Wednesday Night Open Thread

Survivor Redemption Island begins tonight, and Russell is back. American Idol is having Hollywood Week.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    I also have to plug (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:51:13 PM EST
    Mr Sunshine, Matthew Perry's new show. It is better than average, and also has that goddess come to earth, Allison Janney, who is great.

    I'm killing time with it (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 09:34:41 PM EST
    I can't wait for the Borgias to start, and Mildred Pierce starts around the same time too.  There isn't much on cable right now though and that is my favorite tube venue.  Now that we like Damages I would like to see season three, but Netflix doesn't have it yet and I don't really want to have to buy it.  I don't know if and when Netflix will ever have it available now that it has been sold.  When I check for it sometimes though I read the comment section under the description and the explantion that it isn't available yet it is really funny.  All sorts of people throwing one hell of a temper tantrum and threatening Netflix if it doesn't cough up Season 3 of Damages right damn now :)

    It is only available for pre-order on Amazon (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:04:39 PM EST
    right now. Looks like it is not released yet. Don't storm the Netflix offices yet! It is really good- don't blame you for being impatient.

    I'm looking forward to The Borgias to, and Mildred Pierce. That should be fun.

    Have you been watching Shameless? I like that one too. I'm more impressed with William H Macy all the time.


    I didn't think I would like Shameless (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:12:01 PM EST
    but I do.  It cracks me up.  Joan Cusack's character I think is my favorite so far.  Her sexual appetites really freak my husband out when he watches it with me.  I gets really uncomfortable and needs to go fetch something in the kitchen....funny as heck :)

    Loving the Shameless... (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:17:20 AM EST
    Rules are made to be broken...and the Gallaghers get by by breaking rules.  Obviously a plot right up my alley:)

    The car thief with a heart o' gold boyfriend using a reefer bribe to save the budding sociopath kid from expulsion?  Classic!

    Though Frank really pissed me off with that parent/teacher stunt...that was f*ckin' cold.


    Alas, a signature move though (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:37:13 AM EST
    for a very alcoholic parent.  One of my grandfather's wasn't far off :)  He did work though, he was a mason.  And when he wasn't working he was drunk, and his paychecks always up and disappeared too.  They screw up so much though that every move when not drunk or getting drunk is some scenario of desperate self preservation and they don't understand why all the rest of us are heartbroken.

    As far as alcoholic fathers go... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:44:35 AM EST
    I really hit a home run...yeah, there were bad times...watching your dad shake like a leaf till he spiked his morning tea is not pleasant. The tension at times was thick.

    But the old man always functioned...always held a job, we were always fed, clothed, & housed before his bar got any, and he was able to get on the wagon for 10 years to see us all to adulthood.  For a man who was born to drink like I was born to smoke, that must have been an extremely difficult sacrifice of self to make for his family.  

    But he never did go to a parentteacher conference...my moms wouldn't let him, that was her end:)  


    I thought I wouldn't like Shameless (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:48:13 AM EST
    Because it would cause me to remember that pain.  But it's okay.  There are some funny things about dealing with someone you love who is severely alcoholic.  It isn't all scars, just mostly scars :)

    Thats exactly why I figured... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:04:17 AM EST
    I would like it...the laugh out loud times of a non-traditional upbringing...if nothing else it kept things interesting right Trace?  And what doesn't kill ya makes you stronger.

    Shameless (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:23:50 AM EST
    is Leave it to Beaver for the 21st century.

    everyone can relate to someone in that show.


    It does make you resourceful (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:56:39 PM EST
    and durable. My mom was the oldest, but her mom was there....just often feeling lost and depressed and little checked out too. I hate Leave it Beaver though.  Nothing messes with your head more than thinking that that family really exists and then looking at your own family in that light :)

    Interesting.... (none / 0) (#12)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:10:46 PM EST
    Amazon will let you pay to stream the episodes from season 3, but the DVDs aren't avaialble for sale yet.  New business model?

    Probably something to do with (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:15:37 PM EST
    the selling of the series the way it went down.  It seemed sort of strange.  We did not become interested in it until the sale had already occurred.  But when we started watching it on Netflix we couldn't understand why anyone considered cancelling the series when they did...and then someone with a good eye saved it.  But of course they saved it with the intention of getting a good return on that investment I'm sure.

    Ed Schultz is great this week (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 09:48:38 PM EST
    and absolutely terrific tonight.  Loved the clip from the archives of Ted Kennedy, showing the Dems how they should be taking to the floor and tearing up the airwaves.  Instead:  No comment.

    And tomorrow night's show will be one to watch, as Ed takes it to the Heartland.  The crowds already are huge in Madison and multiplying by the day.  And on a Thursday night?  No class the next day?  Brilliant.  This show is going to grow, and MSNBC probably will be moving Ed to Olbermann's old slot.

    I keep thinking about Cream City (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 10:30:55 PM EST
    who warned everyone on TL last fall about the probability of a Governor Walker and what it could/would mean. She was concerned not only about his conservative bent...but, as I recall, about his almost renegade, bombastic conservative bent. That appears to be exactly what we are seeing now: A governor itching for a fight with unions, teachers, and progress in general. At this point, we have to engage to avoid a similar conflagration in other states with budget problems. Schultz is where we should all be...in tone, if not location.

