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Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 10:50:09 AM EST
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Everybody's going off topics in the comments...and I'm having troubles posting since the site move. My MT interface is barely working. So take over, your topic. Also, leave a message in the comments if you are having trouble with comments or accessing the site. Just keep it clean.

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    Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread | 43 comments (43 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:33:58 AM EST
    Fair trial. 3-1-05 - Police Chief Norman Williams vowed that Rader will “not be tried in the media, but rather in a court of law.” "One of the things I think we need to do now is learn from him," said former Wichita, Kan., police chief Richard Lamunyon. "We need to know why he did it, how did he pick his victims, what drove him." 2-26-05 - The bottom line: BTK is arrested," Wichita Police Chief Norman Williams said at a news conference in Wichita with some of the victims' family members. Not SUSPECT but THE killer. 2-27-05 - And CNN affiliate KAKE, which has investigated BTK for years, reported that the daughter's DNA played a role in the investigation. 3-1-05 The timing indicated she was not visited until after her father had been arrested that same day in Kansas, the Eagle said, suggesting her DNA helped confirm his identity but was not the original break in the case as some initial reports had suggested. 2-27-05 - The man suspected in a string of 10 slayings that terrorized Wichita residents for more than three decades has confessed to at least six of those killings, according to a source with direct knowledge of the investigation. 3-1-05 The local reporting agencies (ABC, NBC, etc.) are saying that the report is false, because Dennis Rader (a.k.a. BTK) has not actually confessed to them. 3-1-05 Relford (son of victim) said he would like to ask Rader how he got that picture and "what possessed him to kill my mother and these other innocent folks out here. He had no right." 2-28-05 But Sunday evening a wire report linked Rader to three additional homcides- it set off a chain of events, including the District Attorney immediately calling the report absolutely incorrect. Chief Norman Williams said right now Rader is linked to just the homicides for which he's being held

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:37:17 AM EST
    I really don't like our system that "outs" suspects prior to sentencing, it really is unfair to everyone. It sounds to me based on what i have read that they have their man, but that is the problem. I should not be able to make that judgement until after a trial. I feel awful for the families of the victims and wish this was handled more privately until post-sentencing..

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:32:18 PM EST
    Does anyone know if you can serve in the military with a felony conviction? Can you point out some resources or where I could find this information. Thanks.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by john horse on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:56:23 PM EST
    There are 2 articles that illustrate the Bush administration's position on human rights. The first is from Mother Jones and is about the abuse of detainees at Bagram air force base in Afghanistan. What I find interesting is that we have denied access to the Afghan human rights commission. Somehow they had the mistaken idea that they have the right to investigate abuses of their citizens that occur on their own soil. The second article was the NY Times article (found via Kos) about the State Department now acknowledging that the Iraqi government is engaging in human rights abuses, including beatings with cables and hosepipes, electric shocks to their earlobes and genitals, food and water deprivation, and the systematic raping and torturing female detainees. To say the least what Bush says and what he practices are two different things. Unfortunately, actions speak louder than words.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by roy on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:56:31 PM EST
    Does anyone know if you can serve in the military with a felony conviction?
    It looks like you can have one felony conviction, or one felony and two misdemeanor convictions, and still enlist. I didn't check, but I have a hunch you won't be allowed to join as an officer. Google has a cached doc you should check out.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:58:32 PM EST
    AP reports 2000 Iraqis demonstrate against terrorism and Ba'athism.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Patrick on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:41:44 PM EST
    Deosn't federal law prohibit a convicted felon from possessing a firearm? Wouldn't that preclude a convicted felon from joining the military? JL, So if he did confess would it still be improper for the chief to report that the killer is in custody? Presumed innocent in a court of law is not the same thing as presumed innocent. One is a requirement, the other is a mistaken extension of that requirement.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:52:28 PM EST
    Patrick, good question. I think that the chief should allow the court to determine if he is indeed the killer as lots of folks have "confessed" to crimes that they were later exonerated from. I would prefer the police enforce the law and leave the determinations to the judicial authorities. That said, it certainly is in poor taste to say that the killer is in custody prior to questioning wouldn't you say? And for the record I don't think the chief of police had any ill intent in saying what he said, I think that he was caught up in the situation. They have been getting close to catching a monster and finally "caught him" so to speak and it had to feel great knowing that good police work past and present had paid off.......But there I go again making him guilty.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:00:44 PM EST
    With democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq , open elections in Egypt, Palestinian elections, Syria turning in terrorists and freedom breaking out in Lebanon it is extremely important that we don't acknowledge that George Bush may be smarter than we thought. Don't even whisper it!!! We need to find something else to complain and snipe about. Let's face it. The economy is doing pretty damn good. Last years GDP had to be adjusted sharply up and we have low interest rates, low inflation and damn good employment numbers. We won't be able to fool the people into thinking that the economy is tanking much longer. Let's put our heads together and manufacture if necessary a new problem. Remember...no need for solutions. It's problems we need . Now get to it. Howard Dean

