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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 07:54:47 AM EST
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    Monday Open Thread | 75 comments (75 topical)
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:14:56 AM EST
    Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Ukraine, now Togo and even Egypt ... looks like the soft bigotry of low expectations is being trumped by the Bush Doctrine everywhere they meet.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:48:15 AM EST
    I think the DNS record at Comcast was slow to update. I can get to TalkLeft from school but not from home.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:50:43 AM EST
    Reminiscent of a recent appropriation of TalkLeft's image to smear Atrios, it appears that USANext stole the picture of the gay couple. Read about it here.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:16:38 AM EST
    "Reminiscent of a recent appropriation of TalkLeft's image to smear Atrios, it " What are you talking about? When was tl's image appropriated?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by roger on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:29:25 AM EST
    opium production up in Afghanistan, US efforts to suppress it causing hard feelings. Iraq cant get rid of Kurdish militia Palestine- how many false starts have we seen before? Of course, Arafat's death cant hurt Ukraine freed by Ukrainians Yeah ras, your bud W's handiwork all around, in your mind, at least.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:47:14 AM EST
    yeah roger, the taliban did a good job keeping opium production down. And hitler had the trains running on time. I guess their freedom, especially women who are free to like read and write, is pretty bad. much to criticize, but this isn't one of them.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 09:59:27 AM EST
    Roger, You mean there will still be issues between countries, like opium production in Afghanistan? Or that Iraq may have internal issues of its own to deal with? Yeah, no kidding. But look at the trendlines; there's no denying them anymore, even if it does mean acknowledging that some people with whom you strongly disagreed - and trained yourself to hate - were right this time. btw, I forgot to add Lebanon to the list. So many coincidences, so many more to come. Oh, hey, didja know that Jordan is holding local elections, too? A small first step? And ... Syria recently turned in Saddam's brother who had - shock of shocks - been organizing terrorist attacks from safe haven there. It's almost as if Assad realizes that the faux insurgency has failed now, and that the Iraqi people have chosen to be a democracy. The House of Saud will fall, too, eventually, but the Bush admin is smart enough to do them last. At the current pace, I wouldn't be surprised to see the coincidences continue, and democracies magically spring up in both Iran and Saudi Arabia before Bush's term finishes. These things happen fast, a la the death of the Russian Socialist Empire. Punctuated equilibrium and all that.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:34:40 AM EST
    elections scheduled in the ME, good signs one and all. don't get the feeling the left would not welcome these changes, just taking it with a nice dose of skepticism/cynicism. lets not readily forget this admin has corrupted the publics (well 48% at least) trust in media coverage. could be another jg/jg on the loose. could just be window dressing. but again if this follows true of course it would be in spite of, not because of W.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:50:32 AM EST
    ras, If the house of Saud falls, which group takes over and what are the geopolitical consequences? Q2: The result of the election in Iraq appears as if it will lead to a Islamic government ( not ruled by clerics, but where the law will be based on religious beliefs) with a natural common bond with Iran. What is the likelihood that Bush will allow this to go forward? Q2b: if he allows it to go forward what will be the likely geopolotical consequences?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:56:53 AM EST
    hardleft, Yes, the democracies now arising in the ME are undoubtedly doing so in spite of Bush. If he hadn't toppled the Taliban and Saddam, certainly these same changes would be much more advanced by now, given the support that those two gave to democracy. The other ME leaders were just itching for elections, too, you could tell. Let the coincidences roll. It's good to know the Left supports these changes now. For a while there, it appeared as if you were opposed to implementing them. Prob just a misunderstanding. You know, the same way people mistakenly thought the Left had opposed Reagan taking down the USSR. Like that. When in fact, the Left now proudly claims Reagan as one of their own, which certainly clears things up. Soon they will claim Bush. Never scoff at precedent.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:57:25 AM EST
    Anyone have any thoughts on the Kelo case in Connecticut which is before the Supreme Court? Should a town be able to use the power of eminent domain to seize people's property just so they can turn it over to a developer, on the grounds that the developer will pay a higher tax level and therefore benefit the entire community? This seems a stretch of the power well beyond its intended reach, not to mention a really bad precedent if the Court allows it, which, judging from the arguments and the questions raised, seems likely.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 10:58:03 AM EST
    Tl: THe image that belonged to you of Duncan, not an image of you. :-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:01:39 AM EST
    SD this is a point many on the right and the left were concerned about. what if elections take place and they led to more totalitarian regimes? I think Fareed Zakaraia was the first to express concern over this issue in The Rise of Illiberal Democracy. When I read his work I disagreed that this could happen, but the possibility of religious zealots taking over governments through elections is becoming a scary reality. This is not beneficial to anyone and we should be cautious of what we wish to have.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:02:17 AM EST
    Ok, I thought you meant the image of talkleft on the front page. Now I understand.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:03:22 AM EST
    Hardleft & Roger, btw, the Syrian-installed Lebanese govt just resigned
    Lebanon's pro-Syrian government abruptly resigned today during a stormy parliamentary debate, prompting a tremendous roar from tens of thousands of anti-government protesters. The demonstrators had demanded the government's resignation -- and the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon -- since the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.
