statements of the Pope that are infallible are statements that either reiterate what has always been taught by the Church or are ex cathedra solemn definitions (which can never contradict what has formerly been taught). Infallible statements in the former category are said to exercise the "Universal" or "Constant" Magisterium; infallible statements in the latter category are said to exercise the "Extraordinary" or "Solemn" Magisterium. Statements that exercise neither the Universal Magisterium or the Extraordinary Magisterium are not infallible, and are said to be an exercise of the merely authentic Magisterium. Such teaching is to be obeyed and given religious assent as long as it does not contradict infallible Magisterium and does not harm the faith or lead to sin. The conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree: The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as spiritual head of the Church universal, not merely in his private capacity as a theologian. He must be teaching some doctrine of faith or morals in a manner that explicitly and solemnly defines an issue. His teaching cannot contradict anything the Church has taught officially and previously. It must be evident that he intends to teach with his supreme Apostolic authority. In other words, he must convey his wish to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way. There are well-recognized formulas that are used to express this intention, such as "We declare, decree and define, . . .". It must be clear that the Pope intends to bind the whole Church. Unless the Pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he is assumed to not intend his teaching to be ex cathedra and infallible (unless he is reiterating what has always been taught). There will be an anathema attached to the definition that outlines consequences for not assenting to it. For ex., in Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, there are attached these words, viz: "Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith." The various councils fit that defination. Here's the kicker though. Vativan II can't contradict previous councils, and it doesn't if you go with the original intent of Vatican II. People make the mistake of reading the councils in a vacuum rather than reading them in light of each other. It's not that Vatican II is being abandoned, but rather that the misinterpretation of what was intended by Vatican II is being corrected.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 10:50:18 AM EST
    JCH: This is about the 5th time you have tried to include abortion into a topic when it was not the subject. Scientifically speaking, the status of an embryo in the first trimester is pre-human. Period. Religious dogma does not make it any different. Let's let science have more of an impact on our legislative bodies than mythical tenets. Perhaps if Noah could have lived to be 1963, instead of the 950 years he was supposed to live, he could help us with some of these questions.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:06:34 AM EST
    So Tex, sounds like you know your Church fairly well. Is it safe to assume you're Catholic? Christian, at least? And if so, you'd consider yourself a good one - however that may be defined. I went to your web site, at least the one you linked in your post. I have a question for you. How can you call yourself a good Catholic/Christian and support W and the War. Or does the 'thou shalt not kill' Commandment not apply when we're killing Muslims or brown people? In regards to the Pope, what qualifies as a 'just war'? I don't recall anywhere in my Bible where it says 'Thou shalt not kill EXCEPT under the following circumstances'. How do all you pro-life, pro death penalty, pro war Christians reconcile with yourselves at night, let alone your God?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:09:59 AM EST
    justpaul, wishful, There is no other organization in the world like the Catholic church. This is an organization that is close to 1500 years old whose sole purpose is the enslavement of the world. Period.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:23:47 AM EST
    "Throwing women and doctors in jail and forcing women into back alleys to end their pregnancies is not the answer if you really think abortion should be less frequent." But it is the answer if you're a member of the mainstream GOP.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:27:06 AM EST
    And there's no bigot quite like Dave. Actually and unfortunately, there are far too many leftist lemmings in this world. Tis a shame because they are driving what's little left of the left off the cliff with them.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:34:00 AM EST
    Hey tex, just looked at your website. Didja know Johnny Cash was against the war in Iraq? And did you know Pope Benedict XV was a pacifist? And that Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) is no fan of US rampant materialism and imperialism? And he is adamantly opposed to the death penalty. And exploitation of the poor? Why you think he chose the name Benedict? I have a feeling that folks both on the lemming left and wingnut right are both going to be mighty uncomfy with the new Pope. Tsk-tsk.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 11:58:56 AM EST
    Hmmmmm.....bigot, you say. Well, let's take a look at that. According to the American Heritage Dictionary: Bigot - a person who is intolerant esp. in matters of religion, race or politics Ok. So what is intolerant? Intolerant - not tolerant of others; bigoted That's not much help without defining tolerant. Tolerant - the capacity for or practice of recognizing and respecting the opinions, practices or behavior of others Let's add more definition. Hypocrisy - the professing of virtues and beliefs that one does not posses If my exposing of the hypocrisy of the Church and/or some of it's members makes me a bigot, good for me. Actually, given that the definition of bigot is based in the definition tolerance, I would propose that based on the way Church has treated others whose opinions, practices or beliefs don't match those of the Church, that the Church is a bigot. Reread the definitions, especially tolerance. Now start thinking about the Church, and not just the Catholics but all Judeo/Christian/Muslim MONOTHEISTIC religions have treated those who believe different over the last 5000 years and continuing on today. BTW, for those to whom these things matter - I'm a recovered Catholic.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:08:37 PM EST
    Thanks Dave. It is nice to see that others are challenging the church without name calling, despite the fact that each time the church is criticized there are a group of parishioners that feel the need to heap insults. Kerry should not be allowed communion if it goes against the tenets of the church. If the church were to remain as dogmatic and maintain strict adherence to the scriptures and subsequently demand righteous following, they would be out of business. They should not allow for the liberalization of biblical or canonical law in order to maintain the flow of money in their coffers. But like the televangelists, they do. I like the JW's and the Mormons, they are strict as hell and demand obedience. Don't care for their dogma, but at least their leadership has been consistent with adherence to the strict interpretations of their tenets over the many years.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:28:48 PM EST
    I have to admit to a strong streak of anarchism and don't care much for organizations whose purpose is command and control of its members for no other purpose than command and control of its members - like organized superstition. All the dogma, be it Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, JW, Morman, Protestant, Evangelical, Pagan, etc, all dogma is for control purposes only. It has nothing to do with spirituality. It's all about control. Why are priests celebate? Control. Why do good Catholics eat fish on Friday? Control, and the fact that there once was a Pope whose brother was a fish monger. Just kidding - I think. But then again, it could be true.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:41:26 PM EST
    At least one American bishop (John Michael Botean) officially declared the Iraq war unjust. Link.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:49:21 PM EST
    Isn't ALL war unjust? What justifies killing? More so, to whom are we justifying? Does labeling something a 'just' killing ease our conscience? When we were about to start Gulf Slaughter 2, why didn't the Pope go to Iraq and act as a human sheid? Why didn't the Bishops? Hypocrisy, that's why. Thou shalt not kill - sounds like ALL or NOTHING to me. No such thing as a 'just' killing. 'Vengence is mine' sayeth the Lord, is another one of those Catholic teachings. Who can honestly say that this war, or any war, isn't some form of vengence - generally carried out by the US.