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:31:26 PM EST
    "...democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq , open elections in Egypt, Palestinian elections, Syria turning in terrorists and freedom breaking out in Lebanon it is extremely important that we don't acknowledge that George Bush may be smarter than we thought." Sun came up this morning too. Thanks, W!

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:41:42 PM EST
    As long as this thread is open, what ever happened to commenter Eclair and the pledge of a $1,000 donation to TalkLeft over the question of budget surplusses? (TL scolded us for drifting off to this in the Oscars threads). Here's the facts, Eclair: According to the historical tables accompanying the 2004 budget, we had and "on-budget surplus of $1.9 billion in 1999 and on "off-budget surplus of $123.7 billion. We also ran an "on-budget" surplus of $86.6 billion in 2000 and an "off-budget" surplus of $149.8 billion. The following year, 2001, the on-budget surplus slipped back into the red at -$33.4 billion.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:50:46 PM EST
    anybody remember our exemplary role in fostering democracy in Hati? Link

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:55:13 PM EST
    Today, the Supreme Court decided that juvenile criminals should not be liable for the death penalty. You know what this means? Al Qaeda will soon be sending 12-year-old pilots into buildings knowing that adolescent suicide bombers cannot get the death penalty in America. What is there to stop fanatics?

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:56:11 PM EST
    of course the Us and its allies have always been truthful wrt to health effects of its weapons. LINK

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:58:54 PM EST
    As long as this thread is open, what ever happened to commenter Eclair and the pledge of a $1,000 donation to TalkLeft over the question of budget surplusses? (TL scolded us for drifting off to this in the Oscars threads).
    Since that discussion basically was on topic, I'm assuming that TL deleted it to save Eclair from having to either pay up a poorly-thought-out bet or waste server space trying to get out of it (I don't claim to know which Eclair would do). I think that was a pretty classy thing for TL to do, so I'm not re-posting the documentation I Googled up that would arguably force Eclair to pay. Anybody who wants it can do a little footwork and e-mail me.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by desertswine on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:59:41 PM EST
    Look Howard! Here's an issue... From the Agonist:
    - (AP) Nordic countries have the lowest levels of child poverty in the developed world, due in large part to their generous public spending on social benefits for families, according to a report released Tuesday by the U.N. Children's Fund.
    On the other end of the spectrum, the United States and Mexico had the worst rates of child poverty in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development - a Paris-based group of the world's wealthiest countries.
    Countries with the lowest levels were Denmark (2.4%), Finland (2.8%), Norway (3.4%) and Sweden (4.2%). At the other end were Mexico (27.7%) and the United States (21.9%).
    Poverty in the US - a disgrace.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by John Mann on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:03:45 PM EST
    Nanci Jo, you're the best.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by roy on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:07:36 PM EST
    Desertswine, the complete article you're quoting is available here. You left out the point about each nation setting it's own poverty line. That makes comparisons between nations misleading at best.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:23:48 PM EST
    The BTK Investigator lovefest news conference on Saturday was a bit of a joke. Lots of camera time for politicians, lots of group hugs and back-slapping, but no information. Personally, I don't think anyone deserves any credit for his capture - if he's the right one. This case is 30 years old, they weren't even looking for him anymore. He would never have been taken into custody except that in March of 2004 he started sending the police "clues", packages containg written hints, personal possesions of the victims, etc. Christ-Almighty, he did everything but send them his address and phone number. So after a year's worth of clues, about one a month, they finally figured it out. I think if it took me that long, I'd be embarrassed to bring attention to it. And that's the way I see it, Signing off from Wichita, home of Nola Foulston and Ken Landwehr, Kansas

