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Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:30:09 PM EST
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First, I'd like to give a major thanks to TChris for his excellent posting yesterday. And another big, big thanks to blogger Mike Ditto, who volunteered to help me pack up my law office yesterday and spent 8 hours with no breaks labeling and boxing files, equipment and books. I doubt I could have done it without him. Even moving up one floor is an enormous undertaking. I'm off to the east coast today and will be back Friday morning, in time for court and the actual office move. There's a lot going on in the world, so please, keep the comments coming.

< Calif. Appeals Ct. Overturns Sentence for Failure of Sex Offender to Register | Three Ejected from Bush's Denver Rally >

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    Wednesday Open Thread | 100 comments (100 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 04:31:23 AM EST
    A question for the lawyers here: Is it possible to get a "conviction" based on a plea-bargain overturned? If so, on what kind of grounds?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:16:28 AM EST
    Just read that Johnnie Cochran died. I am reading through his obituary and I am amazed at all the cases he won (not just the celebrity cases I already knew about). Lots of police brutality stuff.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:24:11 AM EST
    On a totally different note: I've been rading a number of reports that the ACLU is threatening law suits against a group of people who are planning to gather in Arizona in April to monitor the border and report illegal immigrants entering the country to the proper authorities. Can anyone, perhaps Mfox, TalkLeft's resident ACLU supporter, explain their position on this and why they seem to support the rights of illigal immigrants over those of U.S. citizens?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:38:53 AM EST
    justpaul posse comitatus it isn't the particular issue of border patroling but the issue of citizens operating their own police departments -it sets a bad precedent

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:45:40 AM EST
    justpaul I think the concern comes from stories such as this one from the Arizona Republic.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:48:00 AM EST
    Anonymous, Interesting take you have on the Posse Comitatus act, since this is not the government using the military for police duties in country, it's a group of private citizens who seem to be attempting to protest the government's failure to adequately enforce the immigration laws.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:51:09 AM EST
    GregZ, So it is now the position of the ACLU that all groups which may be infilitrated by those it opposes should be threatened with lawsuits and monitored? WIll they be threatening MoveOn.org with such suits and monitors when it next plans a protest? After all, it's not as if there aren't neo-nazi dimwits who oppose this government's policies as well. If this is al the ACLU is upset about, it's over-reacting beyong belief, and attempting to stifle the freedom of speech and assembly of those involved in the process.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:52:13 AM EST
    there's the law from 1848 and then there's this

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:54:03 AM EST
    justpaul I don't know the ACLU's position go to their web site and read it yourself. If you think it is a good idea to have vigilantes patrolling the Mexican border then please elaborate.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:56:28 AM EST
    Dafur Death Toll May Reach 300,000 How can one lady get so much attention when events like this are taking place. Shame on the hypocrites who claim they hold life as scared and do nothing to aid the plight of these oppressed people in Darfur.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:00:39 AM EST
    GregZ, Already went to the ACLU web site. Oddly enough they don't mention this action at all. Could they be embarassed by their position? As for whether I think it's a good idea, that's hardly relevant to what the ACLU is reportedly up to. I can disagree with the actions of any group but still support their right to do it (assuming such a right exists). I don't care for the Klan, and certainly don't approve of their marching through any town anywhere, but they have that right and I wouldn't expect the ACLU the threaten them for seeking to exercise that right. Furthermore, it seems to me that the ACLU is the one claiming these people will be acting as "vigilantes". The group itself has made it very clear that they do not intend to even attempt to apprehend anyone, only to report them if they are seen crossing the border. In that sense, then no, I don't have a problem with it. They are free citizens with the right to gather and the freedom to report criminal activity if they see it. What's the problem with that?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:13:04 AM EST
    Bush decries border project By James G. Lakely THE WASHINGTON TIMES WACO, Texas — President Bush yesterday said he opposes a civilian project to monitor illegal aliens crossing the border, characterizing them as "vigilantes."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:15:13 AM EST
    JustPaul, Read about this story last night. My position on immigration has been if you don't want them here, don't let them get in. So initially was glad to hear that more officers being deployed to AZ border. A sizeable percentage are apparently "Search and Rescue" trained. Then heard about citizen patrols and felt a qualm about the idea but didn't have any objections per se. Then read ACLU challenging citizen's right. Apparently while the group as a whole has put themselves forth as observers and reporters, apparently a number of them plan to be armed. Don't know the ACLU's position on this one or the legal references above, but will check it out. JustPaul, how can you hate the American Civil Liberties Union? I would think that folks would like civil liberties and would want to keep them. I would think that those who don't feel that they work for the common good are those who would like to limit our civil liberties. Geez, JustPaul, you'd think I was expressing gratitude to the KKK or something!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:24:07 AM EST
    justpaul why are you so concerned with what the ACLU is doing? Answer my question. Do you think it is right to have armed vigilantes patrolling the Mexican border? The link above discusses how hate groups have began calling members to join these teams. Seems if immigration is a concern then lobby the government to get more border patrols, trained professionals to provide better protection.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:25:35 AM EST
    Greg, are you irony-proof? What are YOU doing for the Darfuris? It's too easy, following your Darfur post, to bring your pathology to the fore simply by typing: "Hypocrites like you, Greg?" On a different note, (this being an open thread), I feel one of the most useful attributes of this site is the ease with which so many witless leftists are willing to parade their foolish behaviorisms before the thousands of readers here when said leftists are simply presented with the facts that refute their positions. The insight gained by the many readers who have the opportuniy to behold this ongoing spectacle no doubt does wonders in helping to bring more adherents to straight-forward, down-to-earth, common-sense ways of understanding current events.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:27:07 AM EST