    I'd bet my bottom dollar... (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:58:49 PM EST
    Cream City is on the street right now giving the Gov. a piece of her mind.

    Give 'em hell CC!  And we miss ya:)


    Wonderfully well-put comment (none / 0) (#17)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:47:37 PM EST
    with almost a slogan at the end!

    The guy is beyond renegade.  He's bananas -- and the state Dems and the national Dems are useless.

    The reporting on this being the first battlefield but far from the last really ought to be getting everyone to the front lines, in tone if not in location, as you say.  Illinois teachers know it and are up there trying to help.  When they get back, we had better take a page from Wisconsin's crazy Sensenbrenner and build a wall between Wisconsin and Illinois.

    But that won't work.  Wherever you are:  You're next.  The Kochs and Club for Growth have you in their sights, too.


    NYT front page, below the fold (none / 0) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:31:33 AM EST
    article today, (Feb 17).  Disappointing coverage, with a presentation that seemed favorable to the governor's budget dilemma, and  gave short-schrift to protestor's concerns, including the governor's tax breaks to corporations, as Ed Schultz discussed.

    Digby headline: "On Wisconsin" (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:48:18 AM EST
    sometimes flowers grow (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:59:34 AM EST
    around the sh!thouse

    Tea Party clashes with GOP establishment over defense

    The tension between the Republican establishment and the Tea Party insurgents erupted on the House floor for the first time Wednesday when 110 GOP representatives -- mostly freshmen and some longtime conservative gadflies -- broke from their leadership and most of their caucus in order to kill a defense contract. The vote highlighted an establishment-versus-Tea Party split that was glaring during the campaign season, and brought to the fore the uncomfortable question of defense spending. The amendment, killing the contract for a backup engine for the F-35 fighter, passed 233-198 Wednesday, but 130 of the 240 voting Republicans opposed the cut, including House Speaker John Boehner and Majority Leader Eric Cantor. This puts the GOP majority and its leadership at odds with Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who doesn't want the backup engine, and former President George W. Bush, who also tried to kill it.

    The SEC isn't always normal (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:09:42 PM EST
    and in a nod to MT, she's right that the state of Alabama has some issues when a 62 year old Crimson Tide fan will poison 130 year old oak trees because he doesn't like Auburn.

    story here

    lost lambs (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:22:18 PM EST
    "Democratic State Senators who protested the budget repair bill by leaving the state have been found. The lawmakers are in the Best Western Clock Tower Resort in Rockford Illinois."

    Very funny. RR news says 25,000 (none / 0) (#136)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:37:58 PM EST
    protestors at capitol.  

    The action in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#138)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:56:47 PM EST
    today and the past few days makes me smile, laugh, and have a new spurt of optimism. Assuming that Walker, that epitome of a rightwing governor, wins the short-term battle in a day or two...even with that probability...the issue has been joined in the heartland of original progressivism. That the AFL-CIO and the public employees and teachers marshalled their significant forces in such a picturesque, captivating way around the Madison capitol will be a template. So will the wonderfully roguish, inventive Democrat representatives who took off & left to preclude a vote for a time be a revised model.

    At minimum, the attention garnered (and spreading rapidly) by innovative, lively supporters of workers shows focused purpose. Direct and even good-natured action like this has a power that keeps growing.


    Whoops...of course add "ic" to Democrat (none / 0) (#139)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    as an adjective. (I might not correct my other misspellings, etc., but the only adjective is "Democratic")

    Lawrence of Arabia on TCM soon (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:40:30 PM EST
    I know that's andgardenm's favorite.

    I'm killing time till 'justified'.

    Survivor has at least one epic scale nut job, aside from Russell. Should be a good season.

    It really chaps my hide... (none / 0) (#2)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:43:14 PM EST
    ...that Justified doesn't come on here until 11p--way past my bedtime.

    11? That's terrible (none / 0) (#4)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:49:14 PM EST
    I can barely stay awake until 10. I record it in case I fall asleep at commercials.

    I don't have a DVR... (none / 0) (#6)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:53:34 PM EST
    ...or whatever they call that fancy TV recordin' box.  And FX runs the replays at really strange hours--like 1am on Saturdays.  

    I was hoping that OnDemand would have it, but they don't.  


    man the DVR (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:39:12 AM EST
    is just the greatest thing ever.  not only can you record stuff incredibly easily but the rewinding live TV thing is a modern miracle.

    you are a sports guy so you would love it for that I like effects so when I see one I can just rewind look at it until I am bored and then continue watching.


    I'm a bit of a ludite as well. (none / 0) (#140)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 07:10:02 PM EST
    I just recently replaced my VCR with a Bluray.  And no fancy flat screen until the old Sony goes belly up.  

    thanks for reminding me (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:55:11 PM EST
    I just set my DVR. I would have forgotten, and it's a really good show.

    I am so happy to see it back (none / 0) (#31)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:14:17 AM EST
    Seems to be taking a bit of a 'Winter's Bone' turn with the older lady moonshine/drug ring leader and the young girl.

