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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:18:15 AM EST
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One last open thread for the week as I catch up. Thanks again, TChris.

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    Friday Open Thread | 81 comments (81 topical)
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by txpublicdefender on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:59:42 AM EST
    Mark DeLapaz, one of the key Dallas narcotics officers involved in the massive fake drug scandal here, was convicted yesterday of lying in an affidavit for a search warrant which led to one of his numerous false arrests. The punishment phase of the trial starts today. He could get probation or anywhere from 2 to 10 years in prison. He still faces 13 other felony charges of tampering with physical evidence. While a few other officers and confidential informants are also charged in the case, no prosecutors have ever been charged with a crime or disciplined by the bar, despite evidence that some knew that the CIs were not reliable, and still "negotiated" guilty pleas from defendants who faced life sentences if they were convicted at trial.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:26:01 AM EST
    Do any of you know what is happeing to our oil in the future? got any ideas how much gas will go up? or what life will be like in 5 yr? and how many jobs will bush sell off to other nations? what about homes? and do any of you understand where bush and business will go with this war on terror? "hey people buy land you will need it". and by the way love is not all you need in our new third world ideals.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:26:26 AM EST
    Firday?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:46:12 AM EST
    If anyone cares, Frank Perdue, the chicken king has died. ?????? Oh, I guess not.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 08:05:41 AM EST
    Chickens everywhere today celebrate: Frank Perdue, the "little Eichmann" of industrial chicken slaughter, has died.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:00:35 AM EST
    ouch salad dressing is a step up on the messy scale from a pie to the face. Pat Buchanan Doused With Salad Dressing

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:05:53 AM EST
    The RAW Story says Rumor at CNN The POPe has Died

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by BigTex on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:24:08 AM EST
    Seems like a time fer death. It'll be a dark day when th' Pontiff dies. Korematsu (as in Korematsu v. United States) also died yesterday. That finally closes what was perhaps the ugliest chapter in our history as a nation. May we never repeat such a henious mistake.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:26:15 AM EST
    In another (if subtler) April Fools' joke, Wolfowitz confirmed as World Bank head....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:28:13 AM EST
    And it's reported Henry Kissinger underwent a 'heart procedure', and doctors were astounded to find one.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:35:21 AM EST
    I've been as tough a critic of the Bush administration as anyone, but sometimes you have to give credit where credit is due. I never thought I'd see the day, but this press release says it all: "President Bush Signs Act of Contrition"

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 09:49:41 AM EST
    Tex: Fill me in--that's a name I haven't heard before.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:00:52 AM EST
    It'll be a dark day when th' Pontiff dies. So some guy in funny hat and a dress that lives across the ocean and heads an organization that promotes and protects child molestors might have died. A man who endorses suppression of women and homosexuals,who is theoretically celibate but insists on telling the world what sexual methods and contraception they are allowed? That guy? The one who lives in a huge mansion, wears jewels and precious metals yet supposedly believes in the teachings of christ?
    "Then Jesus said to his disciples, I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.(Matt 19:23). Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt 19:24)
    I don't wish him dead, I don't wish anybody dead, ('course the day is early;-), but if he and all the other clerics in the world upped an disappeared, the world would be, on the whole, a better place. Isn't it about time people got over these superstitions and started thinking for themselves?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:07:02 AM EST
    Hey TL, howzabout blocking Blaghdaddy? I get enough spam in my mailbox.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:07:15 AM EST
    If they tried to start the Catholic Church today Fox News would brand them a cult and ridicule the men in dresses Could you imagine the interview with jesus or paul

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:19:01 AM EST
    Just in: Pre-war doubts on Iraq WMD were dismissed

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:33:33 AM EST
    Posted by: mfox on March 31, 2005 12:39 PM "Sarcastic one, [snip]That would imply, sarcastic that you feel progressive liberals are predjudiced against religious folks and don't want more of them. Do you really, really think this?" Um, did you read the comments above?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    Isn't it about time people got over these superstitions and started thinking for themselves? It would probably make for a wonderful world. It seems, people just replace their old superstitions, with new ones. I’m sure I’m guilty of this. But, how do you avoid it, short of spending all your time trying to disprove everything you believe?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:35:39 AM EST
    btw, the rumors are true. May he rest in peace.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:39:43 AM EST
    I was responding to something you said, sarcastic - on a different thread I thought. If I misunderstood your implication, apologies.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    Another good one... BBC asks long-dead Bob Marley for interview

