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Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not

by TChris

Demonstrating their ability to behave like children -- just like their counterparts in the United States -- politicians in Iraq, participating in a second meeting of the constitutional assembly, engaged in a "shouting match today and showed the fiery tensions that are rising as the main political parties fail to reach an agreement to form a coalition government."

Prominent politicians also said in interviews that the delay in forming a government could force the assembly to take an extra half-year to write the permanent constitution, pushing the deadline for a first draft well beyond the original target date of Aug. 15. That means the delay could significantly throw off the timetable for the establishment of a full-term democratically elected government.

The television feed from the meeting was discontinued after about 20 minutes, presumably to spare the bickering politicians the embarrassment of public scrutiny. A key point of disagreement: who will get the coveted job of oil minister.

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  • Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:10:02 AM EST
    Given the number of competing interests within the Iraqi body politic, I'm actually somewhat relieved by this. If they were smoothly laying out a new government with no hiccups, I'd be worried that something was wrong or someone had gained the upperhand to such an extent that they were railroading everyone else. This probably isn't all that different from our own founding, and I'm sure they'll work it out in the end. Thanks for the update.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:19:00 AM EST
    Oh yeah..oil minister...aka chief embezzler.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:25:37 AM EST
    This makes me long for the good old days of Saddam. At least he had the trains running on time.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:32:45 AM EST
    The issue of the oil minister pertains to the question of who controls Kirkuk. The Kurds want the ministry, they want Kirkuk and they want autonomy.Oh and they want to keep their well trained militia. The other issue that is holding things up is how much of a role is religion going to have in the governement. These are not trivial issues given the disparate make up of the Iraqi people and the long history of difficulties between groups. I am sure that Bush is encouraged by all this confusion and chaos because it allows the US more time to get the outcome they want.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:42:13 AM EST
    DA, I was referring to the "shouting match", not the closed session, but that's agood observation. Does anyone know if the constitutional convention was open to the public during the entirety of its duration?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:49:39 AM EST
    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:51:37 AM EST
    This makes me long for the good old days of Saddam. At least he had the trains running on time. LOL. Typical liberal democrat comment. Never mind the chemical gassing of thousands, the trains ran on time. What a sad pathetic party you have become. Over under on the next democrat President is at the year 2016. I'll take the over....

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:37:02 AM EST
    mb..lighten up, I believe it was a joke. And judging from some of bocajeff's posts, he's far from a typical liberal, I think he's more of a sensible conservative. As opposed to the unsensible variety, such as yourself. Or have the fundamentalist crazies got you so scared you can't take a joke? jpaul...you beat me to it. I was going to say that there was no way the aristocrats of the delegation would allow any commoners to sit in.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:42:18 AM EST
    This so called government if not paid for by bush and business will come-apart within 5 years or less. hey people its not Europe and the people are not European, its the Middle east its a Different culture a different civilizaion and a different way of doing business with each other! And yes our boys can buy some time of peace, but in the end it will only come out bad for us all, when some peace loving Muslim mass murdering terrorists set-off some H-Bomb inside one of our cities down the road of loving peace..god help the poor fools see the light of day. thank god death only comes once. But lets face facts that is what bush and business are aspiring toward along with bin laden, hey bush where is bin laden? at home with your wife? see the light people.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#11)
    by Linkmeister on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 10:59:58 AM EST
    Billmon weighed in on the difficulties of forming an Iraqi government. Read to the bottom and pay attention to the cited sources.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:37:25 AM EST
    one knows their trolling when one responds to Fred D's "informational rhetoric".

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:48:54 AM EST
    mb...we agree on something (gasp!), no Hillary in '08. I'm rooting for...As of yet unknown independent, unbeholden to special ineterests, protector of freedom in '08! I know, I'm dreaming.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 11:52:36 AM EST
    mb...we agree on something (gasp!), no Hillary in '08. I'm rooting for...As of yet unknown independent, unbeholden to special ineterests, protector of freedom in '08! I know, I'm dreaming. Well, we actually don't agree, b/c I don't think Hillary could win the general for a second, so I actually am pulling for her. As for who your knight in shining armor is, I have no clue (maybe Byah from Indiana?). The way I see it, either Rudy or McCain is going to have a cake walk in '08, and hopefully stay in power for 8 years. Now if we get stupid and nominate some right wing religous nut, then all bets are off.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:16:45 PM EST
    Forget about Rudy, the jesus-freaks who hijacked your party will never vote for him.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 12:36:30 PM EST
    won't make a darn bit of difference this so-called country won't last until '08 before the Plan in implemented wise up people the nurse with the purple birthmark that darn little laura bush clone she's going to rev0oke my keyvboard privileges again