    Still great dialogue and multi-layered storytelling.


    Agree (none / 0) (#3)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 08:44:59 PM EST
    Plus, I've always been a Boston Rob fan.

    Yup, it's one of my faves (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 11:43:13 PM EST
    No good to watch it on TV, though. I regret that I've never been able to see it in 70mm.

    My friend says the new bio of Lawrence (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:01:53 AM EST
    is very good.  Book.

    Groovin' tunes on a humpnight (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 09:18:14 PM EST
    Lyre Le Temps, my latest discovery, with "Go Down." (LINK)

    Also, 8p.m. PST on ESPN2, you can catch the back of my head occasionally during the Univ. of San Diego/St. Mary's basketball game (I'll be wearing a gray hoodie and a bald spot).  SDSU is playing across town, so I figure about ten people will be at the USD game, down from the usual 20. My Toreros are awful this year.  Get me an upset, boys.

    Go Gaels! n/t (none / 0) (#9)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 16, 2011 at 09:36:48 PM EST
    Sorry, bro, but miracles happen (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:35:54 AM EST
    84k websites shut down over incorrect allegations (none / 0) (#21)
    by Bored MPA on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:15:53 AM EST
    I'm a little surprised that incorrectly implying 84k websites hosted child p*rn didn't make the news.  And also that the DHS was involved.  And even more that effectively posting "accused of distributing p*rn" on the actual defendants' property is legal (those were only 10 sites, the rest were a mistake).  I hope that there are legal repercussions cause that's a lot of innocent people...

    DHS mistakenly shuts down 84k websites for up to 3 days

    So they're (none / 0) (#34)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:29:40 AM EST
    giving themselves high-fives for the ten websites that (they say) actually contained child porn, but nary a word of apology (much less an offer to compensate them for any lost business or loss of reputation) to the 84,000 websites they mistakenly shut down and essentially accused of hosting child porn?  They shut them all down with no court order, no trial, no conviction, nada.  Look, I hate child pornographers as much as anyone does, but this seems like a vast over-reach on the part of the government.  Tell me again what country we live in?

    Into Eternity (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 08:57:56 AM EST
    INTO ETERNITY is a mind-bending film that explores the utter impossibility of storing nuclear waste for 100,000 years, the time estimated by scientists to render it safe. It is, on the one hand, a documentary about the Onkalo storage facility presently under construction in Finland, and on the other hand, a startlingly beautiful work of art and an urgent provocation that ponders the question of who - or what - will remain on this earth when that time frame has elapsed.

    `Thurgood' Trailer, Starring Laurence Fishburne (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:04:07 AM EST
    HBO Films is on a roll today. Earlier today we showed you the trailer for Cinema Verite, due out in April. Now we have a 42-second trailer for Thurgood, starring Laurence Fishburne. Thurgood will air February 24th on HBO in honor of Black History Month

    they are indeed on a roll.  Sunset Limited which is circulating now is riveting.


    Holiday Bandit... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:25:33 AM EST
    goes 7 for 7 and gives the NYPD & FBI the slip yet again.  Authorities fear John Dillenger cult hero status.


    I for one think this is a fabulous idea (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:29:49 AM EST
    for Stossel and his followers.

    John Stossel
    Is Seasteading the Future?

    Here's a novel idea: Escape the suffocating chains of intrusive government by starting your own country!

    That's Patri Friedman's idea. He comes from an impressive line of libertarian thinkers. Milton Friedman, the Nobel-prize-winning free-market economist, was his grandfather. His father is David Friedman, author of the libertarian classic "The Machinery of Freedom." Milton Friedman advocated severely limited government. David Friedman thinks we need no government at all. And now Patri believes he has an effective solution to bad government: communities on the ocean surface, or seasteading.

    particularly considering the increased risk of super hurricanes caused by the global climate change that they do not "believe in"

    I'm sure there will be no need for (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:35:49 AM EST
    a government among a community that is nearly totally dependent on allocating resources from the outside world.

    of course what would actually happen (4.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:40:57 AM EST
    is that we would have to rescue them and then feed and house them when the stupid thing sinks.

    Bon Voyage freefolk! (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:34:12 AM EST
    or, to abbreviate: (none / 0) (#76)
    by sj on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:06:10 PM EST
    "Bon Voyage free..k"

    Don't think the thought... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:42:01 AM EST
    hasn't crossed my mind...assuming there is no island to claim, and planting a sovereign flag on my lawn won't fly:)

    Paging Captain Casey, Matey Jeff...we might have less legal issues if we call ourselves seasteaders instead of pirates.


    no way (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 09:46:16 AM EST
    I saw what happened to Kevin Kostner

    Read "The House at Sugar Beach," (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:17:45 PM EST
    a memoir by Liberian-born NYT journalist Helene Cooper.

    Youtube off-color comedy... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:02:11 AM EST
    leads to felony charges and a possible 20 years.

    I haven't looked for the video, who needs the FBI at the door eh, but how bad could it be to lead to a freakin' felony case?  I can't imagine...me thinks some people need to lighten up.

    c'mon kdog (none / 0) (#44)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:04:42 AM EST
    1st graders??

