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Thursday Open Thread

There's news besides the Budget. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • This is good to see (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:46:03 PM EST
    as Arkansas has had the most bass ackwards laws on gay rights for forever.  (From the sidebar ad):  Arkansas adoption ban reversed.

    great news (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:50:56 PM EST
    Meanwhile the DADT repeal (none / 0) (#7)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:55:07 PM EST
    is moving along as well.

    Parent
    News from Decorah Eagle Nest (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:00:29 PM EST
    All three eggs have hatched. The two oldest eaglets are less willing to stay completely under the parent in the nest and can regularly be seen poking their heads and bodies out from under the parent. Wonder how long it will be before they start wandering outside of the nest. One of the adult eagles went on a major food hunt today. Last seen were three fresh fishes and at least one fresh meat entry. Decorah Link

    saw part of the hatching yesterday (none / 0) (#54)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:25:20 PM EST
    looked like mom tried to help for a bit and then she just sat on them all again :)

    One was outside of the nest. I think it was yesterday. They need to get a baby gate!

    Parent

    Babies getting fiesty (none / 0) (#134)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:44:53 PM EST
    they want to be able to see what's outside all the time now. They are no longer content with coming out only for snacks.

    Parent
    I've been gone all day (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:59:29 PM EST
    Just got a cell call from husband while I was on my way home.  He called to say that he will not be home until late.  He just got out of a small unit meeting about how they will survive the shutdown.  He had a small break time before he headed into a much larger battalion meeting about how they will survive this.

    He is laughing because the civilian employee who wants this to happen, he just found out that he truly is in a pile that is called nonessential.  My husband teaches a couple of courses and three civilian instructors teach a couple of other classes under him.  He has been told that during the shutdown he will be teaching all the course load of four instructors.  We are tough people too, we will survive this and make it fun doing it too....but not all soldier families are like us.  My husband said you can't believe the looks on the some of the active soldier faces around him right now as they are grasping that they will be bringing a sleeping bag to work and living there.  My husband says that the tea party has just destroyed any active duty Republican party support they ever had in the military.  PEOPLE ARE PISSED!

    He also said that he predicts that Democrats will take this opportunity to stand for something truly meaningful for the whole nation.....and 100% phuck this up :)  He said that soldiers seeing the tea partiers on television all pumped to get this shut down on are disgusted.  I'm still just observing....I will cart hot meals onto post though for people working 16 hours but I can do that and still observe.

    And it is going to be illegal for civilian employess that are classified as nonessential to do any kind of work whatsoever.  It will be illegal for them to telecommute or work from home.

    Bravo for your family & for your attitude (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:47:58 PM EST
    My memory of 1995 is that the goof-ball civilian will be learning a lot in the coming days. Again, I ask people "Why do you think that Newt Gingrich was pushed out of the Speakership and hid for so long?" The ripple effect in the large (and small) ponds may not be fun to watch. 'Sounds like your husband gets it.

    Parent
    Did I read this right? (none / 0) (#99)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:17:17 PM EST
    civilian employee who wants this to happen, he just found out that he truly is in a pile that is called nonessential.  

    My interpretation is that said "civilian employee" is the RW/TP you described who has been crowing in glee about shutting down the government.  And who has now discovered that his paycheck will not be arriving exactly as expected?  Because he is dependent on the government?

    Parent

    Yes, that's the guy (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:25:08 PM EST
    And active duty soldiers won't be getting their paychecks on time, but they will eventually get them.  They will technically be owed.   I don't think Mr. Tea Party will be owed anything though like the active duty will be.  If you are a nonessential civilian it is illegal for you to work in any way during the shutdown, so you aren't putting in any hours and there will be no paycheck owed to you during the shutdown :)  And whatever they do owe him right now, that will probably be late :)

    Parent
    There is absolutely no reason for (none / 0) (#126)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:28:34 PM EST
    active duty not to be paid in full and on time even if the govt shut down occurs.   The choice is at the discretion of the WH.  

    Research what happened with milpay with Clinton and Reagan.

    Parent

    Well I'm not sobbing (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:35:12 PM EST
    My plan....margaritas

    Parent
    Enjoy the margaritas as Mr. MT's (none / 0) (#162)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:36:11 PM EST
    paycheck should be deposited as normal.  If not, call the WH, not the Congress.

    Parent
    We have already been told (none / 0) (#174)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:33:08 PM EST
    that how things stand right now, paychecks will not be deposited as normal.  Our son just came home with his 9 weeks grades and we pay for grades.  He came home with 8 As and you get $10 for an A.  His dad asked him if he can owe him until we know how this will pan out.

    I'm good with money though.  There isn't any reason for us to have to live paycheck to paycheck these days unless we are simply mindless consumers.  I don't need to call the White House about this either, this goes directly on the shoulders of the Republican party and all the coo coo nutcases that entails these days.  Not kidding, my husband walked in the door late tonight and Bachmann was on the tube and he says, hey look, there's Michelle I'm crazy as hell Bachmann.  He's an Independent.  I know it bothers you that the Republican party is flat out crazy now and it is impossible to not see that, but just because something bothers you that doesn't change the facts.

    Parent

    Have also heard the reports that (none / 0) (#192)
    by BTAL on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 07:18:16 AM EST
    milpay will be delayed.  The point I am making is that it does not need to be that way.  The military were paid in full and on time during the 1995 shutdown.   The decision to do that comes from the Executive branch, not congress, regardless of ones opinion of their sanity.

    Parent
    Any authority for this? (none / 0) (#194)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:05:16 AM EST
    That the decision to pay/not pay the military sits with the POTUS?

    Parent
    It doesn't answer your question (none / 0) (#195)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:27:26 AM EST
    But here's the latest from WaPo:

    I am a member of the military. Will I get paid?

    A shutdown would also affect pay for members of the military, said senior government officials familiar with the planning. If the current funding expires on Friday, in the middle of the military's two-week pay period, the Defense Department would distribute paychecks for the first week, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly. In an effort to avoid such disruption, House Republicans introduced legislation that would pay troops if a deal isn't reached. Congressional aides couldn't say whether such a bill would pass either chamber before Friday.



    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#197)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:43:02 AM EST
    It does seem somewhat up in the air at the moment.  I'm just curious about BTAL's assertion that it's all at the discretion of the WH.  If that were actually true, I see no upside (and a huge downside) for Obama not paying the troops.

    What's also interesting is that the House Repubs shot down two Democratic attempts to pass a clean military funding bill, and they've even sat on one of their own bills in committee that would provide funding.

    Parent

    I'm not an employment lawyer (none / 0) (#199)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:51:49 AM EST
    And I don't know how labor laws affect military members, but you can't just make people in this country work for no pay - the Thirteenth Amendment took care of that.  And since members of the military will still be working, it seems that they would have to get paid somehow (even if it's delayed).

    Of course, the rumors around here are that, even though during the 1995 shutdown the furloughed employees got back pay, it doesn't look likely this time.  And employees can't use things like accrued vacation time or anything, so they truly might not get paid.

    Parent

    WWBD (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:59:15 PM EST
    What Would Bush Do is my election fraud motto after Florida.

    Votes kept secret on her personal computer?  Can you imagine what the teabaggers would do if 10,000 votes were discovered in Madison for example.

    I was just kidding when not 30 minutes ago I posted that I expected some votes to show up -- and now here they are.