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:31:56 PM EST
    Maybe what we need here is a bit of long perspective. If we would have harshly scrutinized the daily goings-on of our own Constitutional Congress, back in 1787, as we are scolding the Iraki Congress, we would have never gotten off the ground floor and given up. Let the Iraki sort their issues on themselves, and not kill their nascent process before it is fully matured.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:45:37 PM EST
    Comparing what is going on in Iraq today with what went on here in 1787 sounds oh so nice and comforting but is a lot of nonsense. The first major and obvious difference is that Iraq is occupied by a foreign country which does not have the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart. Second, Iraq as a country consist of various factions who have fought for a very long time. There is a lot of hard feelings and scores to settle. Setting up the government must take these factions into account as well as potentially splitting up the oil assets. It seems unlikely that the Kurds will give up control of the northern oil fields and may not give up their demand of control of Kirkuk. In addition the US does not want a strong governement thats why they wrote the TAL the way they did. I hope it works out but realistically a civil war is also possible.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    "I don't believe the Founding Fathers had to meet in a 'closed session', which is what happened here." Much of the 2d Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention was held in closed sessions.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:37:07 PM EST
    I, by no means implied that the Iraki Constitutional Assembly is full of Jeffersonian Disciples. My point is that we ourselves had just as acrimonious and divisive schisms and factions which threatened to derail our nascent constitution. Your arguement on the impossibility of democracy being unable of forming due to our occupation of Irak falls just as short as many of your half baked arguements. Need I remind you of West Germany, Japan and Korea? All three countries we occupy to this day. Japan and Korea never in their history did they have come across democracy before, but they have made it work. Why your blind pessimism on Irak? Oh yeah that's right, you are pessimist because it happened under the watch of a president from the other team.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:43:25 PM EST
    Kdog, thanks for the defense, though I'm actually quite liberal.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:50:03 PM EST
    My point is that we ourselves had just as acrimonious and divisive schisms and factions which threatened to derail our nascent constitution.
    Either you are being purpsoefully disingenuous or you know nothing of what is going on in Iraq. Secondly, I never said it was impossible, you just want to characterize it that way in order to attack my arguments. The difference between Iraq and Germany is the difference of why we were/are in both countries. Very superficial comment on your part. Of course the alst part is a blind attack given that you never responded to the specifics in my post. Why am I a pessimist; from a report on the recent conference at the Babylon hotel
    For the first time, Sunni Muslim sheiks are publicly exhorting followers to strike with force against ethnic Kurds and Shi'ites, an escalation in rhetoric that could exacerbate the communal violence that already is shaking Iraq's ethnic communities. "The Americans aren't the problem; we're living under an occupation of Kurds and Shi'ites," Sattar Abdulhalik Adburahman, a Sunni leader from the northern city of Kirkuk, told a gathering of tribal leaders last week, to deafening applause. "It's time to fight back." ... "The Kurds are asking for Kirkuk. Later on they will start asking for Baghdad," said Sheik Abu D'ham, a Sunni tribal leader from Kirkuk who fears assassination if his full name is published. "It was Saddam Hussein who gave the Kurds too much, more than they deserved."
    link again you just write out empty phrases demonstrating no knowledge of the issues facing the Iraqi people.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:05:42 PM EST
    Why your blind pessimism on Irak?
    Germany/Japan/Korea -no insurgency -no internal/civil strife -modernized economy/cultures (-Korea) -absent religious ferver/fanaticism -political control returned to citizens (never gonna happen in iraq) -clear goals (if you lied to get in their, probably lying about why your actually there) ?Why your blind optimism on Iraq?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:12:46 PM EST
    Forming a government in Iraq, ok here it is, some guy at the top of that new government is in talks with the Red Chinese for that new nations oil, do you understand what is happening my children of light and love? here is what will happen, news from the future...today the U.S. Was disbanded/demobilize, and the troops in Iraq have been eaten...think that is funny it can happen, lets all hope the troops don't become food for the locals, or rape victims..this can happen and if our bush keeps his love of the third world ideals it will happen...what to do? buy land outside the cities, remember the iraqis are making friends with the chinese reds and the reds have the nuclear weapons. have fun in the third world, if you don't see what a chinese nuclear weapon can do to your day.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:32:58 PM EST
    MB, I believe the general consensus around here is not to take Fred too seriously, as in responding to his posts... Soc, I believe you're a pessimist because you cannot help but slaver for a GWB defeat, regardless of what it costs anyone else.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 03:36:31 PM EST
    Gery Owen, Read the accounts on the stuffy "literally" closed door sessions in the summer of 1787. Have you been to Independence Hall? To be there in the pre fan days in the middle of July, phew! And my favourite: Soccerdad. I made my first post with hope of bringing new perspective to the henny-penny comments of the "doomed" Iraki Constitutional process. I am sorry that your depression has closed out all sense of reality. The process will be hard and tortous, and may or may not succeed. As nothing under this sky is foretold. But just because there is a flare up of discontent amongst the factions, do not throw in the towel and shut this process off.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 04:31:19 PM EST
    So,we're using the colonial-period metaphor now,as opposed to WWII.. Its good to change up once in a while,but,have you wingers made sure this has been cleared with spin-central? Lets not abandon the "Greatest Generation" too quickly,it has alot of resonance. Ace - Dissing the kettle again. But thanks for reminding us that with Bush its always about "cost".