    21-year-old Evan Emory faces a 20-year felony after altering a performance inside a Beechnau Elementary classroom to include graphic material.

    "In my mind,  this decision by this young man stepped way over the line and it was not a prank it was a crime," said Tague.

    habing said that (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:05:44 AM EST
    20 years does seem a tad harsh.

    I would actually love to know (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:06:44 AM EST
    more about this.

    for example his attorney says he was trying to be creative.  I would like to judge that myself.


    I'm aware... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:09:59 AM EST
    definitely not smart...not wanting to assume the liabilty of seeing the "pronographic" video, if its even available, I can't judge the humor.

    The kids saw nothing obscene ya know...it's a comedic editing job we're talking about.  A felony?

    Whats next...ya can't tell the "child molester and a little boy are walking in the woods" joke?


    How would you feel if a video of (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:43:42 PM EST
    your niece/nephew's school program was altered in this way?

    I'd probably be pissed... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:20:08 PM EST
    unless the humor/sarcasm was of very high quality, which I kinda doubt.

    But I'd fell terrible if the guy did any time over it...removal of the video from youtube and an apology would likely suffice as amends for me...I don't need no pound of flesh over a papercut.


    high quality? (none / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:21:26 PM EST
    they were 1st graders.  

    Yuck. If this fellow were really creative (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:22:47 PM EST
    he wouldn't start with this "sample."

    No I mean... (none / 0) (#87)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:25:09 PM EST
    whatever the accused did via editing to make a children's sing-a-long into something comedic deemed "obscene".

    The curiosity is kinda killing me right now...what joke could be this terrible?


    Another day (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:28:43 AM EST
    Another middle-eastern "ally" of ours is in the  news.  This time, Bahrain.  And the cops are not playing nice.


    Some highlights:

    "When protesters held a funeral march for the first man killed by police, the authorities here then opened fire on the mourners, killing another person."

    Gotta love our "allies"

    posted about this the other day (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:39:48 AM EST
    the home of the 5th fleet.  and a very expensive recent upgrade.  best coverage:



    you know what thought (none / 0) (#55)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:10:47 PM EST
    crossed my mind about this all?


    I could actually see W. being on the right side of all this.  To be clear by W. - I don't mean Cheney.  I mean the post-Iraq-fallout W. who occasionally made up his own mind about things.

    At the very least he would feel pressure from the "democracy" argument he used to gather support for his middle-east agenda.

    Although he might also have stuck his nose in on the pro-democracy side - in a bad way.


    well (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:14:52 PM EST
    to give the devil his due he did talk about democracy in the region quite a lot.  the thing is I suspect never EVER thought it would actually happen.
    or at least not anything beyond the democracy in egypt under Mubarak.

    I think for the neocons this may be a classic example of be careful what you wish for.


    and then (none / 0) (#58)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:19:41 PM EST
    they conveniently forget that they ever wished for it and start screaming about scary muslims.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but the levels of hypocracy are astronomical.  And I can't think of a single "journalist" who has called them out on it.


    Rachel (none / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:22:25 PM EST

    in fairness (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:26:01 PM EST
    I only read news, I don't watch it.  So I wouldn't really know.

    That being said, Rachel isn't gonna cut it.  Good for her, but she's preaching to the choir.


    she has a primetime show (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:29:04 PM EST
    on a national news station.  IMO that makes her matter.  and her choir is getting bigger.  and people are starting to notice.

    but if you are waiting for CNN or the NYTimes I hope you brought a cot.


    Always the risk Bush's military would (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:45:01 PM EST
    invade to make Bahrain safe for democracy.

    But but but... (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:42:49 AM EST
    we really need a home away from home for the 5th fleet.  And that freedom, liberty, justice stuff is soooo unpredictable.

    winning the future or "wtf" (none / 0) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 10:50:35 AM EST
    as Sara says

    State history standards get 'D'

    AUSTIN -- A conservative education think tank has severely criticized Texas' new social studies curriculum standards as a "politicized distortion of history ... offering misrepresentations at every turn."

    In a report being released today, the Thomas B. Fordham Institute gives the Texas social studies curriculum standards a "D" while accusing "the conservative majority" of using the curriculum "to promote its political priorities, molding the telling of the past to justify its current views and aims

    HA (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:09:34 PM EST
    Santorum Talks About Longtime Google Problem

    and we know what that is.

    I love me some Dan Savage

    Broad interpretation of the Fourth Amendment (none / 0) (#57)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:15:29 PM EST
    jb, I can't wait to read comments re (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:46:31 PM EST
    your posting this!

    Too broad (none / 0) (#71)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:58:59 PM EST
    I'm not always on the side of the cops - I believe if they do things illegally or badly, they should be punished (just like everyone else -or more so, as they have a higher duty).  But I'm not an apologist for criminals or want to make excuses for everyone who commits a crime (daddy didn't love them, someone was mean to them, they're an addict so they had to rob a bank) either.  I'm also not a paranoid that the big bad cops and prosecutors are always corrupt and out to get people. Are they in some cases?  Yes, and they should be dealt with, but I don't see this happening in a vast majority of cases.

