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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:13:04 AM EST
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Court beckons, so you are on your own. Check out Americablog for some surprises in the Jeff Gannon case, and Crooks and Liars for some video of last night's Grammy Performances. Also check out the Senate hearings on financial waste in Iraq. And let us know what stories you find compelling today.

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    Monday Open Thread | 59 comments (59 topical)
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:56:32 AM EST
    et al - Just I was reading glanton's nasty attack on General Mattis, and ricky1756's slurs on Republicans, I ran across this article. How appro I thought. "Between strangers, the phenomenon only intensifies. In my time as a journalist, I've probably received a few dozen pieces of snail mail, along with a phone call or two, about my various meanderings. Blustery, tough emails demeaning me personally, however, come in by the hundreds. In my trailer park of yore, this sort of posturing would have been punctuated with a fist rather than a period, and so people did not address people in this sort of way unless they were ready to put up." As someone who has often wondered about this phenomenon, I found the following illustrative: "Thus, the Internet generation is inherently cowardly. Online, people are using the language of confrontation without having to take responsibility for the consequences such rhetoric normally carries with it -- and not just with regard to physical violence. The emotional consequences of unpleasant communication -- tears, anger, verbal retaliation -- are also conveniently left by the wayside. When one does not have to face the repercussions of personal behavior there is little incentive to improve it."

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:21:57 AM EST
    Interesting point, Jim. I have witnessed people shout anti-Bush, anti-Republican rants in public places, at people who tried civilly to disagree with them. I suppose this makes them less cowardly (if no less ignorant and socially inept).

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:59:08 AM EST
    Here is Rice
    if a person cannot walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment or physical harm, then that person is living in a fear society, not a free society.
    Have to agree whole heartedly with that. But wait:
    October 2004, at a Partei rally in West Virginia. Xan writes (quoting Atlanta-Journal Constitution): Like many Americans, Jeff and Nicole Rank have an opinion about their president. They wore it on T-shirts they unveiled after entering the West Virginia State Capitol grounds to hear him speak. The his-and-hers shirts included a photo of the president and the word "Bush" with the international "no" symbol. His shirt also said, "Regime change starts at home." Hers said, "Love America, Hate Bush." Shortly after the Ranks revealed the shirts, two men they believe worked for the Secret Service or the White House demanded that they remove or cover them. The Ranks refused and were arrested, handcuffed and jailed on trespassing charges.
    from Corrente The Repubs are good at talking the talk but....

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:01:03 AM EST
    here's the correct link sorry

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:51:18 AM EST
    Soccerdad, Somehow I think you're missing the "rest of the story." What were they arrested for again? Not a free speech violation...Hmmm, I guess it's true then, you can say or do what you want, but there are some responsibilities. You can't come into my house and stay if I've asked you to leave. Should the Ranks get more rights than me?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:11:03 AM EST
    Jim, It's so wrong of you to characterize my comments about Mattis as "nasty" or cowardly I don't know where to begin, but I'll try. First off, let's face it, citizens don't get access to Generals. If I could have an interview with him I'd happily take it and tell him what is on my mind and in my heart, just as I would do with Dubya or Rick Santorum or James Dobson or you or whomever. I have nothing to hide or fear. And you have no reason for doubting that unless you just want to smear me. Secondly, Mattis's own comment went well beyond "nasty." My response to him is actually pretty toned down compared to what he deserves, and deserves face to face. Public humiliation and immediate dismissal would be a good start. But instead let's focus on non-players like Churchill and Gannon, because they've such an impact on policy and implementation! That you defend Mattis and attack people who speak up but have no cultural power really bothers me. This man spoke for the United States military, and cast them in the role of bloodthirsty hordes, don't you see that?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by glanton on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:30:55 AM EST
    As an addendum, Jim, I will admit that it's obviously easier to say negative things about someone than it is to say them face to face. But easier doesn't translate into better. It really is too bad that the people who impact our lives so directly are so removed from us that we cannot address them in any meaningful way. Unless you count voting. Which I don't, in this case.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:31:46 AM EST
    PPJ:- Coming from someone who has often asked people, 'Tell me, do you still beat your wife?', I'm glad you've taken the time to highlight this.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:33:24 AM EST
    Patrick at February 14, 2005 08:51 AM ...What were they arrested for again?... it really does not matter what the end citation read, the effect of the arrest was to silence their oppositon, it worked, they were hadcuffed and lead off. i would even venture to say the charges were probably dropped, but the effect of the arrest was to stiffle their first amendment rights. and you know that, man.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:43:40 AM EST
    Hardleft, Your freedom of speech doesn't include your right to speak anywhere you choose. There is still such a thing as private property. The case may have been dropped, but they had no right to remain somewhere they were not invited. Free speech is not the issue. They have it, so does everyone, the issue is there's no right to a soap box.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:50:16 AM EST
    In the "stories I found compelling" category: yesterday my local NPR station repeated last week's This American Life, which I missed. http://thislife.org/ra/282.ram I highly reccomend this to everyone who reads or writes TalkLeft. It's an hour long, but worth it. Here's the caption for the picture that went with the story. "left, Collin Warner, who spent years in prison wrongfully convicted of murder, and right, his childhood friend Carl King, who eventually got him out. Carl now runs an organization, called Success to Freedom devoted to helping wrongfully convicted inmates."