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:00:16 PM EST
    I find this usage "just like children" quite offensive. Iraqi is not the US House, where everyone goes home to intact families and communities at the end of the day. This is a country that has been violently invaded, killing 100,000+ people, after 1 million people died in the last decade from sanctions. This is a country that has had an entire city of 300,000 people depopulated, with 40% of the buildings leveled to the ground. When the few patriots in the German parliament resisted Hitler's seizure of the gov't, they weren't being 'childish.' They were fighting to prevent a criminal destruction of democracy that resulted in 10 million plus human beings being destroyed. TChris, I like your work in general. But this characterization is far beneath your talents. Those are full-grown human beings fighting hard to spare their communities and their country from the CIVIL WAR that is Bushliar's USPNAC plan from the start.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:04:04 PM EST
    OUT - Germany had resistance for about a year. It was dealt with very harshly. Plus, Germany's infrastructure had been totally destroyed, as had Japan's. In addition, Japan had a "divine" leader who said "surrender." South Korea was invaded by North Korea, and then the ChiComs, and had, basically a somewhat benign dictatorship for years and years, but there were plenty of dissenters., demonstartions, etc. It was also almost totally destroyed by the invasions. Read some history. SD - Come on. Since you have commented numerous times that the US is an evil country, a comment shared by OBL himself, and since you have commented that Bush is a war criminal, I just don't see you actually pulling for Bush to win.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:55:30 PM EST
    PPJ - always with the misrepresentation and attacks. I see you have yet another post completely devoid of content containing only snark and attack. congrats your streak is alive. When you can't counter the facts attack. Thing is everyone here knows your game and what you're about so keep it up. BTW I wouldn't pull for Bush, but I would gladly put that aside for the end to the slaughter in Iraq.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#32)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 05:58:04 PM EST
    Oh Ace that goes for you too. Again no content just attack and discredit. Whats the matter no facts. gee I'm surprised.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:03:55 PM EST
    Soccerdad, On behalf of PPJ, I appologise for shining a bright light to the recesses of your misguided postulations. Sorry if the selfevidence of your positions are ugly on to yourself.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:16:24 PM EST
    I am sure that Bush is encouraged by all this confusion and chaos because it allows the US more time to get the outcome they want. Soc, the Neocons already have the outcome they want: permanent U.S. military bases in Iraq and U.S. Corporate contracts rebuilding Iraq and managing the oilfields. The rest is all minor details.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:21:43 PM EST
    Boquisucio Always full of your self aren't you. You used that line the last time you had absolutely no facts to back anything up. Since you have yet to respond with anything resembling an argument as to why Iraq will succeed (It may or may not IMO) I can only surmise that you are yet another of the empty headed flag waving wing nuts who believe that saying something makes it true.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:29:54 PM EST
    Tampa Student I would disagree to the extent that the security is so bad that they are unable to pump the oil right now. But having invaded Iraq they did manage to end the contracts to China and Russia to modernize the oil fields. So keeping them out of their hands is a big victory and eventually they will probably start making the money they want. The only possible problem would be if Sistani got tired of all this nonsense and told the Shias to hit the streets and protest the US.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:44:36 PM EST
    Don't surmise anything Soccerdad. You know what they say about ASSumptions. Many in this page are eager, exultantly expecting, you might say, for our country to fail on the Global War on Terror. Happy will be the day for them when hand over to our enemies a bill of our defeat. That has been the view of your happy camp since for the last 85 years. Sentiments for which are abundantly expoused in the posts above. All I've stated is "Hold On a Minute". It may look ugly at the moment, but such is the nature of a Democratic system of government. Please tell me of a Democratic country which has not gone through a similar process of internal turnmoil. When you relish on the prospect that the Iraki government may collapse into chaos, you align yourself with same Wahabbist Terrorist that want you and I dead. In your blind resentment for the current adminsistration are you stooping that low? Sorry for stating the obvious, but how did you arrive to that position with a clear conscience?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:54:55 PM EST
