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Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint

University of Colorado Ethnic Studies Professor Ward Churchill continues to be a hot topic of debate, both in MSM and by bloggers. Here's the latest:

In one corner, we have Law Professor Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit, writing at his MSNBC blog. Glenn says that Churchill shouldn't be fired, but he is very critical of Churchill as a scholar. In the opposite corner, is Kurt Nimmo, writing for Counterpunch, who sees similarities between Churchill and Sami al-Arian, the professor from Tampa who has been sitting in a jail cell in isolation awaiting trial on terrorism charges, which Nimmo says largely stem form pro-Palestinian views.

Also weighing in are Law Prof Eugene Volokh of the Volokh Conspiracy, writing for the Rocky Mountain News, who says that firing Churchill would set a dangerous precedent from an academic freedom and First Amendment perspective, but might be appropriate on the grounds that he misrepresented his biographical details. And Alexander Cockburn at Counterpunch, who is very angry at the "right-wing mad dogs" and says that the fervor has already spread to another professor at different university.

The ACLU weighs in and asks the governor, legislators and the University of Colorado Board of Regents to "stop threatening" CU professor Ward Churchill's job."

Is there anyone willing to stick up for Churchill and his writings? Or to put them in perspective? We found Joshua Frank, also writing at Counterpunch, who trashes the liberals who are trashing Churchill, and provides his view of Churchill's writings, which differ considerably from those of Glenn and Eugene.

One Colorado state representative has called for a review of CU's tenure system. I'm sure plenty of pure academics will write about that, but since this is a weblog, not a law review or a textbook, I'm going to leave that topic alone for now. Suffice it to say, at the current time,

For a faculty member to be fired at CU, the school must show incompetence, neglect of duty, insubordination, conviction of a felony, moral turpitude, sexual harassment or "other conduct which falls below minimum standards of professional integrity."

TalkLeft's coverage, with a diverse range of views expressed in hotly-debated comments, is here.

If you would like to hear Churchill speak for himself, you can read this statement --or this interview --or you can head up to C.U. Boulder Tuesday night where he will be speaking at 7pm at the University Memorial Center's Glenn Miller Ballroom. No backpacks or signs on sticks allowed.

Update: On a related note, read Salmon Rushdie's op-ed in Sunday's LA Times, Democracy is No Tea Party:

Offense and insult are part of everyday life for everyone in Britain (or the U.S., for that matter). All you have to do is open a daily paper and there's plenty to offend. Or you can walk into the religion section of a bookshop and discover you're damned to various kinds of eternal hellfire, which is certainly insulting, not to say overheated.

The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted, or in which they have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted, is absurd.

In the end, a fundamental decision needs to be made: Do we want to live in a free society or not? Democracy is not a tea party where people sit around making polite conversation. In democracies, people get extremely upset with each other. They argue vehemently against each other's positions. (But they don't shoot.)

Update: Thread hijacked, comments closed.

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    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 09:36:19 PM EST
    Good.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Feb 06, 2005 at 10:51:48 PM EST
    Thank you for posting this updated thread. Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, has information about Ward Churchill, "incomplete" and still in development, nevertheless already providing a lot of useful related links, updated 7 Feb. 2005 (and ongoing due to this controversy). I have been finding a lot of comments both supporting and opposing Churchill's perspective posted in reply to articles and entries in a variety of blogs and internet-based news sites. People seem not only intellectually divided over the issues that he raises centering on 9/11 but also emotionally distraught about the manner in which he has raised them. Sorting out the related (highly-rhetorical) controversy concerning his claims about his American Indian heritage is quite difficult at this point. To be fair both to him and to the issues being debated, I would urge people (including administrators and colleagues at the University of Colorado) to keep an open mind and not to succumb to unsubstantiated rumors or partially-established charges and counter-charges. As both an American citizen and a tenured member of an academic community, he is entitled to freedom of speech and due process.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 04:57:14 AM EST
    I liked the Op-Ed piece on Ward Churchill By Reggie Rivers

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 05:30:44 AM EST
    If Instahack were on my side I'd give up