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:50:02 AM EST
    mfox, no applogies necessary. However, I guess we can all conclude from the posts from the "progressive liberals" on this site that it is true that they are prejudiced against religious folks.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 10:59:53 AM EST
    Um, that would be a rather hasty conclusion, given that some of the "progressive liberals" here (me, for instance) are religious. In the interest of bringing some clarity for those away from TV that don't care for unverifiable "news" on the net (the major online news sites don't seem to have it yet), here's a link to the stories that the Pope has died: link I expect the major online sites will have it soon and there will be an official announcement.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:00:50 AM EST
    For some reason, that link didn't work: link

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:02:23 AM EST
    And, of course, immediately after I post that, CNN.com has a "Developing Story" banner that the Vatican has denied the Italian media reports that the pope has died.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:03:17 AM EST
    btw, again. Apparently the rumors of the Pope's demise were wrong. They say his electrocardiogram went flat briefly, but is beating again.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by roy on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:03:54 AM EST
    You'd think God would know better than to have the Pope at death's door on April Fool's.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    Sailor, I am with ya 100%. People get freaked out when someone points out the ridiculousness of religion and I for one am not disturbed or saddened by the popes death. The people on tv throwing fits and crying and carrying on quite frankly frighten me. One person every 2 seconds needlessly dies from starvation, water borne diseases or AIDS. That saddens me. I don't recall the pope ever expressing outrage over the molestations and rapes in the church and that saddens me. Bill Gates recently gave 23 Billion dollars to charity or 54% of his net worth. He is a hero and someone that truly deserves admiration. Or any of the 50 on the Business Week top Philanthropist list. I say we honor people for their generosity and assistance not moral pontification.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:07:55 AM EST
    cmdicely, It would appear that you are in the minority.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:15:01 AM EST
    I'm not prejudiced against religious folks, heck, I am one. But I don't care for intolerant bastards who stand in the way of my radical gay agenda: which is to be left alone to raise my kids, run my business, love my boyfriend (in private), and worship in my own way without abuse and botheration from folks abusing the name of Jesus (insert favorite saviour as needed.) And I will fight the imposition of a Fundamentalist Theocracy with every fiber of my not inconsiderable being.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:25:23 AM EST
    the legacy of the the recent fight over the right to die is that while over 70% of Americans want to make this decision privately --because of the right wing's need for an organizing tool people will have to waste valuable time and money to maintain the right to die with dignity Because of the grandstanding and frankly lying by people like Nancy Grace on what it is like to die as Mrs. Schiavo there has not been an honest discussion and now we are stuck with dishonest legislation in a number of states already. The feudal south is already cranked up. Wisconsin already allows medical personal to deny your wishes if it goes against THEIR values. Please contact your state legislators and let them know -if the require written consent for right to die then they must make the forms available in the DMV, REgistar of Voters and other public places. They must require all public health care agencies to require that their clients fill them out. If they are required --then the requirement should be enforced. Everyone should have one --when you get a tx form you get a right to die form.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:47:47 AM EST
    One of the problems in communication between the 'left' and the 'right' is trying to define everyone in that group by one person's beliefs. I am not a 'progressive liberal', I am a free thinking human being who has, thru life experience and study, examined the evidence and come to my own conclusions. Sometimes these conclusions would be considered liberal, radical, libertarian or conservative, but they are mine. BTW, I went to several different churches in my youth, by my choice. I've felt the brotherhood, and seen some good works. I used to be much more tolerant of religions, but a lot of religions have become increasingly intolerant of other viewpoints. To the point of preaching hate, intolerance and death. Insisting that all the folks that sarcastic labels ProgLibs share my views is a cheap troll move, and not conducive to, or worthy of, debate. I have my own opinions, and I come by them honestly, no matter how much you might disagree. Try debating the points, and not insulting the writer. Soldier - I know what you mean, but that doesn't mean you have to drink the kool-aid after you see the people in line in front of you die.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:54:30 AM EST
    Announcing the 1st Monthly TalkLeft Flaming Liberal Awards! The following Liberals are ranked from least Flaming to Inferno, based on the content of their posts during the month of March, 2005. And without further ado, the winners are: 10. ppj 9. glanton 8. mfox 7. Kdog 6. deuce The top five are tough. First, for his tireless efforts to defend the morally bankrupt, murderous Michael Shivo, and his endless petitioning for the death of an innocent, I proudly present you: 5. What a Load Next, for his unabashed hatred of all things religous, and wishing death upon the Pope during this dark hour: 4. Sailor He may have taken the crown, had it not been for his recent, surprising defense of the Reverend Jackson. Congratulations Flaming Liberal #3: 3. Paul in LA And the runner up, for his endless bashing of Bush, the Democrat Party, and all manner of civil discourse, I present to you: 2. Soccerdad And the high honor of greatest Flaming Liberal: For his thoughtful, insightful, intelligent debate of the major issues of the day, please honor: 1. Jondee Congratulations Jondee, you may step forward and claim your Burger King crown. As for the runners up; thanks for playing!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 11:57:58 AM EST
    Again Sailor well said. I know tons of Left Christians and Right Christians who essentially are firm in their religious beliefs but polar opposites in their political beliefs. I too was brought up in a religious environment and studied briefly to be a minister. I was groomed to be the youth minister in a church and after years of biblical study came to the conclusion that science over faith was more in tune with my actual beliefs. I do not begrudge christians as a whole, just the ones that are extremists, just like I feel about the gpeace folks that cross the line with their protest activities. The catholic church and charities make many contributions to our society and that is great. But it seems to me that some of the greatest contributions come from ordinary people not obsessed with religiion who simply believe in basic humanitarian principles. The pope in my book is less a person than all 50 on the Business Week top philanthropists. That of course will enrage some people and were I a public figure would probably amount to death threats. It is nice to have some anonymity from the extremists...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:07:25 PM EST
    Unless Chris Rock's post is an April Fool's joke --rather rude to use TL's name without express permission and you have added to the Schiavo case for a lawsuit against the media for spreading lies tha have led to his need for an armed guard. Lin Wood collected huge awards for the Ramsey's because of inflamatory language such as yours.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:10:00 PM EST
    I'd rather be a flaming liberal than a flaming as-hol-