    Dave, Thanks for posting the definitions. Hypocrisy, especially, is a word thrown around here like confetti and almost always ignorantly misused. Now, you say, as a condemnation of the church, that the church believes "Those who are not with us are against us." Then you say "BTW, for those to whom these things matter - I'm a recovered Catholic." meaning you're not/no longer with the church, and, also, that that's a "good" thing. Then you also say "The driving goal, the major purpose, the ONLY purpose of the Church, or any organized superstition, is to convert or eliminate the non-believers." So, since the church is "not with you" or, if you wish, you are no longer "with the church," you believe the church's only purpose is to convert you or eliminate you - you believe the church is "against you." You believe that because the church is not with you it's against you. Should you not, then, condemn yourself?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 12:55:21 PM EST
    Ah u lefties are all goin to hell anyway.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 01:18:13 PM EST
    No, I'm not of the black and white, if you're not with us you're against us world. That's the world of the Church. As to whether or not the church is for me personally or against me personally, I don't particularly care. However, that being said, yes, I believe the church views me as one to be converted. Because I happen to be a white, middle aged male living in the US, it's a little hard for them to eliminate me. Oh, and Ali, Hell and eternal suffering are a Christian invention that I don't believe in. Actually, allow me a moment, since you brought it up. This whole idea of hell and eternal damnation is a bit silly. I mean here's God, supposedly an infinate, eternal being who created man as his children. I'm on the right track so far, no? Now, compared to God, we mere mortals live for an infintessimal moment. He's eternal, us, 70-80 years at best. So now, in a moment shorter than a heartbeat to God, you do something God doesnt' like. God is now going to punish you eternally? Sounds a bit petty to me and way too human. If there's a Divine Being, I expect it to act like a Divine Being, not like a spoiled human.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 02:06:09 PM EST
    Dave, you wrote that you're a recovering Catholic. Does this mean that you therefore think you can't be bigoted against Catholics? If so, what do you say about Hitler who was part Jewish? And I would still insist that saying that the Catholic Church's sole purpose over the past 1500 years has been to enslave the world is evidence enough of your bigotry. Nonetheless, you seem like a good sport who can take it as well as dish it out. Betcha someday when you mature, you'll become a recovering recovering Catholic. Have a good, peaceful life. And concentrate your energies to ensure the defeat of whoever the heirs of Bush will be instead of against Catholics who share many of your political proclivities.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 02:07:55 PM EST
    wishful, The DNC The RNC The NRA The NEA AARP (this is by now means a complete list, but it should give you something to work with). As for whether I have considered this: Yes. My opinion is that all of these groups have a right to present their opinion on political issues to anyone willing to listen. The catholic church also enjoys that right. I only asked because it seemed that perhaps you only object to the church, or maybe religious organizations in general, rather than with anyone who "misrepresents" the situation (I put that in quotes because except for issues of obvious fact, everything is open to interpretation for the sake of argument).

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 03:08:05 PM EST
    Posted by justpaul: "Of course they were trying to influence the election, by influencing the catholic voters. This is no different that TalkLeft or MoveOn.org trying to influence liberal voters." Actually, it is utterly different than that, since TL and MO are both secular. The long history of anti-papist bigotry in the US is/was SPECIFICALLY based on the fear and suspicion that the Church will try to make our elected officials into drones for Church dogma, as opposed to LAW. JFK, the first Catholic elected (Kerry was the second), went well out of his way to assure the public that he would NEVER allow his membership in the Church to overly-influence his actions as president. And he was roundly ripped by you lot for his Catholicism -- I remember. Now the papal ring is on the other finger, and you relish having a Pope on your side. That's just going to harm the Church, but who cares? Bush refused to meet HIS chuch's elders who opposed the illegal, immoral Iraq invasion, entirely. That's not surprising, since he obviously doesn't GO to church, and obviously is as Christian as the lines of cocaine that flew up his nose as recently as his visit to Peru last year -- you know, the one in which he came out for photos with other leaders with his zipper down, and his underwear sticking out. That foolish grin in the AP photograph said volumes. Trying to influence US elections is very bad policy for the Church. Benedict XVI is on an uphill grade, and if he plans on just holding the line in the sand, he gets points for gritting his teeth -- to bad for the Church, which is going to splinter yet more. Respect for our separation of Church from State is not just a good idea -- it is the law. Plenty of Catholics were furious with this attempt to play politics. John Paul was a cleric, who naturally had a political side. Benedict XVI is a politician, who now will play at being the Papa. It's a joke, and Catholics all over the world are waking up to their next 'challenge of faith.' Here's a clue: it's not what Benedict XVI thinks -- it's the man himself.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#73)
    by wishful on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    What the Church did was more akin to blackmail than to expressing an opinion. Essentially, churchgoers were told that it is a grave sin for a politician to support abortion, and it is a grave sin to vote for such a politician. That's more coercive than anything AARP can say to believers. There was deafening silence on what other things were grave sins (there are many), especially with respect to who voters could sinlessly vote for. If the Church would not have lied by omission on the sinful actions taken and supported by Bush as well as the sinful abortion position taken by Kerry, then churchgoers would know that they would be going to hell if they voted for Bush OR Kerry. Now that's a real damned if you do, damned if you don't conundrum. Obviously, in practice, all of the groups you mention have the right to express their political opinions. (Caveat--churches must not cross a certain line if they wish to maintain their tax-free status.) They all certainly did express opinions, and suffered no consequences, save that Bush is the leader of the free world. That just goes to show that some are more effective than others at convincing people that their opinions are the ones upon which voters should act.