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 06:36:56 AM EST
    Before anyone screams Academic Freedom- please rteconsider your preconcieved notions about Larry Summers.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 06:53:26 AM EST
    i don't think that anyone was calling for larry summers to be fired for making his controversial remarks, because dr. summers has the right to say what he believes to be true, just as dr. chuchill does.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 07:41:16 AM EST
    Susan - Not to belabor a point, but you continue with the YesButs without explaining why referring to people who were killed randomly, and just because they worked in a readily identifable American symbol, "little Eichmanns" is not hate speech. And yes, I know you have posted links. But please. Why can't you explain it in your own words? I think anyone should be able to identify hate speech, and easily define it. Let me help you, as you do seem to be waffling. If one Texan walks up to another Texan he hasn't seen in a long time and says, "Why Joe Bob, you ole son of a b*tch, how yall doin?" with a grin on his face... That isn't hate speech, and will be accepted with a grin and cordial reply. On the other hand, if the same Texan walks up and says, "You son of a b*itch, quit messing in my business," the result will be entirely negative, because that is an aggressive, hate speech attack. Context is everything. And when the speaker follows up, as Churchull has, with statements such as: Catherine Clyne: "Your recent works detail the documentable history of the consequences of U.S. imperialism. After reading On the Justice of Roosting Chickens and listening to your two CDs, what do you want your audience to walk away with? Churchill: A fundamental understanding of the nature of their obligation to intervene to bring the kind of atrocities that I’ve described to a halt by whatever means are necessary. .....(Churchill)... " I want the state gone: transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether. " The above from the Churchhill interview in sayta.mag Now, how does the "little eichmanns" comment sound, based on the last quotation. How do you get something "Out of existence?" Does the previous quotation provide you a clue? A small hint?

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 07:53:04 AM EST
    This guy should be fired. He's only defended by a lot of you people because somewhat sympathetic to what he says. If he was up there, ranting about how black people deserved to die in 9/11 b/c they weren't contributing anything to society, nobody would be talking this academic freedom stuff. Hate speech is hate speech.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 08:03:08 AM EST
    Back on Dec '41, would anyone have ever conceived such sedicious thoughts against our citizens residing in Wake, The Phillipines, Hawaii or Guam? Why must we ponder the motivational impulses of a mugger that assaults us in a dark corner? When such a horrible crime occurs to you, the criminal's deprived background is none of one's concern. To reflect otherwise would be to blame the victim for the agressor's actions.Agression of that barbaric kind, can't be reasoned with. You can't cuddle our current enemies into submission. In our society, when a sociopath goes out on a rampage we take him out. We only introspect on his psycho/social illnes only when he is either behind bars or pushing up daisies. In the meantime, we as a society, prosecute him without mercy. The same is said for our foreign enemies. The cuddling and healing will come after they are utterly destroyed. Witness The Marshall Plan in Germany and Japan. There was no stone left over stone in those two countries countries in '45. Only when the global threat of fascism was done and over with, did we focus our attention to healing those societies. It is beyond words, to see a fellow citizen blame his own flesh and blood for the atrocities of September 11th. An atrocity of foreign aggression, on our own soil. Shame Dr. Churchill.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 11:52:25 AM EST
    It is beyond words, to see a fellow citizen blame his own flesh and blood for the atrocities of September 11th. An atrocity of foreign aggression, on our own soil. As Churchill points out, the attacks on the US were virtually a foregone conclusion from our foreign policy decisions, utterly predictable and thus avoidable. Therefore, the US government and by extension, the US citizenry, are proximate causes for the attacks, since a greater political awareness on the part of the US populace would have made them aware of what their government was doing. In any case, both the 9/11 attacks and the Iraq war were perpetrated by people very willing to kill innocent bystanders to accomplish their policy goals. The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. Don't believe me? Bin Laden said it himself! So, Bin Laden attacks the US in order to end US abuses against Arabs. And Bush attacks Iraq in order to end Saddam abuses against Iraqis. Both were willing to kill innocent bystanders. Who is "justified"? No one deserves to die the way those people did on 9/11, but the apparent proximate causes of their deaths are the actions of the US government and the larger geopolitics surrounding it. So when you justifiably excoriate Bin Laden for his willingness to kill innocents to achieve policy points, remember to do the same for George Bush, who killed thousands of US troops and tens of thousands of Iraqis to achieve policy points as well.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 11:58:39 AM EST
    Entropy... The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. And those documented abuses would be.....???? Don't believe me? Bin Laden said it himself! Well.... it must be true then... we all know he's an upstanding guy. Nice talking points...but they don't fly

