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Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals

by TChris

Having seen little success in its efforts to persuade courts that it is above the law, the Defense Department is now "considering" a plan to obey the Constitution. A draft plan is circulating that would reform the military tribunals the administration uses to prosecute suspected terrorists at Guantánamo Bay.

Those changes include strengthening the rights of defendants, establishing more independent judges to lead the panels and barring confessions obtained by torture, the officials said.

The proposed changes would make the military tribunals more closely resemble traditional court martial proceedings. Advocates of the plan want to avoid further losses in the courts as the administration defends its stubborn refusal to give detainees fair hearings. Will an administration that has so steadfastly opposed due process reconsider its position? Don't count on it: Dick Cheney is standing in the way.

The administration's willingness to restructure the commissions, which have been a central part of its strategy for fighting terrorism, is uncertain. Some officials said they considered the proposals premature because a lawsuit challenging the legality of the commissions is now in a federal appeals court.

In addition, some of the White House aides who supported changes to the commissions have recently moved to new jobs, leaving behind a small but powerful group of officials, led by Vice President Dick Cheney and his staff, who have opposed changing to the commission rules unless forced to do so by the courts, officials said.

"There are a number of folks who would like to make changes," one Pentagon official said of the rules governing the military commissions. But, the official added, "Cheney is still driving a lot of this."

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  • Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 06:48:34 PM EST
    TL states,
    Will an administration that has so steadfastly opposed due process reconsider its position? Don't count on it: Dick Cheney is standing in the way.
    TL, aren't there other reasons why the admini is stalling on the issue of human rights. Negating the administration's human rights abuses to Cheney's smirking obstructionism seems too simplistic. Bush is the one who is (**supposed to be**) in charge. Given the administration's record, and the complexity of the issue, simplying saying the VP is at fault may miss the point.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:16:19 PM EST
    The evil empire resurrected.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:21:02 PM EST
    The non government needs to do a-lot of cover-up's and needs to remove its own evil actions from the light of day. cheney with bush want to reform the system to cover-up the coming mass murders, of its own civilians, and both need time to make more scapegoats for the political prison system. this is not really about what you think it is.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:42:19 PM EST
    I suspect the reform will have to do with protecting our own people from measures that are deemed unlawful

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 05:57:47 AM EST
    Dick doesn't give a Ch*ney

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#6)
    by wishful on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:56:45 AM EST
    Dick Cheney: the politician who voted AGAINST Head Start. His daughter (the straight one) had a position created for her in the State department. What's the salary we are giving to her? The Cheneys: definition of greed and meanspiritedness.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:35:22 AM EST
    Oswald Cobblepot at it again. I don't say this about many people, but I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:00:38 PM EST
    Love Cheney, perhaps America's most important Vice President ever. And a quote to remember:
    To strike a proper balance, Westerners must ask themselves what happens in case of error about the Islamist threat. Mistakes enhancing national security leave innocents spending time in jail. Mistakes enhancing civil liberties produce mass murder and perhaps a Taliban-like state (with its near absence of civil liberties). Which emphasis do you choose?


    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 12:56:33 PM EST
    "To strike a proper balance, Westerners must ask themselves what happens in case of error about the Islamist threat." Apparently Cheney's answer is to invade a country that posed no threat to the US, torture & kill their civilians, lie about it and try to cover it up and then threaten the other countries in the neighborhood. cheney is a war criminal and profiteer and should be tried in an international court.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    "Mostest importantest vice president ever." And ever. And the mostest smart and wyse too.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:09:40 PM EST
    Apparently Cheney's answer is to invade a country that posed no threat to the US, torture & kill their civilians, lie about it and try to cover it up and then threaten the other countries in the neighborhood. cheney is a war criminal and profiteer and should be tried in an international court. Yeah, it's going sooo badly over there, isnt't it? I mean, you could call him a war criminal, or you could call Bush and Cheney the greatest emancipators since Lincoln. I read today that yet another country just instituted democratic reforms. All the contries undergoing democratic reforms, and it has nothing to do with Bush and Cheney? Tell that to yourself over and over and you might even start to believe it... Bhutan unveils new constitution The 49-year-old king came to the throne when he was 16 The Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan has unveiled a new constitution that will transform the absolute monarchy into a two-party democratic system. King Jigme Singye Wangchuk says the draft will be sent to all 530,000 citizens, asking for their views. The proposed 34-article constitution outlines the role of the monarchy, clergy and the duties of the people. Bhutan's chief justice told the BBC a referendum would be held at the end of the year to ratify the constitution.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:11:20 PM EST
    In all honesty mb, I'll take mass murder over tyranny anyday. I cannot in good conscience allow innocents to be imprisoned for my "safety". We can be relatively safe and preserve our civil liberties and the rule of law at the same time. Would you feel differently if the president declared you a "terr'ist" and detained you without due process?