    Just for the sake of clarification: None of you people who think it's OK for Ratzinger to tell US Catholic politicians what their policies should be are also whining about Justice Kennedy "applying international law" in interpreting the Constitution. Are you?

    Quaker, Just for the sake of clarification: You aren't saying they are the same thing. Are you?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#76)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:09:00 PM EST
    The Catholic church is a voluntary organization. They have rules. If you don't like the rules, leave. If it's important to you to stay, follow the rules. Kerry broke the rules. Benedict--in his Ratzinger days--had a nuanced discussion of voting for pols who supported abortion (roughly, it shouldn't be the sole reason to vote against but might be the final question). Pols, though, are different. So it applies diffrently. The Catholics want you to be approximately in a state of grace when you take communion, hence the sacrament of confession prior. One of the strictures of confession is that you don't do what the church says is wrong, and when you leave the booth, you aren't planning on doing it again. Horny teenagers might make desperate vows of purity afterwards, whether they keep the vows or not. Pols leave the booth with their plans unchanged, thus not having faithfully completed the sacrament of confession. Thus not being eligible. Not a particularly challenging concept. As a worldly matter, the "vaguely nice" churches where nobody gets too upset about personal sin are shrinking. I attended a church whose intro packet invited all to participate, worship, take advantage of the programs (nearly fifty recovery programs), fellowship and ask for help from any individual or ministry group. But if you are living in behavior of sin, "hold off" on applying for membership. This church can't open the doors wide enough and have caused a local shortage of folding chairs. People are changing their behavior so they don't have to "hold off". The high-demand, "exclusive" churches are exploding.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 05:46:31 PM EST
    "Scientifically speaking, the status of an embryo in the first trimester is pre-human." No scientific theory promulgates this notion. This is a good example of the fact that if something is repeated enough, some will accept it as fact. If you don't believe it, then describe what happens on the 91st day that changes the status of the embryo.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:37:38 PM EST
    JLV Huh? 1. This thread is about the new Pope saying Kerry could be denied communion because of his stand on ABORTION. 2. I didnt introduce it even then - I was answering someone who didnt understand why the Church would jump on Kerry and not President Bush (vis a vis: death penalty and Iraq) 3. I didnt say anything about 1st trimester abortions at all. 4. 55% of the voting population do not believe in your science - start educating. Dave (and others) The word kill in the commandant "Thou shalt not kill" came from the word for murder (taking innocent blood) and not killing in general (self-defense for example; or following the orders of your leaders in war).

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#79)
    by scarshapedstar on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:41:27 PM EST
    To death penalty supporters (ie Republicans): When did you stop receiving communion?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#80)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 06:52:23 PM EST
    SSS- You canít hold up a lapse on one tenet as an excuse to pardon another. You must admit there was more hay to be made over the issue of abortion in the last presidential race than anything else. Both former candidates support the death penalty (save the caveats, Iím aware of them) and both support the past invasion of Iraq.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:05:30 PM EST
    Some brief clarifications: Dave is mad at the church. I recognize it because I've pretty much felt like him since I was, oh, fifteen. As I got older, I realized there was room in religion for some really good nice people who feel compelled to worship together. The Papacy is the head of a Country (the Vatican) with it's own little army if you can believe it as well as a religious leader. His stand on Iraq was intentionally worded very carefully and, as Big Tex pointed out in his accurate summary, the Pope wasn't wearing his infallible hat when he said it. Americans have a hard time understanding that the Catholic church is not a democracy. The Pope is supposedly Jesus' representative on earth. Catholics aren't encouraged to read the bible - their priest as directed by the Vatican "interprets" it for them. Someone said above that: Now there will ensue a fully engaged religious power struggle between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians to beat all power struggles.
    Um, we had that already. For about two hundred years in Europe. The religion of the state followed the religion of the monarchy so there were a lot of conversions and, basically, neighbors killing neighbors in the streets. You see, the protestants took the right to interpret the bible as each man sees fit (in hindsight maybe we could do without some of those interpretations). Regarding Kerry, I was brought up in the strict, old fashioned Catholic way. To not attend mass every week was a sin. To break a commandment was a sin. You are not supposed to TAKE communion if you are in a state of sin unless you go to confession first. Apparently however, there's this new kind of Catholicism where you can be on the pill and go to church a few times a year and saunter right up to the altar for your wafer. It's the ultimate hypocrisy of a religion that is only realizable if one becomes schizophrenic to an extent. Trust me - my parents tried to live "by the book" and had the most horrible relationship and miserable existence you can imagine - and took it all out on us kids (who were, of course, washed and brushed and sitting in the front pew at church each Sunday. It's funny how for a hundred years politicians swore no Catholic could be president (remember Fred?) because they'd be taking orders from the Pope? I wonder where the fear is now that the President is taking orders from Jerry Falwell et al?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:17:59 PM EST
    And JCH, all other politics aside, there are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of children as you read this being beaten, being abused, picking through garbage heaps for dinner or dying for lack of them. If you care about kids and want to do God's work, help them. You don't have to worry about the eggs in my ovaries, whether or not they've been fertilized, whether the fertilized egg has made it through the fallopian tubes, is implanted, splitting and multiplying inside my body. I, like eons of females throughout nature and since the beginning of time reserve the right to bring that child into this hard, cold world or send it right up to heaven. Truthfully, every unborn fetus is a child to it's mother. And truthfully, some children a mother cannot love. I often wonder what I would do as a slave if I was bearing a child of rape - knowing that child was destined for a life of cruelty - ownership. You can bet your scary pamphlets that more than one future slave was sent by their mother. On other issues, I enjoy your points and the discussion. On this, I can't sit by if you're going to keep bringing the "poor babies" up. ' I say, "make every child a wanted child".