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:04:04 PM EST
    The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. And those documented abuses would be.....???? AH, here we go. So, if I actually present evidence of US (and/or US-supported Israeli) abuses of Arabs in the Middle East, then you will completely and utterly agree with my point? Just to make this clear, you completely and utterly agree with me if I provide evidence of US abuses in the Middle East? If you argue that you STILL won't agree with me if I provide evidence of Middle East abuses, please explain why and on what basis.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:07:35 PM EST
    Entropy, what type of ambivalent double talk is coming out of your keyboard? You are elevating the twisted syncopathic logic of Bin Laden, to that of our President. By-the-way, I am not glorifying Bush in this; Gore would have reacted the same way. When a foreign power struck at us on Dec '41, our president stoodup and declared open war on our then enemies. To this day, no one dares to call Roosevelt a blood thirsty killer of innocents. Our President then declared war on tyrany. For this, we have him today in our pantheon of great presidents. Open your coin purse and you will see his visage. Though not in the same league of grateness, today's President has reacted in the same exact way, and yet he only deserves our contempt? Boquisucio

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:11:29 PM EST
    When a foreign power struck at us on Dec '41, our president stoodup and declared open war on our then enemies. To this day, no one dares to call Roosevelt a blood thirsty killer of innocents. We didn't provoke that foreign power, however. In this particular case, there is significant evidence that we ourselves have caused the Arabs to attack us by our abuses and attempts to be a hegemonic power in the Middle East. Their actions could be (and probably to them are) justified as self-defense. Like Churchill says, how do they make us see the pain we are inflicting on them without inflicting pain on us? Write letters? I'm not defending the attacks, I'm simply pointing out that they were utterly predictable and unsurprising results of our own actions.

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:18:28 PM EST
    The 9/11 attackers want us out of the Middle East, because of our and Israel's documented abuses against the Arabs of the area. Let me follow the logic of this arguement: 1) The attackers of 9/11 slapped us because we are friends of Israel. 2) It is a well documented fact that the attacker firends want Israel to cease from existence. 3) Thus,our attackers want us to withdraw our firendship from Israel, so it will be easier for the friends of the attackers to destroy the only Midle Eastern Western Democracy out of Existence. I see you point crystal clear. You are siding with our enemies. Boqusucio

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:23:27 PM EST
    We didn't provoke that foreign power... In the Summer of '41 we saw the shape of Japanese agression throughout Asia, thus we set upon a trade embargo against the Japanese. This was one of the principal justifications for the Japanese to strike at us at Wake, The Phillipines and Hawaii, six months thereafter. It still did not make it right for the Japanese to strike at us, and it still doesn't make it right for the Arabs to do the same on Sept '01. Boquisico

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:26:32 PM EST
    I see you point crystal clear. You are siding with our enemies. The question here is really simple. Have we done things in the Middle East that a reasonable person would consider to be abusive or evil? i.e., things that if someone else did them to us, we'd be really upset? This is a simple question of fact. If it's true, then you must utterly agree with my point. If it's false, then of course my entire point falls down, because then we're being attacked by crazy people. So, that's the question, I'll ask you the same thing I asked the other person. Do you agree that if I present evidence of US/Israeli abuses of Arabs on the order of the 9/11 attacks, then you will agree to utterly fold in this argument?

    Re: Ward Churchill: Point, Counterpoint (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Feb 07, 2005 at 12:30:01 PM EST
    "In this particular case, there is significant evidence that we ourselves have caused the Arabs to attack us by our abuses and attempts to be a hegemonic power in the Middle East." Oh please, I'm s