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Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election

The right-wing blogosphere, like President Bush, considers the elections a triumph for democracy. The top liberal bloggers, Daily Kos, Atrios, Josh Marshall, knowing better, are either ignoring the elections or have moved on.

Other liberal bloggers express their criticism: Oliver Willis, Talking Dog; Maxspeak; Jerome Armstrong of MyDD; Armando at Daily Kos; Juan Cole.

For the most part, Iraqi bloggers are jubilant. Raed in the Middle is not. If you're reading news coverage, don't forget to read reports from the Arab world to get both sides.

If you've commented on TalkLeft about the elections, tune into MSNBC between 5:30 and 6:00 pm. I'll be discussing blogger reaction opposite Jeff Jarvis on Ron Reagan and Monica Crowley's new show, and they intend to read a few of your comments on the air.

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    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#1)
    by theologicus on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:18:25 PM EST
    Here's what some democratic elements in Iraq have said would be a free and fair election: First- Announce a timetable for ending the occupation and withdrawal of foreign troops completely from all areas of Iraq, with support of the Security Council. Second- Conduct the elections under international supervision decided by the UN with personalities well known for its credibility and respect by the world peoples. Third- Agree, as much as possible, on a fair system for proportional representation for all sectors of Iraqi society. Fourth- Representatives of the main sectors of Iraqi society to announce its rejection of the campaigns of destruction and killing of Iraqi towns conducted by US forces, and also condemn the terrible crimes and mutilations perpetrated by suspect cliques that damage the reputation of the Iraqi people and the legitimate patriotic resistance and provide great services for the occupiers, helping them in justifying the occupation. Are we there yet? [Via Lenin's Tomb.]

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#2)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    If Kerry or Clinton couldda pulled off such a feat, the Left'd be canonizing them by now. These are some of the great moments of history we're witnessing.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:20:57 PM EST
    Democracy has advanced today in the Middle East, whether Kos and Atrios choose to ignore it or belittle or not; some of us who formerly were on the liberal-left side, and had a change of heart and mind, look at those you still there with more pity than anger.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#4)
    by Andreas on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    The January 30 elections in Iraq have nothing to do with democracy. To claim a “free” election can take place in Iraq is no different to asserting that the French, Yugoslav or Greek people could have elected a representative government in 1942 while living under the jackboot of Nazi rule. Over the past two years, Iraq has been subjected to invasion and a military occupation that has plunged the country into a social and political catastrophe. The Bush administration has brought the Iraqi people 50 to 70 percent unemployment, food and fuel shortages, a breakdown in essential services such as electricity, a collapse in basic law-and-order and dictatorial forms of rule little changed from those of the Baathist regime. ... The transitional government that takes office in Baghdad in the aftermath of the ballot should be rejected as illegitimate both in Iraq and throughout the world.
    The Iraq election: a travesty of democracy By James Cogan, 27 January 2005

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:28:39 PM EST
    Democracy has advanced today in the Middle East. Hmmm. I suspect a lot of Iraqis think they're voting for the U.S. to get out. They'e in for a big disappointment, no? In their future are a lot of U.S corporations and military bases. Not to mention death and destruction. Liberty, as we've been told, is hard work.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:36:21 PM EST
    Theo - Could you actually identify those "some democratic elements...?" Not that I don't believe you, but I just want to be sure you're not just funning us.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#7)
    by theologicus on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:45:05 PM EST
    Regular readers all know how much Jim like to play poker.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#8)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:49:19 PM EST
    Deuce, Well said. The Left in its current form died today; the remaining spasms of anti-democratic protest don't mean anything. They are openly irrelevant now, regardles of what they try to tell themselves. Democracy wins again.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#9)
    by theologicus on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 12:52:33 PM EST
    Democracy wins again. I get it. Mission Accomplished.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#10)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:00:38 PM EST
    Theo, It's fun to watch you squirm. Bush did what the Left could not. Hell, even as he did it, you said it was impossible. But it wasn't. Bush was right and the Left was wrong. Democracy wins again.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Theo - So you can't name the source, eh? No surprise there.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:03:17 PM EST
    Why is it the left is so angry today? Could it be they honestly are only joyful when our own serviceman and foreign policies fail? Iraqi's were celebrating in the streets as over 60% of the registered voters voted. This is indeed a triumphant day!!

