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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:17:42 AM EST
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Your turn. What's on your mind today?

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    Monday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by susan on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:46:22 AM EST
    Are we really creating a situation where it's us........ and then there's the rest of the world?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 08:17:41 AM EST
    Recommend seeing "Chavez, Venezuela and the New Latin American Revolution", shown locally by your local Intl. Action Committee (IAC). I also recommend "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised", which is a film shot by some Irish documentarians who happened to be in Venezuela in 2002 when the US backed coup attempt failed. Chavez is an interesting man. Funny. He started out in the backcountry wanting to play baseball but found that his only ticket was to join the military academy. He became disillusioned when he and other soldiers were ordered to put down a demonstration by firing "on my own people". It was interesting to hear a leader speak without using words like "rule of law" and "regime change". He just talks about feeding people and not feeding the US drug interdiction machine by allowing the US to use Venezuela as a staging area for Columbian interdiction. "That's their problem", he states. "Our military is for defending the sovereignty of Venezuela". Nevertheless, he also references helping other LA countries throw the imperialists out, which I wholly support, in case any wingnuts want to accuse him of interfering in other countries in the region (the epitome of hypocrisy). So pass on "The Aviator" and go broaden your minds.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 08:33:01 AM EST
    Watching the development of protests in Lebanon set to counter pro Syrian Hezbollah sponsored protests. The initial word is they dwarf the hundred thousand + protesters Hezbollah was able to turn out. Good; I am pleased to see Hezbollah turn up on the wrong side of Lebanese public opinion this time around. Lets hope it stays that way.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 08:50:32 AM EST
    Che- I saw ‘The Revolution …’ a couple (?) of years ago. Hadn’t given Ven much thought up to that point. Read a bit, started following Ven politics a bit more (interesting time, recall and all). I came out of ‘The Revolution …’ with a great deal of respect for Chavez; it has since changed. The politics that have been played with voter registration and Chavez’ thuggery with the opposition media changed my perspective a bit on what I saw in the film. My new assessment; the film is really a good insight into Latin American politics, not the story of heroic resistance of my initial assessment. Perspective is needed before viewing the film; a crew trapped with Chavez through such an ordeal cannot possibly deliver and impartial account, which is fine, I don’t think they should. But it does paint an unrealistically valiant picture of a (almost) fatally flawed politician, at least by a functioning democracies standard.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Kitt on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 08:58:03 AM EST
    How about the 'Motorcycle Diaries?' Anyone seen that? Che?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:03:16 AM EST
    Ashley Smith is a saint.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:07:48 AM EST
    PW, The media that Chavez blasted were controlled by the same tecnocrats that run the Oil and fishing interests. Doesn't it interest you that the anti government demonstrations in 4/02 started in more affluent suburbs, rather than the usual poverty stricken areas? All those demonstrators worked for - you guessed it - the multinationals. Now there are a half million people being fed for free that we never cared about in the past. There are 10,000 Cuban MD's bringing health care to peole who have never seen a doctor in their lives. That's why Chavez is still in power. That is why he overwhelmingly defeated a US backed recall election. The new Bolivarian revolution is in progress. See Argentina, Uraguay, Brazil, Peru, Ecuador. GW (and the CIA/AID/NED)has his hands full in the ME. The economic programs of the 80's and 90's (yes, Clinton too!) were a disaster for Latin America. Of course, a foreign policy of confrontation is much more fun (and profitable) than one of cooperation.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:10:16 AM EST
    Kitt, MD is great cinematography. Also won best original song at Oscar this year. But my favorite was seeing Carlos Santana attend wearing a CHE shirt.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:12:38 AM EST
    RW, You got that right. What a courageous woman.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:14:40 AM EST
    “The media that Chavez blasted” By blasted you mean censored, lets be clear. He has mandated ‘socially responsible’ programming, otherwise revoking broadcast licensing from dissenters. I believe freedom of speech should belong to everyone, irrespective of the amount of money they make or what their interests are.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    Anyone catch the Project for Excellence in Journalism report just released? Some interesting highlights; the media was considerably more negative regarding the Bush campaign, reporting on the Iraq war was as likely negative as positive.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:25:02 AM EST
    PW, I believe freedom of speech should belong to everyone, irrespective of the amount of money they make or what their interests are. Chavez ISN"T restricting freedom of speech. He's clamping down on the MEDIA outlets being funded by outside sources (US government and corporations)that advocate his overthrow.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:15:58 AM EST
    Che, Your passion is wonderful. But your last post is laughable, if not sad. He's not for censorship, but he's only censoring...