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:18:26 PM EST
    Insisting that all the folks that sarcastic labels ProgLibs share my views is a cheap troll move, and not conducive to, or worthy of, debate. You are too funny for words. I have my own opinions, and I come by them honestly, no matter how much you might disagree. Try debating the points, and not insulting the writer. Again you are too funny for words. Where did I insult you? Ok hotshot, fyi, the pope is not rich. In fact, he owns essentially nothing. Some clothes maybe, some books, but essentially nothing. One of the problems in communication between the 'left' and the 'right' is trying to define everyone in that group by one person's beliefs. As a wise man once said, you can't be wise if you can't generalize.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 12:42:02 PM EST
    Thanks for the compliment, Chris Rock. Too bad you're not as funny as your moniker implies. Do you have any evidence that PPJ is any kind of liberal??? Also, you've left out TChris and Jeralyn on your list. Where do they fit in?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    I don't recall the pope ever expressing outrage over the molestations and rapes in the church and that saddens me.
    Well, yeah, paying that little attention to major events but then commenting on them publicly should sadden you. Or, alternatively, having a serious memory problem, that should also sadden you. Either way.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:35:04 PM EST
    JLV: You hit at the core of my opposition to judeo-christian religeons, the denial of scientific fact in the name of faith. You can have faith without stabbing out your eyes.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    This just in:
    Army Captain Rogelio Maynulet had faced up to 10 years in jail after a court martial at a U.S. army base in Wiesbaden, Germany, found him guilty of assault with intent to commit voluntary manslaughter.
    "He was sentenced with dismissal from the United States Army ... there will be no confinement time," a military spokesman said.