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#83)
    by BigTex on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:41:49 PM EST
    It's not my web page, just one that I like. Quaker - yes, I am, though I don't think that the Church is telling them what their policies should be, only that if they act in a manner inconsistent with church teachings then they should not receive Communnion. Dave - Or does the 'thou shalt not kill' Commandment not apply when we're killing Muslims or brown people? I take one hell of an exception to your suggesting I'm a racist. You don't have any proof that it's true. All you can do is speculate, and even then your speculation doesn't pass the sniff test because there are ample other reasons to support the war. Yours was a gratuitous use of making a false claim of racism as a swipe. It's a petty act. Not only is it untrue, it's uncalled for, and downright shameful. But to answer your first question, yes I am Catholic. I once seriousley considered being a Priest. Am I a "good" Catholic? That's not my call. That's God's call. I won't glorify your attempt to paint me as a racist by answering your second one.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 08:45:58 PM EST
    Mfox, I appreciate the compliment, and the heart you obviously have for abused and neglected children. Again, in this thread I didnt bring abortion up: its the subject. I have only responded to others points in this thread where I thought I could cast some light. And my points here have been to try to get people to look at this subject through the eyes of those who think this is abhorant. Not agree. Not change. Just look and understand. Believing the Pope manipulated the issue of abortion to get Bush elected is absurd - it is just painful to the Catholic Church. "Fighting words" so to speak. I think many people posting here are so believing of jlv's "pre-human" stance that they cannot see deeply felt outrage as anything other than political manipulation. Finally, I have tried in a number of threads to make Democratic Party folk understand there is a shift on this subject in the "masses" that are threatening to relegate your party to long-term minority status if you do not rationally adjust some of your policies.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:38:16 PM EST
    Posted by pigwiggle: "You canít hold up a lapse on one tenet as an excuse to pardon another." You can if you say some Hail Mary's. "Both former candidates support the death penalty (save the caveats, Iím aware of them) and both support the past invasion of Iraq." That's a LIE. Kerry specifically stated that he did NOT support the invasion, and that Bush violated his promises to the Senate by invading. Kerry won the election. The Ohio recount was blocked; government officials testify that Triad changed the circuit boards on the tabulation computers and provided false numbers, and voter intimidation and ten to twenty hour waits to vote tell the whole story. This is why the '55% of voters' don't believe in science bit is BUNK. I also had a good laugh about the claim that orthodoxy is on the rise. IF the orthodoxy of the wingers is on the rise, why do they have to STEAL elections and lie about everything they do?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:43:04 PM EST
    The 55% has nothing to do with the election or orthodoxy (although my 1st unsupported, unresearched reaction would be it is)

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#87)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 20, 2005 at 09:44:22 PM EST
    oops or science in general - it was a particular jlv "scientific fact"

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:25:23 AM EST
    Big Tex - You have actually been quite consistent in earlier threads: 1. It's OK for Americans to kill Iraqis. 2. It's not OK for Iraqis to kill Americans. If it doesn't make you a racist, at least it makes you a big hypocrite.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:28:35 AM EST
    Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory. Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder.
    - Bishop John Michael Botean

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:55:29 AM EST
    Perhaps I can answer a few questions here. (there are some good questions in this thread, albeit a lot of thoughtless ones too) (1) Why is Kerry facing the possibility of being denied communion for abortion, but not Bush for the Iraq war? First, as someone above said, Bush is not Catholic. Second, in general a priest may never deny communion to anyone even when he knows they're not in a state of grace. HOWEVER, if there is the possibility of grave scandal (i.e. other people being misled by that person's actions), then the bishop may order his priests to deny communion. Kerry, by being an internationally known Catholic figure and equally publicly supporting abortion, has caused grave scandal and is a danger to many other Catholics. Note: people in a state of sin, like myself most of the time, are supposed to avoid communion on our own initiative like big boys and girls. Third: Catholic teaching is that wars are sometimes just, and the final decision rests with the government of a country. Many governments choose incorrectly, but this guilt rests with them alone. (Shakespeare's Henry V has an excellent discussion of this principle if you're interested) Since the Iraq war was legitimately decided by the US government, it is not a cause of scandal even though it was probably an unjust war - the guilt for its casualties rests with the US Congress, Senate, and Presidency. May God help them if they were not acting sincerely. (2) How can there be a "just" war when the 5th commandment says not to kill? This is an excellent question, and a common one. Two points: (1) The commandment, literally translated from the Hebrew, actually says "Thou shalt not murder". It's understood that it does not forbid killing insects, animals, plants, and aggressors (in self defense). Since one can fight an aggressor in self-defense, one must also be able to fight an attacking nation in defense of one's homeland. This, by the way, has ALWAYS been the understanding of that commandment, from Moses' time to now. (3) Why all this BS about the Church not changing its positions? Hasn't the Church changed on abortion, capital punishment, war, etc.? Actually no. The Church has always forbidden abortion in any and all circumstances on the grounds that it was murder (I can provide quotes from early Church popes on this for anyone interested). The Church has always held that war is usually wrong, but occasionally just. And the Church has always held that capital punishment is justifiable in certain circumstances. If you don't believe that this (cap punishment) is the current Church teaching, pick up a copy of the latest Catechism (published in 1994), paragraph 2266. (4) Is anyone who disagrees with Church teaching excommunicated? No. An honest doubt is an honest doubt; the Church asks people to pray about it. On the other hand, a deliberate refusal to believe something because we might have to change our behaviour...that's a little different. In that case Catholics are supposed to avoid communion until they're back in a state of grace. But again, no priest can deny them communion unless a bishop orders it to avoid some public scandal. (5) Someone said something rather uninformed about Catholics being discouraged from reading Scripture. This is completely false; the contrary is true. In fact all of the things listed above can be found in scripture, including the part about not receiving communion (1 Cor 11:27). Cheers!