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:25:31 AM EST
    Che- Human Rights Watch, among others, has taken a more critical view. Often those championing the rights of the oppressed find themselves dishing the same injustice and brutality that initially spurred them to action; take care where you come down.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:52:40 AM EST
    The LAT has an interesting article about how easily Choicepoint was scammed by relatively low-tech means: Link

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 11:00:39 AM EST
    Ha! The Choicepoint scam reminds me of the Woody Allen story about the Mexican peasant who could barely read or write his name but still managed to bamboozle $14 billion out of AT&T.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by roy on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 11:09:45 AM EST
    Some of the regulars here think the media is biased in favor of conservatives. But apparently they aren't doing a very good job; they were nicer to Kerry than to Bush leading up to the election. Suggested response: unbiased media would have actually shown that Bush is even worse than he seemed.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 11:58:54 AM EST
    Roy, great report thanks for the story. The report if you follow the story provides great insights relative to journalism as a whole. Unfortunately, the report has only been in existence for 2 years and I would argue that incumbents always receive more negative press as a direct result of their policies being scrutinized as commander in chief. I would like to see the same study conducted at the end of Clinton's terms to balance the argument but unfortunately it does not go back that far. MSNBC according to the entire report looks to me as if is the most balanced and fair of all the tv outlets while FOX demonstrates the most bias and CBS coming in 2nd. NBC also looks very fair and balanced. That said, Kerry did not deserve to win the election with a nearly 2-1 advantage in spin.....

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:01:25 PM EST
    I have the link in my 10:18 post.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:08:30 PM EST
    sorry pw, missed your link. Great resource.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by txpublicdefender on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:18:10 PM EST
    RW, Amen! I have rewatched Ashley Smith's interview a couple times, and I still can't believe she is an actual human being. The woman appears to have forgone at least two chances to escape because she thought she could prevent Nichols from harming more people (including killing himself) by convincing him to turn himself in. Incredible.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:20:59 PM EST
    good interview, recommend(+++), why aren't judges like this appointed, Andrew Napolitano could probably be acceptable to most, even though he appears on faux.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:27:19 PM EST
    Wow, what a descent. Bocajeff, Do you have anything relevant to contribute? O/W your comment was masturbatory and a waste of bandwidth. PW, take care where you come down. Or what? Nice continuation of the discussion. When you're out-debated, you resort to threats.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:30:52 PM EST
    Ashley Smith, Incredible.
    yes! a true human being capable of the greatest love, willing sacrifice. i could only hope that my character and faith could rise to such a level in a like situation.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:42:12 PM EST
    Che- “Nice continuation of the discussion. When you're out-debated, you resort to threats.” You misconstrue; I meant, and I thought is was clear form the context, that it is easy for folks to quickly regress to the tactics of despots while excusing themselves as fighting for justice, and further you should take care not to become an apologist for a soon to be despot. Chavez cannot be excused for outlawing descent, even when that descent is seen as antithetical to (in his view) a noble effort. For example, even if the CIA knows without a doubt that a detainee is a terrorist that detainee is still deserving of due process. If you excuse Chavez by extension you excuse the CIA and DOJ.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:51:43 PM EST
    dissent, the usage of "descent" is confusing.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:51:46 PM EST
    If you excuse Chavez by extension you excuse the CIA and DOJ.
    by extension, that’s a long reach, heck an olympic scale leap, but if it makes you feel better.
    ...an apologist for a soon to be despot...
    and i need one of those crystal ball thingy’s all you reps seem to be in possession of, you guys insight into the future is astounding.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 12:57:50 PM EST
    J- “dissent, the usage of "descent" is confusing.” Thanks, I’ve always had a very hard time with spelling.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    800,000+ pro-democracy anti-Syria Lebanese protestors gather in Martyrs Square. Pictures