    The U.S. will do whatever it takes to maintain their current gains. Additional gains are all "on the margin" at this point. The next prize on the Neocon agenda is securing the pipeline. Sans intervention (or threat of direct intervention) by a potent foreign opponent, the bases will stay. The U.S. media will filter the negative press (i.e. our soldiers being picked off by terrorists/guerrilas) and keep control of the populace here at home. As you correctly point out and/or infer, it is the Iraqi-"government" granted rights to those oilfields that is "of value". Any regime hostile to that will immediately be declared rogue no matter how benign and quickly demonized/sanitized. The administration will work with any legitimate or outlaw regime necessary to ensure that those contracts remain unhindered. Actual near-term production isn't a requirement -- why do they need it -- they're posting ever growing profits. This is a long term strategy on their part.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    Many in this page are eager, exultantly expecting, you might say, for our country to fail on the Global War on Terror. Whenever anyone comments about the merits of "the global war on terror," there is no point in debating them. The definitional assumptions are too far off. A quick interpretation of it is roughly, "Anyone with reservations over U.S. foreign policy supports terrorism, either directly or through a desire to hinder it." Anyone not able to see through the political nature of that label isn't worth the effort expended to debate the minutia of it.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:20:48 PM EST
    Don't surmise anything Soccerdad. You know what they say about ASSumptions.
    Gee and i used to think you somewhat intelligent. My bad!
    Many in this page are eager, exultantly expecting, you might say, for our country to fail on the Global War on Terror.
    The old strawman argument. You say they are going through turmoil yet don't discuss the specifics, wwithout doing so you're just so much hot air.
    When you relish on the prospect that the Iraki government may collapse into chaos, you align yourself with same Wahabbist Terrorist that want you and I dead. In your blind resentment for the current adminsistration are you stooping that low? Sorry for stating the obvious, but how did you arrive to that position with a clear conscience?
    This obviously is complete rubbish and another attack on my motives and credibility. But since you can't make an argument, are apparently unaware of the facts on the ground in Iraq what else do you have left? appaarently nothing. Did your mommy buy you a Thesaurus for your last birthday?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#41)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:22:49 PM EST
    Tampa
    This is a long term strategy on their part.
    yes you are right.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:23:40 PM EST
    Let's not forget that BushCo was the one that insisted that there be a 2/3 majority to form a government. The Republican Senate wants to use the nuclear option because they cannot get 60%. How did BushCo expect it to work in Iraq when the 3 parties are as different as Republicans and Democrats?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:55:40 PM EST
    Soc, I call 'em as I see 'em. I simply describe your behavior and you then say I discredit you. You don't need me to discredit you; all I have to do is point to your behavior. Jim did the same thing on this thread. Jondee, "cost" as in lives. Don't blame me if you're so single-minded, you cannot remember that words can have more than one meaning.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 09:37:28 PM EST
    "I simply describe your behavior" The ad hominem at the thin edge where no facts stand.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:53:06 AM EST
    Oh please, government in Iraq, lets stop fantasizing. Only monkees & morons can buy that. It's either draft a bunch of young Americans to die to continue this charade or declare victory and get the f out, immediately. Forget the bases and the oil, pipe dreams, and I think you know what I mean.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:17:33 AM EST
    Ace - yet another post without content - you're on a roll