    But the interesting thing about this case is that it's really the judge that is the center of the story.  The cops did all the paperwork and asked for a warrant (it can't ever hurt to ask).  The judge granted it.

    I just don't see this holding up on appeal.


    No disagreement from me. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    I think part of the problem is (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:07:26 PM EST
    That while you are "also not a paranoid that the big bad cops and prosecutors are always corrupt and out to get people" you do tend to assume the worst about everyone else (protesters come to mind...).  Or at least, you seem much more likely to defend the cop/prosecuter vs. the average Joe/Jane.

    Which fine, there are certainly plenty of people that have a bias one way or the other as well.  But you can't deny that there is some bias.  I bet kdog wouldn't deny his.

    I won't either.  I am more likely to expect the worst from authority than the average Joe.  Of course I think I'm right to expect that, but I still realize it's bias :)


    Sure, we all have biases (none / 0) (#79)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:17:21 PM EST
    But yes, I think the cops and prosecutors get it right a vast majority of the time.

    Everytime we have one of these threads, (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:20:01 PM EST
    wouldn't it be interesting if each commenter revealed the extent of the commentators contact w/law enforcement and the context?

    Yes (none / 0) (#88)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:28:32 PM EST
    I've had a very close family member spend a year in jail for embezzlement.  Did I like it? No.  did I want this person to get probation?  Yes.  But you know what?  This person, whom I, nor anyone else who knew him, would not have guessed in a million years that he was capable of doing something like this.  The excuse was that he had a gambling problem (lottery tickets).  He never denied it, but the fact is, he still stole a lot of money.

    I've also been pulled over twice - once for speeding (I was), but the cop just gave me a warning (no crying involved). The other time, the cop was completely wrong - pulled me over for allegedly crossing in front of an emergency vehicle (a firetruck that was stopped at the corner of intersection, where several cars ahead of me legally turned at the light.  He pulled me over, was swearing at me, and then apparently realized he was wrong and let me go.  I should have gotten his badge number and reported him, but it wasn't worth it).

    I've also worked as a court clerk to a judge - saw lots of people come through who had lots of excuses.  Some were valid mitigating factors in why they did what they did.  Some were just lame excuses.

    That's my history.


    Interesting. Was there a "Guilty with an (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:40:16 PM EST
    explanation" option re the court cases?  Always fascinating to hear/read those.

    My "contacts" w/law enforcement.  Warning ticket for illegal U-turn.  I think the warning stemmed from my 10-yr. old daughter batting her eyelashes, plus Halloween, and she was in soccer gear.  Contacts as alleged victim:  stuff stolen from garage, daughter X two.  No complaints.  

    Former DDA, then defended law enforcement officers and agencies against tort and civil rights violation allegations in civil lawsuits.  


    I forgot (none / 0) (#95)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:48:17 PM EST
    Police came when my truck was broken into.  No resoultion in that case.

    No "Guilty with explanation" - that was for sentencing determination.


    I've been pulled over for speeding... (none / 0) (#94)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:47:25 PM EST
    Never had any real problems though.  I've only gotten tickets maybe 1/4 of the time.

    On a professional level I sometimes have to deal with them, and it's usually fine, although they can be a real pain in the @ss at times.

    When my apt was broken into we eventually went to the cops, and they dusted our place for prints, which weren't found.  Then the cop tried to get my sister and I to move into his rental apt in another part of town.  And we discussed the various benefits of good whiskey.

    Oh, and one time my bf was arrested in front of me for about 4-5 hours.  But that's another story (not a domestic dispute).  The cops were.... relatively reasonable about it, although needless to say it was not the best experience.  In the grand scheme of things he probably had it coming, and the charges were dropped.


    Probably so (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:36:13 PM EST
    But here we are talking about the exceptional cases.  Not all cases.  If you try to apply the same standards to a subset that you do to a superset you'll get skewed results.

    Which is why most of the rest of us here think you're an apologist on law and order issues.  :)


    As Jeralyn reminds us, this is a criminal (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:41:14 PM EST
    defense blog.

    Yup (none / 0) (#93)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:46:30 PM EST
    But it doesn't mean that anyone who reads my comments thinks that I speak for the blog.

    Like I said (none / 0) (#92)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:45:17 PM EST
    I believe people make choices.  If those choices (in regular cases - not exceptional cases) are to be criminals, then they should also live with the consequences.  I don't know of a rash of felony crimes that take place because people accidentally commit them. I've said it before - you may have a very good reason for doing what you did, but it doesn't necessarily excuse your behavior.

    It's funny you think I'm an apologist on law and order issues. I think it's the opposite -  most people around here are apologists and excuse makers for people who commit crimes (unless they don't agree with them politically).  :)


    I think there are also cases (none / 0) (#96)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:57:25 PM EST
    where you assume someone is doing something wrong without actually knowing if they are.

    Again, the protesters come to mind.

    And... I think you care a lot more about victimless crime, and people obeying the law because it's "the law".

    Personally, if someone breaks the law but no one gets hurt (and there was never an intention or likelihood of harm), I could really care less.