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 01:10:23 PM EST
    “by extension, that’s a long reach, heck an olympic scale leap, but if it makes you feel better.” Well, I suppose if you are willing to rank and sort the value of fundamental rights. I value free speech and I value due process; restriction of either is repugnant. “and i need one of those crystal ball thingy’s all you reps seem to be in possession of, you guys insight into the future is astounding.” A man who starts his political career by, among other despicable acts, revoking the licenses of any dissenting media outlets is most likely heading the way of many Latin America infamies. By reps you mean republicrat right?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 01:58:44 PM EST
    republicrat
    i'm guessing you believe your views and positions to be more libertarian; "just a republican with a hard-on"!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:04:24 PM EST
    PW, You misconstrue; I meant, and I thought is was clear form the context, that it is easy for folks to quickly regress to the tactics of despots while excusing themselves as fighting for justice, Point taken. It's easy for the written word to be misconstrued, and in these times people are more apt to regard "friendly" advice as something a bit more assertive, or even hostile. I've burned myself at this site but good by posting a passionate comment which turned out as a threat and was dutifully deleted by TL. It was enlightening. So thanks for the advice but I'm a big boy now. I only take sage advice from really old people these days.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 03:13:43 PM EST
    Chechito, Et Alii: Chavez, has alot of gumption and a serious case of in-your-face attitude. About three years ago he came to a South American President's Summit in Cartagena, Colombia. Instead of bringing in the Venezuelan equivalent of the Secret Service as his escort, he brought in a crack team of ELN Guerillas (Colombian Narco-Terrorists). Think of our President bringing into a Chineses Summit, a squad of Tianamen Square exiled survirors as his personal escort. Needless to say, his Colombian hosts were nonplused.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:08:54 PM EST
    "In the First Amendment, the Founding Fathers gave the free press the protection it must have to fulfill its essential role in our democracy. The press was to serve the governed, not the governors. The Government's power to censor the press was abolished so that the press would remain forever free to censure the Government. The press was protected so that it could bare the secrets of government and inform the people. Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people and sending them off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell." Justice Black. NYT v. US. 403 US 713

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:24:25 PM EST
    Bankruptcy advisers are hiring extra staff amid fears that an end to the global credit boom could spark a surge in business failures in the US and Europe.
    LINK

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:50:08 PM EST
    EPA Abandons Lead-Based Paint Protections; 1.4 Million Children and Thousands of Construction Workers Remain At Risk
    LINK

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by soccerdad on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:57:02 PM EST
    Cuts in food programs for the poor are getting support in Congress as an alternative to President Bush's idea of slicing billions of dollars from the payments that go to large farm operations.