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:56:38 AM EST
    Patrick at February 14, 2005 09:43 AM Your freedom of speech doesn't include your right to speak anywhere you choose. There is still such a thing as private property. honestly P, i can't believe you attempt to justify this. what political rallies have you been to that are held on private property. (your reaching) if in fact it was private property, way were they grated entrance, could it be they were invited. stop attempting to justify blatant political oppression.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by BigTex on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:29:08 AM EST
    what political rallies have you been to that are held on private property. Do you really want an answer t' that question. I can rattle off some fer various candidates, even fer th' Sherrif when he was runnin' fer governer o' th' Greatest State, if you'd like.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peaches on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 09:29:18 AM EST
    PPJ, Macombers is a little late on the scene in making this observation. Of course the internet allows a voice to cowards who otherwise would remain silent. What the hell are you doing hanging out at TL afterall? The same can be said of what happens to people when they get in their cars. They suddenly feel invincible. They honk their horns, give the finger, act like they are warriors negotiating their way through traffic past enemy combatants. Road rage builds as the freeway fills with maniacal citizens on their way home from work to sit down in their suburban homes for dinner with a glass of wine and family. Hell, we can say the wame thing about war, right? Give a young man full of testorone a gum with unlimited ammuntion and very little responsibility for their actions and we can predict what will happen next. The same thing that happens when you put them in a prison and give them a memo on torture that says "have at 'em!" War crimes! But, it is not that cowards suddenly have a voice, it is accurately described by Macombers as "When one does not have to face the repercussions of personal behavior there is little incentive to improve it." And, this affects everyone. When I come to TL and I read you and Ace, Piggy, and others, I am insulted by your tone and ignorance. I don't find one thing civil about Ace's disagreements with liberals and you are very capable of throwing out insults, accusations and just plain wrong presumptions. So, you get a bristle full of insults thrown back at ya. It helps me get through the day. I can't give Bush a piece of my mind, so I give it to you. You can't express your displeasures to Kerry, Kennedy, Dashle, or others, so you heap your insults at SD, Glanton, CA and others. Well, FU! You ain't sh#@! And I long ago gave up on engaging in civil discourse with you. But, I do come back because I enjoy telling you to F#$% off! Ahhhh, I feel beter already!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:05:56 AM EST
    jim, if the internet generation is inherently cowardly (a generalization of comic proportion), then, um, doesn't that mean YOU are inherently cowardly? you blog every day here, and who knows where else. you don't give out your address or phone number. and, when it suits you, you're as vitriolic as anyone here, me included. or are you simply saying it's an age thing? and that it's only those of "generation y" who are inherently cowardly? (as a generation x'er, i guess i'm in the clear, huh? since the internet didn't come along on a mass scale until i was in my twenties? peace out, my fellow american.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    Rumor has it that the Gannon was paid to register the military prostitution domains for the purpose of prostituting himself. Why, I have no idea. Why it's relevant to the larger story, I don't know. Hopefully John will be able to put it together.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:28:41 AM EST
    add jim, btw, it doesn't seem at all a negative aspect of the internet that it might eliminate or greatly lessen physical violence as a response to free speech. and that means the a'holes and offensive nutjobs get to vent, too. we all hate that, of course, but instead of busting jaws we should be refuting empty arguments with striving truth. sticks and stones, we used to call it. words? you fight with better words. also, there is obviously truth in the anonymous and fragmented nature of modern american techno society. the voyeuristic aspects, the way it can keep us from the town hall (though it can also BE the town hall if used properly), alienate us from the reality of human contact (tho when we say "we" we don't really mean we, but everyone else except ourselves). and blame for this decadent, "inherently cowardly" equipment and material could just as easily be assigned to the free market itself, which creates many things (hardware AND software) that people of all moral stripes find offensive.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by cp on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 10:35:13 AM EST
    macombers is not only late to the issue, he manages to leave out a compelling aspect: how many of us ever get the opportunity to meet, up close and personal, with public figures who piss us off? damn few, i'll wager. true, we could write a letter to the editor, which may or may not get published. the advent of e-mail actually provides a societal safety valve of sorts. how many people have just sent angry e-mails, in lieu of angry bullets? so, my heart bleeds for him and his ilk, who have for centuries hidden behind the mask of anonymity that a mass publication provided. as for the interpersonal e-mails, well, they do take the risk of having to see those people at work or home. so maybe they learn that lesson the hard way.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:09:06 AM EST