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 03:02:13 AM EST
    One more thought.... It's actually pretty funny how the media just doesn't get it regarding the Pope. They keep talking about how a more liberal pope might change this or that item in Church teaching, as though he's just like a President. The deal is, he can't change anything! Even the worst popes (and there've been a few doosies) haven't changed any church doctrine. In the 1970's people thought Pope Paul VI was about to change teaching on contraception and then when he emerged with an encyclical it was exactly in line with everything before it, although more direct. Some things in life are constant. And the media just doesn't get that.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:32:05 AM EST
    Well, my question was and still is: Why is Kerry facing the possibility of being denied communion for abortion, but not Catholic US soldiers for killing Iraqis? The Pope may not have "infallibly" declared the war unjust, but he clearly stated it's NOT just.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:37:45 AM EST
    mar that is the point I brought up earlier. If one is going to call out Catholics for their pro-chocie stance, then the same must be done across the board. If rules are rules then who gets to pick which sins count more then others??

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#94)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:48:54 AM EST
    Mar, et al. You keep missing the point. Church doctrine contains several levels. One level, such as that regarding abortion, is SERIOUS and generates the kind of thing Kerry faced. The idea of Just War is a matter of a doctrine worked out over 1500 years and, although seemingly simple, yields nearly infinite interpretations. The Pope's view of the war in Iraq was his opinion, not church doctrine. It doesn't carry as much weight and does not, as a matter of church practice, carry the weight of the strictures regarding abortion. Now that you know the difference, any further pretense at wondering why the one and not the other will be obviously dishonest.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:01:50 AM EST
    osted by Richard Aubrey: "The Pope's view of the war in Iraq was his opinion, not church doctrine. It doesn't carry as much weight and does not, as a matter of church practice, carry the weight of the strictures regarding abortion." That's odd, since the Pope's opposition to that war is completely of a piece with his laudable qualities that the whole world revered. His opinion on abortion and contraception is roundly despised as parochial, harmful, narrow-minded, and cruel. So 'doctrine' yeah, that's the way the Pharisees like it, eh Dick? "Now that you know the difference, any further pretense at wondering why the one and not the other will be obviously dishonest." You don't know the difference between genocide and abortion, so how would you know what is 'dishonest.' Worse, you advocate racist policy, ignore genocide, while moralizing about abortion. How may Anne Franks did Bush bury in the fallen walls of Fallujah?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#96)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:25:50 AM EST
    Paul. You're on Earth today, partly, so I'll address part of your post. The Pope's qualities, laudable as they were, do not rise to the status of church doctrine. Therefore, his opinion does not bind Catholics as does the doctrine regarding, say, abortion. Got it, now? Good. I knew you understood it. But whether you will continue to pretend confusion in order to confuse the issue is still up in the air.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:52:23 AM EST
    PIL writes - "That's a LIE. Kerry specifically stated that he did NOT support the invasion, and that Bush violated his promises to the Senate by invading." "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 And he did. PIL, you keep making these untrue comments, and you keep getting caught.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#98)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:02:11 AM EST
    PIL- I care little about what Kerry may or may not have said. Speeches donít matter, his voting record does. He voted for the UOF given the provisions therein, end of story.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#99)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:05:55 AM EST
    Isn't the Pope and the Church's stand against capital punishment a magic hat stance? If not, then my following point is not so valid. If so, then it is. The point is not that I think Bush should be denied Communion. That is as absurd as you would say it is. However, the issue is that regular Catholics were informed that they should not vote for someone who supports abortion (Kerry). The REASON that his potential to be denied communion over his abortion stance was shouted from mountaintops was to convince regular voting Catholics that it is a sin to vote for a politician who supports a sinful act (whether the politician is Catholic or not). So if any politician (Bush) supports something that the Church considers (with the hat) a grave sin, then a regular Catholic who votes for that politician is also committing a sin. However, the sinful nature of a vote for Bush (showing that the voter supports gov't sanctiond grave sins) was not mentioned at all, while the sinful nature of voting for Kerry was played up big by bringing the "no communion for a politician-sinner" discussion to the fore. Again, if the Church says execution is not a sin (I thought they said it is), the above point is not as strong, but it still shows a level of manupulation of Catholic voters, by not truthfully explaining the connection of voting with eternal damnation.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#100)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:23:01 AM EST
    Doc Ace, it is prehuman until it can survive on its own, PERIOD. Have science that can prove that otherwise, please share it. Thou Shalt not kill. Pretty broad, what about eating animals? Tell me, if Noah lived 950 years, why not another thousand or two to answer our questions?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#101)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:25:25 AM EST
    JCH: Sorry to exclude you. Please provide scientific evidence that an embryo can survive on its own.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#102)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:28:40 AM EST
    JCH: This post is not about abortion, it is about communion and denial of sacraments over one's belief in abortion. When there is a scientific versus superstition argument over the facts in abortion then I could see the "murder" comments as appropriate to the debate. But that is not what it is about. Besides, you are not a catholic and according to their religion you are going to hell anyway with those of us who are pro-life.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#103)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 07:29:11 AM EST
    err, pro-choice. lol