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 01:59:16 PM EST
    My gift to you all for the weekend: The origin of April Fool's Day (hat tip to Zoe Kentucky at Demagogue)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:02:53 PM EST
    JLV: You hit at the core of my opposition to judeo-christian religeons, the denial of scientific fact in the name of faith. You can have faith without stabbing out your eyes.
    Folks, cmon. In just one thread I've seen Matthew quoted by someone who doesn't understand what it means, a bunch of weird stuff about the Pope, and now this. You do not want to have a chat about science vs religion - all major advances I've seen in the last 10 years affirm, not attack, my belief in the Bible. The scientific method was created by folks who expected to find a rational, understandable universe because it was created and not random. Antony Flew, one of the pillars of atheism is reassessing his position about creation because of DNA. If you want to believe that christians have checked their brains at the door - go ahead - but it is you, in that, who is operating by superstition and not science

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by desertswine on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:16:44 PM EST
    Will someone please pull Blaghdaddy's feeding tube. [Ed. He is now limited to four comments a day and they must be a comment, not just a plug for his blog.]

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:27:35 PM EST
    That would be cruel and inhumane to pull Blaghdaddy's feeding tube. Better and quicker to drop Chris Rock on his head from a great height. [Ed. He's been banned. All he did was post plugs for his blog.]

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:30:41 PM EST
    JCH: why would you say "folks come on" as if this thread were full of christian bashing or something. A couple of us have expressed beliefs that are in contrast, not demeaning, not bashing just not similar to yours. What atheist or agnostic cares if another atheist or agnost changes his/her mind? I don't know the person you mention nor do I care if he/she "becomes a believer". No atheist speaks for me. I do not carry a card that says atheist. Nor do I attend atheist groups. My 15 yr old is a christian because when he wanted to go to church i neither encouraged nor bashed the church. He will have to come to conclusions on his own relative to faith. How many christians give their kids the option to attend church? I don't know the answer to that question but am curious. I believe in evolution. I believe that I care more about the 30,000 kids dying every day due to starvation and disease is far more pressing than the pope's health. ]I believe that many philanthropists in fact some of the most giving people in the world are not practicing in religion. They should be recognized and admired and are the best role models in the world.... So as the pope passes, remember that 30,000 people have died today as result of malnutrition, and let's keep it in perspective.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:33:43 PM EST
    it is you, in that, who is operating by superstition and not science
    Until the ID community can provide a single theory that is verifiable according to the scientific method (not by what you WANT the scientific method to be) I'll continue to relegate to the status of superstition. The overwhelming majority of Molecular Biologists reject ID, and as it's their field of expertise, that's good enough for me. Did Darwin have the whole answer? No. But it looks like he had a good chunk of it, as the field of Molecular Biology seems to bear out, so far as this layman can determine. I choose the lens of logic, science, and reason to view the world. You prefer faith. There's room for both. Just don't bring non-science into the science classroom. Leave that where it belongs, in the fields of philosophy and theology.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 02:59:26 PM EST
    One last post for the day, as it's the open thread: Ran across this, and couldn't resist sharing. CLAIM: "If you've got a good idea [about Social Security], we expect you to be at the table, we expect you to bring it forward." - President Bush echoing GOP ads that claim Democrats haven't offered any Social Security proposals, 3/30/05 FACT: Democrats have already brought forward a number of proposals today and in the past. For instance, Rep. David Obey (D-WI) has a plan endorsed by former Social Security Commissioner Robert Ball that would use the estate tax to fix the shortfall. Rep. Martin Sabo (D-MN) also has a proposal he introduced almost a month ago. Before that, Reps. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) and Jerry Nadler (D-NY) each had different proposals. The person who has not introduced a concrete proposal is President Bush.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:21:38 PM EST
    Relax now, TL is full of christian bashing - but the cmon was not to that but to the lack of knowledge involved. As Mao Tse-Tung said: "No investigation, no right to speak". With your background, I am not including you in that statement. Someday perhaps we can have a little chat about intelligent design vs. creation - I think your science may be in worse shape than mine. Neither is standing on the field unbloodied. As to the Pope, I'm an evangelical not a catholic. I feel for those millions who a about to lose their spiritual leader, but he is not mine. He certainly has more impact on a world level than Terri Schiavo (I know - I am an elitest now) - and she certainly took some attention away from the 30000 kids. On a logical level, those 30000 kids are going to die of starvation and disease whether you or I are christian or not, and certainly christianity is not the cause of that death - or the Pope. You forgot to add the 46,000,000 abortions each year worldwide (or 126,00 per day). What does that mean to you? If my faith couldn't take the weak, silly things said about it in these pages I would be in trouble.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:27:42 PM EST
    Until the ID community can provide a single theory that is verifiable according to the scientific method (not by what you WANT the scientific method to be) I'll continue to relegate to the status of superstition.
    Good review of the good science in Behe's: Darwin's Black Box - read it and get back to me.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 03:32:46 PM EST
    incidentally, my quote was saying that those who believe christians check their brains at the door do that (believe christians check their brains by the door) largely by superstition (myth, etc) - it had nothing to do with Creation vs. Evolution.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 04:12:40 PM EST
    Dr. Ace you would be the example of multiple flamings