    Wow, who could have ever predicted such events?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:21:16 AM EST
    Wow, who could have ever predicted such events?
    And exactly what does this mean?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:43:05 AM EST
    ras there has been no elections only talk of. i do believe this talk has been going on for some time. i equate the attention to the same sources that were gleeful that some local dem commissioner in TN? switched to the rep party. highlight and emphasis on already existing phenomenon, you did have a senator that left the rep party if i recall. would have actually called it propaganda but i'm attempting to be more civil in spaces such as this, absent inflamatories, etc.
    ...but the possibility of religious zealots taking over governments through elections is becoming a scary reality.
    the most prominent case being the United States of America. unintended consequences!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:55:54 AM EST
    ras there has been no elections only talk of. i do believe this talk has been going on for some time. i equate the attention to the same sources that were gleeful that some local dem commissioner in TN? switched to the rep party. highlight and emphasis on already existing phenomenon. would have actually called it propaganda but i'm attempting to be more civil in spaces such as this, absent inflamatories, etc.
    ...but the possibility of religious zealots taking over governments through elections is becoming a scary reality.
    the most prominent case being the United States of America. unintended consequences!
    ...the Syrian-installed Lebanese govt just...
    again a pre bushCo issue. is this the communist dominio theory in reverse, me thinks not. again just window dressing, probably for some $$$ aid/assistance. otoh watching the iraqis vote was monumental and yes a good (very good) thing. but the eventual summation of bushCo will be to the detriment of the world, especially USA.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:03:10 PM EST
    ras, nice advoidence of the question. Your ignorance is showing. Do you have any clue of the factions there or how the politics might play out?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:03:57 PM EST
    Hardleft- "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world.......The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it." Walid Jumblatt- Druze militia leader in Lebanon (and no friend of the US or Israel-he once threatened an American emissary, told him he "would carve him new eye sockets"). Speaks volumes, eh?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:13:38 PM EST
    Time will tell. Only time will tell. 10 years ago, anybody remember all the optimism about Russia? Now it's just another borderline failed state that can't do much because of organized crime and corruption. Can't even keep track of their own WMD's without foreign assistance. I hope the ME turns out better, but I'm not holding my breath. Like Russia, the ME is generally used to strong-man rule, and may well try to return to it eventually, as Russia did with Putin.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Adept Havelock on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:15:15 PM EST
    My bad..above should read "14 years ago" not 10.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:35:59 PM EST
    justpaul...I read about that case and was downright frightened. I sincerely hope the property owners prevail.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:38:13 PM EST
    Posted by hardLeft at February 28, 2005 11:34 AM
    elections scheduled in the ME, good signs one and all. don't get the feeling the left would not welcome these changes, just taking it with a nice dose of skepticism/cynicism.