    BigTex at February 14, 2005 10:29 AM Do you really want an answer t' that question. I can rattle off some fer various candidates, even fer th' Sherrif when he was runnin' fer governer o' th' Greatest State, if you'd like. are these political rallies, or political fund raisers most rallies are an effort to reach out to the public and are more often than not held in public forums. i believe TEX what you describe are fund raisers. again, why were these individuals not screened at the entrance point. i often receive invitations to republican sponsored events, i'm (was yellow now)blue dog democratic, ?how do you suppose that happens?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:23:17 AM EST
    Peaches at February 14, 2005 10:29 AM PPJ thats that "hell has no furry..." thingy!!! sidebar: i felt that last night, i did'nt know i was suppose to celebrate V-Day Mon (2/14) on Sun (2/13), its gonna be expensive to fix this. Posted by dadler at February 14, 2005 11:28 AM logic and facts to no avail. but you already know this. Posted by buckshot at February 14, 2005 12:02 PM Open thread, eh????? lol - maybe it was just the timing.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:28:08 AM EST
    Has anyone checked out the PIPELINE OF MONEY flowing from the sugar giants into the campaign coffers of BOTH parties? Ahhhhh...it's coming into focus now.... The pipeline is quite large, but it has nothing to do with selling sugar to obese people on food stamps. We subsidize our domestic sugar industry and thus keep the price of sugar higher in America than it outherwise would be if left to the global free market. This provides jobs in the sugar industry to Americans and supports many farmers in the Dakotas (North Dakota has the highest millionaire per capita in the nation thanks largely to this industry--at least they did a couple of years ago.), and other places. But it also means Americans pay higher prices for their sugar to support those who make a living in the sugar industry. The benefits and costs of such a policy have been argued since the days of Adam Smith. Obese people buying soda and treats are likely only a minority of those who use food stamps. The number of individuals on food stamps declined 38% from 1994 to 2001. It has risen since because there is an increased need for them by people who are without opportunities to work at jobs providing livable wages. It's that safety net thing. But lets talk about decreasing the size of Gov't through getting rid of programs such as food stamps (which are already only a small portion of the fed budget) while giving substantially larger increasing to the homeland security and the military, instead. And throw in permanent tax cuts for the richest Americans on top of that. It would be huorous if it wasn't so tragic.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:29:32 AM EST
    Amen Buckshot!!! I've always wondered the same thing.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 11:56:33 AM EST
    dadler - The comment "cowardly" was in the link, I will reserve my on self judgement. ;-) But I will confess to laying out a shot or two, most in response, but that may be in the eye of the respondee. But, I think I can show comment after comment where I did not respond with a vulgar comment, but one either laughing at, or commenting on, the other party. As for self identification. Sorry, too many nut cases in this world, although Roger and I were trying to get together, and there are various group meetings, lunches, etc. that some go to. Anyone got any nut stories? I do push my belief that you should have a moniker. That helps establish a small bit of creditability. At least people can quote you. cp - Intersting point about "safety valve." Would you also agree that some people get into a feedback mode where anger builds, rather than lowers? Peaches - You know, I think your problem is that you can't stand someone who you disagree with, and who you think may be laughing at you. And I am glad to be able to help you get through the day. But "night" is a no-no. In the meantime, hugs and kissess and hows the gang down at the Muddy Pig? Matt W - Well, do you? ;-) glanton - Smear? Heaven forbid. I just commented that I don't think you would say that to the General's face, and I agree that you would never get the chance. Beyond the disagreement on how to disagree, I can not fathom why you would be upset with a General who says it is fun to kill terrorists. After all, isn't that what we want done? Isn't it true that when someone's sworn desire is to kill infidels and go to paradise if killed in return, there is little available in the way of rehabilation. Do you think it possible to be a successful reluctant warrior? Good heavens. et al - It will be interesting to see what will be the norm on the Internet say, 20 years from now. Unforntunately, I doubt I will care. SD - It may be sad, but it also happened under Clinton, in Chicago I think, and then we had goons working for Hillary beating up someone at a St Pat's Day parade in NYC. Just a little equal time, don't get in a lather. What is wrong for the goose is also wrong for the gander.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:20:09 PM EST
    HardLeft, Before making assumptions on my identity by my monikor (a mistake others b4 u have also made), be aware that this monikor has been my nickname for over twenty years. Let me provide an image for an analogy. The 6' 3" 300lb unkempt Hell's Angel who earned the nickname 'tiny.'