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:21:33 PM EST
    Would you feel differently if the president declared you a "terr'ist" and detained you without due process? Since it's been a few summers since I vacationed in Afghanistan, I'd say the chances of me being detained aren't high. On the other hand, since we haven't been attacked since 9/11, I'd say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep up the good work Cheney! Cheney in '08!!!
    To strike a proper balance, Westerners must ask themselves what happens in case of error about the Islamist threat. Mistakes enhancing national security leave innocents spending time in jail. Mistakes enhancing civil liberties produce mass murder and perhaps a Taliban-like state (with its near absence of civil liberties).


    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:22:19 PM EST
    Yeah, it's going sooo badly over there, isnt't it?
    MB, Hitler would have been a war criminal even if he had won. It is going so badly over there... FOR ALL THE DEAD PEOPLE (including soldiers who were not given basic lifesaving armor per order the Pentagon). Feeding tubes - Not a problem in Iraq. They don't have any. There are lots of ways to promote democracy, MB. The jury isn't even close to in on this one and most everyone is glad that Saddam's gone. Even with the remote chance that Iraq becomes as successful as AFGHANISTAN (*choke*) end's don't justify means. If our compliance with the Geneva Convention and our own constitution would have left Saddam in power so be it. I don't care as much about Iraq's government overreaching it's mandate than I do about ours doing the same.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    Or as they proudly say in New Hampshire..."Live free or die". If mb was writing state slogans, my guess it would read like..."F*ck freedom, protect me from the enemy du'jour at all costs!"

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:25:30 PM EST
    Tell the innocent men in chains "it ain't broke"

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:31:12 PM EST
    mb, if I may, what part of the country do you live in? Unless it's NY, LA, DC, or a select few others, do me a favor and stop worrying about terrorism.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:33:29 PM EST
    "Yeah, it's going sooo badly over there, isnt't it? " Why yes it is: 30 US soldies dead so far this month Contractor casualties about 200 civilan casualties this month and "far from abating, the monthly death rate in 2005 continues to rise, and that the number of media-reported incidents involving the deaths of civilians and captives in the three months to March 2005 [376] is more than double the number for the same months a year ago [140]."

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:34:38 PM EST
    Check out the state dept's comments re: arrests for ethnic cleansing in Darfur. Warning - choking hazard!!!
    Deputy State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said Khartoum had been asked previously to rein in its militia allies and stop the bloodshed in Darfur. "In the past, nothing has been done to hold anyone accountable," he said. "Our view is that if you want to have real accountability for the crimes that have been committed in Darfur, there has to be an international mechanism for that," Ereli told reporters. "Based on their past performance, one cannot expect the government of Sudan to fulfill that responsibility."


    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:36:32 PM EST
    There are lots of ways to promote democracy, MB. plenty of ways, but only one that works: force. Let's see, nothing changes in the Middle East for years. Mass populations are essientially enslaved by tryanical governments, and yet you people would just have it all go back as it was before. You think we could have negoitated the Taliban or Saddam out of power? Not even you nut cases think that. Shame on you people for so willingly lobbying for the continued slavery of the people of the Middle East. Only George Bush (and Cheney) had the guts to change it. And massive democratic change is exactly what is going on over there...