    Thats the whole problem with the Left, you'll gladly take the changes that you don't have to earn. What about the ones you do have to earn, with blood and sweat.....you gonna passively take them too.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:45:18 PM EST
    you now Gerry under the threat of bombing any/everyone that doesn’t summit to your will, me calls that bullying not diplomacy, I can see why a lot of countries are talking democracy, but haven’t they talked that talk before. although i understand a diplomatic message is more convincing if you've already proven you will break any and all treaties and rules your legally bound to protect/follow, have attacked a sovereign nation without cause (not starting the wmd debate again, your convinced i am not). could it be their playing for time, they know what a lame duck presidency is and are probably quite familiar with the nuances of american politics and its cyclic history. they after all curry favors from america, party affiliation insignificant.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:48:02 PM EST
    Posted by hardLeft at February 28, 2005 11:34 AM elections scheduled in the ME, good signs one and all. don't get the feeling the left would not welcome these changes, just taking it with a nice dose of skepticism/cynicism. You see, Hardleft, thats the whole problem in a nutshell. We over hear on the right, don't need you to stand back and passively accept the good that comes from our sweat, blood, and committment. Hell, we have France, Germany, etc. for that. What we need is for you grow a set, and get behind the good things going on in this world because you want them to work, or you hope they will work. Thats whats know as being "committed to your principles."

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:48:31 PM EST
    Well, it now seems that even The New York Times has its doubts about whether any crime at all was committed in "the Plame Incident". "Meanwhile, an even more basic issue has been raised in recent articles in The Washington Post and elsewhere: the real possibility that the disclosure of Ms. Plame's identity, while an abuse of power, may not have violated any law." Kinf of makes you wonder why they spent all that time, money, and ink insisting that a crime was committed.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 12:56:53 PM EST
    anti troll disclaimer: i have no authority, officially sanctioned or presumed, to speak for the left, and they in turn are absent any authority to speak for me.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:07:35 PM EST
    The right has now tried to corner the market on blood and sweat of the Iraq effort. MFor most of them their sweat is whatever the work up typing on the keyboard. As far as blood goes, the only blood most have seen is from an ingrown nail. The only people that can claim blood and sweat are those in Iraq. The rest of you are just selfrightous pompous a**es. Spare us the BS, was this todays theme from the talking points?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:08:34 PM EST
    Hear Hear hardleft....I feel the same way, I'm just me. I feel like Groucho (or was it Harpo?) I wouldn't join any group that would have me as a member. The troll made me laugh though...
    accept the good that comes from our sweat, blood, and committment
    No one who pushed for the war has bled a drop of blood. They leave the bleeding to the proles, who don't have a say in the matter.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:08:41 PM EST
    I think what is happening in Lebanon has less to do with Iraq than Bush would like you to believe. I predict that history will show that foreign service agents from CIA (and quite likely British intelligence, and maybe even French and German intelligence, possibly even the Vatican) returned somewhat to their historical roots--inspiring, inciting, and prodding on-the-ground political opposition, in the same way they did in Eastern Europe, just as they should have done in Iraq in 1991 and since. Had Bush I learned any lessons from World War I, he would have known that heavy-handed control by an outside state just doesn't work. It causes deep resentment to build and fester, and then all of a sudden you get ideologically-driven extremists who are out for blood. But a revolution, on the other hand, comes from within (even if it needs some outside help) and produces a government that people can get behind. It worked here!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:13:19 PM EST
    By the way I can access TalkLeft from home now, so the DNS records at Comcast must finally have gotten an update.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:22:43 PM EST
    Hardleft- " under the threat of bombing any/everyone that doesn’t summit to your will, me calls that bullying not diplomacy" All diplomacy comes from the threat of force. It is the threat of force that gets one or both sides to the table, and it is the threat of force that gets one or both sides to decide what concessions they are willing to make in order to avoid conflict. Even economic pressure is only backed up by force- because that is what prevents one power from just taking what is being denied them. I'm not ready to claim the Iraq War will be the end all panacea for what ails the Mideast, but it is apparently setting in motion a lot of changes that could bear fruit.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:24:51 PM EST
    Soccerdad calling somebody a pompous, self righteous ass? Pot, meet kettle.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 01:56:39 PM EST
    that could bear fruit
    I'd like something a little more concrete before we go and get 100,000 people killed. But that's just me.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:20:18 PM EST
    ras "But look at the trendlines;" Yeah, continued civilian murder as a DIRECT result of Bush's illegal, colonial invasion. 280 tons of high-explosive is the kick that turns an ordinary automobile into a bomb that can kill 200 people. No IED is going to do that much damage. Two years since the invasion, STILL less electricity in Bagdad than before the invasion. STILL less potable water in the country than before the invasion. Good thing Bechtel and Halliburton are making lots of money on no-bid contracts, because they ain't doing anything for it. When does Bechtel get to tear down Abu Ghraib so they can rebuilt it a second or third time? How are those airbase golf courses getting along. Can the generals still tee off within view of body parts being heaved into the air in the hundreds? That makes quite a hazard, but the generals are tough stuff when it comes to watching civilians die for their bad decisions. Bush/Rumsfeld's unstaffed invasion gave those weapons to the hostiles. Along with them, 4,000 shoulder-fired missiles. Say goodbye to more planeloads of soldiers, and 4,000 sfms will destroy, gee, several thousand civilian airliners just fine. Thanks, George!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:26:52 PM EST