    Mfox, You're making your standard leaps again. I asked a question about the ACLU's position on this case. I didn't say I hate them. As it is, I'm not particularly happy with a number of the stances that they take, and I think they are overhyped (by their own design) as defenders of the constitution, but hate hardly factors into it. Maybe if you weren't such a rabid supporter, you'd be able to see the difference. Regardless of whether "some" of these people plan to be armed, if they are licensed to carry in Arizona, they are still well within their rights, and since they have received threats on this issue, I can hardly blame them. I still don't see why the ACLU would choose to harass honest citizens acting within their rights in favor of illegal immigrants violating our laws when, as of yet, nothing has happened. Am I wrong? Does the ACLU routinely threaten liberal interest groups with lawsuits on the grounds that the anarchists might show up and trash another Starbucks? If so, on what grounds? Thanks for the input though. I'll be intersted to see what you can find out in the way of the ACLU's stated reasoning for their position.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:30:05 AM EST
    Anonymous, Learn to read. I did answer the question. As in: "The group itself has made it very clear that they do not intend to even attempt to apprehend anyone, only to report them if they are seen crossing the border. In that sense, then no, I don't have a problem with it. They are free citizens with the right to gather and the freedom to report criminal activity if they see it. What's the problem with that?" Furthermore, take a moment and choose a name for yourself and use it. There are already enough Anonymous posters here and one more just further confuses the issue of who is speaking.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:55:57 AM EST
    What am I doing ace? I have been actively involved in bring this incident in the forefront. I have spent about $100 (which is alot for a poor grad student) on wristbands to hand out to my friends. The entire contribution goes to the refugee fund. I have attended various speakers on the issue and have attmepted to bring more awareness to the issue. What have you done ace? Or do the people of Darfur and Africa not factor into your preservation of life? Hypocrites are people like yourself ace, who say they support the culture of life but fully support war which kills thousands of inncoent people. Hypocrites are those who say they "error on the side of life" but put to death many innocent people through lethal injections.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:17:33 AM EST
    No sweat, TL. I hate going to the gym--It's like going to the dentist for me. So any opportunity to move around big, large, hefty objects that doesn't involve muscle-bound idiots and standing in line, combined with good company and interesting conversation (especially considering the "mood" you were in for the first 4 hours!) is great, because I still get the exercise, and I don't have to feel like the token fat guy amidst the aerobicised twits. And your office got all packed up, so it was good for both of us! Have fun on your trip. Bring me back a souvenir spoon from one of the tourist shops, Craig loves those things. We have to get one for his collection everywhere we travel.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:24:04 AM EST
    justpaul, On the ACLU, I don't agree with them on every issue, but I sure am glad they are around. I fear where our country would be without them. Once I get some extra cash together, I'd like to donate to the ACLU and become one of those reviled "card carrying members". This group that wants to watch the border seem to be within their rights, I have no problem with what they plan to do, besides a personal bias against people who "drop a dime" on others for non-violent stuff. In my opinion, I think their efforts would be more fruitful if they went after the companies that employ illegals, but whatever floats their boat. I do agree that the ACLU's stance on this seems strange. You could call their plan a form of protest, which I would count on the ACLU to support.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:55:17 AM EST
    Just Paul, Points taken. I may have seemed a little (?) reactionary to folks trashing the ACLU. In fact I'm not even a "card carrying member" (by virtue of being disorganized more than a lack of intent". However, ever since Michael Dukakis was vilified by Reagan for being a "card-carrying member", I have supported their efforts and cause. They seem to be labled radical left-wingers which seems a little strange to me. I actually, therefore, don't follow their actions and can't speak for them, but assume they have good intentions and have weathered a lot of unearned threats and criticism. If I had to pick which was more of a threat to American liberty today, the Bush administration or the ACLU, you know where my money is. Am interested on their take on this. Will try to check it out. BTW I looked up this posse comitas thing. It seems to give citizens the right to take up arms, try and convict corrupt government officials if they cannot "self-police". I can't see it justifying citizen patrols in a case where they feel law enforcement isn't enough. It just sounds like a recipe for disaster, JP. Despite their vilification, I just can't get all angry about a guy, or woman, or kid trying to make it to America to have a better life. I just can't see them as "the problem" and punishing them as "the solution". In my heart, they're the underdog and I'm rooting for them and their future. Re: Jobs being lost and minimum wage being undercut, we can address those without posses. Now, if we really want to stop TERRORISM at the border -that's another bag of Tamales and an argument for focusing on undocumented aliens, with trained law enforcement professionals.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:04:54 AM EST
    it's the "pre-emptive" mindset that were all beginning to embrace. you'd have to be naive or support were this project is going to ultimately lead. 400 missing persons/bodies on this side of the rio grande. white supremacist infiltrating, mexico inflaming situation, etc., etc., and on! the aclu by bringing light to this "inevitable scenario" has embraced "pre-emption" or what i fondly refer to as "acting on if/might". "pre-emption" previously, until "legitimized" by GWB, being reserved for cowards, psychopaths, and aggressors. oh this shoe still fits.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:14:14 AM EST
    This is what I found so far... ACLU to monitor Minuteman CLAUDINE LoMONACO Tucson Citizen
    The American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona plans to monitor an upcoming civilian patrol along the Arizona-Mexico border. The observers will trail volunteers of the Minuteman Project throughout April as they patrol the border along Cochise County for illegal immigrants. "We will be there to make sure they're not abusing anybody's rights," the ACLU's Ray Ybarra said. A team of lawyers will be on hand to file civil cases against Minuteman participants if abuses occur, he said. The ACLU is planning hourlong training sessions over the next month for volunteers in Tucson, Douglas and Phoenix. For more information, call (520) 364-1188.
