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An Unnecessary Lesson

Matt Yglesiais writes:

Broadening the tax base to finance big cuts in tax rates is the heart of Mitt Romney’s economic plan. Obama made the elimination of deductions the centerpiece of his plan to raise more revenue from the corporate income tax, and Senate Democrats are counting on broad tax reform as a key element in Democratic budget policy if Obama wins in 2012. But in specific terms, Washington remains hooked on the allure of tax breaks. ... [E]ven if major tax reform somehow does occur, the lesson of the Olympic Tax Elimination Act is that Congress is likely to undermine reform at world-record speed.

Uh, duh? Regular readers know that I have argued that elimination of tax loopholes rarely survive the "reform." There is always a good reason to give a "tax break," especially for "job creators." Maybe liberal wonks will understand this now. We can not cut tax rates, period.

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    Yup. We'll cut out loopholes (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by cal1942 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 03:46:26 PM EST
    Always a subterfuge for lowering rates and the "loopholes" will come charging back.

    We end up with the same tax expenditures but with lower rates.

    And speaking of taxes, I still maintain Grover Norquist is more dangerous to this country than 100,000 Osama bin Ladens.

    Deja Vue (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    Even in-bred Limbaugh listeners should be able to connect the dots. Every time we lower taxes on the "job creators" the deficit goes up.

    So, what happened to all that money? From everything I read Corporations & 1%ers are sitting on a horde of cash, so many Trillions of dollars I think the earth is tipping on its axis.

    What's the answer to our fiscal dilemma? Obviously, the poor and middle class need to pay more.

    I don't know; when does stupidity roll over into insanity?


    In my opinion, tax credits and cuts for (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Farmboy on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:05:36 PM EST
    corporations by states and local governments always results in increased tax burdens for everyone else. In addition, once the tax credit / tax cut window closes the corporation leaves for greener pastures, taking the jobs with it.

    Parent
    I don't know, either. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:07:57 PM EST
    NYShooter: "[W]hen does stupidity roll over into insanity?"

    But when the Italians start complaining that Mitt Romney's business practices are too shady, even for them, I believe we're probably a lot closer than most of us realize.

    Parent

    Isn't part of Obama's plan (none / 0) (#5)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:11:02 PM EST
    to cut the corp tax rate?

    It is (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:15:49 PM EST
    I oppose the proposal.

    Parent
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:34:47 PM EST
    There are differences (none / 0) (#8)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 06:50:32 PM EST
    Obama:

    The main proposal for reform would slash the corporate tax rate to 28% from 35% and pay for the reduction by eliminating "dozens" of business tax breaks.

    The Obama administration's plan is in sync with Republicans in terms of wanting to lower the top rate. But Republicans want to lower the corporate rate even further to 25%

    Romney:

    The U.S. economy's 35 percent corporate tax rate is among the highest in the industrial world, reducing the ability of our nation's businesses to compete in the global economy and to invest and create jobs at home. By limiting investment and growth, the high rate of corporate tax also hurts U.S. wages.
     *Cut the corporate rate to 25 percent
     *Strengthen and make permanent the R&D tax credit
     *Switch to a territorial tax system
     *Repeal the corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)


    Parent
    So, the question is..... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by NYShooter on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 09:07:54 PM EST
    How did this beleaguered business man manage to amass a personal fortune approaching a half Billion dollars during a period when rates were much more "onerous" than they are now, not to mention what they would be should he become President?

    Then again, why should he worry whatever tax rates are? With Swiss Bank accounts, offshore tax havens, Mormon "charitable" deductions, and loopholes most of us have never even heard of, I think The Mittster would end up just fine.


    Parent

    And considering that the real corporate rate (none / 0) (#10)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 09:21:16 PM EST
    (after deducting for the lovely loopholes) is  27%, Obama's proposed 28% without loopholes is simply more honest overall. Romney's plan would take more revenue out of the system, and, according to the Congressional Research Service, wouldn't create more jobs. Our current corporate tax rate is pretty much on par with that of other developed, industrialized nations.

    And I won't even mention the dozens of U.S. corporations that pay 0% in taxes, but still get millions and billions in subsidies...

    Parent

    OK, I'll bite. (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 11:54:30 PM EST
    Who are the
    dozens of U.S. corporations that pay 0% in taxes, but still get millions and billions in subsidies...


    Parent
    Even if (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 01:59:29 AM EST
    we tamp down the hyperbole somewhat, do you question the fact that there are numerous, highly profitable corporations that are receiving Billions of dollars in subsidies, subsidies that may have been legitimate inducements for growth many years ago, but that have long since outlived their necessity? Can you articulate any benefit the American public receives from the multi billion dollar subsidy granted Exxon/Mobil?

    The answer is, of course, there is no economic justification for those give-a-ways other than them being ransom payments as a result of the political capture those Corporations exert over our Representatives.

    The issue isn't the diversionary tactic of whether Corporation XYX did, or did not, pay "0" in taxes. It's whether, or not, corporations, as a group, are the recipients of huge government welfare transfer payments, regardless of their financial necessity.  