    "Posted by justpaul: "Well, it now seems that even The New York Times has its doubts". This is Jim's argument, justpaul. You'll have to pay him a licensing fee. The idea is that the NYT is a liberal organ, so if THEY say something, it has to be true. The only problem is that the NYT hasn't been FACTUAL, much less liberal, for an age. "Meanwhile, an even more basic issue has been raised in recent articles in The Washington Post and elsewhere: the real possibility that the disclosure of Ms. Plame's identity, while an abuse of power, may not have violated any law." Hilarious. It's TREASON. Exposing possibly hundreds of spies and destroying MILLIONS of dollars of intelligence investment is TREASON. It was also TREASON when Condi Rice went to the NYT and gave them the name of the Al Qaeda mole the British had developed. They promptly printed it. Why would they, or she, do that? It's TREASON, from a person who became SecState under the coup gov't. Why is that not surprising? "No one ever imagined the use of airliners as missiles." --Riceliar in 2001, doing her Oscar turn.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:27:27 PM EST
    kdog- I think the concern was more along the lines of doing something now in the hopes of preventing 100,000 or more of us getting killed. The oppression and repression of the Mideast breeds the extremism of Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc, today, plus who knows what in the future. The Iraq war has set a spark of Democracy in the region (with varying results in Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia & Kuwait so far), played a part in restarting the Peace process between Israel and the Palestinians (AGAIN), helped bring Libya to the confessional, and has made it tougher for Terror organizations to find safe Harbor. Not too shabby.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 02:48:37 PM EST
    PaulLooLoo, Hilarious. It's TREASON Yer Rambling again. I trully do not know what dictionary you use, for it doesn't fit Webster's definition of Treason Treason: from Latin Traditio (to hand over - i.e. to the enemy). ArtIII Sect3 of our Constitution defines Tradition as: Treason against the US shall consist only in levying war against the US, adhering to its the enemies, or giving aid or comfort. Where on the above have our elected leaders done so? If anything, you are adhering to the position of our enemies. By your stand, you are the one providing aid and comfort to those levying war against us.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    Michael D writes - "But a revolution, on the other hand, comes from within (even if it needs some outside help) and produces a government that people can get behind. It worked here!" Yes, and it too quite a bit of help from the French, and others, both in finicial aid and military aid. Read some history on why Adam was in Europe. Paul In LA - Gesh. That might be poor judgement, but not treason. It also might be a means to convince the agents to come to us, not another country. It could also be a means to make al-Qaida redo all their security, because they had to fear`that it was blown. Much can be learned by just watching the birds call and flutter when a snake changes its position. Michael Ditto writes - "I think what is happening in Lebanon has less to do with Iraq than Bush would like you to believe." Uh, if it was that simple, why did they take so long? Come on MD. Give credit when it's due.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:11:00 PM EST
    Uh,if it was that simple, why did they take so long? Because it didn't happen until this guy who was, you know, very popular and considered patriotic got BLOWN UP, and so people thought that the Syrians were behind it, etc. and organized. It's called a tipping point. To say that the invasion of Iraq encouraged them is a bit beside the point, as the Lebenese appear to be doing peaceful protests, as took placed earlier in the Ukraine.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 05:20:17 PM EST
    PPJ, you're making my point for me. That's what I was referring to when I said outside help. Credit? One day is not enough elapsed time to give anyone credit. Let's see how this plays out a little first. Bush and his blindly faithful friends like to claim credit for Libya, but credit goes almost exclusively to France and England.If history shows that it was the brits and the frogs who were behind the riots, will you just deny it and give Bush credit as y'all have done on Libya? I, for one, won't. I think you and the neocons have democracy confused with something else. You don't bomb a country with democracy and see if it spreads to infect people in the country next door. That's anthrax.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 06:35:38 PM EST
    Congrats, Ras. You have got them JUMPIN' and JIVIN' on this thread! Well done.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 06:50:59 PM EST
    DA - The "they" was the CIA, et al, not the locals. MD - Whatever. You'll also have an excuse 5 years from now.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 07:58:59 PM EST
    Ace, I dunno about no jumpin' and jivin'; I was merely stating what I saw to be a key to an important issue: i.e. peoples' attitudes and responses to important recent ME developments. Looks like TL deleted my comments, too, which is a shame, really, cuz they were all politely phrased and honestly held. And completely in line with her own commenting policy, which I re-reviewed per her last post on the subject just to be sure. TL, Is following the new comments policy insufficient? Are there unwritten rules, too? Could you post those? Also, a philosophical q: how can one hijack an open thread? I would have thought that a contradiction in terms, and my comments were all on a single topic, and usually in response to q's asked of me by other commenters.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:17:54 PM EST
    Ras, you had 7 (now 8) comments today, I deleted the last 3. You have been limited to 4 since the day you posted 28. The four a day limit is in the comments policy , and was stated here , and here and here .