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#104)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:26:44 AM EST
    Someone said something rather uninformed about Catholics being discouraged from reading Scripture. This is completely false; the contrary is true. In fact all of the things listed above can be found in scripture, including the part about not receiving communion (1 Cor 11:27).
    That was me grad student - appreciate your thoughtful comments. In my experience we read specific parts of the bible that were interpreted for us by church doctrine or the Sunday homily. As a young adult, I found it bizarre that some folks (they were Protestants, it turned out)would actually sit at home, read the bible with their family, memorize parts or all of it and deign to interpret it with respect to their own lives. Perhaps a more progressive Catholic Archdiocese would embrace that at some level, but here in Boston (my dad went to Father Porter for confession!!) we were strictly old school and I was taught that the Bible is the word of God and is interpreted by the Pope for us plebes. You guys leave JCH alone. We actually had a conversation about abortion (which TL has apparently deigned relevant) and didn't verbally annihilate each other. The pro-life, pro-abortion labels are a political designation IMHO. Someone would have to be really f**ked up to want an abortion. I write to you as a child that has been told I wouldn't be here if abortion was legal in 1961. And yet, I wouldn't take that right away from a woman to save myself. Perhaps we should re-label ourselves. Pro-safe abortion and Pro-illegal abortion?

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:40:18 AM EST
    JLV, Who made that the definition? Not the Supreme Court in Roe on the legal side; not the governing board for obstetrics which defines the fetus (at all times) as their patient; and not God. I have never, in any post, called abortion murder. It is a word I very intentionally do not use. I believe pro-life folk who stand in front of abortion clinics and call women going in "murderers" are going to have a discussion with God someday they are not going to enjoy. I do not go there. The Catholic Church does not believe my soul is in danger because I am a non-Catholic christian. Finally, you have already been told by myself and one other that your interpretation of "Thou shalt not kill" is wrong. Why keep bringing it up if you are not going to support your Biblical interpretation? (TL: This is not off thread - because a massive amount of what has been said here is why Kerry on abortion and not Bush on the death penalty and Iraq. How Christians view "Thou Shalt not kill" is key to that.)

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#106)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:49:46 AM EST
    JCH: Sorry about the use of "murder" you have never used that, I thought I saw "kill" on another thread, but you did not use it there either. As it pertains to "thou shalt not kill", why on earth should I take your interpretation of that commandment? Why should I take any clerics interpretation of that commandment? I read it exactly as it states, "thou shalt not kill". It does not say: "Thou shalt not kill another human", "thou shalt not kill your lovers husband" (as david did) "thou shalt not kill dinosaurs" etc. It clearly says, thou shalt not kill. Your interpretation is vastly different than mine. As for the catholic church and their doctrine of belief that there is only one true church, theirs, you will have to take that up with them....

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#107)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 09:49:04 AM EST
    JLV, Thank you. As to interpretation, read the rest of Exodus - you will find examples of capital punishment and killing in war - ordered by God (or at least by Moses, the writer of the commandments, if you dont buy divine inspiration). So, in legal terms, we have the original wording of the law (in a language with separate words for kill and murder) and the actions of the framer (Moses) that bear out which word was meant. Also, we have the body of regulations in Leviticus drawn from the law by the same author which specifies capital punishment as a crime for certain offenses. Even a strict constructionist would accept this. However, I oppose capital punishment because a number of the Commandments and regulations were amended by Jesus (obviously, I have just separated myself from Judaism). I believe "mercy and grace" have superceded "eye for an eye" as the underlying principle in the area of justice. The question of war; and the broader commands to obey your government are beyond my theological abilities. I will not tackle them.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#108)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:18:16 AM EST
    The Catholic Church does not believe my soul is in danger because I am a non-Catholic christian.
    LOL, hate to break the news, JCH, but according to my Catholic upbringing you're going straight to hell. Old Joke: A guy shows up at the Pearly Gates to be met by St. Peter who then ushers him down a long hall of closed doors. "What's behind that door?" asked the man "That's the Lutherans", answered St. Peter. "How about that door" the man asks of another in the hallway "That's the Jehovahs witnesses" replied Peter. "And what about that door there" the man queried about another. "SHHHHHHH!!" Peter said sharply. "That's the Catholics. They think they're the only ones up here!". It took me years to understand why my parents didn't "associate" with some neighbors who shared our street for 30 odd years. The Johnsons, the Gray's, the Roaches and the Mahers were all Protestant! In Irish families IT MATTERS! (The Mahers might have been Jewish, in retrospect, and keeping a low profile). We did not distinguish among "the unsaved".

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#109)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:33:14 AM EST
    Mfox, I will reply knowing I just crossed the line of subject in this post. TL will probably get mad at me again. My Catholic mother-in-law is in two church sponsored Bible studies - as well as sitting around with us as a family (we live together) studying the Bible to see how it applies to our life today. Her daughter is no longer Catholic, was born again and re-baptised; and obviously mom has spoken to her priest about her daughter's future eternal residence. She has been assured that while the Catholics think they have it completely right (and we do not) we have not fallen off the edge into Hell. And while, I think they have some things very wrong; I do not think they have fallen off that edge either. In any case, we both agree that the only vote on that is God's and He doesn't care about our opinion. Forgive me TL

