Friday Night Open Thread: A Numbers Game

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Aug 27, 2010 at 10:32:52 PM EST
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Here's some of the news I missed while at work today:

6,000 pounds of cocaine seized in Florida is worth $80 million. In Sacramento, 475 pounds of meth seized last week was worth $100 million -- until the Sheriff decided it was 600 pounds and worth $200 million. In India, authorities seized a lab and found 16 pounds of meth authorities value at RS 13 crore, around $3 million. (Rs 16 Cr = USD 4 million). Do they just pull these numbers out of a hat?

The India meme: The drugs were made in India, by companies using Iranian and Chinese chemists, and headed to cartels in Central and South America who would then send them to the U.S. [More...]

In other news: Who's the muscle behind the Zetas alleged murder of migrants in Mexico? Is it the work of the former Guatemalan elite troops, known as Kaibiles, who partnered with the Zetas several years ago? (More here, here and here.)

What else? The ATF and FBI are squabbling over turf again.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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Friday Night Open Thread: A Numbers Game | 22 comments (22 topical)

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Meth is worth more than cocaine? (none / 0) (#1)
by Romberry on Fri Aug 27, 2010 at 10:54:20 PM EST

Wow. Never would have guessed that meth would be worth more than coke. Then again, I almost always figure that the dollar values assigned by the government to these seizures are entirely bogus. That goes back to the early 80's when a friend of mine was caught "manufacturing" marijuana after a neighbor turned him in for a single seedling that was growing inadvertently in a flower bed. The police showed up in force, dug up what was about a six or eight inch seedling, hit him with the felony manufacturing charge (later reduced to misdemeanor possession) and said that the seedling had a "street value" north of 2 grand.

Drug War A Bust (none / 0) (#2)
by squeaky on Fri Aug 27, 2010 at 11:06:29 PM EST

The only way to win and end the war is to decriminalize drug use and regulate distribution.

A question for the lawyers here. (none / 0) (#3)
by caseyOR on Fri Aug 27, 2010 at 11:22:31 PM EST

This is not a request for legal advice. Just some wondering on my part.

On June 4, a second grade boy, Kyron Horman, disappeared from his school in Portland. The last known person to see him was his step-mother who drove him to school that day so that she could see his science fair project. The step-mother, Teri Horman, says she last saw Kyron in the hall outside his classroom. Kyron never made it into that classroom.

Because of some miscommunication between Teri and the teacher, the school thought it was an excused absence, so they did not call his parents. Kyron's parents went to meet him at the bus stop that afternoon, and when he wasn't there they called the school, called his friends, called the police and started searching. Massive searches were conducted for days.

Although Teri, the step-mom, has not been charged with anything, she is under a cloud of suspicion. The reasons for this include failing two polygraphs, lying to the sheriff's investigators about where she was the day Kyron disappeared, various other discrepancies in her story. Other things about her, not necessarily related to Kyron missing, have come out and they put Teri in a very unsympathetic light. Things like the claim of a landscaper that Teri tried to hire him to kill her husband, Kaine. And the revelation that after Kyron vanished Teri started some sort of sexual relationship with a guy who went to high school with her husband. All we know for sure about that is that she was sexting him.

So, Kaine filed for divorce. And Teri moved into her parents' house. She finally hired a criminal defense attorney. The guy she hired is one of the best criminal defense lawyers in the state. Since then she has not spoken to the press or the sheriff.

So, my question is if Teri did take part in Kyron's disappearance, if he is dead and she knows where the body is, or if someone has him and she knows who that is and where Kyron is being held, what will her attorney advise her to do or say?

Are there any circumstances under which a lawyer would advise her to tell the sheriff where Kyron or his body is right now? This would clearly be incriminating information. How does a lawyer handle this, especially if the boy is still alive and Teri knows it?

