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Friday Open Thread

It's been a long week. Your turn.

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    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:02:47 AM EST
    Frist... should have his license revoked.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:12:34 AM EST
    I hate it when my team loses in the NCAAs.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:34:52 AM EST
    This bloggers prayer: O lord we beseah Thee Put all of us out of Terry's misery. Amen

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:45:20 AM EST
    Ed...I don't pray, but I'll drink to that.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 08:58:34 AM EST
    Follow the fed and homes, witin two years the cost of homes will go way up and the price will fall but at the same time the downfall of the money market funds, which will cause a down fall in the over all system of world currency, in other words you won't like it at all when it falls apart. watch the money market system and watch what Bush will do over the next years with Mexico and its ruling oligarchies, the deal is in and you are out, third world here we come. buy land out of the south west of the dead U.S.A. you will need a place for food/home and your kids.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:07:55 AM EST
    buy land out of the south west of the dead U.S.A. you will need a place for food/home and your kids.
    There's no water here, Fred. May I suggest somewhere else (with water), where you can grow something.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:08:32 AM EST
    Reuters UK is reporting that the British Parliamentís Science and Technology Committee is recommending that parents should be able to choose which of their fertilized embryos are implanted. This opens the door for, among other things, sex selection. I applaud this recommended deregulation and am frankly a bit baffled to see it come out of the UK parliament, a body that thrives on regulation for the sake of regulation. Bravo. It isnít too difficult to imagine screening embryos for desirable traits other than a deficit of simple genetic errors or diseases. We may very well see a time when parents can birth the most intelligent or physically well child they are capable of creating with their own genetic material. Lord knows we can do with fewer sick and stupid folks.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:22:08 AM EST
    Lord knows we can do with fewer sick and stupid folks.
    Do you wsnt to come over my house and tell that to my son with spina bifida?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:43:22 AM EST
    Wow pigwiggle, you really amaze me. Just when I thought I have heard some really thoughtless and insensitive comments on this site I read yours. The Nazis would have loved you, what with their eugenics program to get rid of all the excess "sick and stupid folks". Bravo for exhibiting your brilliance for all to see.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:46:19 AM EST
    I sincerely hope pigwiggle was joking. Also, I hate it when your NCAA Men's basketball team can consistently make it to the tournament and then get thumped by a chump one or two rounds in. Said chump teams being the Manhattan Jaspers, Utah, Syracuse, etc. Sound familiar OU fans?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:49:03 AM EST
    Jesus' general gets it right again LINK

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:49:21 AM EST
    Not to speak in pigwiggle's defense - but I thought she or he was simply referring to the "lunatic fringe" of which we are so fond. In the very words: "We may very well see a time when parents can birth the most intelligent or physically well child they are capable of creating with their own genetic material. Lord knows we can do with fewer sick and stupid folks." Oh! However wasn't it 'their own genetic material' birthing the 'most intelligent or physically well child' - which began the entire process of birthing anything. Leave it. Just go do errands. I have a nephew with William's Syndrome, as well as one with PKU - but the William's Syndrome kid is the better teacher. I predict Terri Schiavo will die on Easter this year and be a saint same time next year.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 09:51:53 AM EST
    Did the Tennesse women win the other night? Did Pat Summit make IT?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 10:01:22 AM EST
    As well as Jon Stewart, soccerdad. Crooks and Liars....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 10:15:18 AM EST
    In case anyone is interested, on my web site, I have the transcript of the Schaivo family doctor who falsely claimed that he is a Nobel Prize nominee being confronted about it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by nolo on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 10:31:20 AM EST
    Scoobie, that is f***ing awesome. "Never got to the part about Terri Schiavo" indeed.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    In the midst of the first snow in what must be a million years, our crabapple trees are going to explode into full bloom today or tomorrow. One of my favorite parts of living in this neighborhood is that it turns into a flower paradise every spring. Out tiger lillies are coming up. Spring reminds me that all things are cyclical--good times always follow bad eventually.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:09:42 AM EST