    Does the ACLU's actions seem unnecessary or intrusive to anyone here? Do immigrants have ANY rights as human beings, as detainees of the INS or can we now just call anyone who enters the country illegaly an "enemy combatant" and hijack their life, liberty, etc.? The only argument it seems to me for NOT wanting the ACLU there is the argument that these illegals aren't entitled to any protection under the law. In other words, be honest. If your response to a few illegals getting a taste of vigilante justice is "Good", they deserved it, then of course you wouldn't want the ACLU there. If your feeling is that the ACLU isn't needed because only "good guys" are volunteering for operation minuteman - you may be a bit naive. In looking for this info. I came across a few websites like American Citizen Patrol that would scare the pants off me if I knew they were waiting at the border for me (they blame illegals for America's obvious demise - apparently all being of indigenous American descent.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:32:49 AM EST
    Mfox, And points taken as well. But I think the basic question still stands. When leftist groups announce plans to "demonstrate" at a WTO meeting, does the ACLU send them letters threatening lawsuits if anyone's rights are violated? Do they send "monitors" to record any civil rights violations? Or do they simply send their own members to join in on the "fun"? The ACLU bills itself as a champion of the First Amendment (even though, until recently, they seemed to have missed the entire first clause in it—as previously discussed). Now it is treatening action against those who are simply intending to exercise their rights under that amendment. Seems a bit odd to me, that's all.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:32:59 AM EST
    Despite their vilification, I just can't get all angry about a guy, or woman, or kid trying to make it to America to have a better life. I just can't see them as "the problem" and punishing them as "the solution". In my heart, they're the underdog and I'm rooting for them and their future
    mfox my dear...well said. That sums up my feeling on illegal immigration. I can't help but root for them as well. I live in a neighborhood where latino immigrants, legal and illegal, are the majority. My eyes see them as an asset to the community. Latino immigrants have cleaned up rundown eyesore properties. The house next to mine looked like a shanty until some Equadorians moved in, now there is new grass growing, a shiny new fence, etc. They are hard workers, and the many bodegas they have opened give me affordable food options far better than fast food. I welcome them. The fact that some are breaking immigration laws isn't a big deal to me. I break the law everyday, doesn't make you a bad person.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:39:05 AM EST
    Did Terry Schiavo wake up yet. Cmon Randall, Jesse, Pat, Jimmy. Where's the miracle? If we can get the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, why can't these faith healers cure her? Because they're full of S**T!!!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:45:06 AM EST
    I bet we could make a million bucks if we produced a George Foreman Grill with interchangeable grill plates. We could have the Virgin Mary model, the Elvis model, the Democracy model... You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:46:00 AM EST
    You know, for the grilled cheeses.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:46:27 AM EST
    Che...don't get me started. Snakeoil salesman all. What gets me is people have been buying the snakeoil for thousands of years. Never underestimate the power of willfull ignorance.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:09:50 AM EST
    Shame on the hypocrites who claim they hold life as scared and do nothing to aid the plight of these oppressed people in Darfur. And what have you done, pray tell?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:17:14 AM EST
    Oh, I just saw your response to DA. Guess what? You've done nothing. People are dying and nothing you've done has stopped it. But hey, if it gives you the 'moral superiority' your fragile ego demands, so be it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:31:41 AM EST
    It seems in the last two posts, someone is having an argument with themself. Hey, aren't we supposed to get the Ashcroft v. Raich decision today???