    Speaking of Florida . . . (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:13:08 PM EST
    A family member in Wisconsin just posted on Facebook that the latest election corruption there today is reminiscent of Florida politics.  But, she writes, if she is going to have live with Florida politics in Wisconsin, she wants the ocean view and sunshine, too!

    Parent
    If anyone want to know why I hate unions (2.00 / 2) (#51)
    by me only on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:17:49 PM EST
    here.

    whats the problem (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:20:05 PM EST
    Knoxville air traffic controller to be fired for sleeping on the job


    Parent
    He's just looking for a reason to hate unions (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:44:37 PM EST
    Apparently 40 hour work weeks, a safe working environment, earned vacation pay, sick time, and health benefits (even as corrupted as they are now) for almost all full time workers isn't a good enough reason to hate unions.

    He must hate them because the union wants to add safety measures to limit the risk of air traffic controllers falling asleep.

    At least that's my best guess.

    Parent

    seriously (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:53:30 PM EST
    the guy screwed up.  the guy is getting fired.

    how the f*ck to you get from that to "why I hate unions"

    Parent

    The union doesn't give a shit (none / 0) (#129)
    by me only on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:18:17 PM EST
    about my safety.  That is the airport that I fly into 20 times a year.

    The worker didn't just fall asleep, he made a bed out of cushions.  If the union had any respect they would be trying to get rid of the guy instead of trying to protect his job.

    Parent

    So...other than one incident in a lifetime (none / 0) (#177)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:13:20 PM EST
    ...what is your history with unions? Are you a wage or salary earner? Were you from a labor or management family?

    Important questions...because your statement indicates an animus far beyond what an isolated incident might cause.

    Parent

    The (none / 0) (#128)
    by me only on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:16:23 PM EST
    National Air Traffic Controllers Association union is representing the unnamed controller in disciplinary proceedings, spokesman Doug Church said.

    He isn't fired, he is on leave.

    An FAA spokeswoman says the controller is currently on paid administrative leave.

    He was first notified of his intended termination in writing. He is then allowed to respond to that notification before a final decision is made. That process typically lasts between 30 and 45 days.

    However, even after the final decision, the controller will be allowed to appeal that decision, which could draw out the process months longer.



    Parent
    The guy paid dues for a service... (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:30:25 PM EST
    he will be canned...relax.

    If he was a bankster he'd get a raise...'lil perspective here.

    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:29:47 AM EST
    Because, as a union member, he's entitled to a little thing called due process before he gets fired, which means he gets a chance to make a case and get it heard.

    Parent
    white house to veto HR 1363 (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:39:18 PM EST
    1 pm meeting (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:42:26 PM EST
    To those who think we shouldn't shutdown (none / 0) (#3)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:45:08 PM EST
    what's the plan?  Just agree to whatever the GOP puts on the table?

    Parent
    apparently (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:51:33 PM EST
    put our tails between our legs and scuttle home.

    Parent
    what's on the table (none / 0) (#10)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:57:46 PM EST
    is PPH and the EPA . . .

    Parent
    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:19:08 PM EST
    Sorry, this is unacceptable.

    Reid aides, however, said GOP insistence on including policy riders in the bill--in particular a measure cutting off federal funding for Planned Parenthood--is the key sticking point. Reid and Democratic aides said they also remain at odds with House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, over inclusion of a rider to block funding for the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate greenhouse gases.


    Parent
    I said yesterday (none / 0) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:21:05 PM EST
    that I didnt think they would let them get away with this and I still do not.

    Parent
    How are we still arguing (none / 0) (#18)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:21:32 PM EST
    about greenhouse gases?  WTF?  

    Although I suppose digby is right and that Boehner can be bought for a price.  

    Is there really no more clever way to do things?

    Parent

    A billion here, a billion there..... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:32:55 PM EST
    So if they let Boehner have his cuts elsewhere, what does that mean? Cutting funding for enforcement of the clean water act? I'm with digby here:

    And I resent being bullied into being happy about this. It isn't a "compromise, it's a capitulation. Democrats aren't supposed to be the party of tax cuts for the rich and spending cuts for the poor and middle class, certainly not when there is almost 9% official unepmpolyment. I honestly don't think there's any reason we had to come to this --- the Republicans don't have a God-given right to set the agenda.


    Parent
    In complete agreement (none / 0) (#23)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    blame it on whoever you want, Obama, the Senate, "the politically possible," but that the Dems have no discernible governing or political philosophy is somebody's fault.

    Parent
    This is what happens when the lines are (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:25:24 PM EST
    deliberately blurred, as they have been to such a great extent these last two+ years; these politicians are locked in a battle now that isn't so much about two sides diametrically opposed to each other as it is one side with two points of view arguing over which one of them is more right than the other.

    People may say, in the abstract, that they want their representatives to compromise, until you put the issues they care about up for compromise and then, I have to think, it doesn't look quite so appealing.

    There has been a gross failure to recognize that some things are worth taking a stand on, bringing others to your position because you believe it is the right position is the kind of leadership skill I expect from people who want my vote.  Right now, I am hard-pressed to identify too many who possess that skill, or seem interested in much more than not getting the blame for what's happening.  Coming in at the end, after so much time has gone by and so many opportunities have been lost, acting angry and indignant and pounding the podium and shaking their fists, just doesn't substitute for fighting the good fight from Day One.  And meaning it.

    It's beyond pathetic and shameful.


    Parent

    I wish people (1.00 / 1) (#56)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    would read up on the ramifications of a shit down.

    Can you imagine someone shooting at you in Iraq and then getting an email from a spouse explaining that he/she can't pay rent because both parties need to take an absolute stand and concede nothing on the budget.

    My take I think would be, paraphrasing here, "f&^%! the budget!"

    Or something to that effect.  

    Good piece by an admitted Obot but it's no less true:

    "Obama gets a historic health care law passed, the WATBs are mad because it didn't include public option, never mind that the bill damn near DIDN'T GET PASSED.  Obama gets a massive economic stimulus bill passed, the WATBs say it was too small, forgetting it was CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS who scaled it back.  Obama gets a historic financial regulation system passed, the WATBs says it's inadequate, even though congressional supporters say the bill was IMPROVED as it came closer to passage.  Obama ends combat operations in Iraq, the WATBs complain about the escalation of the war in Afghanistan, which he said he was going to do in the campaign.  Obama signs an executive order for hopsitals who accept Medicare and Medicaid to grant visitation and decision making rights to same sex couples, but the WATBs ignore it and focus all of their attention the fact that he didn't overturn DADT wtih the stroke of a pen.  Obama gets a payroll tax cut and an extension of unemployment benefits after negotiations with Republicans last December, and the WATBs complain about extending the Bush tax cuts for two years, without getting mad at CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS who chickened out and didn't vote for a plan to end the tax cuts.  And now with Sheikh Muhammad and Gitmo, I'm sure the WATBs got into a thumb sucking fit about that, without, again, getting made at CONGRESSIONAL LAWMAKERS who chickened out and didn't give him the money to close the joint down. . . . Seriously, this new generation of progressives  . . . They've got the instant gratification mindset prevalant in our society now."

    Uhhm.

    Yes.

    Parent

    where does the admitted obot (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:41:54 PM EST
    get the idea that us WATBs aren't mad at the Dems in congress too?

    Parent
    ABG can I ask you (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:53:36 PM EST
    at what point would you just say no to the Republicans and allow them to shut down the gov rather than obey their demands? Serious question.

    Parent
    yes (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:55:48 PM EST
    I second that question?