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:20:52 PM EST
    mfox, four years in the U.S. Navy and three more in civil service, working for the Navy. No combat experience though, unless you count fighting bureaucrats.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:22:42 PM EST
    It's HAPPY HOUR! I'm off to the G spot to fondle some nurses. What a country. By the way, Mercury is in retrograde. Thus the craziness lately. Festival! Festival!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Walter on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:25:22 PM EST
    Ahmed Chalabi.....still a spy for Iran Rishard Perle.....still a spy for Israel

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by BigTex on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:40:44 PM EST
    Korematsu v. United States was the case that declared the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII was Constitutional. Korematsu was an interned Japanese American who by all evidence was loyal to the United States. Salor - you should show a little respect for all that the Pope has achieved. This is the same man who worked tirelessley to heal the divisions between religions. Not only Christian denominations, but also inter-religous dialogue. This is the man who once supported captiol punishment, but then later decried it. This is the man who said abortion was wrong, but also said as a consiquence of not allowing abortion we have a duty to help mothers. This is the man who said that contraception is wrong, but also said that it is a greater evil to not use contraception if you know you aren't ready to become a parent and are going to have sex anyway. This is the man who said that although he had changed his mind regarding the death penalty said that believers must consider all aspects of captiol punishment and decide if they decry it, or feel like they must support it based on the merits of the punishment as they see it. That's an instruction to think about the issue and come to your own conclusion. The list could go on, but you get the idea... you are being overly simplistic in your judgment of him and Catholics in general. Jlivingston - I don't recall the pope ever expressing outrage over the molestations and rapes in the church and that saddens me. He did, but it wasn't front page news because that's not newsworthy. He's supposed to be opposed to rape et al. Bill - you seem to misunderstand the whole concept of a religious denomination. There are so many different religions and denominations on religions because of the differences in beliefs. If you want to be with your boyfriend then that's your call, and between you two and God. However, that doesn't mean that the Chruch has to aprove of it. If you want a religion that doesn't condemn homosexuality, look around you can find some. He's not fighting to impose it on others, he's only fighting to propogate the faith, which has an indirect efect of what you suggest.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 05:51:10 PM EST
    I'm familiar with Bebe's Darwins Black Box. Lots of Post Hoc, Ergo propter Hoc stuff in there. Face it, ID relies upon the central tenant of "irreducable complexity", which is an assumption, not something provable by the scientific method. Thus, it is not science. I take it you describe it as "good" science, because you agree with it. I reject it because it is not verifiable by the scientific method, the very foundation of science. As I said before, I choose the lens of Science, Logic, and Reason to view the world. You choose faith. That's fine by me. There's room for both. Just keep philosophy and theology out of science classes.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:11:28 PM EST
    Evolution is not science. Where's the Missing Link, Havelock? If we can dig up hundreds of quarter-size Trilobytes from Billions of years ago, why can't we find one single COMPLETE SKELETON of the missing link? Why can't we find tens, dozens, hundreds of them? Face it, Havelock. Evolution requires just as much Faith in Science as ID does in God.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:16:18 PM EST
    There is no verification for natural selection or any other naturalistic method for the spontaneous assumption of life in the first living cell - but you have no problem with that? Or with DNA being necessary for that cell to pass on its information to the next cell - and DNA even in a simple one cell form being amazingly complex. All science starts as scientific "assumption" - irreducible complexity is in early stages. Even Darwin said that if you found a complex form that could not have arrived by small steps from less complex forms than his theory fell. You live on a massive dose of faith in your belief in this "science" that has NO scientific proof