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:46:59 AM EST
    Very good Michael.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 11:22:58 AM EST
    Ace, Funny stuff!!!! Your point about Greg was priceless. He's a "poor graduate student" but BY GOLLY, he scraped together $100 for the purpose of buying PLASTIC WRIST BANDS. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. That ought to REAlly make those Darfur women happy when they are being gang raped again for the hundredth time. And like the typical non producing graduate student who pays ZERO INCOME taxes, he would like EVERYONE ELSE to come to the rescue of the poor folks in Darfur. So he calls people hypocrites, and then, satisfied with his "efforts", he feels whole. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAA. Hey, Greg. Your silly plastic wrist band is a ferry nice gesture (yeah, it really is) but like Ace says, your post does more to showcase the typical child-like thinking process of lefty idealists than anything else.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 11:32:32 AM EST
    Yes, isn't it wonderful we have the gift of free will. I pray you encounter something that will help you overcome your own willfull ignorance.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    mfox... I just can't get all angry about a guy, or woman, or kid trying to make it to America to have a better life. I just can't see them as "the problem" and punishing them as "the solution". Nothing wrong with them wanting a better life Mfox... but what's wrong with doing that legally? Slipping under the fence and jumping line on the respectable person who is going through legal channels should not be rewarded. I am angry. And the ACLU (which I'm sure you know stands for the "American civil liberties Union") should be concerned with American's rights first & formost. Not puting the 'supposed' (or should I say imagined) rights of illegal entrants first. Just my opinion Kdog... My eyes see them as an asset to the community. And many of them are... true enough. But many more are not. But in either case, what's wrong with going through the legal channels? That way the good citzens you cite are in...and the bad ones I have seen can be kept out. Sounds logical doesn't it? 'Commnon sense' party dude!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:04:33 PM EST
    kdog states This group that wants to watch the border seem to be within their rights, I have no problem with what they plan to do, besides a personal bias against people who "drop a dime" on others for non-violent stuff. kdog, with all due respect, pick up almost any issue of any southwestern U.S. newspaper and you will find at least one article about a VIOLENT crime committed by these illegal emigrants. It is certainly not true that the majority of these “illegals” are violent. Probably in the 5% to 10% range. But, some of them are coming across the border, already armed. The people doing the patrols, are frustrated citizens, tired of their families being threatened or worse, by these illegal emigrants. As for the ACLU, the group is basically a moneymaking machine, just like the American Red Cross. Many of the people in the trenches are sincere, but the big guys are mainly interested in living in opulence. So they choose high-profile or controversial cases, for the publicity. It’s how they do their fundraising. It’s not that they don’t do some good work, again just like the Red Cross. But, somehow, it seems slimy. And, I believe, many of their contributors, if they knew the truth, would consider themselves defrauded!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:11:41 PM EST
    “Hey, aren't we supposed to get the Ashcroft v. Raich decision today???” I’ve been checking the SC slip list. It should appear there shortly after the decision. I don’t know where to get it sooner.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:17:39 PM EST
    Michael Ditto states I bet we could make a million bucks if we produced a George Foreman Grill with interchangeable grill plates. We could have the Virgin Mary model, the Elvis model, the Democracy model... You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in. Let me know when you make the Hillary Clinton model!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:22:58 PM EST
    You know, Greg, if you were famous instead of a lowly grad student the tighty-right Ace-holes of the world wouldn't be sneering at the bracelet thing. Look at Lance Armstrong or Melissa Etheridge's Pink Bracelet Fund. Bracelets bring awareness and money to a cause -- that's something at least. Tom Delay and Jebby are probably working on a Choose Life/Save Terri bracelet made of plastic medical tubing.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:43:38 PM EST
    BB...You make a valid point, I just feel that going after the guy hopping the fence is pointless. He's hungry and looking for a job. Catch him, and another guy will hop the fence tomm. to get the job the first guy was hopping over for. Now if you go after the companies that employ illegals, you might get somewhere. That's common sense too, of the supply and demand variety. The US has a high demand for cheap labor, and Mexico has the supply.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:44:58 PM EST
    Soldier....I'm not buying that illegal immigrants commit more crime than US citizens...got a link?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:50:01 PM EST
    "American civil liberties Union"
    understand the america in their name represent the american idea/ideals, "all men are created equal, etc.", not just americans, coupling that with the idea and notion that america is the example for humanity, the aclu's stated goal of "ensuring their civil liberties" were not infringed and/or ignored, you do see where this leads, the defense of all civil liberties, for everyone especially on american soil, i.e, there defense of eneny combatants. the right seems to be really assured that this project will not cross into vigilantism (i otoh see exactly that, of course it already has crossed when they have decided that the law was not doing effectively enough), but you do not extend that assurance to the aclu, an organization that has been around for decades whose work whether you agree or not (bad ideas on gun control) has been consistent. further to muzzle the rights position, it's GWB that has opened this countries borders to mass and wide spread illegal immigration, not prosecuting it, reducing border control funding etc., the failed immigration legislation (you know the one about amensty), check with "Fred D" for the reasons and the resultant consequences! pre-emptive troll-away: clinton started it with NAFTA!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:07:53 PM EST
    Soldier....I'm not buying that illegal immigrants commit more crime than US citizens...got a link? kdog, got a link to where he said that? (He didn't) If one of the civilian patrolees breaks a law, then he should be charged with a crime. If he doesn't break a law, then leave him alone. Actually, with the border patrol, the Minutemen and ACLU types patroling the border, we should be able to stop even more illegals from entering.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Kitt on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:13:17 PM EST
    Okay - can Terri Schiavo go now that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals has refused yet another appeal?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:32:22 PM EST
    You're right sarc, he didn't, though I think he was implying as such. If the rate of violent crimes commited by illegals is the same as the rate for US citizens, I don't see the relevance. A certain percentage of human beings commit violent crimes, no surprise there. When they do, arrest them and try them. I stated above I believe the Minutemen have a right to go ahead with their plan/protest, I just feel they are barking up the wrong tree. Go after the employers if you want to see results. The illegal immigrants in my community don't bother me none, so it's not a big issue for me. Granted, in southern border states, things are probably different. I am surprised, and a bit troubled, by the ACLU's stance. My view is it is a form of protest. Not my fight, but I support their right to do it, so should the ACLU. I still want that ACLU card though, 95% of the time I agree with them.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:46:19 PM EST
    kdog, I think you mis-understood what I said. I certainly didn't say that illegal immigrants commit more crimes than U.S. Citizens. I could have said, “if you pick up almost any newspaper in the country, you will find an article about the death of a person over 80 years old.” Would you then conclude that I believed most people in this country was over age 80? Please don’t read your biases into my posts. The truth is, since many jurisdictions refuse to record citizenship status on crime reports, no one knows. Any statistics you do find will be highly suspect. And getting them from the Internet would only make them more so.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:49:55 PM EST
    I dunno, soldier. I'm not buying the line that these guys are "frustrated citizens". Maybe a few... but c'mon. Aren't you really saying that if you cross into USA illegally you deserve what you get?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:50:02 PM EST
    kdog, Sorry. I didn't see your correction before I made my post.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:51:03 PM EST
    You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in. Let me know when you make the Hillary Clinton model!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:51:53 PM EST
    You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in. Let me know when you make the Hillary Clinton model!