    Parent
    Answer (none / 0) (#103)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:26:42 PM EST
    Now. I think that if they will not concede anything we follow through and allow the shut down. But I think we would be foolish to assume that we won't have to concede something to get everyone back to work.

    My big fear is that we shut down, wrangle some real concessions from the GOP and then end the shut down and everyone on the right trumpets it as a success while those on the left claim that it was a complete failure because we didn't get everything we wanted.

    I am on board with a shut down given the current facts but I want our team to be pragmatic and concede where they have to and fight where they have to. If half of the room doesn't want to be adults about the whole thing, the solution isn't for the adults to act less childish. That the tea parties approach. Not ours.

    Parent

    Too funny (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:04:09 PM EST
    If half of the room doesn't want to be adults about the whole thing, the solution isn't for the adults to act less childish. That the tea parties approach. Not ours.

    From the guy who in the same thread commends (and agrees with) some guy who calls anyone voicing criticism of Obama a "Whinny A$$ T1tty Baby".

    Funniest comment of the day ...

    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:07:16 PM EST
    I am on board with a shut down given the current facts but I want our team to be pragmatic and concede where they have to and fight where they have to.

    Of course, no one has an issue with Obama conceding when he "has to".

    It's the other 99.9% of the time he caves that we criticize him ...

    Parent

    BTW thanks for answering (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:26:05 PM EST
    Just out of curiousity (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    Why would anyone give even the slightest credence to "Big Daddy Rich" - an Obot (your description) who calls anyone voicing criticism of Obama a "Whinny A$$ T1tty Baby"?  Unless, of course ...

    ... they were in the same Kindergarten class.

    Parent

    I know it's real convenient to (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:49:38 PM EST
    play the sobbing military family card, should I expose my perks to a bunch of liberals?

    First of all sometimes soldiers do go without pay, because we move around so much and the units who are responsible for processing our wages change..and those people change commanders and soldiers working there too, it is inevitable that they will eventually really screw up your pay and you will eventually yell at someone and your family will be freaking out a little bit :)

    Secondly, deployed soldiers have extra protections that other Americans can only dream about when they are stressfully job engaged.  We have the protections of the Soldiers and Sailors Leave Act.  You can't just throw a deployed soldier's family in the gutter, you can't foreclose on their house, often you can't even get a damned divorce from one if you are sick of them :)  I don't think you can repo their car either if they are deployed.  All of the spouses have been trained in this, and we keep several sets of our spouses orders to deploy around and some copies of the Soldiers and Sailors Leave Act around in case any legal difficulties crop up and we need to inform someone of all this stuff.

    We also qualify for getting a full month's wages interest free loaned to us if we put the paperwork in.  We can't get that when everything is shutdown, but we can get extra funds other people cannot quickly get as soon as things crank up again if we need them to cover anything crazy that happened.

    If we don't have any food in the house and no money, the post commander will allow whole families to eat three fairly decent meals a day at the chowhall with the soldiers until things improve for them.  If your house burns down or suffers some other act of God off post, they will extend this to you too.  The military is only as strong as its weakest link.  Soldiers don't let other soldiers or their families fail or fall.

    Parent

    Liberals support such supports MT (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:58:36 PM EST
    We just want something similar for more people.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    I was just ribbing you guys.  I just realized I called the act the wrong thing.  It is Relief Act, I think I was crossing words in my mind with the Family Leave Act :)

    When we moved to Alabama we took advantage of that one month of pay interest free loan.  I didn't even know there was such a thing.  As we were getting ready to move out though I was sighing and fretting about all the extra expense of being on the road, and the military does remimburse you in the end, but I was worried about the immediate extra financial stresses until my husband told me he had applied for this special available money and it was already deposited into our checking account.  I was so shocked.  There is nothing available like that in the civilian world.  At least not the civilian world I lived in :)

    Parent

    That is nice (none / 0) (#140)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:09:21 PM EST
    Some companies I have worked for used to give travel advances for expenses, but not anymore. Now you are expected to have a credit card with enough available credit to cover the trip, and then get reimbursed later.  And I have taken month long business trips where the bill was over $5000.   It does add a lot of extra stress to what is already a stressful time. No reason for any company or government to do that to its people. They are just trying to get that extra interest on their money.

    Parent
    Ask for a card that bills the company (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:19:26 PM EST
    and agree to justify the expenses or pay the company.

    At the height of the Internet bubble I had a bud that got stuck for about $20K when the start up he was with folded.

    I was with a different start up when I found that out. When the company wouldn't do the above I was gone in 3 weeks.


    Parent

    I had a friend in the same situation back then (none / 0) (#152)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:23:21 PM EST
    Not quite 20k, but close.  Ah, good times!

    Parent
    Good times for you and me... (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:27:11 PM EST
    but our friends took it in the shorts!

    I tried another one in 2005... our Prez died and I got to find out more about intellectual property rights than I ever wanted to know!

    After that I decided to just stay retired and do some consulting.

    Parent

    yikes (none / 0) (#57)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:30:04 PM EST
    "shut"

    Parent
    you know (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:32:44 PM EST
    it really is a little insulting to assume we do not know the ramifications of a shut down.

    Parent
    it's also insulting to act (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:39:21 PM EST
    like the "compromise" won't cause a lot of damage, just so long as O looks good for 2012.

    Parent
    digby writes better than I do (none / 0) (#114)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:50:49 PM EST
    so I will let her speak for me.

    ...what this adds up to is that last December, with a Democratic House and Senate our president agreed to extend massive tax cuts for the richest Americans and then in March, with only a Democratic Senate he agreed to massive spending cuts. I'm not really sure why I should applaud such a thing, particularly in light of the fact that every economist I respect says that this is the opposite of what any pragmatic technocratic, common sense leader would do in our current economic situation, much less a transformational progressive Democrat. I'm sorry, no clapping from me. The idea that we are supposed to accept the nonsensical idea that massive tax cuts for the rich combined with massive spending cuts to essential programs for ordinary Americans is a "victory" under those circumstances just doesn't make sense.

    I understand the politics, but it's simply not correct to say that the only possible way to govern is to slash spending, cut taxes and gush a lot of happy talk about "investments" and "winning the future" while hoping against hope that the economy improves enough (and the opposition is lame enough) to get reelected. "I understand the politics, but it's simply not correct to say that the only possible way to govern is to slash spending, cut taxes and gush a lot of happy talk about "investments" and "winning the future" while hoping against hope that the economy improves enough (and the opposition is lame enough) to get reelected." link


    Parent
    No insult intended (none / 0) (#107)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:33:23 PM EST
    I just think that we have to keep the suffering of our brothers and sisters in mind at all times. There are ramifications to the shut down that I am only now becoming aware of.

    This is going to hurt. A lot.

    I want people to keep that in mind as they demand that the dems concede nothing.

    it is easy to look back at The Deal and minimize the impact to the average Joe if a compromise hadn't been reached. It's almost an irrelevant side impact to those who rail against the deal now. But the impact of letting all tax cuts expire would have been instant and huge. This time the impacts won't be hypothetical and easily dismissed.

    Parent

    Is it going to hurt more than what is coming (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:46:22 PM EST
    via the budget and the additional concessions that have been made since?  And which is going to be lasting for a long, long time?

    It really is not easy to look back at The Deal; it actually makes my stomach hurt when I consider what happened there.  The impact of letting the tax rates expire would have been instant and huge - it would have instantly negated all the deficit talk, would have saved valuable programs that are getting slashed now for people at the lower end of the economic spectrum, would have taken a lot of energy out of the let's-fix-entitlements campaign.