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:10:59 PM EST
    Not at all angry about the elections. Cautious? Definitely. Skeptical? You bet. Excited? Not under the circumstances.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#14)
    by Peaches on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:13:32 PM EST
    Why is it the left is so angry today? I think the left is probably ambivalent. At least about the election. Could it be they honestly are only joyful when our own serviceman and foreign policies fail? Would a real man who really loved jesus suggest such a thing? Or are the only real men who love jesus on the right?

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:19:14 PM EST
    I guess I was hoping for better from the party of FDR and JFK today. I've inked my index finger blue today in support of the millions of Iraqi's who really get it. And I've extend my other key finger towards the rotten bits of the left htat are stinking up the politics of our country. Man, I really miss having a Democrat to vote for. -C

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#16)
    by theologicus on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:26:08 PM EST
    Here I go again, breaking my own rule about not replying to trolls. There's no percentage in it, since obviously some of them can't read, others can only impute motives, while others just like making insults. How anyone can think that what happened in Iraq today is a victory for democracy is beyond me.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:31:13 PM EST
    democracy prevailed, at end of the barrel of empires guns. anything other than a total blood bath is a victory for bunny pants. your march of freedom rings hollow. you destroyed the cradle of civilzation and have no intention of leaving the conquered iraq. bush has done nothing except his usual -death and destruction. so cheer on. he is leading his empire into cultural degeneration. gloat on your phyrric victory. democracy ? sponge bob? the second coming?

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    Man, I really miss having a Democrat to vote for. -C LOL! Me too.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:42:26 PM EST
    I have yet to hear anyone on the left speak out against the election. I think many are encouraging the often reactionary bunch in this country to be patient before they run around declaring mission accomplished yet again. Perhaps the greatest threat an insurgency poses is their ability to outlast the enemy.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#20)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    GregZ, You've yet to hear the Left speak against the elections? Huzzaba this very post that we are commenting on? "The right-wing blogosphere, like President Bush, considers the elections a triumph for democracy. The top liberal bloggers, Daily Kos, Atrios, Josh Marshall, knowing better, are either ignoring the elections or have moved on." Knowing better? Knowing that it's not a triumph? But it is.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:59:28 PM EST
    ras I think knowing implies that it is much too early to gain anything from this election other than many people participated and calling it a triumph is a bit pre-mature. Forgive us if we don't jump on the bandwagon once again.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:02:57 PM EST
    I make it a policy of not responding to ignorant trolls but here goes: Theo, You freely quote so called democratic elements in Iraq. Who are they? Can you idenify them? You also insult the Iraqi people when you state that many think that they were voting today for the US to get out. They know what they are voting for but maybe you have some inside info we don't? Share it with us please. Mark PS: Did you really mean to use the word impute? W....still the PRESIDENT W....still THE MAN