    Sorry soldier...she really, really does exist. Bill forgot a few times but several months on the couch reminded him!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:58:15 PM EST
    kdog, to put words in Soldier's mouth, I think he is saying that ANY crimes committed by illegals add to the crime rate of the US and that, while not all illegals commit crimes, border patrol can be interpreted as law enforcement for the public good. Is this correct, soldier?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:58:17 PM EST
    I bet we could make a million bucks if we produced a George Foreman Grill with interchangeable grill plates. We could have the Virgin Mary model, the Elvis model, the Democracy model... You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in.
    Might as well toss in socialism while your at it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:59:30 PM EST
    Sorry soldier for mis-interpreting you. I have always heard the illegal immigration debate framed around their use of social services w/o paying taxes. Your post was the first I heard of American citizens fearing violent, armed illegals crossing the border. You may be right, but I am skeptical. It doesn't pass my "common sense" test. Why would a Mexican murderer or rapist risk arrest or death crossing the border to commit violent crimes here that they can commit in Mexico? Now, a job paying $5-6 bucks an hour in the US, when they are paying $1 an hour in Mexico, that seems to me to be worth the risk to cross the border. Heck, if they were paying triple for the work I do here in Canada, I'd freakin' think about hopping a fence too!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:00:51 PM EST
    You know, a plate for everything that doesn't exist but people still want to believe in.
    Apologies for the low blow, but could a grilled cheese show an fMRI of Terri Shiavo's cognitive functioning? Poor girl. Any will she had to remain in this life must surely be gone by now if, in fact, she somehow "knows".

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:01:03 PM EST
    No, I'm not saying the "illegals" deserve what they get. Some of them are small children or even babies. Many of them become highly productive members of society. But they are denied the rewards they have earned, because they are here illegally. Have you been reading about the bad W-2s that are being filed in their name? These are living, breathing human beings and they are being treated like expendables in a horror movie.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:01:38 PM EST
    Aren't you really saying that if you cross into USA illegally you deserve what you get? I can't speak for sailor, but for me, yes, as long as what they get is within the law.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:06:59 PM EST
    Your post was the first I heard of American citizens fearing violent, armed illegals crossing the border. You may be right, but I am skeptical. kdog, spend a couple minutes on google.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:09:39 PM EST
    John Brown resigned from the diplomatic service on the eve of the Iraq invasion because he disagreed with it. In this article he describes why the Bush and the neocons have given up on the concept of World War IV - the fight against Islamofascism and now talk about the spread of democracy although there has in fact been no change in policy. Its a change in packaging.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:10:37 PM EST
    Each illegal immigrant, crossing the border, prevents one legal immigrant from coming into this country. (Yes, I know not directly, but over time that is exactly the effect.) Do you suppose the ACLU border patrol watchers will also be reporting the illegal immigrants to protect the rights of these legal immigrants?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:14:16 PM EST
    Sarcastic, At least you're honest. What do you think the law should be and what problem would it be addressing? Just out of curiosity...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:15:03 PM EST
    Got a problem? Ask a graduate student for a solution. Answer... Spend your hard earned money on plastic bracelets and walk around looking like a gullible, idealistic student. Greg, perhaps it's time for you to drop out of school and go out into the world and OPEN YOUR EYES. Plastic bracelets have not improved one person's life in the world, ever.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:16:48 PM EST
    My first wife was chicana, and her position as a Mexican-American nationalist was that the US-Mexican border was a contrivance imposed down the middle of a culture against its will. Logically, take that position and re-think the whole concept of Mexican illegal immigration - or accept the US's right (along with every other country in the world) to control access through its borders - and defend the laws of the country against those who would break them And for all who say the solution is the employers - exactly. Its US demand ( just like in drugs ) that drives the market - not supply

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:19:28 PM EST
    mfox states Sorry soldier...she really, really does exist. Bill forgot a few times but several months on the couch reminded him! I was talking about the Hillary Clinton that is worshipped by certain members of the left. Maybe I should have said the Virgin Hillary.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:20:12 PM EST
    Soldier, Can we agree then that those wishing to earn some cash in the US should be able to stop into an office once they get here and obtain ID's and a temporary green card? Isn't this the best way to fight terrorism? The guest worker thing is the only Bush plan I've liked. Let's pay them minimum wage. My point being that if legal immigration is not possible for those desiring it then it's not going to solve anything, is it? Appreciate this very interesting conversation and its respectful discourse. Would that the folks really in charge do the same!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:27:00 PM EST
    Eclaire - It dosnt seem to have done much for you. But, theres a chance things could improve if you ever get to the thinking stage.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:28:38 PM EST
    mfox, In my experience, most illegal Mexican immigrants intend to be here temporarily. While I think our present laws are a good start, I would like to see a more liberal temporary guest worker program for Mexicans. That said, the fact that many folks come here legally on a temporary visa and then dissapear into the woodwork concerns me.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Bill on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:36:07 PM EST