    Please give your definition of "victimless (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:00:53 PM EST

    most drug (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:13:34 PM EST

    no one (none / 0) (#100)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:19:48 PM EST
    who is not directly involved gets hurt

    Things like possesion.  Or trying to get into your own house when it has already been determined that you live there :)

    Or even assisted suicide, since I don't think that fits my definition of "hurt".

    Shoot, up until Lawrence vs. Texas, sodomy was illegal in Texas.  DADT comes to mind, although people weren't sent to prison - it still relates.  

    Living in a country you weren't born in.


    When I first interviewed for DA's office (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:21:53 PM EST
    many years ago, panel asked if I could prosecute "victimless crimes."  My blank look got this response:  prostitution.

    Unless of course (none / 0) (#132)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:50:38 PM EST
    There's a spouse or signficant other.

    adultery (none / 0) (#133)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:53:45 PM EST
    is the issue there, not the method.

    I didn't "assume" (none / 0) (#103)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:51:12 PM EST
    the protestors were doing anything wrong. I DID ask if anyone knew who assaulted the CBS reporter.  My take this entire time is that I am waiting to make a judgment as to how this will turn out.  Yes, they overthrew Murbark, but what next? Come see me in 6 months after the elections and if it's more stable.

    Possession - I think some drugs should be legal, but yes, I think that since they are currently illegal, and if you choose to partake of them (there's that darn word again!), then you shouldn't be shocked or surprised when you get busted - you know going in that they are illegal.  I believe that's called "treating people like adults" - making them responsible for the choices they make.  I don't believe in coddling adults or infantilizing them by making excuses for them when they make deliberately bad choices.  That's a completely different argument than caring about "people obeying the law because it's "the law"." (Although I think argument that has merit too - if you don't like the laws, work to change them, ignore them and take your chances, or go where the laws are more in line with your worldview).  I mean - is there a reason you don't go around (I assume) robbing banks (and not using a weapon)? N one really gets hurt and the insurance company will reimburse the bank.

    Why don't you (I presume) drive drunk?  I mean, most times, no one gets hurt, right? Why should we care if you drive drunk?


    I did think of that (none / 0) (#104)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:06:24 PM EST
    which is why I specified "intent or possibility" - there is a decent possibility that if you drive drunk someone would get hurt.

    I never said anything about being shocked or surprised.  I am talking about right vs. wrong.  So no, I'm not surprised by it, but I still think it's wrong.

    If you rob a bank, someone gets hurt.  Whether it's the insurance company who has to pay for it or not - they count as "someone".


    Without intent (none / 0) (#105)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:12:43 PM EST
    a person can't usually be convicted of a crime (unless of course it's a case where "they should have known").

    And what is "right"?  I cited to studies yesterday that showed some of the societal costs that the use of illegal drugs does.  So is it really "victimless"?  I don't know.


    i meant intent to harm (none / 0) (#107)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:27:02 PM EST
    not intent to break the law

    someone might have intended to be carrying pot, but that's not the same as intending to hurt someone.

    Societal costs come in all shapes and sizes.  There are societal costs to driving.  Or societal costs to doing just about any kind of business.  That's pretty weak tea, IMO.  I would also counter that there are significant societal costs to keeping all drugs illegal.  Things like incentive for violence, and spending huge amounts of tax payer dollars to lock people up, breaking up families, etc...

    What about DADT?  The law of the land was to kick people out of their job if they admitted they were gay.  Does that mean we should have been okay with people losing their job for being honest?

    There are some actual bad laws.


    Yes there are (none / 0) (#108)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:31:04 PM EST
    Which is why we should work to change them.  

    But just because you disagree with a law does not give you the right to break it and expect no consequences.

    Again - it's all about choices and treating people like adults.


    you can expect consequences (none / 0) (#109)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:36:04 PM EST
    and still disagree with them or criticize them and acknowledge they are wrong.

    Civil disobedience is also a choice.  One that has occasionally even been effective at changing laws.

    Just because you expect consequences doesn't mean you cheer them.  "Work to change them" also means criticizing/highlighting the consequences you consider wrong.


    Absolutely (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:37:22 PM EST
    But you can't use it as an excuse to say "You can't fine me / put me in jail" either.

    can't is different (none / 0) (#114)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:52:28 PM EST
    from shouldn't

    I don't see anyone arguing that they "can't"


    Well, CST, you tried (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by sj on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:23:59 PM EST
    You got pretty far into making your case, too, until, apparently, the only way to derail it was to throw in the Queen of England.  Lordy...

    Well, ok (none / 0) (#116)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:57:31 PM EST
    You can argue you're the Queen of England too.  Use any excuse you want.  

    now I'm just confused... (none / 0) (#130)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:40:43 PM EST
    I really don't understand what this comment means.

    Excuse for what?  Criticizing what I consider a wrong decision?


    You can argue anything you want (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:50:13 PM EST
    You can argue that "I don't like the law so you shouldn't punish me for breaking it."  You can also argue that "I'm the Queen of England so you shouldn't punish me for breaking the law."

    It's the same argument - silly. Again, just because you don't like the law doesn't give you the right not to follow it and not get the consequences.


    arguing in circles (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    now it's not okay to criticize something you think is wrong?  Because I swear you just said it was.