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:29:18 PM EST
    The Repubs often require either loyalty oaths or party affiliation checks before getting into a Bush event. Got a citation for your other claims

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 01:29:33 PM EST
    Peaches at February 14, 2005 02:20 PM The 6' 3" 300lb unkempt Hell's Angel who earned the nickname 'tiny.' that thought did cross my mind and in my defense all i can say is, you know what you get when you "assume". gender neutral. damn got to get this PC thingy down. i stand corrected.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Patrick on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 02:06:50 PM EST
    Hardleft, What BigTex said. Personally, I think you're reading a whole lot into the circumstances that may or may not be there. The Ranks were arrested for tresspassing, read the link posted by Soccerdad. last time I checked tresspassing was not a legally excused under free speech.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:01:38 PM EST
    Psychic WebSite like statistics you can tell some pretty darn good lies, and a few damn lies with a good understanding of math. ?what formula are we using to determine SSA solvency?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 03:34:07 PM EST
    Posted by Patrick at February 14, 2005 03:06 PM Personally, I think you're reading a whole lot into the circumstances that may or may not be there... "(via Atlanta Journal-Constitution) "...They wore it on T-shirts they unveiled after entering the West Virginia State Capitol grounds to hear him speak." public property, public land, but the event could have still been private, but someone allowed them to enter, security was tight i'm sure. "...revealed the shirts, two men they believe worked for the Secret Service or the White House demanded that they remove or cover them..." no heckling going on, no interruptions, not even speaking. "...The Ranks refused and were arrested, handcuffed and jailed on trespassing charges..." from remove shirts to trespassing. "...Kerry has delighted in asking the audiences, "Did anyone have to sign a loyalty oath to get in?"" ?suppression of free speech? again, the trespassing charges were to suppress the individuals free speech. accept that this administration seeks to silence all opposition and not with truth and facts. and here’s the part you Reps really miss, its like racism, if you do succeed in making irrelevant the democratic party (highly doubtful imo) who do you think they will target next, oh yeah, the undesirables within the party, gays, atheist, and that beat goes on and on and on!!! like that little bunny. tyranny knows no bounnds!!!!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:41:52 PM EST
    hardleft - I take that you read my comment to SD that this happened (actually) more than once on Clinton's watch, as well as Hillary's parade... Did you rant as much? Just curious. SD - Political parties are "private" groups. And I'd wager you can't wander into a Demo meeting, either. DA - Enjoy yourself. Laughter is good for you. Peaches - Is that Tiny Peaches?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:47:06 PM EST
    PPJ - you know as well as I that Kerry's rallies were open to the public while Bushes were closed for the most part, some requiring loyalty oaths. He had an "open" forum on SS in the last 2 weeks were you had to be registered repub to get in. The Repubs say the right words and then do what they want.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 04:57:41 PM EST
    SD - Do you think you could have gotten into the affair where Whoopi poppiedd on herself? No. You guys and gals just don't learn. You keep complaining about the things that all politicians, and parties do, and then you don't get it when the average person just looks ar you, scratches their head, and walks away.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Peaches on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:03:58 PM EST
    ppj Peaches - Is that Tiny Peaches? Are you laughing at me? I'm insulted.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    “like statistics you can tell some pretty darn good lies, and a few damn lies with a good understanding of math.” Math is certain and immutable, if I tell you the manner of a measurement, the method of analysis, and the result, you would be able to replicate it. The lies come after the fact; i.e. the recent poll which purported to show that ‘almost half of respondents polled nationally said they believe the U.S. government should -- in some way -- curtail civil liberties for Muslim Americans’. I would have said the report showed that at least 27% of Americans favored ‘curtail[ing] civil liberties for Muslim Americans’. I guess you have to read the study, not just the headline.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by soccerdad on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:30:08 PM EST
    PPJ - you are laughable, a complete clown