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by ras on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 08:25:05 PM EST
    TL, I had thought we had agreed - based on other discussions - that comments as a part of an ongoing discussion, and in response to requests for info by other commenters, did not count to the limit. i.e. the policy was intended to keep discussions on-topic, yes? Well, I was! As for my "record", one day, of 28 - it was, IIRC, one very long thread that pretty much went back and forth conversationally, much as this one did. You a girl who likes less talk? And an attorney? Interesting combination :)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 28, 2005 at 11:11:07 PM EST
    PPJ - for all I know, Bush personally sent Ann Coulter and James Carville to annoy the Syrians out of power in Lebanon. I'm just saying it's a little early to assign credit when you know precious little about how it all went down. In a perfect world with heavy CIA coverage in Lebanon, I doubt even Bush would have a comprehensive idea of what happened. Do you have some insight into internal Lebanese politics that the rest of us are missing? As for the "domino effect", it will take years before we know the full ramifications of the Iraq war. You can't make conclusions about the long-term effect that war is having on the politics surrounding countries when the war isn't even over yet. As Ed Kilgore notes on TPM, it's "this is the kind of thinking, of course, that has convinced God knows how many people that Ronald Reagan personally won the Cold War." There are a number of factions inside and outside Lebanon that have been trying to get rid of the Syrians for a long time. History might prove that they deserve a little credit. History might also prove that this is just out with the old dictator and in with the new (kind of like Russia). We just don't know yet.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:06:22 AM EST
    MD writes - "PPJ - for all I know..." Yes, I agree. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) MD, it is interesting and very instructive to watch the Left try and explain what is happening without giving credit to Bush. I haven't seen so much heming and hawing since I watched Grandad try to explain to Grandma why his bottled grape juice was blowing the caps off. I don't know Ed Kilgore, but he appears to not understand the central points of Reagan's attacks. Reagan defined the Soviets for what they were, an Evil Empire. At that point no one could waffle back and forth using equivalency as an argument. You were either for evil, or against evil. Reagan put short range tactical missles into Europe using that argument. With it, he reminded Europe that it is necessary to fight evil, as they had not initally done with Hitler. It also removed the tactical advantage that the Soviets had in troop numbers. It also showed that a war could be fought, and won by the West, without going nuclear. The MAD stragety was further weakened by Starwars. The Soviets, who had no way of knowing that it wouldn't succeed, had to counter star wars. When they couldn't, they had to start looking for accomadations with the West. Ah, what a slippery slope that was.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:43:45 AM EST
    Isnt the whole damned point, M. Ditto, that Reagan then, and Bush now are atleast trying to guide the world in the proper direction. Yes, the cold war had ramifications that are just now surfacing, and so will the war in Iraq take years if not decades to analyze. But the point is atleast they had a vision of where they want the world to go, and took the steps they saw as necessary to get us there. Isn't that what leadership is all about. If you want to wait for complete analysis before taking action, the fundamentalists will be eating your lunch by then.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:47:22 AM EST
    So according to Dagma real leadership involves lying, total disregard for international law, torture, murder either directly or by proxy but its ok the ends (whatever they are) justify the means and they knew where they were going. More crap from the "moral" majority

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:12:50 AM EST
    Soc, do you realize you have described the ayatollahs, Saddam, and Kim Jong Il perfectly?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:23:02 AM EST
    Ace yes I did, as well as Bush. I don't like those kind of leaders regardless of the country.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:26:15 AM EST
    Soccerdad, You can claim all the pretend "atrocities" you want, If the Bush Doctrine brings democracy to the ME, it will bring security to our shores, and he will be remembered as the greatest American President ever. But that aside, atleast he didn't sit on his ass and nay say from the sidelines as you do.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:39:30 AM EST