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:25:04 PM EST
    A certain type of creationist is willing to admit to the descent of species or whatever you call it while insisting that life first rose from unlife by divine spark. Give me the cosmology, they say, and you can have evolution. The two are actually separate issues, and don't go together well. To this point, we have no way of making life from unlife, no protolife which becomes life with the addition of one more molecule floating around. In the Fifties, there was an experiment which, if I recall, might have won the Nobel, demonstrating that under the right circumstances, which were presumed to replicate the primordial soup of pre-life Earth, amino acids could be formed. It was the stuff of high school science fairs when I was in high school. I haven't heard it's gone any further. And I believe there's some idea that primordial, pre-life Earth was not what the experiment presumed. It is possible we'll be able to make life from unlife, or at least theoretically describe the process, but not yet. Therefore, that it happened by accident is a matter of faith. There is a corollary to the idea that it happened by accident. That means, given time, it cannot not happen. It must happen. Therefore, there must be life on at least some other planets. If there is not, then something is holding it down. Or bringing us up.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:39:05 PM EST
    Did I say I supported Darwin's view of evolution? No. I did say he had a chunk of the truth. Not the whole thing. Dr. Obvious- You state Darwinian evolution requires as much faith as creationism. Possibly it does. I'm no strict Darwinian, nor do I speak for them. JHCFLeetguy- Again, as I said, we view the world through different lenses. Where you claim "there is no proof", I see a thriving (except where limited by superstition) field of scientific endeavour in molecular biology, which is (gasp) based on Darwinian ideals. Let's just leave Philosophy and Theology in there own respective disciplines, and not try to disguise them as "science".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Adept Havelock on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 06:43:12 PM EST
    BTW- No verification for "Natural Selection"? Tell that to a hunter, let alone a scientist. In the wild, the strong survive to reproduce, often the weak do not. This is the essence of "natural selection".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimcee on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 07:54:03 PM EST
    Sad to see that there are some out there that refuse to see the greatness of Pope John Paul. He has been a pillar of strength against communism and has expressed tolerence in regards to other faiths. The molestation scandles are a particularly N. American phenomenom and should have been taken care of by the N. American church but they ended up being all too human and that was possibly the biggest mistake this pope has made. Between the Pope, Reagan, Solstynezen(sp?) and Lech Welenca(sp?) they brought down the Iron Curtain which was no small feat, He belongs in the pantheon of the greatest leaders of the 20th century. Overall a great man. PS, I am not a Catholic but I recognise greatness when I see it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 01, 2005 at 08:03:34 PM EST
    No verification for "Natural Selection"?
    There is no verification for natural selection or any other naturalistic method for the spontaneous assumption of life in the first living cell
    Actually, Mr. Aubrey got my point. Natural selection requires a living thing to pass its improved self on to its offspring. That only occurs in a living cell - and cannot explain how a living cell came to be in first place. The second difficulty, is that DNA is the most densely packed piece of information on the planet - even in the simplest one cell life form. There is no doubt that natural selection exists in what I have heard called microevolution - changes or improvements within a species. Proof massive. The difficulty is how to explain the immense diversity of species - macroevolution. This evolution of one species to another has never been duplicated; and has never been observed. To talk about us, the progenitor of homo sapien's DNA has been examined and it could not have mated with homo sapien. Hence the need for the "missing link" but not just in humans but in every form on the planet. The current observable data says that every species on this planet appeared instantaneously, fully formed, and stable. So macroevolution rests on a scientific assumption that is unprovable scientifically and unobserved in nature. But you can tell my 12 year old that this scientific, unproven assusmption is science - and that my assumption of intelligent design is theology. Sorry. Your scientific lens has been trained to ignore any non-natural explanation (for good reason - we should always be digging deeper to understand this world better). Just do not delude yourself that all of us insane christians left our brains at the door.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 05:49:12 AM EST
    JCH: As an evangelical, is the path to heaven only through christ and acceptance of christ, and catholics who do not accept christ as their savior are going to hell? that is the most common christian belief, wondering if it is yours also. Those making the argument about the popes "greatness" with "he stood strong against communism" and child abuse is a north american problem are living in supreme denial. Joe McCarthy stood strong against communism, he was a putz....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 06:47:41 AM EST
    Priest molestors not a North American problem Around the world, clerical sex abuse takes a toll By Brian Whitmore, Globe Correspondent and Charles M. Sennott, Globe Staff, 12/14/2002 ''This is by no means just an American problem,'' said Colm O'Gorman, director of One In Four, a United Kingdom- and Ireland-based organization that assists sexual abuse victims. ''It is not about one man or one country, it is about an institution.'' I guess you were out having a beer and a cigar when fcts were being discussed.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 07:32:36 AM EST
    For those of you who missed it the first time (due to deletion) here it is again for your enjoyment... Load: "I'd rather be a flaming liberal than a flaming as-hol-" Ace:" Don't despair, Load. It is possible to be both." Load: "Dr. Ace you would be the example of multiple flamings" Ace: Har! (What happened Che? Did you get thrown out of the girlie bar?)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:29:32 AM EST
    Ace, Do you have to type so loud?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:35:38 AM EST
    As an evangelical, is the path to heaven only through christ and acceptance of christ, and catholics who do not accept christ as their savior are going to hell? that is the most common christian belief, wondering if it is yours also.
    Short answer no. long answer the critique of Catholicism is that they are legalistic (works not faith) to the point of removing the Gospel ("Good News") from their faithful. My mother-in-law is catholic and lives with us - and I know the women loves Jesus Christ and is saved - but she does not believe she is assured of salvation, and lives a life of guilt attempting to do one more thing to please God enough. That is a crime. There are some other critiques of the catholic church that are more serious: the Pope's infallibility in matters of faith, prayer and confession through intermediaries (priests/saints) rather than directly to God/Jesus. Root of the catholic faith still rest on Jesus's death and resurrection; and our acceptance of that atoning sacrifice as the basis of salvation - they just had to complicate it quite a bit.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:39:49 AM EST
    Ace
    One last time people, evolution is a fact
    I admire your faith
    Creationism is certainly a part of western culture and should be taught in schools, but as history and cultur, NOT as science.
    Ill take it - thanks for this