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 05:57:02 PM EST
    Jim, Still havent given up on lunch, but I'll probably only make it as far south as San Fran

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 06:07:31 PM EST
    Also, I think that Jim's observation, while true, is not really a facet of the internet. I grew up in a small farm town. Fistfights were common, and not considered a big deal. If a fight happened at school, detention was the maximum punishment. Now people (kids too) get arrested for any little fight. I have noticed that many people take advantage by being incredibly offensive. If/when they get punched, they call the police, and they become a "victim", one of the most coveted titles in America today. sad

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:06:14 PM EST
    peaches - ;-) OK, Big Peaches it is. ;-) SD - Someday, reality will visit you. Roger - There's a fair sized game I will be in next month in the San Jose/San Fran area. Got a schedule? Maybe they match. And I think you've got a point. Boys fought. And no one cared. Of course the fights were mostly of fists and 'rassaling around. A few scrapes and bruises and a bloody nose or two. And you learned to show some respect, and to watch your mouth, that is unless you wanted to call someone out. And just by demonstrating that you would fight, you earned respect and you didn't have to.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by roger on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:10:13 PM EST
    Jim, Exactly my point Possibly in SF end of March

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Richard Aubrey on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 07:13:36 PM EST
    Ref. General Mattis. Great guy. You'll note that he was referring specifically to those who had been seriously abusing women. I am put in mind of two of Kipling's shorter poems, both from "Epitaphs from The Great War. "Raped and Revenged". One used and butchered me. Another spied me broken. For which thing an hundred died. Thus it was learned among the heathen hosts How much a freeborn woman's favor costs." "V.A.D." [Volunteer Auxiliary Detachment--the adminstrative corps of nursing sisters in WW I] "Ah, would swift ships ne'er had been, For then we ne'er had found These harsh Aegean rocks between, This little virgin drowned. Whom never spouse nor child shall mourn, But men she nursed through pain, And, certain keels for whose return the heathen look in vain." Is there such a thing as too high a price to be charged to someone who abuses women? See Larry Summers for one answer. Anyway, I am aware that TLers would prefer our guys be like the character in Hemingway's "The Killers" who gets buck fever and the bad guys kill the boxer. Somehow, TLers think that somebody else will intervene somehow and they'll be safe, even if the preferred protectors are too prissy to actually, you know, do anything effective. Fortunately, nobody else thinks that.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:08:34 PM EST
    cp - I take it from the above that you assume that you are above average. Do you have any tangible assests that demonstrate this? As for the terrorists, I doubt there is anything beyond, "I surrender," that you can say that will effect them.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by cp on Mon Feb 14, 2005 at 08:51:11 PM EST
    richard aubrey, it becomes clearer and clearer that you think not at all. [insult deleted] mattis is ....a pr disaster, looking for a place to happen. i'll not deny him his right to enjoy killing people, just keep it to himself, that's why he makes the big bucks. generals have a political as well as military duty, that's part of the job description. if he doesn't understand that, he needs to resign, now, before he does more damage. it's that kind of stupid comment that gives the insurgent's ammunition. if he doesn't get it, he should get gone. "You guys and gals just don't learn. You keep complaining about the things that all politicians, and parties do, and then you don't get it when the average person just looks ar you, scratches their head, and walks away." actually ppj, we do "get it". we get that the "average person" is none too bright. the "average person" thinks saddam was involved in 9/11, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks wmd's were found in iraq, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks bush is a "moral" guy, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks social security is going to disappear, the facts notwithstanding. now, why is it, again, that i should give a rat's ** what the "average person" thinks?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Richard Aubrey on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:22:55 AM EST
    Currently, guys like Mattis are working to make sure terrorists don't like the results of getting caught practicing terrorism.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 06:13:05 AM EST
    PPJ:- I'm not married, but I generally see that as fighting talk. You've made many a low blow, Jim, so it's just nice to see you're beginning to acknowledge you have a problem. That's the first step towards solving it, as the AA say...now, all you have to do is stop saying 'do as I say, not as I do', and you'll be well on the road to recovery. Keep at it! :-P

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:01:56 AM EST
    Can anyone imagine Chomsky offering that "don't practice terrorism" jive to a child who lost his or her parents in the world trade center?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:16:58 AM EST
    Jim, So now tangible assets are an emblem of character? I guess that makes Donald Trump a better man than Martin luther King, Jr. . . .