    For some inane reason I find it difficult to understand how these peace-nicks claim to have the right to degrade the president but will never volunteer to join any branch of the armed forces to fight for that right. No, they would much rather sit back and smoke their mary juanna and shove herion in their veins. Perhaps one day not too far into the future their pacifisist ranting will permit the enemies of Amarica to land on our soil then I want to see how soon those idiots begin to scream for real fighting men and women to come and protect them!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:41:40 PM EST
    I don't have to Google this one to know that there were groups like these in San Diego in the past. They were accused of abusing border crossers and were carrying guns despite saying they wouldn't. As to violent crime, it's really not an issue. Migrant workers are just as likely to be victims of violent crime as they are perpeterators of such. One example: A couple years ago they convicted 3 or 4 teens for attacking a small camp of migrant workers and beating them. I guess it was the workers' fault for being here in the first place.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:43:14 PM EST
    So Bill, only those who have served have the right to criticize the pres? Aren't you fighting (assuming from your comment that you have or are serving) for us and our right to freely criticize our government? Just out of curiosity - are you saying that everyone who degrades the prez is a pacifist drug addict? BTW, my line has always been that if enemies of America invade Boston Harbor and start up the Charles River you can guarantee I'll be out there as a citizen soldier defending my home. (I used to be a pretty good shot with a 30 odd 6, but will upgrade to 50cal if necessary!)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:59:38 PM EST
    Thanks for asking mfox. I would place HUGE fines on companies or individuals hiring illegal workers, making it less costly to hire legal workers. I would pay rewards for people reporting companies that are hiring illegal workers. That kind of stuff. Take the profit margin out of hiring illegals. Also, some government reform is needed. The U.S. Treasury has received false W-2s on $463 BILLION dollars worth of earnings over the years. The GAO has determined that many of these come from firms who have illegal workers. The government is making a profit from illegal immigration! Provide Mexico with incentives to prevent illegal immigration from there. But also, penalize Mexico for every illegal crossing the border from there, after a certain date. Correct whatever problems exist with the worker-visa program. The end goal should be to make it difficult to remain an illegal worker in this country, but relatively easy to go home, get a worker’s visa, and come back as a legal worker. Of course, this doesn’t come anywhere near addressing all our immigration problems, but it frees up the INS to deal with those, more difficult issues. And it probably involves more policy changes that it does changes to the law, so it should be easier to implement.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:07:59 PM EST
    but relatively easy to go home, get a worker’s visa, and come back as a legal worker. As much as it sticks in my craw that any illegal would have the opportunity to get such a visa ahead of, or in place of, one of their fellow countryman who didn't cross the border illegally, I would support this "go home, get a visa, then come back" plan.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:20:26 PM EST
    Che’s states As to violent crime, it's really not an issue. Migrant workers are just as likely to be victims of violent crime as they are perpeterators of such. I can’t prove it, but I suspect that isn’t true. I suspect migrant workers are MUCH MORE likely to be the victims of violent crime, than they are to be the perpetrators. How many of these crimes are going to be reported? And to answer a question that came up before, perhaps the reason some criminals become illegal immigrants is “easy pickin’s” So I conclude that violent crime is very much an issue.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 04:01:05 PM EST
    Got a problem? Ask a graduate student for a solution. Answer... Spend your hard earned money on plastic bracelets and walk around looking like a gullible, idealistic student. Did you donate any money to the humanitarian groups aiding those in Darfur? The bracelets help bring more awareness, but of course these people porbably don't matter much to you EClaire...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 04:12:15 PM EST
    Ace - Are you warming up for the troll olympics or what? What' s up with all the flaming?? you know.. there was a time when even you made some sence. Is it all over but the screaming?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 04:18:29 PM EST
    anyone that saw the bracelets mentioned above here is a link. They can be purcahsed in various amounts. I know most who read this thread are not as narrowminded as some of the comments that have been made about this, but as Lisa mentioned earlier, it has worked in the past to raise awareness and funding.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:58:35 PM EST
    et al - All the BS aside, this link will show you the cost of illegal immigration in dollars. A secondary issue is societal. In the past, communications was such that the entropy of the system assured the country that the people would be assimilated into the American culture. That is no longer true. And while we can talk about the benefits of "diversity," the downside is am possibility that we can balkanize the US. A third issue is the depressing affect the illegals have on wages. Many like to talk about how they are only taking jobs americans don't want. That is not true. They are taking jobs that americans don't want at the wage level being offerred. This may work to the advantage of the upper middle class, but it certainly hurts the lower and lower middle class by keeping their wages low. mfox - Please, if you call it a 30 odd 6, stay away from weapons. And the days in which Johnny could get his gun is long past, so I think you are just posturing for your own ego. kcog - You are correct. The problem is that Mexico's economy is so terrible that they'll just keep coming. Bush should have told Fox: Reform, or we'll arrange a regime change. And yes. They have many of the values, heck, all of the values we claim to hold dear. Hardwork, strong families, self and infrastructure improvements. This is a lose lose situation.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:11:29 PM EST