    Christ, everyone get back in their respective seats. SD- No, I donít need to come to your house and insult your son. In true form you interpret my post in the most negative way you can. What surprises me is that you are willing to lay out what has got to be a very person pain in the process of spinning my post. What I am advocating is simply giving folks the choice to screen for such disabilities long before the embryo becomes a person. Something I assume most, perhaps even you, would have jumped at given what they now know. Sherman- Eugenics is very different than screening an embryo. The eugenics movement promoted sterilization and even murder. However, if you are one of those life begins at conception folks, feel free to disregard this line of reasoning, in that case we can skip reason all together. The Naziís systematically killed 6 million Jews, nearly a million Catholics, and those that would protect them, wow. Kitt- Fringe? If you were given the choice of a trivial procedure so that your soon to be son or daughter wouldnít need painful surgeries to correct a hip deformity, would you have it? If an equally trivial procedure would correct your soon to be daughters congenital vision disorder, would you? What if it was simple far sightedness, or misaligned teeth? Would you have trivial procedure before they were born or would you wait and have them wear glasses for life or make them suffer braces for a few years or painful orthodontic procedures? A simple procedure at conception or years of glasses and braces; these are only cosmetic issues but one I think most prospective parents will gladly preempt, not simply the fringe. Folks, we do need fewer sick people. Every day millions work and millions are spent to do just this. And we do need more smart people; smart folks are responsible for things that make the world better for everyone. Christ, hands up, who wants more sick folks and more dull folks? Please.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:09:52 AM EST
    Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes, and the grass grows by itself
    Zen proverb

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:17:21 AM EST
    Your lack of knowledge on the subject of eugenics is not surprising. What you have suggested with screening for undesirable traits IS very much a tenet of the eugenics movement. Go ask any geneticist or biologist about this completely discredited practice and I do believe you will be shown to be as wrong as possibly could be. You have no right to tell people to calm down when you opened the flood gates with your insipid comment of there being too many sick and stupid people around. Aren't you a little concerned that you just might fall into the latter? Eugenics did more than promote sterilzation and murder. Your glossing over many of the tenets of this practice lets the Brown on your shirt show up a little better.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:27:04 AM EST
    pig, my interpretation was a valid one. Your statement that an embryo is not a person would be judged wrong by many, many people including Catholics and the right. Second, I can't escape getting the tone from your post that you consider the sick or stupid less valuable and therefore less vhuman. An attitude I have come across all too often. Lord, I know how much you hate to spend your money on taxes that go to help others. When our town was having serious financial problems, people I didn't know would blow the horn and give me the finger as i helped my son get his wheelchair on to the special van. See the superintendant had stated that the school funding crisis was due to all the special ed kids.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:32:32 AM EST
    Chill! It's Friday! Re: Pigglewiggle, et al. People make their own choices. I was lucky to give birth to a son who turned out to be nearly perfect (in my humble opinion but then I'm his mother). However, if he had been born with - say - spina bifida, he'd still be the same great Rob, just handicapped. However, it's a tough call and if science can help bring more healthy children into the world, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not eugenics to try to get rid of genes that cause problems. Look at illnesses like tay sachs (spelling? not sure) or sickle cell. Interesting science find was that Mendel wasn't absolutely correct, a new generation can skip the parent generation and go back to the grandparent generation for better genes. Interesting thought that biology makes those choices. (That was on the Wired site, by the way.) As for me, I'm going to put together some Italian Easter Bread and get back to an outline I need to write for one of my professors. I decided to go back to college at the ripe old age of 56 and am nearly done - at least the AA degree in legal studies. My son was impressed that I would do so. It's interesting going to class and being older than virtually all of the students and most of the professors but it makes things interesting. My perspective is different. So, have a good weekend. Soccerdad - have fun with your son. I know you love him.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:35:29 AM EST
    I was lucky to give birth to a son who turned out to be nearly perfect (in my humble opinion but then I'm his mother). However, if he had been born with - say - spina bifida, he'd still be the same great Rob, just handicapped.