    Makes me think that perhaps that was one reason the Deal was done this way.

    The Deal is not irrelevant at all, ABG; it's one of the reasons we're in this mess - how do you not get that?

    Dems have already conceded too much - why is it too much to ask that they not concede any more?  Republicans are never going to stop holding the government hostage - never.

    Parent

    How? (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:17:35 PM EST
    The Deal is not irrelevant at all, ABG; it's one of the reasons we're in this mess - how do you not get that?

    He's not interested.
    He's got an agenda.

    Parent

    Those (none / 0) (#127)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:06:17 PM EST
    That disagree have agenda lol?

    Where is my obama paycheck.

    Anyway I simply disagree about the impact of the deal on this situation.

    Parent

    Gotcha! (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by NYShooter on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:30:03 PM EST
    "He's not interested."
    "He's got an agenda."

    Not " Those," You.

    Parent

    Who demanded that the Dems concede (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:48:02 PM EST
    nothing? The negotiating did not just start this week. Dems have already conceded 30 billion dollars in cuts, a sum at least as harmful as the shutdown will be.

    Parent
    Keeping the suffering of our brother (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:11:34 PM EST
    and sisters in mind?

    Ramifications of Obama policies that cause or will cause long term suffering to our brothers and sisters.

    Tax increases for the working poor contained in Obama's overgenerous tax cuts for the rich.

    Reductions to Food Stamp Programs to offset the expense of FLOTUS $8 billion child-nutrition bill which was in addition to the 13.6 percent food-stamp reduction in the $26 billion Medicaid and education state-funding bill that President Obama signed in August, 2010.

    Home energy assistance to low-income families and community service block grants.

    Cuts to WIC program

    Cuts to Pell Grants  

    Parent

    but since you asked (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:35:22 PM EST
    do you have any idea what the ramifications would be of a shut down of the EPA?  or of Planned Parenthood?  by the way not one penny of federal money that goes to planned parenthood goes for abortions.  see the Hyde amendment.  what they do is provide health care, often primary and the only health care, for poor women.  thousands of screenings for breast cancer and cervical cancer last year.

    are you in any way concerned about that?


    Parent

    And Obama (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:40:57 PM EST
    can't afford to kick people who supported Planned Parenthood or the EPA in the balls.  

    Parent
    nor (none / 0) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:55:04 PM EST
    do I believe he would want to.

    Parent
    I am concerned about all of that (none / 0) (#138)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:08:13 PM EST
    I never said Obama should concede those issues.

    Parent
    who is that, John Cole? (none / 0) (#62)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:36:06 PM EST
    So when people are sitting in the cold because of the cuts in the budget, when services are denied, who are we to blame then?  Obama's the Commander in Chief, he should be upbraiding the GOP for not cooperating and not funding our troops.  And I imagine that's what he'll do.

    Parent
    Some idiot named ... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:53:46 PM EST
    ... "Big Daddy Rich".

    Can you guess what his cute acronym for anyone who criticizes Obama ("WATB") stands for?

    Link.

    Parent

    I know what it it, but I refuse to repeat (none / 0) (#79)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    I mean define (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:57:00 PM EST
    I of course already repeated it somewhat sarcastically earlier.

    Parent
    The troops are funded during shutdown (none / 0) (#64)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:39:18 PM EST
    They are essential national security services.

    Probably won't be able to buy a burger on base though.

    Parent

    Well there you go (none / 0) (#69)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:45:37 PM EST
    honestly I see something like a 2 to 3 week government shutdown as a win-win scenario for Obama.  I don't think the GOP can win a shutdown.

    I think a shutdown is best for Obama politically and policy-wise.  

    Parent

    I think Obama thinks so too (none / 0) (#77)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:55:31 PM EST
    as do Pelosi and Reid. I think ABG might be the only one arguing about it.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#81)
    by lilburro on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:05:02 PM EST
    and why wouldn't you?  Passing the GOP budget is not "responsible" and it lets them win.  Leave them hanging out there with their ridiculous ideology.  It seems that Reid is setting it up that way, making the Tea Party the problem.  America is not the Tea Party.  Give the Tea Party the opportunity to show their @ss, as they say.

    Parent
    TPM has some good quotes form Van Hollen (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:17:20 PM EST
    and David Kurtz thinks Boehner may not really be empowered to make a deal. Makes sense to me.

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:54:49 PM EST
    surely you've got to be jesting. Obama use the bully pulpit???? LOL.

    Parent
    Funny, you approve of this (none / 0) (#100)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:21:37 PM EST
    attitude towards the left wing of the Dems, but dint seem to approve when Obama and even Boehner to some extent are trying to buck the demands of the tea party. We are all supposed to bow down to THAT particular group of WATBs.

    Parent
    Wow...the disdain just pours out of (none / 0) (#106)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:31:36 PM EST
    "Big Daddy," doesn't it?  Imagine, having disdain for people who want what they were more or less promised for years, you know, "just as soon as" Dems got control of Congress...and when that wasn't enough, it was coming just as soon as they took back the White House.  I mean, how dare people not be more grateful for the crumbs thrown their way...tsk, tsk.

    Reminds me of those awful parents whose fallback position is, "you want something to cry about?  I'll give you something to cry about...[craaaack!]"  

    [rolls eyes]

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#108)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:36:53 PM EST
    The point is that the promises are being largely fulfilled, but are dismissed because they are not all in a perfectly liberal form.

    That's a fair criticism. Take dadt. Repeal is rolling along fairly rapidly but there are those still angry at Obama for not moving it along instantly. That's the kind of thing that makes liberals look as uncompromising as tea batters.

    And we're not.  

    Parent

    When (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:44:20 PM EST
    are you going to get it????

    It's not that things aren't perfect it's that Obama doesn't even try.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#139)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:09:19 PM EST
    Clearly Obama is not pushing back on anything at all.

    Parent
    Do you really think your attempts ... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 06:14:41 AM EST
    Clearly Obama is not pushing back on anything at all.

    ... to defend Obama through the use of absolute terms isn't completely transparent?

    'Cause it is.

    Parent

    There's (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by lentinel on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:14:34 PM EST
    nothing wrong with being uncompromising.

    Parent
    Cutting domestic services that people (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:18:53 PM EST
    need to survive to pay for tax cuts to the rich is not a case of not being "in a perfectly liberal form" as you very well know. Millions of people without jobs, people without food and people without heat are not just a slight deviation from perfect.

    This whole "perfect" meme is just another one of your tactics to rationalize Obama's policies and discount the views of others.

    Parent

    Shouting at who? (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:28:37 PM EST
    AngryBlackGuy writes:

    Can you imagine someone shooting at you in Iraq and then getting an email from a spouse explaining that he/she can't pay rent because both parties need to take an absolute stand and concede nothing on the budget.

    We have this.

    Despite the President's and the Senate Democrats' rejection of another short-term funding compromise, Speaker Boehner is putting his one-week CR, along with military funding for the rest of the year, to a vote in the House today.

    Boehner's new CR cuts $12 billion and it also funds the military through the end of the fiscal year.

    If the House passes the CR today, it's up to the Senate Dems. They can either agree and avert the "dire" shutdown for at least another week or they can be left with responsibility

    link

    And this.

    ... the House of Representatives passed a bill on Thursday that would fully fund the Defense Department for the rest of this fiscal year -- eliminating any threat of delayed military pay -- and would also keep the rest of the government funded for another week.