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#23)
    by Adept Havelock on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:12:19 PM EST
    Only a ideological fool would declare that today's event: 1) Signalled anything other than a single step in a VERY long process. 2) Did nothing to advance democracy. That is nothing more than a dumb "bush-haters" dream. 3) Should be taken as yet another "death" knell of the left. I've been hearing this nonsense for years. That is nothing more than what I've long referred to as a John Bircher's wet dream.... Let's take a deep breath, lose the BS, and acknowledge it for what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. A step in the right direction whose long term effect is yet to be seen. As I said before, when IRAQ is capable of hosting it's own elections w/out thousands of US troops and locking down the entire country, I'll believe there is some real progress towards creating a democratic society. Until then, I'll continue to laugh at the absolute naysayers and premature triumphalists both.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:28:36 PM EST
    ras - Give my regards to all in that parallel universe(safely ensconced away from all the messiness)that you obviously exist in. Yeah Bush did an amazing thing - murdering and traumatizing tens of thousands- including many innocents-and intimidating most of the rest into compliance.Of course we all remember you proclaiming that Bush "triumphed" in all the debates and would no doubt break into spontaneous applause(for a green card?)if he had a healthy evacuation.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:42:57 PM EST
    The election is very illegitimate, and I don't believe the US has any less power over iraq now than it did before. But I am glad the iraqis are making an effort to take control of their nation--- both to achieve unity and eventaully to expel the criminal occupation.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 02:58:51 PM EST
    What an amazing video Jeff showed of cars honking and people celebrating in the streets. Truly a wonderful day for the people of Iraq.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:00:47 PM EST
    It's too early to celebrate this election. What will matter is whether the those elected today will be able to stay alive and actually run Iraq. This election will be a success only if Iraq will be able to be self-sustaining.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#28)
    by cp on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:03:07 PM EST
    oh ras, you silly goose, you! let's see if i have this straight, stop me when i go to far.: the united states, under gw, invades a country that poses no direct threat to us. than, while we're still busy cleaning up those "small" pockets of resistance, we decide that country will have "free" elections. while we still occupy said country. further, we, more or less, decide who will and won't be allowed to run for office, in these "free" elections. wooooo haaaaaaaaaa, free at last, free at last, thank god almighty, they're free at last! let's all give a shout for "democracy"! more or less. sort of. maybe. tell you what, let's see how things are in ten years, then we'll talk. assuming we aren't still an occupying force at that time.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:12:31 PM EST
    This is a great day for Democracy. Thank you President Bush for sending our troops and freeing the Iraqi people. The election is legitimate. Thank you to all our military, keep up the good work.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    democrats must get back to reality instead of fantasyland.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:19:46 PM EST
    Theo - I'm still waiting for the source of your comments at 1:18PM. And I assure you that if I can't actually read it, I'll find one of the neighbors who can read it to me. BTW - Aint it awful when you make something up and somebody calls you on it? Course, you could prove me wrong. Adept - A journey of a million miles starts with that first step.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#32)
    by ras on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:28:20 PM EST
    cp, Like the salmon, you swim upstream, in your case against the currents of history and democracy. Biggest diff is at least the fish get to spawn before they croak. Yeah, I do see the left dying. The fact that it's a slow death doesn't change that. Once the Dems held 70% of the Senate, for ex, and control of all branches of govt. But today ... and it's not just the US, guys. Revel in the Left's media dominance elsewhere while it lasts. Australia, Britain, Italy ... you can see the great ships turning, slowly but steadily. Now Iraq follows, too. Jondee, I never said Bush won the first debate outright. I thought he lost it short-term, on style (Bush was jittery; Kerry confident, and it showed) but Kerry made a few statements at the time that would ultimately haunt him long-term ("global test" etc). The polls were then neck & neck after the first debate, so Bush measurably won the final two debates, since the measure of victory was solely in votes cast; however, if you instead wish to assign some of Kerry's drop to the longer-term effects of his first-debate comments, that too would be plausible, meaning that perhaps Kerry did better in the 2nd or 3rd debate in compensation. Matter of opinion, really. And water under the bridge. To those who now say that the Iraq elections are but one step, with more to follow - sure, history never ends. But they were also the toughest of steps, and a triumph for democracy, the greatest since the fall of the Berlin wall. Those such as Z who make unfounded accusations that the elections were "illegitimate" confirm only their own sour grapes. If the Left is to get off its deathbed, it will need to first review its performance of late, and begin its renewal with a single word: "Oops"

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimcee on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 03:31:09 PM EST
    Omad,Hoopsky, You are both close to right.. Rayfer1, I concur.. Adept Havelock, Has it just about right. I'm just hoping....

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 04:27:59 PM EST
    Here's the reality, people...If Iraq can make it through the next forty years or so with a democratic government, and can quell any major challenges to that government, democracy may survive there. I say "may", not "will", because in that region of the world there's nothing definite. Don't be surprised, though, if democracy does fall flat there altogether, regardless of how much money or how many troops we put over there.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 04:54:38 PM EST
    Gee - unfortunately Iraq had their election today - how sad for American leftists. I could see Ron Reagan's scowl on MSNBC today. Well, tomorrow's another day - perhaps more "good news" will erupt -like homicide bombers. No wonder Democrats were wiped out on Nov 2nd.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:05:20 PM EST
    TL - I was just reading Captains Quarters and they had the following:
    UPDATE: I hope that MS-NBC puts a transcript of this show on its website. Jeralyn Merritt says twice that the casting of ballots doesn't make for legitimate government. Classic comedy from the Left! I can't wait for 2006.
    Say it ain't so! -C