    Dagma I'm not the president in case u didn't notice. I'll put you down as a member of the ends justifies the means crowd. BTW Bush doesn't give a rats a** about democracy. He's for it if it serves its purpose, as a smoke screen to cover up the real reasons for invasion. But if your not democratic and you can be of service to us thats fine too see Uzbekistan. if you are democratically elected and don't bow to our demands we will try and overthrow you see Chavez in Ven. So this democracy flag waving nonsense is just that. A way of rallying the sheep to support illegal, immoral aggression against countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 and according to the Governments own NIE report were unlikely to give away WMDs to terrorists. So you just keep living in your delusional self-serving world. I prefer reality as ugly as it is.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 09:56:10 AM EST
    “I'll put you down as a member of the ends justifies the means crowd.” I’ve never really understood this saying. Isn’t this how we evaluate the means; by the ends? As little as I care for Dagma’s dogma , it is starting to look as if the Bush doctrine (more appropriately the Wolfowitz doctrine) may be treated generously by a historical perspective. Weather or not intervention in Iraq and the subsequent hawkish posturing for Syria et al. has anything to do with what we have/are seeing in places like Libya, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Qutar, and SA, the doctrine will likely get credit. Or perhaps the entire place will backslide; I’m optimistic today.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:07:25 AM EST
    SD - I see you are still agreeing with OBL... "Posted by: PPJ (aka Jim) on September 25, 2004 07:39 PM soccerdad - We understand your position. As OBL said: ""...because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical." and then you follow. "...because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical." I think our actions in Iraq have proven him correct. Posted by soccerdad at September 25, 2004 09:13 AM

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:33:03 AM EST
    Soc, seems you don't like crow. So why are you cooking up another big helping? You still have that big cold dish left over from last autumn when you shot your mouth off accusing Jim of posting something you never backed up. Soc. Some of us have veeeeeeeeeerryyyyy long memories.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:42:25 AM EST
    PPJ- for the 20th time, he was right. What are you stupid or something.
    Soc, seems you don't like crow. So why are you cooking up another big helping?
    I have no clue what point you are trying to make.
    You still have that big cold dish left over from last autumn when you shot your mouth off accusing Jim of posting something you never backed up. Soc. Some of us have veeeeeeeeeerryyyyy long memories.
    If you have to go back to last fall to find a place where I may have goofed up, I'm doing pretty good. I feel sorry for you that you don't have better things to do with your time than to track everything I said.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:50:59 AM EST
    I’ve never really understood this saying. Isn’t this how we evaluate the means; by the ends
    ? Only the amoral would not understand this saying. Pity. So it doesn't bother you that the reasons for starting the war were lies, that the real reason we are there is not democracy, that we have indiscriminately killed civilians with cluster munitions etc., that we have tortured, etc etc None of this matters to you as long as something turns up right? I see no reason to be optimistic. It may turn out well, but there is nothing of substance that has happened that ensures that a democratic (i.e. not a proxy government) will be established anytime soon anywhere. One can make equally compelling arguments that the whole thing is going in the dumper. So there's not much that can be done now except sit back and watch which way it goes.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 11:59:27 AM EST
    Lets be clear. OBL attacked us on 9/11 because of our policies in the ME. We end up invading Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 (except of course to those wingnuts who are up to their ears in koolaid). We are now bogged down in a long protracted guerilla war that will eventually bankrupt us. In the process of carrying out this war we have commited atrocities which has fueled further hatred of the US in the Muslim world. Now given that it was the US with OBL who suckered the Russians into a long protracted guerilla war in Afghanistan that eventually bankrupted them, it seems that not only was OBL right about the government of the US he was also smarter than Bush (which is no big deal I know)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:23:57 PM EST