    Also - there is a huge difference between - "I don't like it" and "I think it's wrong"

    I don't like mushrooms, but I don't have a problem with someone else eating them.  I think locking someone up for something they do in private, that doesn't hurt anyone - is wrong.  I think kicking someone out of their job for being gay is wrong.

    As in, we shouldn't do it, and I will criticize those decisions loudly, because I want them to change.


    Not that anyone asked me to (none / 0) (#137)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 05:56:37 PM EST
    jump into this, but it seems like there are two things going on here: (1) there are two different languages being spoken and (2) they are being spoken past each other.

    The whole issue of should one obey the law is, it seems to me, a moral one, not a legal one.  But having made one's choice, it can then become a decision that has a legal consequence, if one gets caught.  And consequences, as we know, are not always in our ability to control.

    Being faced with the consequences of one's choice, then other factors come into play: are you a person of means, can you afford quality legal representation, are you a person of color, do you have a history, are you educated and articulate?

    But from a purely legal standpoint, whether you did whatever it was you are accused of, you aren't guilty until a judge or a jury declares you to be - and people with good lawyers can work the system in ways that poor people, especially people of color, cannot and come away having paid less of a price - if any - than someone who doesn't.  Is it fair for one person to sit in jail for months pending trial and another to be released back into the community until trial?

    So, where I think jb is on this is - and she can correct me if I've guessed wrong - if you are a poor person of color, who doesn't have the means to deal effectively with the consequences of breaking the law, maybe it is imperative for that person not to break the law, even if one thinks the laws are stupid.  And maybe that's true.

    What I do know is, once a person makes the decision, it's out of his or her hands.

    But what I also know is, unless I am sitting on a jury, charged with determining someone's guilt or innocence and having the benefit of as much of the evidence as the law allows me to be privy to, it really isn't up to me to decide or judge someone guilty.

    And I also know that we have so many problems in this country that contribute to the crime rate: poverty, hunger, lack of education, drug use, physical and mental abuse, lack of health care, and in the grand scheme of things we don't do nearly enough to address these issues, preferring, I guess to spend money on cops and courts.  And even then, there's always a fight about spending money.

    Some people are just naturally more inclined to take an authoritarian position - just as some are more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused - which, I have to add, is what "innocent until proven guilty" means.

    Anyway, sorry if this rambled on...


    Knew or should have know is (none / 0) (#127)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    often sufficient. Depends on the statute.  Also, sometimes criminal negligence is sufficient, also depending on the statute.  

    a religious movie I can get excited about (none / 0) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:48:30 PM EST
    Darren Aronofsky Says `Noah' Will Highlight What's Been "Censored Out of Our Religious Upbringing"

    Darren Aronofosky (Black Swan, Requiem for a Dream) has never been one for subtlety. He's all about grand spectacle and fervent theatrics -- things for which his long-in-the-works passion project Noah is perfectly suited. Aronofsky has been obsessed with the biblical figure ever since he won a school poetry competition for a poem he wrote about the end of the world as seen through the eyes of Noah. He was 13 years old.

    [He was the] first environmentalist. [The] first person to plant vineyards, drink wine and get drunk. I was stunned going back and realizing how dirty some of those stories are. They're not PG in any way. They're all about sleeping with your brother's sister who gives you a child who you don't know. That kind of stuff got censored out of our religious upbringing.

    Didn't you go to Christian Sunday School (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:51:39 PM EST
    and learn about David and Bathsheba?

    no (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:52:20 PM EST
    I am a pagan baby

    and even if I had (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:53:25 PM EST
    I think I would prefer Aronofoskys version

    The Sunday School leaflets were (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 12:58:55 PM EST
    illustrated in a the style of Sallman's "Head of Christ."  Really boring.

    my original response was going to be (none / 0) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:00:22 PM EST
    dont they do some kind of show in Vegas with lions or something?

    I think Noah (none / 0) (#74)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:01:20 PM EST
    would make a great movie.  Especially by this guy.

    I finally saw Black Swan last night.  I liked it a lot.

    I do feel like original movies are getting more popular these days.  The last three movies I saw in the theater (besides Harry Potter which is a special situation) were Inception, True Grit, and Black Swan.

    Not a single one of them was predictable or felt like I'd seen it 100 times before.  I can't remember the last time I felt that way about 3 "popular-ish" movies in one year.  Even Avatar which is a more typical hollywood blockbuster was significantly better than your average hollywood blockbuster.


    in the great depression (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:03:44 PM EST
    and now.  movies are big.  escapism is a wonderful thing.

    on that subject I just saw (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:09:53 PM EST
    an amazing movie that got virtually no press and probably didnt make much money.  in fact I just went to bos office mojo to see how much it made and its not even listed.

    wow.  I thought they listed everything.
    anyway the movie is


    When the government gets wind of a plot to destroy America involving a trio of nuclear weapons, locations unknown, it's up to a seasoned interrogator (Samuel L. Jackson) and an FBI agent (Carrie-Anne Moss) to find out exactly where they are. A suspected terrorist who's already in custody is their only chance for a timely answer. But what will it take to get him to talk? Michael Sheen, Brandon Routh and Martin Donovan co-star.

    it is an incredible movie about who we really are and what we are really capable of.  
    one thing it most certainly is not is escapism.  it is the opposite.  hence.  bomb.