    But the bill, HR 1363, already has been rejected by Senate leaders because poison-pill riders have been attached to the measure that are unacceptable to many Democrats -- such as preventing the District of Columbia from spending its own money on abortions -- and because Democrats don't want to separate the Defense Department from the rest of the federal budget out of concern such a move might make it even harder to get an complete federal funding agreement.

    Link1

    It appears that the Democrats had rather take care of their pet projects instead of the military.


    Parent

    who attached the riders? (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:45:19 PM EST
    sounds more like some folks have an agenda, how would the rw/tp feel if dems stuck some poison pill agenda riders on there, like say all women are entitled to free gov funded abortions . . . . would it be the rw/tp who care more about their pet projects than the military?

    Parent
    The Repubs have mousetrapped them (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:12:54 PM EST
    It is plain that the Demos care more for their special interest groups than they do about the military.

    Of course if the Demos had passed a budget last year when they were supposed to, and when they had control of the House, Senate and Presidency they wouldn't be carrying this mark of shame.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Nice dodge . . . . (none / 0) (#151)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:22:02 PM EST
    Thanks. And it is a dodge. (2.00 / 1) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:29:44 PM EST
    But it also happens to be true.

    The Repubs mouse trapped them and they should have done the budget.

    I think it is called "out smarting yourself."


    Parent

    Oh just stop (none / 0) (#143)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:13:11 PM EST
    The military is going to get paid, even if late. Funds for PPH and the EPA program would be eliminated altogether.  that comparison is beneath you Jim.

    Parent
    Try telling that to (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:21:01 PM EST
    Krogers or the self serve gasoline pump.

    Timing is everything.

    Parent

    Hey, I agree it sucks (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:28:34 PM EST
    Maybe the tea party should give up its riders in order to support the troops.

    Parent
    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:46:03 PM EST
    They could care less.

    The House Budget Committee, chaired by Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), has told a veterans' group it is studying a plan to save $6 billion annually in VA health care costs by cancelling enrollment of any veteran who doesn't have a service-related medical condition and is not poor.

    GOP to 1.3 million vets--thanks for your service, now go get screwed.  This goes hand-in-hand with cutting funding for homeless vets.

    Parent

    I wonder who decides what is service related- (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 06:33:21 AM EST
    a death panel or a Washington bureaucrat? Either way I'm sure the Mama Grizzly signal has been lighted and she will fight Ryan.

    Short of that, if Vets want to rally WI -style, it will be clear who is on their side.

    Parent

    Uh, as you probably know (none / 0) (#201)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:56:53 AM EST
    the Veterans Administration decides. If you want to argue that they don't do a good job count me in. I have a friend who has his disability reviewed almost (it seems) yearly.

    But according to the post, this is about non-retirees and non-service connected injuries.

    Why anyone would want to support someone wanting a free handout because they served two years in Iowa is beyond me.

    Parent

    Are you talking about (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:17:17 PM EST
    retirees and/or people who have served and have a service connected injury...

    or people like me who served less than the amount of time required to retire and have no service connected injury.

    Those are two very important differences.

    The former have a claim.

    The latter do not.

    Parent

    Um, deal with what is proposed (none / 0) (#173)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:32:39 PM EST

    cancelling enrollment of any veteran who doesn't have a service-related medical condition and is not poor.



    Parent
    Then why did the post not (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:24:05 PM EST
    say this??

    The House Budget Committee, chaired by Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), has told a veterans' group it is studying a plan to save $6 billion annually in VA health care costs by cancelling enrollment of any veteran who doesn't have a service-related medical condition and is not poor.

    Maybe someone left something out to try and make a point that isn't there?

    Nah. No way. (That's sarcasm.)

    Now. Tell me why "any veteran who doesn't have a service-related medical condition and is not poor" should be receiving tax payer funded health care?

    What's next? Tax payer funded health care for aged sales reps? Taxi drivers? IT professionals?

    Parent

    What were they promised when they enlisted (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 06:24:01 AM EST
    or were drafted? Seems like reneging on an agreement to me.

    Parent
    Trust me (none / 0) (#200)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:52:52 AM EST
    You are not promised medical treatment if you don't spend enough time to retire or have a service connected injury.

    Assuming no injury, when you retire you can purchase Tricare. If you want to argue that isn't enough, count me in. But that isn't the point.

    Parent

    You should (none / 0) (#202)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 09:08:17 AM EST
    tell that to the teahadists here in GA. They're still whining that Bill Clinton made them pay a small yearly fee for medical service.

    Parent
    That should be (none / 0) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:28:13 PM EST
    Then why did the post say this as if it was a meanie?


    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 02:32:27 AM EST
    Tell me why "any veteran who doesn't have a service-related medical condition and is not poor" should be receiving tax payer funded health care?

    Because:

    1. They served their country,

    2. Regardless of their financial circumstances, we do owe them that much,

    and

    3) who gets to define "not poor"? You or me, or that guy behind that tree?

    Here you are arguing for cutting benefits to those who have served honorably, that's your way of dealing with those who served their country and came out intact and aren't living on dog food these days.

    Thanks for the knee-slapper, PPJ, and demonstrating what compassionate social liberalism looks like.

    Parent

    Sorry (1.50 / 2) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:48:43 AM EST
    But your last gasp conversion to loving the military doesn't ring true.

    Serving is an honor. People who make a career out of it or who have an injury associated with their service deserve the best we can give them.

    But otherwise, no. They signed a contract and performed to it. So did the government. They don't deserve anything other citizens do not get.

    Parent

    Hey! Here's a chance for the (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:30:42 PM EST
    Demos to prove they aren't anti-military!

    Parent
    You are mixing apples and oranges (none / 0) (#161)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:34:19 PM EST
    Today's CR did not include any riders.  $12B in spending cuts - yes.  Riders, no.

    The riders debate is the ongoing CR for the remainder of the year - AKA the shutdown negotiations.

    Parent

    IRS (none / 0) (#36)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:14:21 PM EST
    Maybe we won't have to pay our taxes since the government is closed there won't be anyone there to get the mail!

    Parent
    Glad I got my refund already (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:19:26 PM EST
    Update... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:56:57 PM EST
    to the case of the lady sentenced to jury duty for life over her outlandish juror questionaire we discussed yesterday.

    Judge backed down and clarified he believes in the First Amendment, in and out of the courtroom. His issue was lying under oath.  She is free to go but won't get her 40 bucks for "serving".  Much better your honor.

    I don't think I would have wanted (none / 0) (#11)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:59:01 PM EST
    to be on that jury :}

    Parent
    still want this guy to run? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:15:27 PM EST
    Jesse Ventura: Government Controls Weather, Caused Indonesia Tsunami

    note the link is breitbart but its audio.  his own words.

    Parent

    Got no audio... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:25:57 PM EST
    I'll check it later but I doubt it could be so batsh*t to change my mind...I'd vote for Alex Jones bro:)

    Any monkeywrench will do...step 1 is breaking the crooked two party duopoly, matters little who breaks it.

    Parent

    how the world sees us (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 12:57:42 PM EST
    Gunman kills up to 20 children in Brazilian school shooting

    this is the money quote:


    "There is blood on the walls, blood on the chairs. There are 15 to 20 dead I think," said Mr De Macedo, who was covered in blood.

    "I've never seen anything like this. It's like something in the United States."



