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Monday: Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:15:34 AM EST
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There's a lot going on today. Here's a place to discuss it. If you need something to get started, check out George Hunsinger's op-ed in the Baltimore Sun, American Scar, on Alberto Gonzales, Abu Ghraib and torture. George is a theology professor who regularly visits and often comments on TalkLeft.

Another hot topic today: An eerie similarity between the Iraq election and the Vietnam election of 1967.

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    • Monday: Open Thread | 13 comments (13 topical)
    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 10:59:17 AM EST
    Is it time to change the name of the Dept of Defense back to the "Dept of War"? Then we could change the Dept of Homeland Security to "Dept of Defense", giving both a title more in keeping with their current functions

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by wg on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 11:34:31 AM EST
    eerie similarity ... The fact that there is no equivalent of North Vietnam and China here makes any comparisons to Vietnam entirely irrelevant. It's them and us, there is nobody else. -- Had I been living there for the last two years I would run not walk to a polling place. Out of desperation. What other options do they have? Insurgency won't get them anywhere. -- Victory for Iraqi people? Only if they regain control over their own country which is sadly unlikely -- the election was run by our people and they should be able to continue to run things. I expect the new legislature to be basically toothless. Chances are the country will continue to be run by the current CIA installed mafia for long time to come. -- The country is very much destroyed, we reduced them to beggars, and beggars are in no position to be too fussy. Thus things should be manageable. -- So rejoice, the chances are that 300B neocon gambit will pan out.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:34:22 PM EST
    wg - This is not original with me, I forgot who said it first, but: If we had not invaded, would there have been a free election yesterday?

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by wishful on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:00:34 PM EST
    Did we invade Iraq to execute a "free" election? And how is a free election defined? Judith Miller said yesterday that the administration will offer Amhed Chalabi a position as Minister of the Interior. How does this follow from a genuine free election? Maybe the US could actually put itself in more of a consultant position politically, now that this sovereign nation has had a successful election. BTW, this means that the US doesn't get to choose the Iraqi Ministers of Anything. Maybe we could provide our military services as adjunct law and order and training functions. And maybe Iraqis should award rebuilding contracts, including mandatory employment of Iraqi professionals and laborers. Maybe even awards to Iraqi businesses. Assuming that we have had the Iraqi's best interest at heart all along, shouldn't the US be helping them to function independently? How will they ever get back on their feet if Haliburton keeps "winning " all of the jobs? If we don't like that, we should have thought of it before we invaded to free the Iraqi people, because that is what it will take. Unless of course that is not our intent.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:56:38 PM EST
    I comment on the recent highschoolers and press freedom survey here.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:45:43 PM EST
    wishful - You now are a qualified "Commaist." You know. The election was a good thing, but ... You may also be a "YesBut." Yes, millions voted, but... No need to thank me, the honor is spread among many.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:46:58 PM EST
    BTW - Credit to Grouchy Old Cripple and Diplomaid for the above.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by wishful on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:21:54 PM EST
    Other than your cutesy exercise at labeling me, which adds nothing of substance, you have made no point PPJ. I reject your labels, BTW. It is true that the US should act in deed as if we support Iraq's budding democracy, not merely in words. The administration seems to have their theory of free markets, capitalism and democracy figured out. Changing these in their treatment of nation building in Iraq would betray another intent entirely.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by BigTex on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 09:51:36 PM EST
    It's not news yet, but how much trouble do y'all think will come if th' SEC starts t' go after foreign corporations fer violations o' th' Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in th' Oil-fer-Food scandal? Th' extraterritoral reach o' th' act colud go pretty far. Che and Kelite - I'll call them fillies from now on, though forgive me if there's an occasional slip or bout o' indignation regardin' a particular story. Not that I think it's right t' compromise m' principles regardin' th' matter, but in an effore t' be civil and not cause needless discord.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by cp on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 11:02:21 PM EST
    ppj, true to form, you continue to be your honest idiot self in public. have you no shame at all? never mind, silly question. i wondered if anyone was going to point out the similarity between vietnam and iraq, with regards to the "free" election. not that i am advocating fighting it all over again, but it would be nice if we actually learned from our mistakes, especially those so very recently made. no, there isn't a north vietnam, and no nva, yet. however, there is iran, syria, jordan, the uae, saudi arabia, etc., none of whom can possibly believe an actual democratic iraq is a good thing for their leadership. what kind of example would that set for their populace?

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by john horse on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 04:30:02 AM EST
    wg, re:"The fact that there is no equivalent of North Vietnam and China here makes any comparisons to Vietnam entirely irrelevant." You get my nomination for the Orwell Doublespeak Award for this week. Another way that there was a similarity was the claim, as Oliver Willis has pointed out, that we have reached another "turning point." This is the carrot on the stick that keeps the ole mule plowing the field.

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 05:16:01 AM EST
    'Nother Vietnam? Doubt it. More likely another Northern Ireland. Or perhaps another El Salvador?

    Re: Monday: Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 10:32:45 AM EST
    This shows the same perspective from the Govt ("we won!), in face of unrecognized and taunted opposition (in Vietnam they were 'communists' rather than 'insurgents'): U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote : Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror by Peter Grose, Special to the New York Times (9/4/1967: p. 2) WASHINGTON, Sept. 3-- United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam's presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 per cent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday.  Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. The size of the popular vote and the inability of the Vietcong to destroy the election machinery were the two salient facts in a preliminary assessment of the nation election based on the incomplete returns reaching here.

    Monday: Open Thread | 13 comments (13 topical)