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#110)
    by BigTex on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:39:32 AM EST
    Mar - could you be more of a simpleton? Big Tex - You have actually been quite consistent in earlier threads: 1. It's OK for Americans to kill Iraqis. 2. It's not OK for Iraqis to kill Americans. If it doesn't make you a racist, at least it makes you a big hypocrite. Is it possible for you to have twisted my views more than you have? Shees, don't like a person's views, and resort to attacking them petsonally instead of the marits of their posts. Here let me water it down so that even your and Dave's pea sized brains can understand. 1. It's OK for Americans to kill Iraqis. Not what I said. I said the war was justified. There's a difference between the two. It's okay to kill in self defense. It's okay to invade a country that gasses it's neighbor's troops, gasses it's own citizens, attacks neutral countries in a war (Israel didn't fight in the Gulf war, but they were attacked), violates the end of war ceasefire, has several years and several resolutions to come back into complience with the ceasefire, etc. But I've always said it's not okay to intentionally target civilians. Mistakes happen, but you shouldn't go and target civilians. 2. It's not OK for Iraqis to kill Americans. I dont recall making that statement. I do recall making the statement that terrorists shouldn't target civilians (gee, see a theme here? Let me spell it out incase your two brain cells didn't collide when the info entered your head... don't target civilians) I do recall making statements that I'd rather th eterorists be fighting in Iraq, not in NY or LA or Houston. But that's not a racist position since I'd rather the terrorist be fighting in Paris, Sydney, Johanisburg, London, Kiev, or any other city that isn't in the US. Is that a consistant viewpoint that I'd rather the fighting take palce somewhere else? Yes. Is that racist? No.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#111)
    by BigTex on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    If I crossed the line in that last post, and I probabally did, I'm sorry TL.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#112)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:54:54 AM EST
    JCH: Do you really want to get into a debate using old testament law? DT 21:21 'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.' This for a son that will not listen to his mother or his father and has not responded to punishment. Why do christians pick and choose old testament law to validate their decisions and ignore ones that are obviously outrageous? Thou shalt not kill, unless of course your son is a drunkard. John Kerry should not be allowed to partake in communion if the Catholic law prohibits those from advocating sin from participating. Christians should follow the bible as it is written in its entirety and stop preaching it at their leisure.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#113)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:08:09 AM EST
    JLV, I was not going to quote scripture to prove my point about "Thou shalt not kill" - you just did. God was serious in the Old Testament about sin, and keeping it away from Isreal - deadly serious. You may take that as ridiculous - God took it as having no patience with rebellion and persistent sin. This was the nature of the Mosaic covenant - sin repeatedly you die. The new covenant in Jesus has a different judicial basis cited above - mercy and grace. The Constitution was amended - I am no longer bound by Mosaic law. I have done my best - if this doesn't make sense to you I am sorry. We will just have to agree to disagree

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#114)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:18:38 AM EST
    Oh it makes plenty of sense, JCH. Look up "deliberately obtuse" (among other things...) in the dictionary and you will find a picture of Jlvngstn

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#115)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:32:31 AM EST
    You referred to Leviticus, let's look at Leviticus, as a constructionist. What sayeth you: Death for Fornication A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB) Why use Leviticus in support of a commandment and deny it in direct conflict? Horse: The argument is simple. Perhaps your lack of intellect prohibits you from following it. The bible clearly says "thou shalt not kill" in its ten commandments. Yet clearly, it routinely defines sins that are punishable by execution, not death as in the way all life ends, but execution. As is plainly demonstrated by one of the hundreds of verses in the OT. I would rather be obtuse, than hypocritical and or lacking in intellect, which of course you are both.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#116)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    Jlvngstn I have never witnessed a more pathetic attempt at bigotry than your incessant, mealy-mouthed attempts to undermine the Church. Thats quite the Crusade you've chosen; you should be so proud. What passes for "intellect" in your head is nothing more than deliberate, intentional bigotry cloaked in ignorance.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#117)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:46:45 AM EST
    Horse, you spout off a lot without adding to the discussion, perhaps your parents should have practiced some old testament authority with you. You want to live by biblical law, live by it, but please do not adjust it to fit the changing standards determined by societal influence. When posed with something you do not agree with you respond with anger, hatred and name calling. I would argue that you are not christian at all. I completely took JCH out of context earlier and he did not resort to name calling or insidious remarks, he or she calmly refuted my erroneous allegation and stated reasoning to the effect of his/her argument. JCH would appear to me to more christ like hence the joy of discussion with JCH. Perhaps anger management, ritalin, prozac or a meeting with your clergyman would be in order.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#118)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:56:13 AM EST
    JLV Thank you, but its not me "but Christ in me". I am glad that I am, at least occasionally, walking the talk.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#119)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:58:09 AM EST
    No prob JCF, and again sorry for the false allegation. It is always a pleasure debating with you, you are firm but fair.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#120)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 11:58:29 AM EST
    Jlvngstn I call em as I see em. I have no patience for suffering fools such as yourself. Your deliberately obtuse "points" have been adequately addressed time and time again by JCH and others, yet you show no capacity to learn, process, or even acknowledge the answers he is providing you. So which is it? Are you stupid, ignorant, or intentionally obtuse? My guess: A combination thereof.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#121)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    Horse: Guess I am just stupid. By the way, according to scripture, isn't it Judge Ye not, or am I not interpreting that correctly. Really, your anger is a problem, speaking to your clergy was a recommendation that I surely hope you follow through with. Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." I cor - 14:34-35 New testament order, do you follow that one????

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#122)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:19:12 PM EST
    Jlvngstn Guess I am just stupid. No, there's more to it than that, but for now I'm just glad to see we've reached an understanding ;-)

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:26:07 PM EST
    Me too horse, good luck with counseling.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#124)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 12:49:45 PM EST
    TL Officially behaving

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#125)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:22:01 PM EST
    Thou shalt not MURDER, jlv. If "it" is "prehuman" (whatever that means) before it can survive on its own, are all the preemies "prehuman"? jlv, the zygote contains the 46 chromosomes of a human being. It doesn't always result in a person (e.g., miscarriage), but, with all due respect, just who are you to decide which ones get to live and which ones don't? Mar, Iraqis don't have to take on the US military; aborted fetuses have no choice bu to die.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#126)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 01:53:45 PM EST
    Is destroying a single cell or a cluster of cells (an embryo) such a big deal? Think about the 20 million cells you destroy the next time you tie a knot to your condom. People lose plenty of living cells all the time through hairs, skin fragments, all sorts of slime, etc. A menstruation or good nose bleed means killing thousands of living cells, some of which could even grow to become a new person when raised in the right conditions: just like a fertilized egg in a woman. It makes sense to try to put this choice of limit at some natural event, and fertilization of the egg is such a limit. However, from a scientific point of view, virtually nothing changes at this point that puts the fertilized and developing egg in a different class as other cells of our bodies. Evolution does not and cannot say anything about the morality of abortion, just as astronomy says nothing about the morality of sending Earthlings into outer space, because the theories of natural sciences simply do not deal with morality. Biological knowledge may aid in making our decision regarding abortion, together with many personal and religious ones. However, the scientific argument that life starts at conception is not a valid one. Pim Edelaar What gives you the right to determine which cells should live?