    Parent

    So I looked up Exxon/Mobil a little. (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 03:56:50 PM EST
    I think you need to be specific about which "subsidies" you are talking about, that way we can discuss whether they are "give-aways" or not.

    fwiw, I'm not sure why we call them "subsidies" anyway since we generally equate the term to direct cash payment subsidies like we make to US farmers and farmland owners, and which we do not make to oil or most (any?) other industry.

    Anyway, all of the biggest "subsidies" are available to essentially all domestic co's, not just oil.

    Oil's profits are staggeringly huge, but then again they're our staggeringly hugest companies with the staggeringly hugest incomes.

    Their net profit, though, is around 10%, while MicroSoft and other tech co's are more than double that, around 25-30%.

    If you make it too much more expensive for E/M to provide fuel, we'll just end up buying more from the Saudis.

    Where is the "right" balance point? I sure don't know.

    Parent

    At least we can agree (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 04:54:48 PM EST
    On your last sentence: "Where is the "right" balance point? I sure don't know."

    Look, I don't want to get caught up in the minutia of tax incentives, subsidies, and/or give-aways. The point is that oil, like many of our industries, is cyclical in nature, and today's huge profits may easily fluctuate into tomorrow's losses. So, when one of our critical industries are suffering, or we want them to pursue a direction which currently is not profitable,  there's nothing wrong with our government giving them some temporary assistance, usually through the tax structure.

    The problem, of course, is the word, "temporary." When the once suffering industry regains its health, and profitability, its addiction to the "temporary" subsidy remains. And, so does the incestuous relationship it has with the politicians who have benefited by greasing the skids for that assistance. That's when "assistance" morphs into "scandal, corporate welfare, loophole," or whatever else you'd like to call it.

    But, now, when the whole country is suffering so painfully, and our deficit spending has brought us to "The Wall," its time for some reallocation of our limited resources. And, giving Exxon/Mobile a 3-4 Billion dollar subsidy during a quarter in which it produced approximately 15 Billion dollars in profits isn't the best use of our money. (I'm going from memory, please don't ask for a link)

    And, fwiw, pointing out the difference in net profits between companies in unrelated fields, energy extraction and technology, for instance, is meaningless when presented in a vacuum. Differences in margin rates are functions of all the other items that make up a P or L statement, i.e. the costs involved in producing the final product: R & D, labor, raw materials, etc.

    Bottom line: We have limited resources, and we need to rethink, and redirect, our priorities.

    Parent

    Ya, the point re: net profits (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 05:05:53 PM EST
    is that oil has such large numerical profits because the co's w/in the industry are so huge, not because the industry is inherently "rich."

    Parent
    and, (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 06:59:24 PM EST
    "...because the co's w/in the industry are so huge,"

    they are virtual countries within the world. Add to that their interlocking, cooperative relationships with other energy companies and it's not hard to understand why we'll never know the truth of their inner workings. One phone call from one part of the world, and a plant ten thousand miles away shuts down for "routine maintenance," causing a temporary shortage.

    Banks may have become TBTF, but oil companies have been allowed to grow too big to regulate.

    Parent

    Well, in case you're still reading this... (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 10, 2012 at 01:47:33 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure that if E/M was 10 separate co's, each with 1/10 the size, such that they were now ranked down around #50 of the biggest US co's instead of #1, then they wouldn't be on the hot-seat anymore.

    I think what it comes down to is that some people think these co's - maybe all co's? - simply don't pay their fair share of fed income taxes.

    Therefore, to them, it doesn't really matter what the tax policy is, it simply isn't good enough.

    Parent

    From 2011 (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:08:52 AM EST
    Excellent, thanks. (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 01:36:33 PM EST
    I only have time to look at one co on the article you linked to, so I chose Pepco, as it was the most egregious co in the article, the "worst of the worst," and while it had no profits and therefore had was no fed income tax liability during those three years, it did pay over $1.2 billion in other taxes...

    But, ok, we're talking about fed income tax.

    First let's understand what some of the words mean

    prof·it/ˈpräfit/
    Noun:   
    A financial gain, esp. the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.
    {my bolds]

    Pepco is an energy distribution co and, over the 3 three years the article analyzes, Pepco spent over $2 Billion on infrastructure.

    Taking one year for simplicity, the article says that Pepco Holdings made ~$300 million in pretax profits that year and then paid no fed income tax on it, while, in contrast, Pepco claimed it lost money and therefore paid no fed income taxes that year.

    Here's what happened, in a very simplified way...

    Simply put, the organization that wrote the article, Citizens for Tax Justice (CTJ), used it's own definition of "profits," and not the government-decreed definition.

    I'm too lazy to google the particulars, but it appears that congress, in an effort to promote investment in US energy infrastructure (which, presumably, improves all of our lives, creates jobs, etc.) changed the IRS rules the energy co's can use for accounting for infrastructure investment - it appears that congress approved a "speeding-up" of electric co's expensing of money they spend on improving, maintaining, expanding, etc., energy distribution infrastructure.