    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimcee on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 05:58:47 PM EST
    I am always surprised that there are those who will make excuses for nascent dictatorships. As many in the past, including writers for the NYT, idolised Fidel in the early years of the Revolution there seems to be that same thing going on here with Chavez. Yes I have seen the "Motorcycle Diaries" and it was nice to look at and did show the story of the formative years of "Che". It would have been more informative if they had shown the older Che, the torturer, administering the "coup de grace", a bullet to the head of his political victims, oh sorry, the enemies of the people. It never ceases to amaze me that some people refuse to acknowledge the evil actions of those who they find "heroic" defenders of the people. It is rather strange how many people end up in gulags or dead because it is for the "good of the people". And yes, I do mean Mr. Lounge. People's paradise my arse. Ignorance is dangerous, willful ignorance is inexcusable.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by wg on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 06:10:54 PM EST
    (two items of some importance that been missed here so far) -- They have passed a new, Patriot Act like, law in UK, giving their internal security authorities the power to order isolation (house arrest effectively) of those they deem suspicious. These are administrative powers, no judicial authority of any kind is involved at any point. How did they get them to swallow that Orwellian turd is beyond me. It wasn't easy, it took some 30 hrs to swallow it completely. The good news is that somebody will take it to the European Court of Human Rights where this will likely be declared totally illegal. For the final outcome far better than if they accepted a watered down version as originally hoped for. Let us hope they file it soon, otherwise expect similar powers instituted in this country too. Except that this will likely be administrative indefinite detention in one of those infamous hellholes of ours not a house arrest. Be sure you are on good terms with your local DHS outfits. --- (ran out of room. meant to discuss recent Chertoff's moves)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:04:26 PM EST
    Jimcee, Ignorance is dangerous, willful ignorance is inexcusable. And I believe that your willfull ignorance of the corporate takeover of your country is inexcusable. You are sacrificing your democracy for the convenience of an electric can opener. They suck our economy dry and you parrot their screed. They rape the planet and you nod approvingly. Unbelievable.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 07:16:30 PM EST
    Chechito, Actually, jimcee was right on the money defining Dr. Ernesto Guevara's management style. He was the enforcer of Castro's revolution. As such, the good Dr. had no qualms about taking life of inocents. For many of them, their only crime was that they were Bourgois Reactionaries. Your hero deserves no cuddling.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 09:12:44 PM EST
    PW's Columbia, Univ of Alabama/ U of Ohio, et al Study.... "(The Wall Street Journal, which also falls in this category, was excluded as a specialty publication.) Yeah, that and every other Scripps Howard / Media General mid-metro fish wrap in the Southeast. Then there is the Washington Times, The Tampa Tribune, The Sun Sentinels of FL (Orl, Broward), The AJC, etc. These papers take the same vanilla AP/Reuters feeds, attach biased/misleading headlines to them, and interject resets of biased context irrelevant to the main idea of the current. Great study - thanks for giving me a carefully conducted analysis of the AP/Reuters feeds heavily weighted towards the 4 major left leaning nationals and ignoring just about everything else (i.e. ignoring the entire State of Florida's pubs). In addition, an effort was made to ensure diversity in ownership. Good luck, none exists! I didn't even start about Broadcast Media... Amazing how biased sampling leads to biased results.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Mar 14, 2005 at 10:57:06 PM EST
    Boquisucio, I constantly give references to my information. Please list some links to back up your claims.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 06:27:15 AM EST
    TS- I think the exclusion of the WST as a specialty publication, after all it is financial news, was valid. However, are you suggesting the inclusion would change the results in any meaningful way (local print, local, network, cable)? Condolences; they didn’t include your choice examples of conservative rags, but their sampling method seems reasonable. Sort first by circulation, then a geographic representation, then random sampling. I think the single serious flaw, one you appear to think is an asset, is the effort to include diverse ownership (and by diverse I assume they are talking about US minorities by nationality). We know US minorities tend to vote left of center, and likewise may somehow project their political leanings into their newspapers. “Amazing how biased sampling leads to biased results.” Are you suggesting that your arguments previous to this somehow addressed their sampling method? A random exclusion of a handful of conservative (by your estimate) newspapers is miles short of demonstrating a bias. Further, exclusion of the WSJ will not change the results for local print, local, cable, and network. Face it, the media is staffed with disproportionately liberal folks (this we know) and it influences their reporting. I understand it isn’t quite as liberal as you would like, but you are unrepresentative of the market. I will give you that the news media does seem to be moving further and faster to the right. I think the folks paying the bills are taking note of the success of FOX news and the overall national political climate and have somehow put the squeeze on their editors.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 11:12:20 AM EST
    Chechito, Right after the takeover in 1959, Ernesto Guevara was tasked to cleanse the Cuban countryside from Burgoise Reactionaries (i.e. Middle Class Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers, Shop Owners, etc.) Thus the "Tribunales de Depuración" (Cleansing Tribunals)was instituted. For months, your hero and his Kangoroo Court summarily rounded-up anyone who did not fit the "Proletariat" mould. Hundreds were brought to him, and after a sham trial, were condemned and swiftly extorted to the waiting firing squad. Many were apolitical Middle Class professionals whose only crime was to be in the wrong social class. Talk about social warfare. Many of these sources exist only off-line, as most of the in depth information out there only exists in old-fashioned books. But if you insist, let me give you a brief bibliography. You can peruse them at your convenience. The Wasington Post, Page A18, October 16, 1997 LA NACIÓN, Buenos Aires, 1º Oct 1997 LE LIVRE NOIR DU COMMUNISME, Paris 1997, Edited by: Robert Laffont http://www.geocities.com/matincuervo/Memorias.htm http://www.geocities.com/matincuervo/PUERTAS.html http://www.bayamon.inter.edu/jvilasus/che.html