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:48:09 PM EST
    On whether BTK can get a fair trial... There are always a significant number of people who don't read newspapers or watch the news. They will have no trouble finding a jury who can be objective. Plus, think of what it would be like if it were all kept secret. To the dungeon with ya! End of story. Talk Left, I must say you run a pretty decent blog. I enjoy most topics and am interested in American Justice. I'd like to see you focus on child support issues (from the man's side). With the family unit in a shambles, America approaches a critical mass... I'm not sure paying girls to have kids and taking driver's licenses away from the boys is going to lead to Utopia. Quaker, I'd love to respond to your query, but have been censored several times already, each time after speaking very truthfully. For some reason, it's a touchy subject with TL. Hey, it's not my blog.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:58:59 PM EST
    Damage, Thank you for your recent advice. Unfortunately, it does not meet my current needs. Please stay in touch.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:46:27 PM EST
    The Afghan human rights commission, What a joke. Thats the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Where were they when the Talaban was in charge and wemen were being slaughtered on the soccer field?

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 04:58:06 PM EST
    Would you like to help Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:11:45 PM EST
    Hey Howard, we are 412 billion in debt. link In the "democracies" you speak of, please demonstrate the freedom those outside Kabul are feeling. Isn't Iraq moving toward an Islamic constitution with politicians with close ties to Iran? Didn't the execution in Lebanon serve as the tipping point for the demand that Syria withdraw? Didn't some guy in Palestine die also? Usually when there is a death of the leader there is some type of placement program but I could be wrong. Low interest rates are the direct result of a sagging economy, unless of course Greenspan has been lying to us all along.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:00:37 PM EST
    Excellent ironic post, Howard. I see Jlvngstn took the bait in perfect form, proving your point handily. Well done.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:13:45 PM EST
    Frontline! Good stuff on PTSD right now; as if you all aren't watching PBS anyway.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Kitt on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:21:59 PM EST
    Being a 'Frontline' fan - the VCR is programmed and ready to roll.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:32:09 PM EST
    "What that means is if you're the Methodist church and you sponsor an alcohol treatment center, they can't say only Methodists, only Methodists who drink too much can come to our program. All drunks are welcome, is what the sign ought to say." President Bush, on his Faith-Based Initiative, March 1, 2005. For more of George Bush's wisdom, see "Today's Mantras".

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:34:26 PM EST
    "...democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq , open elections in Egypt, Palestinian elections, Syria turning in terrorists and freedom breaking out in Lebanon it is extremely important that we don't acknowledge that George Bush may be smarter than we thought." Well, he's got to be smarter than I think he is. We just have to keep him away from the pretzels.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:47:12 AM EST
    When do you think democracy will come to the US. I'm all for it. Lets have a national vote on the war in Iraq, a women's right to choose, social security reform, death penalty. Bring it on.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:43:46 AM EST
    Eclaire - Sounds to me that you and I disagree on the rights of the accused. I believe they should be afforded privacy until convicted as opposed to feeding the stomach of an angry, judgemental gossip hungry public. Those that stand accused and are innocent or exonerated later can never regain a semblance of their previous lives, that to me is a tragedy........