    Spy Magazine (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:17:55 PM EST
    google books now has every issue online.

    Smart. Funny. Fearless."It's pretty safe to say that Spy was the most influential magazine of the 1980s. It might have remade New York's cultural landscape; it definitely changed the whole tone of magazine journalism. It was cruel, brilliant, beautifully written and perfectly designed, and feared by all. There's no magazine I know of that's so continually referenced, held up as a benchmark, and whose demise is so lamented" --Dave Eggers. "It's a piece of garbage" --Donald Trump.

    "It's a piece of garbage" (none / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:16:25 PM EST
    Donald Trump, Spy's Dr. Moriarty, who had been predicting its demise since 1988, could finally gloat. At times it seemed as though the whole thing had been an elaborate plot just to annoy the short-fingered vulgarian.

    A little too focused (none / 0) (#110)
    by brodie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:36:43 PM EST
    on poking fun at celebrities, which is fine and there's a place for that.  But I don't recall them breaking much ground journalistically outside of that narrow terrain.

    I miss Ramparts, the great 1960s independent investigative journal that really went after the big boys on big items like the VN War and illegal govt spying on US citizens and related govt atrocities.  Totally fearless.

    But, alas, I suspect groups like the CIA arranged to get their revenge against the magazine -- as in infiltrate and destroy from within.


    how old are you? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:50:15 PM EST
    just curious what age you were (none / 0) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:50:41 PM EST
    in spys heyday

    I was an adult (none / 0) (#117)
    by brodie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:58:33 PM EST
    during Spy's run (not sure exactly what years would constitute its "heyday").  But occasional reader only, not a subscriber.

    Funny magazine, clever at times.  But I don't recall much after the amusing pix and captions, and the Separated at Birth section.

    But since they're now online with the old issues, if you know of a good meaty piece they did outside of celebritydom, I'd be happy to give it a look.


    good rundown (none / 0) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    I love this (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:10:50 PM EST
    "Never curb your tendency to aphorize."

    good advise for commenters as well.


    I was living in Manhattan (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 03:54:02 PM EST
    for pretty much all of the 80s.  that may be why I remember it differently.  it was very much a NY magazine even tho it had lots of national readers.

    and I remember it being the greatest thing ever.

    but I do remember Ramparts fondly.


    Well NY-centric it was. (none / 0) (#123)
    by brodie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:18:36 PM EST
    Again, I am responding here re the magazine whose demise I most lament angle and offered my pick.  But they both operated from almost opposite ends of the magazine world spectrum, one serious minded the other not, and probably would have complemented each other, rather than competed with each other, with similar readership had they published in the same era.

    how its done (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 01:23:51 PM EST
    Gotta Love it (none / 0) (#129)
    by sj on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:36:59 PM EST
    I remember when the Texas Dems did it in 2003.

    the world may end in 2012 (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:29:30 PM EST
    simply because they it cant take any more Donald and decide to off itself:

    Donald Trump: If I Were Elected President, I Would Tax Other Countries

    Jon Stewart (none / 0) (#102)
    by CST on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 02:42:51 PM EST
    Donald Trump sure knows how to send a company into bankrupcy :)

    While it's still early for polling (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:00:01 PM EST
    This should give the WH some pause:

    The latest round of polling from Public Policy Polling, attempting to figure out what voters today might do in 2012, has bad news for the roster of presumed GOP candidates.

    That is, if you consider it to be "bad news" if you're trailing Obama by three to five points in a nationwide head-to-head in February 2011, while there are still months and months or potentially bad economic headwinds to live through between now and Election Day. Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney find themselves in that position, which, I assure you, they are not sweating. Other potential candidates fare less well, ranging from Newt Gingrich, who trails by seven points, to Ron Paul, who trails by fourteen.

    But one opponent is doing great against Obama: Imaginary Generic Moderate Republican Candidate!

    While none of those candidates would win against Obama in the poll, respondents preferred a "moderate Republican candidate" to the President by a 46% to 44% split. Even a generic Republican candidate tied Obama at 47%. That suggests that, while voters prefer Obama to the current GOP challengers, it's not necessarily because they're keen vote for Obama: rather, it seems that they haven't found a Republican they like better.

    that must be why (none / 0) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:27:06 PM EST
    not one serious candidate has declared on the GOP side.  and the serious one like Christie are running as fast as they can.

    great short film on vimeo (none / 0) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:17:54 PM EST
    The Third Letter

    15 minutes.
    the people who made it are coming here to show and talk about it next week.

    NASCAR dads (none / 0) (#125)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 17, 2011 at 04:21:54 PM EST
    Rep. Betty McCollum (D-MN) alerted Capitol Police Thursday after a threatening fax arrived at her office attacking her proposal to strip Pentagon sponsorship from NASCAR teams.

    McCollum's staff tells TPM this is the first time they've alerted the police about a threat made against here office since the health care debate.

    here it is. uploaded to thumbsnap.  WARNING
    its awful.