    "Quaker, Just for the sake of clarification: You aren't saying they are the same thing. Are you?" Your question is rhetorical, isn't it? Of course I'm saying they're the same. It hasn't been that many years ago that a Catholic ran for President. His critics worried that the foreign Pope would have too much authority to determine American public policy. Nowadays, the Pope's influence is something certain folks are enthusiastic about. They don't mind a foreign religious official trying to influence American public policy, as long as that muscle is used in ways they like. On the other hand, when Justice Kennedy examines worldwide criminal justice practices to interpret the meaning of "cruel and unusual"--a phrase used but not defined in our Constitution--some of those same folks are ready to run the old boy (nominated by St. Reagan) out of town on a rail. Indeed they're the same. Except for the positions taken by so-called conservatives.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#128)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 02:22:47 PM EST
    justpaul, you said,
    The church may also take the view that it can only fight so many battles at once, and given the choice between what it sees as the murder of innocents and an unjust war against a murderous regime, it chose to focus on the former.
    I think that in this case, Ratzinger specifically and forcefully spoke out against relativism. It must be something else at play.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#129)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 04:51:56 PM EST
    jlv, you're obfuscating. A fertilized egg, for the most part, results in a human being, just as surely as the sunrise follows the dawn. As I was saying, who are you...

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#130)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:21:40 PM EST
    Wishful, Relativism, as framed by the Pope, is not choosing what to fight over at a given moment; but holding different moral positions depending on, classicly, how it affects you

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#131)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:31:37 PM EST
    JCH, my point exactly.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#132)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 05:51:18 PM EST
    To be clear, there was absolutely no reason for the Church to choose between telling its members all of the factors that are considered sinful in their voting choices, and telling them about only one factor that is sinful wrt voting. It is a falsehood to say that the Church was forced to choose what to fight over, because they weren't the ones responsible for the individual choices made in the voting booths by the faithful. The choice of the church was whether or not to educate its members regarding the theology of voting. They chose to forgo guiding their flock with integrity, and instead decided to manipulate them by leading them to believe that a vote for Kerry was a sin while a vote for Bush was not. Anyone with children can see through this type of manipulation, and knows how easy it is tp perpetrate on those who trust you unconditionally. The Church abdicated its responsibility to look after the souls of the congregants with honest teaching. If it justified its decision to itself using the argument postulated by justpaul, then they clearly used relativism.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#133)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:11:16 PM EST
    I would agree - if the now Pope had reason to believe that the Church did not understand the position (if there was one - that seems to be in the air) on Iraq and the death penalty (no personal knowledge - have heard two different things here). It was also a clarification on Church policy requested from his committee for review - much like the Supreme Court issues rulings. Timed to screw up Kerry - maybe. I never said religious folks didnt have political axes to grind. Mentioning one and not the other is just not the "relativism" that the new Pope was talking about.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#134)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:19:51 PM EST
    Quaker - Indeed. For you youngsters, it was JFK who, to quell the attacks by (mostly) Baptist ministers, announced that he would not let the Pope intervene in US policy. I stand in awe at the knowledge and foresight of those ministers. They knew more than we gave the credit for. Of course before we worry too much about the Pope, we might pause and consider the impact of our SC using world opinion and foreign law in deciding what happens in the US. It appears that the barbarians are not only at the gate, they are telling us who the barbarians are.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#135)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 06:24:45 PM EST
    Would it be selective enforcement - I might go with that

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#136)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:05:27 PM EST
    Wishful. Got any sermon transcripts where priests tell the faithful that voting for Kerry is a sin? That would get your 501c3 lifted, unless you were a black minister telling the folks to vote for Kerry.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#137)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:39:55 PM EST
    Richard, The priest at the Catholic Church that I don't go to regularly (lapsed, but old traditions die hard) said that voting for a politician that supports abortion in the course of his gov service is a grave sin for the voter. He didn't mention Kerry by name. I don't have a Xscript--I never saw any from this church. I can try to look up any such directives by other Catholic leaders and get back to you. If you find it before I do, let me know.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#138)
    by wishful on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 08:52:12 PM EST
    Richard, google "Is it a sin to vote for a politician who supports abortion?" You will get tons of instruction saying that it is a grave sin, and some are more nuanced than others. As a matter of fact, as a result of researching your question, I have come to the personal conclusion that the Church used the abortion issue without integrity to influence the election. I still don't understand their benefit in Bush's re-election and/or Kerry's defeat. In keeping with this post, I believe that the new Pope was willfully instrumental in the dishonest effort. Just a personal opinion based on preponderance of the evidence, but not beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#139)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 21, 2005 at 10:23:04 PM EST
    Wishful Their benefit doesn't have to extend beyond lowering the number of politicians that support abortion; but it appears most of the buzz was caused by this guy who filed the heresy complaint against Kerry, and then said he had been excommunicated - which is refuted here. I find nothing that says Rome said anything.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#140)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 05:05:08 AM EST
    Wishful, if you're accurate, those pronouncements conflict with Vatican statements.

    Re: New Pope Ordered Kerry Be Denied Communion (none / 0) (#141)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 22, 2005 at 08:01:19 AM EST
    By putting in the whole paragraph that TL quoted I found this: the Ratzinger memo was sent to the US Catholic bishops last Juneish - and leaked by an Italian newspaper. More important if you look at full text of memo your discover that capital punishment and war were included in the text. It also covers voting for a politician who is in favor of abortion (key words: precisely because of).