    PPJ (aka Jim) A third issue is the depressing affect the illegals have on wages. Many like to talk about how they are only taking jobs americans don't want. That is not true. They are taking jobs that americans don't want at the wage level being offerred. This may work to the advantage of the upper middle class, but it certainly hurts the lower and lower middle class by keeping their wages low. Bravo! There is no such thing as jobs that Americans don’t want. Offer Americans the job of cleaning latrines at $1,000,000 an hour and you would quickly find that out. When you talk about job demand without including compensation, you are leaving out HALF of the equation. It is a true shame how many people don’t understand this basic concept.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:23:55 PM EST
    Greg, No, I did not. I did not pray for them, buy bracelets for them, or send them blankets. I did not contribute to feeding them, providing anti-biotics for them, or counseling them to feel good about themselves. The world is a wild and wooly place, Greg. Saving the people of Darfur is no more important to me than it is to anyone else. How silly you must look in your bracelet. (but you feel good about yourself - and that's what it's all about)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:52:18 PM EST
    I find the "jobs nobody would want" idea to be a little bit insulting too. First it's a little condescending to those working in those jobs. Second, there are American citizens who should be working those jobs--teenagers. When I was a teenager (which wasn't that long ago), we all did our time working the fry cooker at McDonalds or doing landscaping, or picking up garbage, or collecting shopping carts at the supermarket. That's how we paid for things like cars, gas, and auto insurance.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:56:05 PM EST
    Soldier, You are right. Violent crime IS an issue for migrants. But I guess it's and issue for us all. I get it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 09:01:41 PM EST
    And Greg Z, Good for you. I'll get one. Eclaire, Go tape up your windows. The muslims are coming.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 11:18:19 PM EST
    Good for you, girl. You go take your money and buy yourself a plastic bracelet. I understand you can get them in many colors, and they are flooding into America by the millions from China, being sold to gullible young college kids who want to help CHANGE THE WORLD. Yes, get yourself several, and feel good that you DID SOMETHING. Or, as you would probably put it "At least you're doing something". Yeah, so am I. I'm laughing. Tape my windows? Huh?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:20:32 AM EST
    Ditto. WTR jobs Americans won't do: The question is not merely compensation, it's alternatives. From time to time some dreadfully right-wing news organization will go to an unemployment office to offer field work. They generally get no takers. I talked recently with a truck farmer on the subject. He pays $7.50 to $9.50 hourly plus room. He literally can't get Americans to do the work. He's in the upper midwest, so it's not like being in the hayfields in Mohave, AZ in the summer. The matter is the difference between that and what else can be done. McDonald's pays about the same, or a little less, depending on market conditions. I remember BK offering $9 to start about five or six years ago. The difference between McDonalds pay and field work pay may be very little, while the work itself is much different. The cash flow difference between unemployment and some under-the-table work on one hand and field work on the other might be too small to motivate somebody to get out his sunblock and go for it. People who don't speak English or are not documented have fewer alternatives. And, they came here for field work. Those who don't like it don't come. So the population who comes here is selected for the work, while the rest of us have the usual proportion of those who would rather not--and don't have to. My truck farmer acquaintance said that when he was in high school he offered his buddies a chance to make good money at the farm, but none of them lasted two weeks. BTW. He said the feds are likely to check on how well he's documented his employees, while if he gets too serious, somebody like the ACLU or La Raza or some local outfit will sue him.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:27:18 AM EST
    Couple of corrections: Posse comitatus is a bunch of right-wing wackos, implicated in violent and racist activities. The actual use of the term refers to a constitutional prohibition against using US troops in police activities, hence the use of National Guard instead of reserves for riot control. Anybody who's been in the military gets that hammered home pretty good. And the issue is not that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are more likely to be victims rather than perps of crimes. That's a really stupid thing to say. We're all more likely to be vics. The point is that some think that uncontrolled immigration lets in too many of the violent types,even though they may not be a majority of the immigrants. And the people on the border seem to think they've been victimized by immigrants more than enough, thank you very much. If you disagree, tell them they need to be victimized more. Or that they're hallucinating. Vandalism, burglary, littering, threats, occasional shootings (no hits yet), people thinking there are so many bad guys coming in the flood that they need to be armed when going about their daily business. Tell these people they're racists for worrying. That ought to fix things.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:15:36 AM EST
    Che writes - "I guess it was the workers' fault for being here in the first place." Of course not. The problem is, if they hadn't been there.... So what you have is a wrong action and a much worse action. Neither should be ignored. et al - I don't think you can stop the illegals trying to come in until Mexico improves its economy and standard of living. NAFTA isn't doing that, all it does is transfer jobs out of the US to a cheaper location. Fox relies on the billions that Mexicans send back to their families, and SS relies on the money paid in that they never have to pay back. You could substantially reduce the numbers with a much more vigorish attempt to close the borders, and allow police to arrest people without green cards and turn them over to Immigration. But this won't be done because both parties fear the political backlash, although I read where hispanic citizens also want it stopped. The balkanization has begun. It is a lose-lose situation.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:39:33 AM EST