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:44:16 PM EST
    Time will tell, don't bust a nut just yet brother.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 01:49:05 PM EST
    Oh and Afghanistan? One in four Afghans is unemployed. Warlords remain in control of vast regions. The government only controls the capital, and a low-level insurgency grinds on. Afghanistan is now the world's largest producer and exporter of opium. . You have a funny definition of democracy

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:02:01 PM EST
    There are lots of ways to promote democracy, MB. plenty of ways, but only one that works: force.
    MB, your spewing ahead of yourself. Your comment is ridiculous. If force is the only way to promote democracy then Reagan's "isolation and containment" policy for the USSR was a complete failure - was it? Kennedy's abstention from invading the Bay of Pigs is why Cuba isn't democratic??? Keep talking, MB... you keep proving our points...

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:06:17 PM EST
    Shame on you people for so willingly lobbying for the continued slavery of the people of the Middle East. Only George Bush (and Cheney) had the guts to change it.
    Oh Yeah. As long as we're not talking about Saudi Arabia, right? And Pakistan is a free democracy? Is that why we're selling them a crapload of Military Equipment? If you want to know how Bush's "Vision of Democracy for the ME" is going to play out... read a little known thriller called "The History of Western Civilization". Or take a course on Military strategy at West Point. Otherwise feel free to meet me at this Blog in ten years (from my lips to the cyberGod's ear, Jeralyn)to continue the discussion of Bush's "success". Bet it lasts until the next election.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 02:08:26 PM EST
    BTW - does anyone know why I can't see the thread on my MAC at home?

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 03:50:23 PM EST
    mfox - The containment policy was right for the Soviet Union, which was a nation state that could control what went on within its borders, right up and until it started to fall apart. The ME is another story. Iraq could not, although Saddam killed enough people trying to control it. SA is better`at it, but it certainly appears that they made a lot of trade offs with various terrorist groups, as has Syria, Iran, etc. So the containment doesn't work the same. What you really need is for the states themselves to change, and by changing, having the new regime, or a reformed "old regime" (i.e. Libya) clean out the terrorists. That means, in somecases, invasion, if the internal pressure doesn't work. Some improvement has been made. Lebannon, Palestine and Egypt exhibiting progress. BTW - All of this was spelled out in Bush's '02 and '03 STOTU speeches.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 04:09:45 PM EST
    mfox, Of course not. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others are not democracies. That is beside the point. In an ideal world, we would only support and foster budding democracies. Regretably, there are very few emerging Swedish-styled democracies to go around. And though we may want to encourage them wherever possible, we must align ourselves with less desireable allies of convenience... Or would you prefer us wage The Global War on Terror, with 1.6Billion Muslims instantly polarized against us. Oh that's right. How silly of me. You'd rather we not prosecute this war at all. You would be happy as a clam if we'd just unilateraly give up and go home. That's called surrender. But I digress; Our first objective in the agenda is to decapitate those governments that have aligned themselves with Terrorists - Terrorist which have murdered us in the past, and will do so again if given the chance. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria. Secondly, we are to establish stable governments, which will not pose a threat to us again. Preferably under the mould of Western Democracies. If that offends your sensibilities - TOUGH. If you know of a better way of destroying terrorism and the cess pool whence it brews, I'm all ears. Oh and Sailor, if back in '46 we were to define the future of West Germany by resentful, destroyed society that it once was, we would have not sheppherded it into the economic miracle that is today.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 05:43:16 PM EST
    Points very well made, Boq. I hope your common sense prevails here.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 06:37:52 PM EST
    Our first objective in the agenda is to decapitate those governments that have aligned themselves with Terrorists - Terrorist which have murdered us in the past, and will do so again if given the chance.
    Then why Iraq? SA did more to sponsor terrorism than Saddam
    Of course not. Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others are not democracies. That is beside the point
    . Nice try, Its exactly the point. pakistan is not a democracy, they sold nukes all over the worl they have harbored and still do terror organizations within its borders, yet we are going to sell them F16's.
    allies of convenience...
    yes like Osama who was out ally against Russia, or Saddam who was our ally against iran Just keep repeating the same stupid mistakes.
    Oh that's right. How silly of me. You'd rather we not prosecute this war at all.
    straw man
    Or would you prefer us wage The Global War on Terror, with 1.6Billion Muslims instantly polarized against us.
    Thats the way its going now thanks to your leader. Every day they hate us more and more.
    Secondly, we are to establish stable governments, which will not pose a threat to us again. Preferably under the mould of Western Democracies.
    Translation - client state Its the same old neocon crap spewed by someone who can at least write