    SD- “None of this matters to you as long as something turns up right?” Well, if in retrospect we can say that, on balance, more good was done than harm; yes. That being said, I want to remind you I do not support, in general, US intervention. “Only the amoral would not understand this saying. Pity.” Morality is a funny thing. Most everyone has there own unique brand, and are likewise convinced theirs is exclusively correct. Think about it a bit more; solely the ends judge the means. Was the thing accomplished worth the sacrifice made; I think this is where folks disagree when one busts out the ‘end justify the means’ colloquialism. “I see no reason to be optimistic. It may turn out well, but there is nothing of substance that has happened that ensures that a democratic (i.e. not a proxy government) will be established anytime soon anywhere.” I guess the obvious question is then, if democracy does take in Iraq and subsequently flourishes throughout the ME, would it have been worth it?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 12:55:15 PM EST
    I guess the bottom line is, no matter what happens in Iraq or the rest of the ME that can be credited back to Bush, we have to put Soccerdad in the humiliation is torture, we did it to steal their oil, He lied, OBL doesn't like us cause we're bad crowd, and the French have it right, and I hate GWB no matter what crowd.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 01:36:48 PM EST
    Dagma writes:
    humiliation is torture
    What about the dead Iraqis? You need to broaden your source of news from Rush. If you believe there was no torture you really are an uninformed hack.
    we did it to steal their oil
    , agree
    He lied,
    agree
    OBL doesn't like us cause we're bad crowd,
    not accurate. he hates us for our policies in the ME and wants us out.
    and the French have it right
    , about what??? of course a winger cant pass up the chance to smear us by implying we like the French. So pathetic a tactic its funny.
    and I hate GWB no matter what crowd.
    Until he does something i agree with.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:30:45 PM EST
    SD - Well, you just goofed up, again. That comment was from Ace, not me. And you again ignore what OBL said. "So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world." I know this is difficult, but get a globe of the world. Your local library probably has one. Look at it with a dictionary in your hand. Look up "world." Then look up "whole." I promise. It will be painless.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:47:56 PM EST
    PPJ - we have been through your misreading of OBL's material at least 5 times. You are as clueless as always and its pointless to go around again. I know you have to keep all these beliefs in your head in order to justify torture, illegal invasions, and a hatred of Islam.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 05:53:10 PM EST
    Soc, where DO you get your delusions? I shall address ONE. If OBL's "reason" for attacking America and killing over 3,000 innocent people was "America's policy in the ME", then OBL is a madman and a criminal and deserves to be hunted down and brought to justice. I, Jim, and many others already know this. You seem to be buying into the notion that somehow, this man's act had a sort of "logic" to it. If so, you undermine your own credibility.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by soccerdad on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 06:52:38 PM EST
    Dr Ace you really are either a fool, an idiot, or are just trying to bait me. personally i think you are all three. Logic is in the mind of the lunatic in this case. He learned much of his tactics helping the US in Afghanistan. There is a logic to it. It remains criminal and despicable the methods he chose. Of course he needs to be caught. maybe you should tell your buddy bush who now says he doesn't matter. Sorry don't need the bait. Besides your opinions mean little to me, I just want to make sure that anyone new here understands what you are.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 07:07:27 PM EST
    Q.E.D., Soc.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 03:07:34 AM EST
    ROTFLMAO every village needs an idiot and we have you ACE. Thanks for the comic relief.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:28:45 AM EST
    Actually Soccerdad, Dr Ace is one of the saner voices in this, Alice in Wonderland of a Blog.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 04:42:37 AM EST
    OK make that 2 village idiots we have. Sorry to have left you out the first time.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 05:51:01 AM EST
    SD - If you cannot understand a simple declarative sentence, there is not much I can do except remind you of it whenever you decide to go back to that "its our fault BS" you try and pass out everynow and then.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:51:52 AM EST
    PPJ - stop making a fool of your self. I may actually start feeling sorry for you if you keep this up. We've been through this before, not going to take the bait and waste more of my time.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:36:41 AM EST
    Soc, your behavior here reminds me of something Mark Twain once said: "Tis better to keep one's mouth shut and let others think him a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." : )

    Monday Open Thread | 75 comments (75 topical)