    So, just like you and I would rather take our entire standard personal deduction in each year on our own taxes, instead of having to spread it out and only take, say, 1/10 of it each year for 10 years, co's also want to take their deductions as soon as possible.

    So the new rules allow Pepco and other electric co's to deduct 1/2 of what they spent on infrastructure in the year they spent the money, and the other 1/2 over a number of the following years (to lazy to google the actual number, let's call it 10 years to make it simple). And, for simplicity, let's say the rule previously was that the entire infrastructure expenditure had to be expensed over 10 years, so 1/10 of the expense each of the 10 years. (It might have been longer, like 15 or 20 years, but you get the idea.)

    To make it simple, let's say Pepco spent 1 billion on infrastructure (of the 2 billion they actually spent over the 3 years) in that same year that CTJ says Pepco made ~$300 Million in profits. Under the congress-approved new rules Pepco is allowed to expense 1/2, or 500 million of the 1 billion, in that year. Under the old rules they could have expensed only 1/10, or 100 million, in that year.

    So for a very simple example, CTJ said:
    1 billion income minus 700 million spent = 300 million "profits."

    [That 700 million spent included 100 million of the infrastructure expenditure + 600 million of other expenses, as is what would have been done under the old rules.]

    What Pepco did was, naturally, use the actual rules, and used 500 million of the infrastructure expenditure in that year.

    So, 1 billion income minus 1.1 billion spent = -100 million "profits" (100 million loss).

    [That 1.1 billion spent included 500 million of the infrastructure expenditure + 600 million of other expenses, as is done under the new rules.]

    Also, understand this: Whether a co deducts a business expense, and thereby reduces it's tax bill, in one year, or spreads it out over 5 years, or 10 years, or whatever, in the end it still deducts the same amount and reduces it's cumulative taxes the same amount. All that's happening is that the timing of the deductions is changing, not the amount or cumulative result of the deductions.

    Lastly, the main question is whether electric co's should be able to speed up their deductions of infrastructure expenditures.

    Well, if you are POTUS, and you know that if Congress speeds up these deductions that co's will spend a lot more money and help the immediate economy a lot more than if they didn't have the incentive to spend the money, well, you figure out where the POTUS would stand on the issue...

    Parent

    Oh, btw, Pepco didn't get money back... (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:12:13 PM EST
    And Microsoft, my hometown welfare queen, (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:12:48 AM EST
    escapes about $50 million a year in state taxes alone, by registering companies in  other states, like Nevada, that have no business taxes. Still, MS gets million$ in subsidies from WA State taxpayers for claiming the R&D exemptions.

    Parent
    The same Microsoft (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:14:59 AM EST
    which just developed surveillance software for the U.S. government to use on its citizens (in case you didn't read Jeralyn's post on that).

    Isn't that sweet?

    Parent

    And if you really want me to bend your ear (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:19:42 AM EST
    about the subsidies Boeing -- which also paid no tax from 2008 to 2011 -- receives from WA State for taking manufacturing business to non-union South Carolina, which completely f*cked up building its portion of the Dreamliner787, I'm happy to fill you in.

    Parent
    I believe Microsoft... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 02:22:23 PM EST
    designed the Tyrannicus Snoopicus Maximus 3000 in a joint effort with NYC/NYPD, not the feds.  NYC is supposedly gonna get a 30% slice of the profits when Microsoft sells the blasted thing to other cities and countries.

    Linkage  Though I don't doubt federal money is involved.

    The merger of government and corporate power...there's a name for that I think;)

    Parent

    Do you even understand how state taxes and (none / 0) (#17)
    by coast on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 06:10:26 AM EST
    and registrations work?  I would love to only have to register my business in one state, pay one state tax, and cut down on all the additional paperwork I have to do.  However, that isn't the way it works.  If you have nexus (a presence in that state) whether it be through a personnel, inventory, or a building, you have to register in that state.  And now that states are desperate for revenues, in some you don't even have to have a physical presence.  

    Parent
    I understand full well how it works (4.50 / 2) (#19)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 11:37:57 AM EST
    Here's a little hint" Microsoft isn't registering "The Microsoft Corporation" in Nevada. It is registering subsidiaries. You are being wilfully obtuse on this matter. You rightwingers really bore me.

    Parent
    Let me be clearer, with example: (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by shoephone on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 12:04:00 PM EST
    Microsoft registered an office in Nevada, used just for collecting royalty payments from companies that install Windows on its PC's. Because Nevada has no business tax, MS has sheltered billions of dollars in tax-free royalty income over a period of many years. That alone has cost WA State hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenue. And MS still gets additional R&D tax breaks in its home state. Last time I looked, WA has a budget deficit, the legislture and governor have had to slash public programs and the Basic Health Plan, which serves low-income individuals and families. People in WA are suffering because of these lost revenues. MS is not the only company getting generous tax breaks, it's just one of the biggest and most well-known.

    Parent
    I could be wrong, but (none / 0) (#18)
    by sj on Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 08:47:27 AM EST
    I believe that shoephone is saying that the nexus was created, not pre-existing or inherent.

    Parent