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 09:54:35 AM EST
    JCHF, do you take the germ theory of disease on faith? Of course not. It is proven. The evidence in the fossil record and molecular biology prove evolution. It is not faith. It is accepted fact (or a refusal to acknowledge).

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 10:08:07 AM EST
    “JCHF, do you take the germ theory of disease on faith? Of course not. It is proven.” I guess that depends on what you consider proof. Germs aren’t anything we directly experience; simply metaphysical objects, no more real than a neutron or gravity/mass. Your faith in the scientific method, I’m certain this is what you believe has ‘proved’ the germ theory, is little different than faith in the Holey Ghost. I understand the utility of it; antilock breaks, cell phones, and so forth. However, you have faith that simple reproducibility leads to a fundamental description of reality. I’m a bit more skeptical.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 10:41:28 AM EST
    Ace, No - natural selection as it applies within species is proven. Genetic scientists as they have examined the gene pool and historical/ anthropological DNA records have frankly hurt your case each new discovery. It is in the field of molecular biology as we see the complex structures within what we thought was a blob of protoplasm - where the most serious questions about intelligent design have been raised - particularly in the whole question of DNA and its "evolution". I may someday, as Havelock said, have to give you evolution and keep the cosmology - but as a scientific thinker and a christian I do not have to do that yet. Certainly on this site, you can understand how questioning of basic assumptions is controlled by cultures /institutions who wish them to be maintained. Michael Behe (Darwins Black Box) was A DOCTORAL GRADUATE STUDENT in microbiology when he read Denton's Evolution: Theory in Crisis and realized that the issues raised, while known, were not even discussed up to that point in his education. As to the fossil record, it shows complex life in all of its array - but it does not tell us how one form transformed (or if it transformed) to another - we are operating on assumption without a proven mechanism. If molecular and genetic biology tell us that those life forms could not have evolved from each other by any known natural process - then what will that fossil record say to you?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 12:58:32 PM EST
    I have been a conservative my whole life and a criminal lawyer. Lately, I have felt burnt out and somewhat disillusioned. I have been attempting experimentation with a paradigm shift in my thinking. Once I start thinking liberal, I find myself somewhat reenergized with a cause and a mission. Has anyone been through this conversion process? Any criminal lawyers who can help me with this burn out feeling?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 01:41:00 PM EST
    Ace penalized for non-responsive reply. I gave some facts - you have not refuted one of them. Hold to your faith