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:07:44 PM EST
    I guess if you have to be "occupied"you couldn't choose a better occupier than the good old US of A. We have an annoying habit of encouraging free, open and secret ballot elections, rebuilding and then leaving unless asked to stay. And....you couldn't have a better friend. I live in Connecticut and I wish the neocons would occupy us. I still can't understand how these [name calling and profanity deleted] can watch the news coming in from Iraq and not be happy for the Iraqi people just because a tiny morsel of credit might go to President Bush.I marvel at their inability or unwillingness to see the big picture. The good news is the lefties are toast. Stick a fork in them. [Mark, you are limited to four comments a day.]

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:16:13 PM EST
    Boy the right must think Bush has terrible self esteem problems. They have to keep telling him he did a great job when he didn't. Even if you agree with the intent of the Bush administration --they have done a really crappy job of execution. Little planning or none and all of it based on the whispers of nut cases.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#39)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:16:49 PM EST
    Saddam had elections was that democracy? Hitler was elected hoiw did that work out? Elections are not a government, its not the laws and its not the constitution which isn't even written yet. Elections are but a first step on what could be a successful trip to democracy, but it might not. But for people to jump around like the job is done and everything is just fine, is ludicrous.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:19:08 PM EST
    Cliff, absolutely the casting of ballots in Iraq does not render the government legitimate. From this article:
    Such a government is possible only when Iraqis have real control over their own future. And that will come only when the United States is gone.


    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:45:04 PM EST
    65-72% turnout... so what... as I recall the turnout in the last election was almost 100%

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:45:36 PM EST
    Where was vote by mail -- no one is allowed to drive and polling places where often a mile or more away. The turn out numbers are twisted. Are they based on those eligible to vote or those registered to vote

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#43)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 05:57:45 PM EST
    I live in Connecticut and I wish the neocons would occupy us. That's nice. Have you had your grandma fitted for a saddle yet?

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 06:09:19 PM EST
    I might move to the right with you liberal guys who say the elections illegitament.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 06:12:37 PM EST
    we went into a country to show them how to achieve democracy? this is a joke right?.....this has got to be a joke because we haven't seen democracy since Bush been president. according to our elections they are everything else but a showmanship of democracy. so now it's democracy that we are still there for and not WMD's or imminent threats? i get confused on the reasons because there have been so many until i can't keep up.the reasons change from one week to the next. well, congratulations on a successful election and dont forget to guard those oil wells!

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 06:40:13 PM EST
    No Sunnis voted how can the election be called a success

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:13:22 PM EST
    Isn't the State of the Union address this week? Its soon, anyway. Seems like the Iraqi election was mainly timed to get applause for Bush at the State of the Union. A week from now we'll be back where we were a week ago: stuck with an occupation that is costing $5 billion a month and lives every day.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 07:19:21 PM EST
    TL - Oh, sorry, Zmag and Zschool
    "is a nine day school held every other year providing classes in alternative media skills, mainstream media, organizing skills, and radical theory, strategy, and vision."
    Featuring the every reasonable Noam Chomsky. How silly of me. At least as Fair and Balanced as Mr. O'Reilly. :-) My favorite bit is where they're selling a video series called "Life after Capitalism." -C

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 08:54:59 PM EST
    I always thought TalkLeft was a "reality-based" sane grounded leftist site, as opposed to the DU tinfoil hat types. I guess I was wrong. It's very dismaying to see these justifications for totalitarianism, and the racism of "those poor deluded Iraqis don't know what they are voting for." And the adolescent narcissicism of "the hell with what they Iraqis want, it's all about Meeeeee and my grand emotional ideological struggle with The Man."