    Well said, perfect.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 11:54:48 AM EST
    Soccerdad: I'm so sorry to hear that about your son. How old is he? Were they able to close his spine completely after birth? Is he mobile? My best friend and neighbor had spina bifida. He grew up to be successful psychotherapist, though he did have to have leg surgery every year or so to keep him mobile. He just took it in stride--it had always been that way, so he just looked at it like getting an annual tune-up. His lover was an ornithologist. They were just the sweetest guys I ever knew. Several years ago they were killed in the death trap that is the Suzuki Samurai while on vacation in St. Louis. The day after the exposé aired about how dangerous they were, they got in a textbook crash. They rolled it on its side (which it was very prone to do) trying to avoid hitting a cat, which in and of itself is survivable; but then the car behind them struck the bottom of the overturned Samurai, ruptured the fuel tank, and caused an explosion that killed my friends, the other driver, and a pedestrian. Anyway sorry for the awful story, the main point of it was spina bifida is hard but manageable, and your kid's gonna do great! There's another sad corollary to the story--Despite strict instructions in his will to have his belongings donated to Hospice of St. John and the St. John's Bazaar (which primarily cares for and raises money the care of AIDS patients), his lover (the ornithologist) carried the lease on their apartment, and as such his family was able to come in and take everything for themselves. His will was totally ignored by the courts based on some bizarre interpretation of common property (which married people would have) combined with some twisted logic that gay people aren't of "sound mind", and thus had both of their wills thrown out in court. A similar thinig happened to my friends Lee and Rod. Lee was killed in a car wreck. Lee's name was on the lease for their apartment. Despite his will leaving everything to Rod, Lee's family, with whom he had no contact for almost 20 years, was able to legally come into Colorado, kick Rod out of his home, and steal all of his stuff. The only thing he got away with was his 20 year old van that he used for work, which mysteriously got torched a week later. The moral of the story: Without marriage, gay people have no rights to protect their estates, even when all the requisite wills and palimony agreements are in place, because courts will throw all that stuff out in deference to greedy living relatives who come in out of nowhere and stake a claim. I've hopefully averted this (though given the acceptance of my parents and sister I would hope that there would be no issue) by having my family sign my will as agreeing to its terms. I can't say the same about my partner, who hasn't spoken with his hateful, bigoted family in 10 years. So in the case that he becomes close to death, we have a secret unwritten agreement with friends that they will mobilize to clear out our belongings to protect me so that I don't come home from the hospital someday to find the locks changed as happened with Rod. I also have some advantage in that the mortgage and the cars are in my name, for that very reason. Of course without marriage we have no divorce, and if Craig and I were ever to break up, only my good nature would prevent me from legally taking everything and leaving him homeless with nothing but the clothes on his back and the money in his 401k. That's why we spent $1500 working up the palimony agreement, to gain some protection that married people (and even unmarried heterosexuals--this is a common law state) intrinsically have. Basically the palimony agreement looks like a divorce agreement--it spells out who gets what. Of course every time we buy anything major we have to do an addendum and get it notarized and file it with the lawyer, all of which cost money. Being gay really sucks. Not because it's shameful or icky or any of those things, but because we have to spend so much time and money protecting our lives, and even with all that time, money, and effort, we get nothing close to what straight people get by paying $35 for a marriage license and going to a 24-hour drive-thru chapel in Las Vegas at 4 a.m. I'm all over the place today. Read that mess and tell me there's no such thing as ADD.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by desertswine on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    Larraine - Congratulations on going back to school at 56. That is no small accomplishment. I hope that you're having fun with it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 01:02:58 PM EST
    well then pig go back to school and learn to write more clearly. Pushing the blame off on someone else as usual

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by soccerdad on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 01:39:30 PM EST
    Soccerdad: I'm so sorry to hear that about your son. How old is he? Were they able to close his spine completely after birth? Is he mobile?