    And with some (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Zorba on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:00:51 PM EST
    justification, unfortunately.

    Parent
    I would say (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:02:20 PM EST
    with complete justification

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#15)
    by Zorba on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:18:07 PM EST
    And isn't it sad that this is how the world sees us?

    Parent
    way (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:21:40 PM EST
    beyond sad

    Parent
    Angry Loner w/Nukes (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:11:50 PM EST
    This, in effect, is how the world sees us.

    Parent
    Then why do so many want to come here? (none / 0) (#61)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:35:56 PM EST
    Must be a more nuanced view of the US than some think...

    Parent
    jobs. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:37:55 PM EST
    not rocket science.  

    Parent
    too bad (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:48:45 PM EST
    they have outdated information

    Parent
    A little too snarky maybe :) (none / 0) (#85)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:30:25 PM EST
    Sometimes...don't we get a bit carried away with how bad, evil we are (I know it's Lent, sj--but, there is always confession) and don't we pile on the big, bad country motif a bit much??? Really?

    Look, international travel shows us a lot. We learn a lot, grow a lot. The ability in this age to go beyond our own boundaries is...stupendous. Yet, both sets of grandparents immigrated here for a better life. They found it. Not perfect...but, good.

    A positive thing in the past year or so following the international travesty of the Bush years is how opinion, internationally, has grown so much more positive about the US with President Obama. (Ref: See last two periodic international Pew Research polls and the positive changes found.)

    Parent

    That's not snark (none / 0) (#86)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:44:08 PM EST
    that's personal experience.  

    And just a reminder:  I'm not your companion in catholicism.  

    Parent

    I am sorry for your experience (none / 0) (#121)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 06:11:12 PM EST
    Understand, tho, that many have had other experiences (even rising from humble beginnings, etc.) And--as to the religion part...I thought it might be permissible to lighten things up ...or, at least try to. (But then, I might even try humor again...when it is least expected.)

    Parent
    No doubt Christine... (none / 0) (#163)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:39:06 PM EST
    America is still dope in so many ways...with so many good hearted people.

    We've just let our pigs run wild...we've been sh*tty citizens is what it boils down to I think.  Slacking.  

    Parent

    (Jet Propulsion Labratory, ie., exactly rocket science)

    Odd that so many would chance dieing a horrible death in a blood-bath just to have nicer car.

    Must be a more nuanced view than the doom'n gloomers want to give them credit for...

    Parent

    Hey CST... (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:07:19 PM EST
    Whats up with Mayor Menino pulling a Mayor Bloomberg?  I remember when mayors were mayors and mothers were mothers...those were the days!

    And check out this legislative wizard who must want all the Happy Meals to himself or something...never mind "protect the children", this guy looks he eats children!  How 'bout this Leroy...we will mind our children's waistlines and you mind yours...I think you need more help than we do bro:)

    Paging Donald From Hawaii (none / 0) (#20)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:27:31 PM EST
    I'm listening to Sarah Vowell's new book about Hawaiian history from Cook's landing onward, "Unfamiliar Fishes".  I don't know if you are a fan of her work, but I always learn a lot and find her entertaining as well as informative, and very good at pointing out parallels and irony. This book is no exception. I was as ignorant as you can be about the Hawaiian story and am learning a lot. Fascinating story of some of the first American's progression in the islands from missionaries to oligarchs...and how the annexation with the US came about. It's enough to make someone a monarchist.

    Anyway, I recommend it and was wondering if you have seen it yet.


    before Cook? The biggest difference between the two groups of "settlers" is the weapons they used...

    Parent
    That's a good'un (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:21:39 PM EST
    Conflict isn't the same as conquest (none / 0) (#175)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:35:21 PM EST
    If we kept an eye on Wall St... (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:35:16 PM EST
    half as much as DC is watching standardized test takers, we might have markets that are only half-rigged.

    Even erasures are suspect...don't change your mind kids.  

    Two things jump out and bite me (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:53:23 PM EST
    in that article

    "We spend an inordinate amount of time testing students - 17 days a year. That's ten percent of the school year..."

    Ten percent of the school year is spent on standardized tests.  Holy crap.  I knew it was bad, but ten percent?  Then again, the rest of the time is spent teaching to the test instead of teaching subject matter and critical thinking.  So I guess really 100 percent of the year is spent on standardized tests.

    Then there was this:

    Another big part of the checks and balances is a prompt analysis of the test results. They expect to get that back by August 1.

    So four months is considered prompt?  Really?  I wouldn't think it would take them that long to bring out the jackhammers and and sledgehammers to the schools with targets on their proverbial backs.  I suppose, though, that it's early enough to interfere with student enrollment at "underperforming" schools...

    Parent

    In FL there was a huge issue with getting (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:56:59 PM EST
    scores back last year. I didn't follow it very closely because it just seemed insane. I think they had to change to a different scoring company or something.

    FL apparently cant count anything quickly or accurately. Do standardized tests have hanging chad?

    Parent

    Hear Here... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:01:18 PM EST
    see above regarding reliance on standardized tests...spot on sj.

    The emphasis on testing takes away from an emphasis on teaching...only so many days in the school year.  Teaching to the test isn't teaching...you forget the day after the test cuz its all about the test and not at all about the lesson and life.

    Parent

    The concern I read about a few weeks ago (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:43:25 PM EST
    was not with the kids cheating, but with the school officials changing the kids' answers to the right ones in order to boost scores. In D.C. they proved pretty convincingly that this happened. They did statistical analysis of erasures and changed answers. They know statistically how often kids normally change their mind and get the answer right the second time. These tests had an astronomical rate of changes to the correct answers, throwing all of the claimed gains into doubt.

    Parent
    Interesting... (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    thanks ruff.

    Lemme guess...no child left behind?

    Parent

    righto! You must not have gotten left behind! (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:49:26 PM EST
    I suppose it is conceivable that kids en masse are passing around correct answers and erasing and changing while taking the test....but I doubt it. Seems to me more likely someone else is changing them later.

    Parent
    Can't get too worked up... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:57:09 PM EST
    standardized tests are no way to measure learning or progress or intelligence...we over rely, imo...probably because its a complicated time consuming thing to measure and we hate complicated/time consuming...a/b/c/d much more our speed.

    I was a standardized test king...did I pay attention or study or do the reading or even really try?  No, more often than not...but the tests say I did.  Some are the opposite, great students who are really trying, but just don't standardized test well.  It's really not fair that I crushed such students scores on the SAT...I didn't deserve it.

    Parent

    Oh, I agree. But if we are using them to (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:17:39 PM EST
    decide which schools to close, administrators shouldn't be cheating to give their school an advantage.

    Parent
    Yeah... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:28:40 PM EST
    but this is America...honesty will get you nowhere!  Cheating, crooking, grifting, fudging, loopholing is just how we roll...get busy cheating or get busy filing for unemployment.

    Didn't you get the memo? :)

    Parent

    My friends and I took them (none / 0) (#137)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:54:07 PM EST
    'under the influence' freshman year. I made some nice border patterns with the answers. D@mn if I didn't get a high score . . .

    Parent
    Also 'merit pay' coming to a state near you (none / 0) (#27)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 01:53:09 PM EST
    OK, near me anyway. The test score stakes are going to get a lot higher for teachers.

    Parent
    Ru-roh... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:05:18 PM EST
    Merit pay...its really really really gonna be all about the test.