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:29:33 AM EST
    Common sense is a tangible asset, glanton. Try to spot it in cp's post.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:35:42 AM EST
    Doctor: Even if we bypass physics and concede the point that common sense is tangbile, I do think cp demonstrates lots of it in the post we're talking about. cp wrote: "generals have a political as well as military duty, that's part of the job description." That sounds like common sense to me. Obviously you and Jim don't think Mattis's comment damages his political image: but that's debatable, after all, not self-evident one way or the other. Some think it's okay for the General to express enjoyment at shedding the blood of "some people," and others don't. Later.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 09:49:59 AM EST
    Naaah, glanton. This undoes it: "actually ppj, we do "get it". we get that the "average person" is none too bright. the "average person" thinks saddam was involved in 9/11, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks wmd's were found in iraq, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks bush is a "moral" guy, the facts notwithstanding. the "average person" thinks social security is going to disappear, the facts notwithstanding."

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:21:53 AM EST
    Peaches- “When I come to TL and I read you and Ace, Piggy, and others, I am insulted by your tone and ignorance.” I’m surprised you would take issue with my tone. Every conversation we have engaged in you have been relatively rude and insulting, and I, as I usually do, mainly stuck to the issues at hand. As to my ignorance, I confess I am ignorant of many things, and as such refrain from discussing them. So, I challenge you to find an instance where I insulted you when I had not been insulted previously, and further an instance where I made an assertion that was false and have yet to retract. “Well, FU! You ain't sh#@! And I long ago gave up on engaging in civil discourse with you. But, I do come back because I enjoy telling you to F#$% off!” Nice.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 11:53:30 AM EST
    WARNING: Even though gasoline is a liquid substance, it should never be used to extinguish a fire.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:26:33 PM EST
    Can anyone imagine Chomsky offering that "don't practice terrorism" jive to a child who lost his or her parents in the world trade center?
    I can. If I lost a loved one that day, I would want to find out everything I could about why it happened. You don't seriously believe our past foreign policy was not a factor in us being attacked, do you?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 12:58:44 PM EST
    Matt W - You know, you gotta be kidding me. "Do you still beat your wife?" is a description of a type of question that there is no correct answer to. If you say no, then you must have at one time. If you say yes, well the result is obvious. It has been used in debates, etc., for years. I thought you knew that. But as Churchill said, "One people, separated by a common language." pigwiggle - Now you're being mean to Big Peaches. He is a sensitive sort, so please cut him some slack. cp - The duty of generals is to win wars. When someone complained about Grant's drinking, Lincoln said, "Find out what kind of whiskey he drinks and send a barrel to each of my Generals." As Lincoln said when preparing to remove McCellean from command, "May I borrow your army? I need to give it to a general who will fight." glanton - Are you answering for yourself or cp? If you claim that you are better than average, you certainly should have something to show it. More education, more degrees, more money, more property. I mean, something.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    DA - To quote PPJ: "Why would a reasonable person pay attention to Chomsky?"

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:27:16 PM EST
    kdog, puh-leeeeez. Only the lowest life-forms sneak-attack innocent people. Only the lowest life-forms blame innocent people for being attacked.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 02:54:48 PM EST
    kpuppy, You are one sick puppy. Biting the hand that feeds you. BAD PUPPY - BAD

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 04:53:12 PM EST
    To answer your question: "So that they might learn something." It's just that simple.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:12:25 PM EST
    Darkie Upon seeing Japanese Imperial agression throughout Asia, on the Summer of '41, we imposed a trade embargo on Japan. That provoked them into attacking us in Hawaii, Wake, Guam, and The Phillipines. Thus, by following your defeatist myopic logic, we should have learnt that by embargoing Japan would only have made things worse. Now I get it!!!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peaches on Tue Feb 15, 2005 at 05:24:01 PM EST
    Piglet, What ppj says.

    Monday Open Thread | 59 comments (59 topical)