    Michael thank you so much for showing a genuine interest. He is 20. They closed his back and inserted a shunt for hydrocephalus on the night he was born. He has had a total of 28 surgeries, multiple shunt revisions, both hips reconstructed, a spinal deteathering, and an ArnoldChiari II malformation decompression. When he was young he could walk with braces and used a wheelchair. When he was about 6 my insurance changed so that we were allowed only $500 for durable medical. He needed a new chair $2000 and new leg braces $3500, couldn't afford both went with the chair and he never walked after that. I work for a place that was self-insured and was told by someone in the know that the real reason I was denied tenure was that my son had cost the school $450k by that point. The schools suck. We had a teacher actively discriminate against him and would not stop even when directed by the principle. After 3 months and escalation of both sides, the Federal department of education office of civial rights cited the school for violation of civil rights. The schools response was to recommend that my son who has an average IQ be sent to a residental school for the severely retarded. Back to the state, to make a long story short the school was disciplined by the state and they had to pay my lawyers fee. All we wanted was that he be teated like a regular kid, 2 hrs of PT a week and an aide to help teach him math 1 hrs/day. Thats it. he went off to college this last fall got pressure sores on his feet, came home in Nov and they are still months away from being healed. Hoping he'll go back next fall but right now he's very depressed. I know some people think charaties are the be all and end all. I sent my son off to summer camp for 2 weeks at an easter seals camp. # dyas after arriving, he came down an ashphalt path. They had put a pipe across the path and but concrete over it. He fell out of the chair. they took him to the hospital where they xrayed his knee and called and told us he was fine. 10 days after the accident he came home and his leg was swollen to 2x its normal size. He had broken his femur. Even though he kept telling them it still hurt anytime he had to transfer to or from his chair they did nothing. It turns out another kid had broken his ankle 2 weeks before. So I'm angry and call easter seals and scream at them. Finally I told them that they were responsoble for the accident and lack of proper medical care at the camp and i wanted compensation. So I asked for a racing wheelchair for my son about $1500. and that I would sign a release against further damages. They refused so I sued them and won $80k. So it cost someone an extra $78.5k because they were @sses. A lot of people forget that the Federal government got involved in these issues for a reason and if they were to stop demanding that states comply with some basic standards, the states under great financial strain already would not provide the minimal services they do now. Sorry for the rant

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 02:05:11 PM EST
    I'm surprised that the right hasn't figured out that they should FREEZE Terri S., in the hopes of keeping her out of heaven for a millenium. She can be easily brought out in her cryo-tank for Fourth of July celebration, with a team of semitruck refrigerators and several Hummers with 'Terri On Ice' logos. Come and See the Dog-faced Girl! Take your picture with the Bearded Lady! Come on, kid, get 'arrested' bringing Iced Terri some water, just like the Child Martyrs did back in the day. That styrofoam cup has more IQ than poor Terri, but who's counting. Surely not P.T. Frist and his carny Geek Tom DeLay. It's a Money Store for them! She's the newest Devil Baby.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 02:49:39 PM EST
    P.W - You sound like Dr.Faustus.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by glanton on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 02:58:39 PM EST
    "I am overly tired of this constant vulgar misrepresentation." Now, that's some dramatic blogging! Like Richard III meets Edgar Allen Poe.....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 03:04:39 PM EST
    Just read on Opinionjournal.com that a large portion of the MSM has filed an amicus brief stating that before the investigation goes any further in trying to find Miller and Cooper's sources on the Plame case, the court should first seek to determine whether, in fact, any crime was committed, and further stating that there is ample evidence that no crime occured. Oh how the worm turns!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 03:18:32 PM EST