    I can see little Johnny raising his hand to ask a question, maybe on a tangent to the test based lesson...we've hooked Johnny, he wants to learn, here's our chance...oh but there is no time, state tests next week...gotta prep, gotta prep...test scores, test scores...no time to learn.

    Parent

    just so (none / 0) (#44)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:54:35 PM EST
    That's the reason for the erasure scandal in (none / 0) (#110)
    by caseyOR on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:45:11 PM EST
    D.C. schools. Remember Michelle Rhee? The supposed wunderkind of school reform? She was D.C. schools superintendent when those tests were administered. And, in addition to firing countless numbers of principals and teachers, she gave extra $$$$$ to principals and teachers in schools and classrooms where test schools rose.

    And guess what? Those schools that are now at the center of this cheating are the same schools Rhee rewarded so handsomely. And, yes, ruffian is correct, the erasures were teachers changing wrong answers to right answers, not students changing their minds.

    This cheating has also shown up in other districts, Atlanta comes to mind, where teachers and administrators stand to gain monetarily from high scores. This is one of the major reasons basing success on test scores is such an evil policy.

    As always in the U.S.A., it's all about the Benjamins.

    Parent

    No, now we are doing (none / 0) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:49:38 PM EST
    Obama's "Race To The Top."  Which from my understanding is "No Child Left Behind" on steroids. Required remedies for low test scores are charter schools and firing all teachers and only being allowed to rehire 50%.

    Parent
    Oh god I'd forgotten about that (none / 0) (#46)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:06:12 PM EST
    I'm just glad my son already received his public education.  I feel really sorry, almost desperate, for the kids in school now.

    It will eliminate much of the problem of new college grads being unable to find a job; fewer of our kids will be able to get IN to college, much less graduate out.  They just won't have the skills.

    So we'll have more military enlistment, and a larger labor pool in our race to lower everyone's wages.  And the robber barons party on.

    Parent

    They'll just dumb down (none / 0) (#47)
    by Zorba on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:10:36 PM EST
    the colleges, too.  At least some of them.  They need the tuition money.  If you pay, you'll play.

    Parent
    I expect you're right (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:13:58 PM EST
    Or for a brighter take... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:35:33 PM EST
    our youth could turn out like the kids today in the Middle East...hit the street and hard...win some of the gains our great-grandparents hit the streets and hard for, that we went and squandered.

    Hopefully they choose that instead of a McJob.

    Parent

    Correction (none / 0) (#84)
    by vicndabx on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:27:15 PM EST
    Race to the Top Fund; Final Rule

    Third, the public comments suggested that there was confusion about the role of charter schools in the Department's reform agenda. Some commenters concluded that by placing the charter school criterion in the school turnaround section, the Department was advancing charter schools as the chief remedy for addressing the needs of the persistently lowest-achieving schools. While the Department believes that charter schools can be strong partners in school turnaround work, it does not believe that charter schools are the only or preferred solution to turning around struggling schools. In fact, it is the Department's belief that turning around the persistently lowest-achieving schools is a core competency that every district needs to develop, and that closing bad schools and opening good ones is the job of school district leaders. Notwithstanding research showing that charter schools on average perform similarly to traditional public schools, a growing body of evidence suggests that high-quality charter schools can be powerful forces for increasing student achievement, closing achievement gaps, and spurring educational innovation. As a consequence, the selection criterion pertaining to charter schools (criterion (F)(2), proposed (D)(2)) has been shifted from the Turning Around the Lowest- Achieving Schools section to the General section, where it more appropriately reflects charter schools' broader role as a tool for school innovation and reform.

    There is a requirement to not rehire more than 50% of teachers - but this applies only when using 1 of 4 available models to fix a broken school, the Turnaround Model.  Further, this only applies to the lowest-achieving schools - not all schools w/in a given system.  Search the PDF link for 59828 (page in the federal register) for info on the models.

    None are required remedies.

    Parent

    Remedies are only required if you want (none / 0) (#98)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:11:45 PM EST
    Federal Funds. Moving to charter schools or placing school under private management falls under Restarts. Going to Merit Pay is a requirement for Transformations as noted in the example of each model.  

    Requirement for receiving Federal Race To the Top or School Improvement Grant money

    LEAs seeking funding to serve such schools must implement one of four school intervention models: turnaround model, restart model, school closure, or transformation model.

    Turnarounds. Replace the principal and rehire no more than 50 percent of the school's staff; adopt a new governance structure; provide job embedded professional development; offer staff financial and career-advancement incentives; implement a research-based, aligned instructional program; extend learning and teacher planning time; create a community-orientation; and provide operating flexibility.

    Restarts
    . Transfer control of, or close and reopen, a school under a school operator that has been selected through a rigorous review process. A restart model must enroll, within the grades it serves, any former student who wishes to attend.

    Transformations.
    Replace the principal (no requirement for staff replacement); provide jobembedded professional development; implement a rigorous teacher-evaluation and reward system; offer financial and career advancement incentives; implement comprehensive instructional reform; extend learning- and teacher-planning time; create a community-orientation; and provide operating flexibility and sustained support.

    School Closures
    . Close the school and enroll students in other, higher-achieving schools. link



    Parent
    Quotas don't work (none / 0) (#33)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:07:58 PM EST
    When you force quotas, people will do whatever is necessary to reach them. I had a friend in sales that used to write orders from companies with bad credit, knowing they'd never be shipped. But he made always made his quota!

    I agree with accountability, but there are better ways to achieve results than quota from a test score.

    Didn't the same thing happened in the Texas schools that Bush used as an example of success when he ran for president.

    Parent

    For comic relief, there is always George Allen (none / 0) (#34)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:12:07 PM EST
     via Slate:

     

    Now he is back on the campaign trail, trying to win his old Senate seat. Today, he asked a tall black man, "What position did you play?" For the second time.


    Salon, rather (none / 0) (#35)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:12:30 PM EST
    if frogs had wings (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 02:20:21 PM EST
    from the corner

    Yet without the electoral bloodbath in Dane County, Prosser would have won Wisconsin by a comfortable 53.3 percent to 46.7 percent margin. The non-Dane County Prosser vote actually exceeds the 52.3 percent Walker received statewide in November. It wasn't the state's voters rejecting Walker's agenda -- it was Dane County's government workers attempting to keep their paychecks intact.


    That's (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 03:22:12 PM EST
    pathetic but I'm not surprised.

    Let them continue to think that Walker's agenda is popular and the GOP will continue to get this treatment across the country.

    Even the stupid fundamentalist GOP here in GA might be getting the message but the elite GOP can't?

    Parent

    Waukesha "finds" 14,000 votes (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:27:02 PM EST
    giving Prosser an easy win. I'm reminded of the scene in Bond where Oddjob similarly "finds" Goldfinger's lost golfball in the rough.

    Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

    Parent

    On the county clerk's PERSONAL pc (none / 0) (#136)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:46:33 PM EST
    She is (a) incompetent or (b) corrupt, because this has happened before, but never in a race so significant or so close and never with such a huge "find."  Is there a paper trail, required in that state, on a clerk's personal pc?  And how did that county report all precincts reported two days ago, if so many were missed in this sizeable suburban city in that county?  And how, from her description of uploading the entire vote tally file from that city but forgetting to hit save, did some of the tallies get included in other races there?

    This screams of needing not just the state to step in to confiscate every file, pc, scrap of paper, etc., but for the U.S. Justice Department to do so.

    Parent

    Do some research (none / 0) (#147)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:19:54 PM EST
    Even the leader of the Dem party defended the county clerk, even as reported that the local R. party has criticized her methods in the past.