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by glanton on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:31:12 PM EST
    Doctor: Pulling together as a community to protect the starving and the homeless is not socialism. It is decency: all of us bear responsibility for the most vulnerable among us, if we are a true community anyway. But these days we're less a community than a concrete jungle, so it looks like you're getting your way just fine. But it's a good thing the corporate whores have you to stand up for them anyway, Doc; goodness knows they need all the help they can get, disenfranchised as they are.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:44:38 PM EST
    That's right Glanton, Communism means that everyone must be equaly poor.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 02:44:47 PM EST
    Ace, You think you're free and you're not. You just fit in where it's still OK.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:19:35 PM EST
    Boquisucio, Thanks for the references. I have not checked on the first two as I need to go to the main public library and cross my fingers. The web link that worked is in spanish so I printed the one I could call up and will have it translated. However, I do read some spanish and have not yet seen Guevara's name referred to in this apparent affidavit. Et al, It's not about the man. I won't deny that executions took place post revolution. There were, obviously, many hired killers, professionl torturers and sadistic landowners in Cuba prior to the revolution. It was a Mafia state. Deal with it. They attracted, actually BEGGED for an uprising. They were tried by the courts and sentences were carried out. I dare say that, even if you reject the veracity of the defense of these people, they certainly received more due process than any of OUR prisoners of war. And despite what US propaganda tells you, there was no reign of terror in Cuba after the revolution. The stories of Che personally executing prisoners for laughs are obscene. It's the message. One that wingnuts will never see but enlightened minds cannot avoid. Imperialism is the true enemy of ALL people. We have become one big corporate/consumer state and we're sucking the rest of the world dry for our profits, 401K's and double-absorbent toilet paper. It's obscene.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by glanton on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:28:06 PM EST
    Communism and socialism are both entirely different than what I just described. If you cannot see that I feel sorry for you.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:30:32 PM EST
    Ace - Sniffing out power and getting down on all fours is pre-dogma. Being dogmatic at least requires the rudiments of conceptual thinking - youre still in reptilian survival mode.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 03:40:09 PM EST
    This is the terminally sclerotic inherited paradigm of the "free- thinkers" like Doc:the status quo or "communism". What a visionary, imaginative leap this requires - the whole history of political philosopy reduced to this months National Review or yesterdays Rush show.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 04:04:04 PM EST
    Socialism, as it could be applied today, would resemble Marxism about as much as a Victoria's Secret bra resembles a corset.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 04:22:34 PM EST
    Che, Actually, in a twisted way, I do have respect for Dr. Guevara. At least he was true to his beliefs. Unlike other opportunists, he trully practiced what he preached. Right now I'm ploughing through Compañero: Vida y Muerte del Ché Guevara by Jorge G. Castañeda, Vintage Books, New York, 1997. It's in Spanish and don't know whether an English translation exists. In any case it was written by an author on your side of the aisle, and casts him in the best possible light. You will like it. That being said, and though I do respect him, he doesn't garnish much affection from my side. As the disciplinarian of the Cuban Revolution, he was ruthless.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 05:05:35 PM EST
    Che, Where we depart is your comment about "hired killers, sadistic landowners, etc." Many of those put to death were apolitical middle class shop owners, dentists, accountants, etc., who were railroaded through kangoroo courts. The priest who confirmed me was rounded-up, and put in a soccer stadium, awaiting his proccessing through the Tribunal de Depuracion that was to come the following day. According to him, he could hear the firing squad do its work all throughout the night, right over the wall. What saved his skin, was that one of the guards recognized him as family friend, and absconded him to safety. If you have any doubts about this tale you can contact Rev Enrique A. Mendez S.D.B. in Santurce PR. He'll be glad to confirm. What happend in that period was not Due Process, it was the systematic destruction of the Middle Class in Cuba. A true crime of horrendous proportions.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Mar 15, 2005 at 09:35:00 PM EST
    The stench of faux indignation from advocates of torture by their own military is ovewhelming!!!! Who are the enablers today? Hypocrites.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:42:18 PM EST
    Ace,you as arbiter of "the facts" is laughable at best. You and jimcee,by your obedient,best-of- all-worlds stance towards a "democratic" system that only represents the interests of those who poney up,give the revoloutionaries of the future all the enabling that they need - way to go. Of course,as long as a few crumbs trickle down your way - this week - you'll keep clicking your heels.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Wed Mar 16, 2005 at 02:49:37 PM EST
    As usual in debates, the problem here revolves around framing. Nowadays if you suggest that a community shares certain responsibilites towards everyone, you're a socialist, boom, no questions asked. Of course that's ridiculous. The United States has always been a hotbed of communitarian enterprise, and on rare occasion, the government has been known to actually do something for the destitute. None of this threatens to result in nationalizing industry, etc. If only our government were not totally in the pocket of elite wealth today, we maybe could see a humane gesture or two in our own lifetime.

    Monday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)