    Without marriage, gay people have no rights to protect their estates, even when all the requisite wills and palimony agreements are in place, because courts will throw all that stuff out in deference to greedy living relatives who come in out of nowhere and stake a claim. Michael, Is gay marriage is the only answer to the problems you stated? I wonder if all the time and effort that's been put into gay marriage had instead been put into finding legal solutions to the specific problems you outlined whether you'd have solved your problems years ago and engendered a lot more public support than you are getting now.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    Sarcastic: Are you saying that you would vote for a comprehensive law that gave all of the legal rights and responsibilities to gay people as long as it isn't called "marriage"? Because every time we try to pass a little law to, for instance, grant partner benefits to city employees, the religious right descends upon us with "God hates fags" and "AIDS cures fags" signs, screaming and yelling that granting gay people any relief at all is a "slippery slope" towards polygamy, bestiality, child molestation, violence, rape, and incest. And I'm not just talking about Fred Phelps. Case in point: Senator Rick "man-on-dog" Santorum, and 98% of the elected Republican officials (i.e. everybody but Arnie and Rudy and one or two others). You're confusing "all the time and effort that's been put into gay marriage" with all the time and effort that's been put into little things as you suggest, which is immediately followed by cacophonous blowback from the right-wing. People in Dade County want a little equality and they vote for it. In response we get Anita Bryant's nationwide "save the children" campaign. People in San Francisco want one gay supervisor, so they elect Harvey Milk. Dan Brown assassinates Harvey Milk along with Mayor Moscone, and in swoops the right-wing to fund the "Twinkie defense". The people of Denver, Boulder, and Aspen want a little equality so they vote it in. The response? The relocation of Focus on the Family to Colorado Springs, which it calls "ground zero", and a massively funded religious-right campaign to pass a constitutional amendment removing all rights from gay people called Amendment 2. It took us years and millions of dollars to work that through the court system before the SCOTUS found it unconstitutional. Do I need to go on? You don't know much about the issues or the history, or you wouldn't have asked the question. I'd be happy to provide some reading resources.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 04:49:30 PM EST
    Michael- As of late there have been fewer movements of the politico universum more repugnant that the proposed constitutional definition of marriage, state and federal. As passionate as I am about absolute parity of the law for h*sexuals, I am likewise passionate about the same deference for folks who would like to have the similar arrangement with multiple partners, and yes, even their own siblings. I understand you mentioned them only in the context of anotherís argument against h*sexual parity, but I have noticed many gay folks are disturbingly quick to condemn these others (the polygamists and close relatives) to the same misery they are trying to avoid. Itís like the sexual minorityís version of an Uncle Tom; ready to throw a compatriot under the bus to show all the straight folks that they arenít freaks like the polygamists et al.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 05:18:10 PM EST
    PW: I am with ya, I don't care if a woman wants to marry ten men or if a sister wants to marry her brother, none of my gd business. Fewer laws, stricter enforcement. They can start with eliminating all drug possession laws.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimcee on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 06:04:32 PM EST
    SD, prayers with you and your's and your child's psychic strength are impressive. Pigglewiggle, I understood your initial point but it was poorly expressed in your post. Eugenics studies are creepy but might possibly help future generations. I also believe that because there are those that need the compassion of others that society as a whole is the better for it. Without compassion being human is diminished somewhat. M. Ditto, I don't care about Gay marriage and I wish more people felt that way because then you would be able to marry freely. I do not understand societal objections to Gay marriage but I would guess they're more generational than anything else. And yes there have been anti-gay attacks in the past and probably will be in the future but I think that there is a slow but steady acceptance of Gay unions. Paul in LA, you are a rather callous individual, joking at the disabled's expense. And by the way that was a really bad segue into your usual anti-war screed. Perhaps a beer and a joint would help. TalkLeft, thanks for the forum.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Kitt on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 07:26:58 PM EST
    Was just over at Americablog, the FBI has already arrested someone for soliticing offers over the internet to kill Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer (you know, just one of the "activist judges."). Along with a call from the Freeper moderator that 'calls for violence will result in suspension.'