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 02:10:59 PM EST
    Jlvngstn & Desertswine, You guys are true DNC material. With your whining and complaining and utter lack of solutions we could surely mount a 50 state campaign this time around. Lets explore I mean exploit the child poverty issue more. We just have to be careful not to let the people figure out that each country sets their own poverty level, the Scandanavian countries have extremely low levels of immigration and that our poor get free housing, healthcare, food and pay no taxes. All of which does not count as income. We cannot let the people realize that the average "poverty" family in this country has central heat. CENTRAL HEAT!! They also have TVs, microwave ovens, cars,telephones, DVD players. tatoos & jewelry. Let's not let them hear about sub sahara Africa and hear what real poverty is. Your negativity about the emerging democracies in Asia and the middle east is priceless. You have a true talent. It is a true liberal at heart that can see the people of Afghanistan and Iraq wait in long lines and risk death to vote and turn it into a negative. It makes me all tingly inside thinking about the landslide victories we will produce with all of this negativity. Remember!!!! No solutions.....no suggestions.......no alternate ideas! And what ever you do, never....and I repeat NEVER admit that Dubya may have done anything right. Well done men. Howard Dean

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 02:40:55 PM EST
    Howard, you must have missed my posts on previous threads acknowledging when I agreed with Bush decisions and being that I am not your "thread servant" I will not repost them. You have a right to your opinion as well as I, we just disagree with the most of the policies of this president, as I am sure we would have when Clinton was president. But that is one of the many reasons why this country is great, we can disagree vehemently and the country keeps on keeping on. I hope the dems run a better candidate in 2004 and until then I will continue in my constitutional right to vent my dissent......

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:20:17 PM EST
    Howard, you keep this "making perfect sense" stuff up, and you gonna get censored but quick, buddy!

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:38:02 PM EST
    That's a badge of honor around here, Dagma.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:18:54 PM EST
    Not even intelligent lies Howard. You guys are so bold and ballsy when you have a target that isnt in a position to defend itself - the poor,disarmed Iraqis,detainees - is there something more to this than elementary sadism? The overseer syndrome from getting it up the wazoo from the boss? "Bending low and treading hard." Brecht called that. Btw Last I heard there were millions of working poor in the U.S - they all get "free" housing,food,healthcare etc? I seriously doubt your "CENTRAL HEAT!!" bit also,but hey,if you can do something that'll make these wretches or thier kids squirm and writhe just a little more,(and you get to watch),then its all worthwhile.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:50:08 PM EST
    Jondee, we used to say: "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bulls**t"

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:06:33 PM EST
    One of the networks, when the Reagan economy became too good to fool anybody about anymore (as Reagan said, they stopped calling it the Reagan economy when it got good), made a documentary about the poor in the US and sent it overseas. After the fall of communism (aubrey pauses to let the lamentations die down), it was discovered that a good many Russians who saw the film decided that moving to America and being poor was a dream they could dream, if not actually have. Point is, the study was about "relative" poverty, which means how much richer the rich are than the poor. You can have relatively poor people who are absolutely not poor. Just a distance from the bigshots. People don't die of other people being rich unless envy kills them. Well, communism gone. Soc missed the last election. The Arab street is speaking. I'd suggest you lefties just go to bed and pull the covers over your heads. If some terrible, awful, evil catastrophe happens, we'll call you and you can blame it on Bush. In the meantime...just hope.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimcee on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 08:51:26 PM EST
    Poverty is nothing more than the petrie-dish of captalism. You have to grow new capitalists somewhere.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 08:08:49 AM EST
    Alright Ace,enlighten me-if you can tear yourself away from Rush for a minute - what part was b.s?

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by soccerdad on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 08:25:15 AM EST
    RA ROTFLMAO you get funnier (if not more coherent) every day.

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 03, 2005 at 08:26:16 AM EST
    What part wasn't?

    Re: Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 11:08:43 AM EST
    Ace - Why your still here is nothing if not a tribute to TL's tolerance and open-mindedness - lately youve gone from being a troll to a pathetic troll cheerleader. Idea well run dry?

    Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread | 43 comments (43 topical)