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by BigTex on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 01:56:54 PM EST
    Jlivingston Those making the argument about the popes "greatness" with "he stood strong against communism" and child abuse is a north american problem are living in supreme denial. Th' facts However, a sex abuse scandal among clergy plunged his church into moral crisis. He summoned U.S. cardinals to the Vatican and told them: "The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. Who's in denial?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 02:59:32 PM EST
    John Hart sez "I have been a conservative my whole life and a criminal lawyer. " sounds almost redundant;-) After watergate my dad started calling himself a 'criminal defense attorney' so as not to be confused with those criminal lawyers!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 06:18:32 PM EST
    Ace, I like the bumper sticker that says "Beam me up Scotty there's no intelligent life down here" On that level, maybe the apes should be complaining If there is ever a right moment, ill tell you something of my history.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Apr 02, 2005 at 08:46:22 PM EST
    Big Tex, hardly a strong rebuke. Was there an apology attached to it? I don't recall an apology, but what I do recall is that the retired FBI agent the catholic church hired said she was stonewalled every step of the way in trying to root out problems when she was assigned to do so. I like ya big tex and it is always hard to say that you don't care for someone when they pass, especially when it will hurt folks. But truth be told, I am really unmoved by the death and truly believe that the pope was not apologetic nor did he ever express outrage. Guess it is who and how they are looking at it...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jlvngstn on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 05:33:52 AM EST
    Big Tex said: Who's in denial? I say, you. The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church. The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a 'blueprint for deception and concealment'. One British lawyer acting for Church child abuse victims has described it as 'explosive'. The 69-page Latin document bearing the seal of Pope John XXIII was sent to every bishop in the world. The instructions outline a policy of 'strictest' secrecy in dealing with allegations of sexual abuse and threatens those who speak out with excommunication. They also call for the victim to take an oath of secrecy at the time of making a complaint to Church officials. It states that the instructions are to 'be diligently stored in the secret archives of the Curia [Vatican] as strictly confidential. Nor is it to be published nor added to with any commentaries.' It focuses on sexual abuse initiated as part of the confessional relationship between a priest and a member of his congregation. But the instructions also cover what it calls the 'worst crime', described as an obscene act perpetrated by a cleric with 'youths of either sex or with brute animals (bestiality)'. Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases 'in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office... under the penalty of excommunication'. Lawyers point to a letter the Vatican sent to bishops in May 2001 clearly stating the 1962 instruction was in force until then. The letter is signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, the most powerful man in Rome beside the Pope and who heads the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - the office which ran the Inquisition in the Middle Ages.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Apr 03, 2005 at 10:18:18 AM EST
    Tex and JLV: Your posts dont disagree - even the 1962 letter calls sexual abuse of children horrible. I am not a catholic, but understand the chrisian dilimma (sp?). We believe everyone sins - darn near every day - and that is why Jesus was hear as a redeeming sacrifice. We also believe that sins are more or less equal in the eyes of a perfect God. So if a member of your body carries out this sin do you throw him out of your body so he is separated from those that can help him find the strength through God to overcome his sin? No My EXTERNAL opinion is that the Catholic Church failed to understand how tenaous and all-consuming sexual sin and pedophilia are and therefore did not take anywhere near strong enough steps to remove these offenders from contact with children. Should they have turned them over to the police? Would you turn your brother in if he committed a crime? Hard call. As to the secrecy - most organizations in the world keep internal disciplinary matters secret under pain of dismissal. I am also sure they acted under the fear of bad press.

    Friday Open Thread | 81 comments (81 topical)