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 09:42:00 PM EST
    Let us know the name of the show. Missed it and want to tivo it

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:31:43 AM EST
    I love that the left is so negative. They are just going to look even more stupid to rest of the nation. Left please just admit that you wished that the election would be a faiure because of Bush.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:32:11 AM EST
    TalkLeft says: "Such a government is possible only when Iraqis have real control over their own future. And that will come only when the United States is gone." So then - since we still have troops in Germany, Japan, and South Korea - all of those nations have illegitimate governments? No election since 1945 has been fair? You might read what Joshua Michael Marshall wrote yesterday. He's no fan of the administration, but unlike TalkLeft, was able to see the election as a good thing. Take your "I hate Bush" blinkers off for a few minutes and look at what took place in Iraq objectively.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:10:46 AM EST
    Soccerdad says..."Saddam had elections was that democracy?" Are you f'ing kidding me?!?! So you are going to compare Saddam's elections with what took place on Sunday? Well, thank you, you just proved your ignorance to us all. I don't remember seeing U.S. soldiers forcing Iraqis to vote under threat of torture or death, of course the left probably believes that that took place. Marty5220 says..."65-72% turnout... so what... as I recall the turnout in the last election was almost 100%" Man, I didn't think they got much more uninformed than Soccerdad but wow! As I said before, I don't remember seeing U.S. soldiers lining people up to vote under threats of torture and death, see Saddam got "100%" turnout, and he also got 100% of the vote, hmmm, sounds just like what took place sunday.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 11:52:39 AM EST
    C - There are more flavors than chocolate,vanilla,and strawberry and tepid and less tepid dosnt convey the entire thermal range - but then, if thought cant be verified by the pecking-order conservatism dosnt recognize it.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 12:01:29 PM EST
    ras - Forgive us if we ever thought outside the box - we're aware it dosnt play in Kansas and certain temperature controled enclaves in Canada. Btw,you said "Bush won" - those words - but,Ive given up expecting you to own up to anything. You represent your PNAC friends quite well.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 01:58:26 PM EST
    Like the clerics of old, who refused to accept the facts revealed by Galileo's telescope, Peanut Gallery and his ilk cleave to their programmed party dogma, comdemnimg the events unfolding before them because these events fly in the face of their cherished orthodoxy. Like the physicians who refused to accept Pasteur's germ theory of disease and disected cadavers and then performed operations without washing their hands, thses types will hold off advance until they finally die off. How pathetic to see these "progressives" cling to their backward minority status quo notions. It took 500 years for the church to apologize to Galileo. Don't hold your breath for these clowns. Ras, Jim, et. al., see what happens when you throw your pearls before swine?

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 02:23:47 PM EST
    Or when they subscribe to the National Review and learn how to type.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 03:03:17 PM EST
    Doesn't matter what you say, Jondee; the earth goes around the sun, not vice versa. Better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone...

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:17:46 PM EST
    I think that it's note worth to remember Martin Gardiner's Fads and Fallicies in the Name of Science, where great, misunderstood minds are seen comparing themselves to the G-Man. Of course, if by telescope you mean the 5 polling sites that were open to the media, then that's a different discussion.......

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 04:31:30 PM EST
    Telescope means telescope, Dark. And as you are demonstrating, dogma means dogma.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:13:33 PM EST
    Posted by theologicus at January 30, 2005 02:26 PM Here I go again, breaking my own rule about not replying to trolls. i have trouble with that one too, i guess we would have to conclude that that they are good at fostering confusion. How anyone can think that what happened in Iraq today is a victory for democracy is beyond me. yeah, it is that Mission Accomplished thingy. Posted by ras at January 30, 2005 02:56 PM Knowing better? Knowing that it's not a triumph? But it is. lets get these people in office, give them the resources needed to rebuild their country, observe a measurable decline in violence and full inclusion of all segments of the nation, then i'll give the effort a positive nod. Just to maintain focus, those accomplishments would be in spite of, not because of W.

    Re: Blogger Reaction to the Iraq Election (none / 0) (#63)
    by Bubba on Tue Feb 01, 2005 at 10:55:39 AM EST
    I've inked my index finger blue today in support of the millions of Iraqi's who really get it. That's just great. If you really believe in what you're saying a better way to support the cause would be to enlist in the military. I'm sure they could find something for you no matter your age or health.