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:08:52 AM EST
    Plus, Germany's infrastructure had been totally destroyed, as had Japan's.
    not absolutely true! destroyed that is, from history, quite familiar with the subject as actual fact, not revisionist, "live with the history you have, not the history you wish you had". would provide you some links but you wouldn't enlighten yourself, so your understanding and mine differs, no surprise there.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:20:01 AM EST
    Paul, the facts are to be found in your rereading (reading?) this thread. The irony, Soc, is when you attempt to defend yourself, you commit the error again, e.g., your "my bad" post above.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#50)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 10:35:02 AM EST
    Ace -still got nothing i see. Vague, content free statements ascribing mistakes to me are laughable. Got a specific point? Didn't think so.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 12:08:20 PM EST
    soccerdad... "The Americans aren't the problem; we're living under an occupation of Kurds and Shi'ites," Hey...... thanks for that quote... So now the rest of us will get a break from you complaining about how America is "occupying" Iraq?

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#52)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:14:36 PM EST
    Here is some further insight into the political process - the claim is that the Sunnis are moving further away from being involved in the governement

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:35:33 PM EST
    Ace & BB: boys, didn't your mamas ever warn you to never argue with a Stalinist, or a pointy-headed lefty college prof, or an engineer who always thinks he's right, and especially not with all three rolled into one? Talk about the trinity!

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 01:55:09 PM EST
    Ah the right is out in force. faced with posts containing information as to the actual situation in Iraq and its effect on the political process, they respond as all wing nuts do with attacks on the messenger. Now if I'm so wrong, or my sources are so wrong then it should be easy to refute them with other facts and/or interpretations. I've gotten to a point where the more empty headed, neocon loving, factually challanged, Bush loving, alternate reality, bubble people show up and call me names, the more certain then ever I am that I'm on the right track. The thing these people hate the most is information and facts. Their only weapon is attacking the messenger.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:02:18 PM EST
    Soc, you're beautiful when you're indignant.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 02:54:34 PM EST
    PPJ - I dont recall anyone here ever saying "America is an evil country". Is this one of those noble lies that the neocons supposedly believe in, or just the regular garden variety? That kind of thing dosnt do much for your credibility.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 03:52:07 PM EST
    Well Soccerdad, I appologise for arriving to the wrong conclussion that you were salivating for a US defeat in Irak. That obviously is not your position. Otherwise you would not offhandedly dismiss it as if it were made out of hay. That seems to be your pat answer to any view contrarian to yours. Now then, what is given that I was so mistaken above, please detail your position on Irak. And tell me how much daylight is there between your position and that of Zarkawi. Maybe we can all learn a thing or two by the end of this evening.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#58)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 05:20:36 PM EST
    Boquisucio My position on Iraq has been clear if you have been paying attention. Just just another empty headed necon, no one has provided any factual counterpoint. And whats even funnier is that today for the most part I have just provided links with only a couple of sentences or a quote.
    And tell me how much daylight is there between your position and that of Zarkawi. Maybe we can all learn a thing or two by the end of this evening.
    Obviously written by some one without anything of substance to say. Just trying to bait me. From these kind of statements I can only conclude that you have no desire to learn anything or even debate anything. The other thing I find funny is that one of the most vocal critics of Bush has been Pat Buchanan. So to say all the critics are left wing wierdos is just nuts

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:17:43 PM EST
    No, some of them like Buchanan are right wing weirdos.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:27:20 PM EST
    SD - I note you didn't deny my comment. Out - All of Gwrmany's major cities were destroyed. All of Germnay's major industries were destroyed. All of Germany's agricuture was destroyed. The distribution system was nil, the legal system didn't exist and the utilities were destroyed. If you think that is incorrect, then you have no hoistorical knowledge. SD - Answer Boq's question. You can't dance away from it.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:34:50 PM EST
    PPJ and which vacuous comment would that be? Boq - when did you stop screwing your mother