    Sorry, but there is nothing (so far) that indicates she has done anything wrong/illegal.

    Parent

    I don't know - she sounds kind of sketchy to me (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by tworivers on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:26:54 PM EST
    I still smell a rat  Just seems too pat, too convenient, that she would magically "find" all these extra votes on her personal pc.

    According to Mary Spicuzza of Wall Street Journal:

    "Clerk Kathy Nickolaus was the subject of an Ethics Board inquiry in 2002 after she bought lists of registered voters with state money."

    "Kathy Nickolaus worked for Assembly Republican Caucus when Prosser was Speaker. Caucus is controlled by speaker, so he is her former boss."

    http://twitter.com/#!/mspicuzzawsj

    Parent

    She was headed for prison with the rest (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:45:28 PM EST
    but got an immunity deal.  Then got big names to back her, without relevant experience, for the race for county clerk -- where she has screwed up over and over to the point that even the very conservative county board had her audited and has repeatedly tried to get her to use county computers for election records instead of her own pc.  And that just scratches the surface of stories coming out about her past.

    Parent
    Your research sucks (none / 0) (#181)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:43:05 PM EST
    as you think that was the leader of the Democratic Party!  And you really, really need to research this clerk's past escapades.  What, you're reading the conservative blogs to come up with this c*ap?

    Parent
    Yes, if frogs did have wings and (none / 0) (#83)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:26:03 PM EST
    Yeah (none / 0) (#87)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:46:54 PM EST
    I expected this.  I expect more of it.  Things will likely go back and forth for a while.

    Parent
    A report/comment in one of the links (none / 0) (#89)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:53:36 PM EST
    attributed to a D spokes person, all absentee ballots have been counted and accounted for.

    Parent
    i could be (none / 0) (#93)
    by sj on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:59:39 PM EST
    mistaken, but isn't a recount on the agenda because of the narrow margin?

    Parent
    From what I've read, in WI it is not (none / 0) (#94)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:01:01 PM EST
    automatic but must be requested by the losing candidate.

    Parent
    And now the new and improved vote total (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    with the amazing find of 7500 votes from nowhere today for the conservative Prosser means that the margin is too large for the state to pick up the cost of the recount.  And Kloppenburg does not have the funds to do so.  See how nicely that works when you find enough votes from nowhere -- and you're a Republican county clerk who was embroiled in a Republican scandal before but was given immunity?  So that you refuse to run the election files on official computers but use your own personal pc?

    Parent
    Not sure it was her personal PC (none / 0) (#145)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:19:11 PM EST
    but it is sure convenient. Remember ballot box 13?

    Parent
    The local media are sure (none / 0) (#183)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:46:45 PM EST
    that she still was using her own pc, as in past, and Maddow reports it, too.  Your sources?

    Parent
    Nothing in particular (none / 0) (#186)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 11:54:59 PM EST
    I would just be shocked if it were true.

    Parent
    Wouldn't that invalidate the results? (none / 0) (#148)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:20:27 PM EST
    And do (none / 0) (#96)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:06:43 PM EST
    you think that either candidate will be happy to walk away if losing by only such a small margin?

    I believe that the State funds the recount when the margin is this close.

    Parent

    He's behind again (none / 0) (#88)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:53:11 PM EST
    after corrections made in other areas.   Looks like you're the one counting chickens.

    Parent
    Links? n/t (none / 0) (#90)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 04:53:55 PM EST
    Canvassing (none / 0) (#95)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:03:36 PM EST
    Have you heard of it?  As the votes are verified across the state there will be many mistakes discovered that will alter the vote total back and forth.  

    The canvassing and vote changes are being well documented at Swing State; Daily Kos; Talking Points Memo etc.

    This is a long way from over as there will also be a recount requested by whichever candidate ends up a few votes short.

    Parent

    Official WI county govt sites (none / 0) (#97)
    by BTAL on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:07:07 PM EST
    Have you heard of them?  Same for on site WI newspapers/reporters. I'll trust them over DK, etc.  

    Parent
    You mean the WI (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:26:55 PM EST
    county govt sites only show votes being gained by the worm Prosser in the canvassing?  Of course Walker is in control of the State so that wouldn't surrise me. With him in charge I expect a large number of "missing" votes to pop up anytime now.

    Parent
    Have you heard of research (none / 0) (#184)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 10:50:42 PM EST
    in those local media, which have been reporting for some time, even before this election but again today, that this county clerk refuses to set up such a site or report by municipalities -- or this "error" of missing all of the votes for the second-largest city in one of the state's most populous counties might have been caught?  You know, you are repeatedly making assumptions in your comments that the county in question runs like counties you know.  Why?  Have you read the local media reports yesterday and today about how different Wisconsin's reporting system is, and how much this county deviates even from that?

    Parent
    To Ruffian: (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:27:42 PM EST
    Turns out my brother is back in Chicago area and that this he drove between FL and Georgia bike paths. But thanks for your generous offer.


    Anytime! You and yours are always (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 05:55:06 PM EST
    welcome at the kennel!

    Parent
    I'm listening to MSNBC (none / 0) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 07:32:28 PM EST
    and I apologize in advance for doing this, I must purge this though so I don't hum it to myself all night long because there's Riders on the Storm :)  Sing it Ezra

    Throw this one in too (none / 0) (#149)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:20:31 PM EST
    for us '70's kids

    Stairway to Heaven.

    Parent

    Uh-oh. Another poll. Should we pass a law (none / 0) (#165)
    by shoephone on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:47:37 PM EST
    What year is it in Mississippi? (none / 0) (#167)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:55:39 PM EST
    1860 (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 08:59:04 PM EST
    I was gonna say... (none / 0) (#169)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:03:39 PM EST
    Groundhog year, but that works.

    How you likin' Gallo and Wil?  Could it be a win-win?  I wasn't thrilled at first, thought it was too much...but Melo's been lightin' it up.  

    Parent

    The whole city... (none / 0) (#171)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 09:20:35 PM EST
    ...has fallen in love with Team Nuggets!  No more matador defense, no more standing around watching on offense.  And what a luxury to actually have some depth--especially big men.  

    Shipping Melo out East so he can concentrate on his TV career was the best thing to happen to this team.  Tell Dolan, Walsh and the rest of the boys thanks when you see them!

    As for the win/win--I'll wait and see what he does in the Play-offs before making that judgment.

    How's Amare's ankle?

    Parent

    Questionable... (none / 0) (#193)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 08:04:10 AM EST
    for tonight...as much as I'd like to hold that 6 seed and play the Heat, D'Antoni has to shut him down till the playoffs.  He's been run into the ground this year carrying the team pre-Melo...too many minutes.

    Hated to see Chandler go most of all...we are so small.  But if we can add some size and defense in the offseason, and a PG of the future, I think we're there...if Amare's knees hold out and Dolan doesn't bring Isiah back or do something equally stupid.

    Melo has shown flashes of defensive effort and (gasp!) ball movement, but only flashes.  Needs to bring that every night.  Scoring wise the dude is ridiculous as ever...30 a night minimum during the recent win streak.

    Parent

    All I can say is . . . (none / 0) (#185)
    by nycstray on Thu Apr 07, 2011 at 11:10:24 PM EST
    thank dawg for blue states!!!

    Parent
    Thanks as always for the feedback :-) (none / 0) (#203)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Apr 08, 2011 at 12:10:20 PM EST
    PPJ