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#30)
    by Johnny on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:18:36 PM EST
    Yeah, a few months is not enough to judge a government. It has been what? 15 years since the Soviets found the glory of capitalism? If, in ten years, Iraq is the hub of a democratic middle east, I will personally eat my fishing hat. Which will be twenty years old by then, and extremely unpalatable. I would rather not eat it, but I bet I have to.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#31)
    by Sailor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:33:51 PM EST
    "Oh and Sailor, if back in '46 we were to define the future of West Germany by resentful, destroyed society that it once was, we would have not sheppherded it into the economic miracle that is today." uhhh, Germany attacked us. They, and we, declared war, we had international courts to try them. We and they nominally upheld the Geneva Convention. And, in case you haven't noticed, West Germany doesn't exist anymore. But cheney is still a war criminal and profiteer.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:42:39 PM EST
    Soccerdad, my friend - long time no hear. Then why Iraq??? Irak made it very clear on whose side of the fence it layed. Or do you need for me to rehash his long consorted history with the ME's miscreants? On Saudi, you are 110% right. They, along with Iran are the main contributors to Palestinian Terrorism. And don't get me started with Wahabbism, whom the Sa'ud Dynasty so well craddled into existence. But where SaudiArabia and Iran, depart, is their stated Foreign Policies. Iran's official policy for the past quarter century, is the destruction of the Western World. The same can't be said on the Saudis. Thus, different different tools are applied for these two countries. Paralell to the Saudis we find the Pakis. Though much of their society has been infected by Wahabbism, their government is a strong allied to the US. Without them, our efforts in Afghanistan would be much difficult, plus they keep the right flank of Iran in check. Again different tools for different problems. On your jab on "Client States": If by Client States you mean countries by which the US has good relations, then by extension Mexico and Canada are also "Client States". If your want to use that derrogatory state suit your self You seem to have a shallow knowledge of RealPolitiks. It is all distateful, but is the only way to survive in International Politics. As Niccolo Macchiavelli once stated (paraphrased), if you don't like it go join a monastery. Oh and Dr. Ace, Thanx for the kind words. Though in this Alice in Wonderland Cyber World, don't think that rationality is a common trait.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 07:56:16 PM EST
    BOQ very articulate way of saying absolutely nothing. You know perfectly well what i mean by client states. quoting Macchiavelli! yes you are a true believer. Do you have a little altar to the memory of Leo Strauss in your bed room? Like i said just another neocon. You can put lipstick on the pig but you still have a pig.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:04:57 PM EST
    Soccerdad, At one time Japan and Korea were two puny weaklin' countries. Due to the US propelling their development, they are both bulkwarks of East Asia. Care to illuminate us on your definition of a Client State? And why would the above would be so disgusting? Strauss??? don't follow him. But on Nick, he has been much maligned for telling perfectly describing the ugly truths of the Affairs of Men, both Domestically and Foreign. He was very clear that if one can't stomach it, one better join a cloister and be happy with life. Not much has changed in politics from 1550's till today. Thanks for the LUV!