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Mar 25, 2005 at 10:42:35 PM EST
    PW: I have no problem with polygamy, as long as it isn't just a religious cover for the sexual slavery of underage girls as it has been (and still is) practiced in certain areas of the country. There are difficult issues that arise however. Who gets the house when one of the participants decides he or she wants a divorce? If someone dies, how do you prorate the distribution of the estate--based on how long various people have been in the relationship? Based on the number of kids? Who gets custody? Who has to pay child support, and how much? Say we have a group of six, and one of them is in Terry Schiavo's position. Who gets to make the decision on what to do? Majority rule? Who breaks a tie? It's such a tricky issue that, respectfully, I don't think it's fair towards gay people to discuss gay marriage and polygamy in the same context--whether you are for or against either.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 01:41:59 AM EST
    "Posted by jimcee: "Paul in LA, you are a rather callous individual, joking at the disabled's expense." Disabled? She isn't disabled. She is regretfully passed away. Only her body still survives, and no amount of bs from winger politicos is going to change that one whit. "And by the way that was a really bad segue into your usual anti-war screed." Another nonresponsive pile of merde from you. Those are facts in evidence. NO iodine program. WHY? No inspection program, WHY? No protection for our ports, no protection for chemical balls, and two OBVIOUS acts of treason with no explanation forthcoming about why it was a good idea to fry our spies. You are a liar, pal. Your critique of my 'screeds' is basically you saying that facts are above your head. You're as demented as poor Terri S. Use your noodles or lose them. And either respond ON POINT, refute or justify, or keep your yap shut--you're wasting air.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 10:07:11 AM EST
    PIL - There is an inspection program. There is port protection. Both may be inadequate. But making attack like over statements won't get you many allies. As to iodine, I assume you are saying that we need this in case of nucelar attack. I know little about this. Perhaps you can provide a link detailing the benefits, how to administer, when, etc.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 02:10:33 PM EST
    You don't know much about the issues or the history, or you wouldn't have asked the question. I'd be happy to provide some reading resources. Well, I'm somewhat familiar with the issues, though not, of course, to the extent that you are. There have been some gains over the years to resolve some of the problems you outlined in your original post as I'm sure you know. Although to you, I would imagine, any such gains have been woefully small and slowly attained. My main point was meant to be that, for instance, some teams get their touchdowns by chipping away at the other team bit by bit, while others go for the all-or-nothing 'hail-mary' pass. To my eyes, gay marriage is a hail-mary pass. As you probably suspect I don't support gay marriage, but, as you may or may not realize, I, and many other 'in-betweeners' are in favor of you finding other legal solutions to the problems you posted. I do wish you well.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 03:03:38 PM EST
    SD, I have a couple of friends born w/ SB, they are healthy, happy and productive, I wish you the best. Ditto, my belief is that the state has no business in marriage at all, just the contract involved for settling divorce, inheritance etc., states should do contracts, churches should do weddings. I never understood how 'gay marriage' affected straight (not that there's anything wrong with that;-) marriage. Seems like it's just a rallying call for the nuts who want to criminalize homosexuality. For myself, I can't see how what any consenting adults do in their bedroom is any of my or the state's business. justpaul, a crime was committed, just (probably) not by the reporters. Since bush refuses to command his minions to 'fess up, the only recourse is to go after the receivers of the info.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimcee on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 03:37:35 PM EST
    Paul in LA, You sir are an oik. Your answer to any other view than your own is vindictive and shallow. To make jokes at someone's suffering makes you a classless A--H---. Your insults only show how limited your mental capacity is and your child like attacks on others illustrate your lack in depth of intellect. Your style is poison for the Left and you will always be on the loser, far fringe. I would continue but you're just not worth the keystrokes but please keep it up, keep writing to TL because I'm always interested in what others think, even you. And again, you are an oik.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 06:59:46 PM EST
    Michael D - Re polygamy. I think you will find the issues you mention just don't come up. Which tells us a lot about the practice. As someone who has commented that I don't care who marries who as long as they are both adults, I think gay's are missing one of the key arguments. Marriage came about because it stablizies relationships and restrains overt actions, thus it is good for society.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Mar 26, 2005 at 08:42:17 PM EST