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 06:49:30 PM EST
    Jeralyn should delete that last post from Soccerdad. That was uncalled for. You act like the complete swinish boor you accuse everybody else of being.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#63)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:00:40 PM EST
    Duece, You're right it was inappropiate. But once in a while you just get tired of having crap dumped on you. There's really not much difference with Boq's question, mine was just more explicit. But i suppose I'm just supposed to sit back and take it Well too bad.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#64)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:09:03 PM EST
    Jeez, Deuce, how many times have posters told soccerdad things like, his arguments look a lot like OSBL's, or he just hates America? All of which ignores/avoids thinking about what he actually writes. This category of vacuous posters very much includes Bos.... Look within. Indeed, I'd day SD has been quite restrained overall. Over the last few months nobody has been targeted more frequently nor, I must say, more stupidly by our resident righty trolls.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:26:55 PM EST
    Soccerdad, I am still waiting for you, in your own words to postulate your position. Not by the use of a proxy (i.e. National Review, SanFran Gate, etc.). If you are too afraid or embarassed to openly ascribe to their point of view, please tell us. I indeed, have followed your links, and though meritless to pick their postulations apart. None which I read do not contradict my original post on this thread: to please give the Iraki constitutional process time for them to hash it out. Those links were filled to the brim with nothing but doom and gloom. Which lead me to my second post: Why the pesimism; what is the agenda driving behind such poor outlook? I can only conclude that their motivation is to put down our efforts in that country. Now Soccerdad, are you going to give me a position on your own word, and not demure to a link in cyberspace? You are smart enough to let your beliefs stand on their two own feet. I find nothing funny about that jackbooted Buchanan's disonance with the Prez's policy. Buchanan belongs to the Nativist/Isolationist wing of the party. GWB belongs subscribes more to a Kissingerian wing. You are confusing Extreme Right Wing with other intra-party schisms.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:33:52 PM EST
    I was composing while you were flinging feces. Why resort to so low tactics? Are you once again finding yourself in a self painted corner? Or are you begging to be taken back to your trouncing of March 8th? Il Manifesto's Appeal to Free Giuliana Sgrena Thanks for the hugs.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 07:49:31 PM EST
    Glanton, A man, by its words is known. To to hold a position very similar to that of our Enemies, makes those who adhere to it, complicitous (either conciously or not) to those wishing us dead. It's that clear.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#68)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:02:15 PM EST
    Except that soccerdad has in no way espoused the philosophies of our enemies. I'm damned sick of honest criticism of U.S. foreign policy being framed by you people as somehow traitorous, or friendly to terrorisim. OBL obviously hates our foreign policy, but it's bred from an innate hatred of us; it seems he wants us to die, period. One can and one does say hey, let's stop it with the imperialism, let's be careful not so quickly, so cavalierly send our soldiers to kill and die, let's not let money and oil trump lives in our policies. One can and does say that and in doing so one behaves patriotically. Dubya donning that flight jacket and wearing that smug ass grin though he has had to risk precious little in his cushy life, and risked nothing in all of this, acting like a big hero: that was offensive, royalist, anti-American. And Bush is only the foremost example of a very large military/industrial complex that threatens the lives and liberties of us all. But don't worry about it Boq, just keep demonizing dissent, keep sucking the corporate titty: "stay alert, and stay with Fox."

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 30, 2005 at 08:09:10 PM EST
    Glanton, Would love to engage you on your post above; sadly I have to log-off now. How 'bout tomorrow morn'. I'll be glad to pick up where we left.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:33:38 AM EST
    Gee Willickers! Glanton is "damn sick..." Glanton, Boq is just the messenger, pointing out what is plain for any reasonable person to see when he compares your stated position to that of America's enemies. How you "feel" is simply not an issue here. Get your act together and decide who and what you stand for, and then take the consequences.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#71)
    by soccerdad on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 05:48:05 AM EST
    Boq since you cant seem to ask without insulting me you can go to hell. My position has been clear with 100's of posts. You on ther other hand have nothing except insult, attacks and flag waving nonsense. You are no one to demand that I explain anything siunce you and Ace and PPJ don't care about debate but only care about smearing those who oppose you. Of course this is the standard mode of operation of the fascists currently running this country. So you can take your faux moral superiority and put it where the sun don't shine. To answer you would be to validate your existance here something you don't deserve. There have been only a few I have taken such a stand with. welcome to that elite lists of hypocritical self-important, pond scum. Don't like my tone tough I don't care You do not deserve better.

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 06:26:52 AM EST
    Soccerdad, Me thinks that you have given up debating points, and have nothing but rage inside you, when faced with your inability to cogently stand-up for your beliefs. Sorry to make the truth so ugly for your

    Re: Forming a Government in Iraq ... or Not (none / 0) (#73)
    by glanton on Thu Mar 31, 2005 at 10:08:57 AM EST
    With government bootlickers real dialogue is obviously impossible. "You're criticizing the President, criticizng US policy, you're a ter'ist!" Who would have thought living breathing people could fall for such drivel? Ace keep developing your bid for moron of the month. With a day left you and Randall Terry are running neck-and-neck. Boq: Bizzarely, what you accuse soccerdad of doing is precisely what you're doing. How can you not see that? Go back, read posts slowly, observe what has been said and by whom.