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#35)
    by glanton on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:15:02 PM EST
    Boquisucio: Macchiavelli also maitained little pretenses along the lines of Good versus Evil in what he described. It was pure calculation, with none of the lying fluff that we get spouting out of the Administration through the MSM and straight into the ears of a gulliblke mass. If you want to tell the dirty truth, then tell it. But don't cite Niccolo out of one side of your mouth, and then come off sounding like a character in _Lord of the Rings_ through the other.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 08:21:29 PM EST
    Man - it like peeling an onion in here. There are many layers beneath the ones just chucked. I brough Nick to this discussion to illustrate the lack of understanding that many in this page have for what is the driving force in Politics. What does that hafta do with your babble on TheAdminsitrationMSNLordofTheRings.....?

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 06:48:21 AM EST
    Just keep repeating the same stupid mistakes.
    Ex-freakin-actly soccerdad. Stop supporting and supplying weapons to covenient tyrants and dictators, and we will stop getting bitten in the ass 10 years later. Learn from history.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 07:10:29 AM EST
    All of this was spelled out in Bush's '02 and '03 STOTU speeches
    really, do tell! it's extremely difficult to discern some truth, when it's covered/rapped in a pile of horse manure.
    ...with 1.6Billion Muslims instantly polarized against us.
    this has already happened, maybe not all 1.6b but 1b for sure. u.s. crediability and influence is shot, and this admin is incapable of restoring it. the ME countries are riding bushCo out in their correct belief that america will correct their policies once the thugs are removed from authority.
    ...we would have not sheppherded it into the economic miracle that is today.
    take off those rose colored glasses, or raise your standards for miracles!
    ...to illustrate the lack of understanding that many in this page have for what is the driving force in Politics.
    as you more accurately understand these dynamics and feel compelled, even driven to enlighten poor pitiful us. repeating: Its the same old neocon crap spewed by someone who can at least write, but it's still crap.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:37:57 AM EST
    Good thread, folks, Bosq, you make some very relevant points. I have read Machiavelli and The Art of War. Don't assume that all who shudder at the Call to Arms are pacifists. Going to Starbucks - my bastion of wasteful self-serving capitalism to self-medicate myself against the pressures of modern society. Hope to respond when I get back. At any rate glad to see real stuff discussed. May not agree but will always appreciate the chance to vet my ideas against opposing opinions to keep me thinking!

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 08:39:46 AM EST
    Something to chew on while I'm Caffing up... What would Machiavelli thought about George Washington's decision to limit the terms of his presidency? Are we glad GW didn't (Oh my God - GW???? Oy.)have a chance to check with Niccolo?

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 01:27:33 PM EST
    mfox, You are right; the ones who shudder the most at the thought of war, are those who bear arms. For its them themselves who know first hand the horror of it all. Wasn´t it Sun Tzu who stated (paraphrased) that a war won without fighting is still a victory. If you can achieve your political goals without firing a shot, we are all better off from it. And just like you, I come here for thoughful interactions. I have little interest in visiting echo chambers. You come out of it just as empty as you came in. On our 1st Prez & Nick. I think Nick would much understand and support GW's decision. The only thing Nick did was, analyze and diagnose the Political Environment in which he lived. Ultimately, he was neutral and detached from it all. If he would have seen the advances in Enlightened Political Thought of the 18th Century, he would have much applaud it. I don´t know whether Nick was in GW's library. But it wouldn´t surprise me if it was. The way GW handled his Presidency over the Constitutional Congress, Whisky Rebelion etc, was Machiavelian on its own way. He just had the common sense of balancing the use of strong muscle with that of the needs of the greater good. For that, he was very advanced indeed. Just my humble opinion.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:33:08 PM EST
    Well said, Bosq. Every successful politician has to have a bit of Machiavellian pragmatism to succeed. That doesn't mean throw social progress out the window. It means that us progressives have to play in the same sandbox with those for whom the end justifies the means.

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 29, 2005 at 02:41:56 PM EST
    We are in the same page, mfox

    Re: Cheney Opposes Reform of Military Tribunals (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Apr 08, 2005 at 08:55:27 PM EST
    I see civil war.