    Sailor is dead on. The state should be in the business of enforcing contracts, not providing a bonanza of benefits through regulation of products provided by insurance companies, etc.; and further discriminating as to who may or may not qualify for these benefits. Michael; OK, polygamy may be a bit more difficult to sort out in the event of children and no written contract, medical decisions, and so forth, but how can incestual marriage be any different that h*osexual marriage? Wouldnít it be Ďfair to discuss homosexual marriage in the same contextí as incestual marriage? Of course, but it isnít, and I think there is a bit of hypocrisy at work there. And not just for homosexuals, but all who would support h*osexual parity, but not parity for other more unusual arrangements. Donít misunderstand me, Iím not trying to lay this at your feet. I am hateful and angry at the injustice of this kind of discrimination, but for all abnormal relationships, not just the majority minority.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:21:11 AM EST
    Are comments working?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 01:25:21 AM EST
    TL: MT-Blacklist is wonky: Obviously one of the words or links in the post I tried to submit are blacklisted and so the comment was pended (hopefully), but MT is apparently missing the template it needs. Just FYI. An error occurred: You must define a Comment Pending template. Use of uninitialized value in join or string at plugins/Blacklist/lib/Blacklist/App/Submission.pm line 477.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 05:56:47 AM EST
    justpaul, a crime was committed, just (probably) not by the reporters. Since bush refuses to command his minions to 'fess up, the only recourse is to go after the receivers of the info. No, Sailor, we don't yet know that a crime was committed. Outing Valerie Plame as an employee of the CIA is not, in itself, a crime. There are very specific requirements of her status and the intent of the person who divulges her standing which must be met before this can be considered a crime. The point here is that, to date, no one has shown that she met the required status, or what the intention of the person who outed her was. All we have is an accusation from her media-slut of a husband and a ready willingness to believe everything he says from the MSM and most liberals in the hope that it will hurt Bush. I'm amazed that many of the same people who were willing to accept the argument that 900+ FBI files showed up in the Whitehouse was a "snafu" and not a violation of the law, are so quick to label this a crime when they don't even know the facts. And it seems the MSM, which until now was fully onboard that train, suddenly wants to get off. PIL: Before you bother with your now standard response, cough up some evidence. Provide support for your claim that Valerie Plame was covered under the law in question. Provide proof that the person who outed her did it in an attempt to put her in danger. Otherwise, deal withthe fact that you are arguing nothing more than a weak circumstantial argument based on partisan interest, not fact.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 27, 2005 at 07:32:15 AM EST
    And outing Plame, illegally or otherwise, was not based on partisan interest? And the gerrymanders and ethics twisting that make Tip O'Neill, Tom Foley and Jim Wright look like Jesus Christ...nothing partisan about that I suppose? Republicans everywhere should put partisanship aside, take the advice of their former messiah, and demand some responsibility from their own leaders. Spend less energy pointing the partisan finger at Democrats and demand some reform in your own party before it is doomed to another 40 years in the minority. The only reason you heard anything about the evidence before Clinton got impeached is that he appointed the most partisan, vicious, frothy-mouthed Republican he could find to be the Independent Council. Patrick J. Fitzgerald, on the other hand, doesn't leak every salacious detail to the media, and is well-known for being tight-lipped to the end. In fact, he would be rather stupid to leak anything to the media, since what he is investigating is leaks to the media! So when you make your breathless demand for evidence from someone who couldn't possibly have said evidence, you are committing a logical fallacy by assuming that just because you haven't heard the evidence that it doesn't exist. This immediately following your statement that we don't have all the facts. Just based on the fact that the Special Prosecutor is still investigating, we can infer that at least he believes a crime may have been committed. If he was convinced of the administration's innocence, he would have suspended the investigation. He still has plenty of terrorists and other corrupt politicians to spend his resources prosecuting.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 28, 2005 at 10:19:27 PM EST
    Sherman- You have an instant grasp of my entire knowledge of Eugenics from a single post; brilliant. Much of what was the body of Eugenics has persevered despite its association with some truly horrible and bigoted ideas. Embryos are screened for genetic disorders; prospective parents are now frequently interviewed by so-called genetic counselors. These are reasonable and human practices/ideas, nothing like the forced sterilization of downs children or unfounded claims of African genetic degradation. As I said in my previous post (did you read it?), Iím not advocating murder or sterilization; simply that folks should have the unregulated choice to have the child they want. No prospective parent (I know this isnít rigorously true) sets out to have a child with debilitating medical problems. Ad homonym; how does this serve your point? Not well. SD- Thatís your prejudice. There was nothing in my post to indicate I think sick or unintelligent people are invaluable or sub-human. You really are beyond the pale here. I think the government is wasteful and often the wrong folks benefit. When I write a check to my charity of choice it costs me literally nothing to write it; well, a few moments and possibly a bank fee. How much do you think it would cost for the government to collect that same amount of money and distribute it to the same charity? But, again in true form, you spin it as if I am black-hearted, and further am advocating that dull or sick folks are subhuman. I am overly tired of this constant vulgar misrepresentation.