    I've enjoyed the discourse gang. My bottom line conclusion....Illegals are coming whether we like it or not. The drug war anology above was spot on, until there is no demand for their labor, the illegals will march on over that line. As I said, illegal immigrants don't bother me none, so it's a minor issue for me. I welcome anyone who just wants to earn a living. Rich, I spent a few weeks digging drainage ditches for $35 a day just a few years ago. I wish I'd known your farmer friend then. From my experience, no strictly manual labor job pays well. The trades can pay well, especially if you are union, but not laborers. BTW, I was the only gringo. Good bunch of guys on that job.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 09:39:16 AM EST
    Odd that so many on this list are so supportive of legal/illegal south-of-the-border immigration, as they are so overwhelmingly very religous Catholics. Let enough of them in, and, in time, even a semblance of separation of church and state will be gone. Have you all been to Mexico and/or Central America? On the other hand, it's also odd that they aren't more welcomed by the religious right...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 09:50:43 AM EST
    Their religion is their business, until they try to force it on me. Interesting point on the religous right. Don't most protestant christians dislike catholics? Or at least used too?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 10:18:03 AM EST
    Kdog, FYI - protestant criticism of the Catholic Church is based on their substitution of man-made rules and requirements for Biblically based principles. Their is a range of belief on whether that constitutes apostasy or not I cannot imagine anyone in the religious basing their belief on immigration policy on the religious beliefs of the immigrants.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 10:30:30 AM EST
    I would hope not JCH.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:39:39 AM EST
    Sarcastic one, YOur statement that it is:
    Odd that so many on this list are so supportive of legal/illegal south-of-the-border immigration, as they are so overwhelmingly very religous Catholics.
    That would imply, sarcastic that you feel progressive liberals are predjudiced against religious folks and don't want more of them. Do you really, really think this? Jim, you're calling me a liar because I've never written 30 odd six? Or is it that someone who chooses life and liberty for others and myself could not possibly know anything about guns? The woods of Vermont aren't that far from Harvard Square you know... In a similar vein, I'm surprised that all the "supply and demand" capitalists aren't calling this a "natural market fluctuation". The politics of personal responsibility aren't pretty. You can't cry "small government" - "no entitlements" - "stay away from my guns" then whine when market forces make jobs more competitive and demand the government "fix" it. If you don't want to compete with illegals, go back to school! The truth is, IMHO, that Americans have a consumer culture expectation of a certain standard of living if they are employed full time. The ability to save, buy a car and house, finance their children's education and their retirement, go on vacation, drink Starbucks, etc. are all an expectation for working class Americans, sold to them by the forces that tell us we deserve these things and should have them. This is becoming more and more of a farce. We shop at Wal-mart now because the only way we can now keep this culture going is to have goods manufactured in places where the employees get paid $2/hour. The truth is, no American can lead a dignified life making minimum wage. The difference is the expectations of foreign workers of what kind of lifestyle their wages will buy - generally food on the table, a place to live where one family one residence is nonexistent, no expectation of medical care or of security in retirement, etc., etc. Ultimately, I don't see how wage and stand. of living inequities won't affect the U.S. economy. I'm afraid the ultimate solution will be an economy the Mexicans aren't that interested in participating in...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 11:41:20 AM EST
    By the way... what the hell is a truck farmer? :)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:49:52 PM EST
    mfox comments If you don't want to compete with illegals, go back to school! It's not that we don't want to compete with "illegals". It is that they can't possibly compete with us. Where is your compassion for these people?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 12:51:47 PM EST
    mfox: That would imply, sarcastic that you feel progressive liberals are predjudiced against religious folks and don't want more of them.
    There would be reason for someone reading TL to think this.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:23:09 PM EST
    I don't know if I'm a true "progressive liberal"...but I'll be honest and admit I have a prejudice of overly religous folks...that prejudice being they are insane.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 01:34:23 PM EST
    Kdog, Nice to know you've certified me. And here I look back on my agnostic years as a foolish rafting trip on de nile.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 02:58:55 PM EST
    mfox - A "truck farmer" is a farmer who raises products that are placed into containers and carried by truck to the markepalce/distribution point. A truck farmer, among other things, grows cabbage, strawberries, tomatoes, carrots, potatoes (sweet and irsh), peas, green beans, okra, lettuce, etc. Having been raised on a farm that did a lot of "truck" farming, I can personally tell you that it is back breaking stoop labor. Happy to improve your knowledge base. And no, my comment was only about a 30 odd 6... I'm still chuckling.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by Dark Avenger on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 08:42:57 PM EST
    so I think you are just posturing for your own ego Whereas PPJ is a selfless bundle of humanitarian impulses who doesn't have an ego problem. Right!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 09:11:47 PM EST
    mfox, Do you really, really think this? Although that was certainly not the point of my post, JCHFleetguy, above, answered your question about as well as it can be done. Btw, did you get a chance to read the two sentences that followed the one that bothers you so? See, the three of them kinda go together...

    Wednesday Open Thread | 100 comments (100 topical)