American Bar Association: (none / 0) (#5)
by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 12:55:35 AM EST

DR 4-101 Preservation of Confidences and Secrets of a Client.10
(A) "Confidence" refers to information protected by the attorney-client privilege under applicable law, and "secret" refers to other information gained in the professional relationship that the client has requested be held inviolate or the disclosure of which would be embarrassing or would be likely to be detrimental to the client.

(B) Except when permitted under DR 4-101(C), a lawyer shall not knowingly:

(1) Reveal a confidence or secret of his client.11

(2) Use a confidence or secret of his client to the disadvantage of the client.

(3) Use a confidence or secret of his client for the advantage of himself12 or of a third person,13 unless the client consents after full disclosure.

(1) Confidences or secrets with the consent of the client or clients affected, but only after a full disclosure to them.14

(2) Confidences or secrets when permitted under Disciplinary Rules or required by law or court order.15

(3) The intention of his client to commit a crime16 and the information necessary to prevent the crime.17

(4) Confidences or secrets necessary to establish or collect his fee18 or to defend himself or his employees or associates against an accusation of wrongful conduct.19

(D) A lawyer shall exercise reasonable care to prevent his employees, associates, and others whose services are utilized by him from disclosing or using confidences or secrets of a client, except that a lawyer may reveal the information allowed by DR 4-101(C) through an employee.

[Model Rules Comparison]


Here's the Oregon rule: (none / 0) (#6)
by oculus on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:00:10 AM EST

DR 4101
Preservation of Confidences and Secrets of a Client
(A) "Confidence" refers to information protected by the attorneyclient
privilege under applicable law, and
"secret" refers to other information gained in a current or former professional relationship that the client has
requested be held inviolate or the disclosure of which would be embarrassing or would be likely to be
detrimental to the client.
(B) Except when permitted under DR 4101(
C), a lawyer shall not knowingly:
(1) Reveal a confidence or secret of the lawyer's client.
(2) Use a confidence or secret of the lawyer's client to the disadvantage of the client.
(3) Use a confidence or secret of the lawyer's client for the advantage of the lawyer or of a third person,
unless the client consents after full disclosure.
(C) A lawyer may reveal:
(1) Confidences or secrets with the consent of the client or clients affected, but only after full disclosure to
the client or clients.
(2) Confidences or secrets when permitted by a Disciplinary Rule or required by law or court order or
secrets which the lawyer reasonably believes need to be revealed to effectively represent the client.
(3) The intention of the lawyer's client to commit a crime and the information necessary to prevent the
crime.(4) Confidences or secrets necessary to establish a claim or defense on behalf of a lawyer in a controversy
between the lawyer and the client, to establish a defense to a criminal charge or civil claim against the
lawyer based upon conduct in which the client was involved, or to respond to allegations concerning the
lawyer's representation of the client.
(5) The following information in discussions preliminary to the sale of a law practice under DR 2111
with
respect to each client potentially subject to the transfer: the client's identity; the identities of any adverse
parties; the nature and extent of the legal services involved; and fee and payment information. A potential
purchasing lawyer shall have the same responsibilities as the selling lawyer to preserve confidences and
secrets of such clients whether or not the sale of the practice closes or the client ultimately consents to
representation by the purchasing lawyer. {Underline added.)


Your response, Oculus, (none / 0) (#8)
by NYShooter on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:55:36 AM EST

greatly appreciated, and while accurate & scholarly, I'm sure, is a little labyrinthine for a po' farm boy like me to fully comprehend.
So, if I may, let me simplify his question, as I understand it.

As a hypothetical: I go to a drug dealer's house and purchase a nickel bag of weed. As I'm leaving I witness, or hear, the dealer beating & battering a young child in his care, maybe a son or nephew.

So, as a matter of simple conscience, I want to alert the authorities to the felony assault, yet I don't want to expose my much more minor infraction, my doobie buy.

What should I do?


: It's been a few years, ... (none / 0) (#12)
by Yman on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:34:25 AM EST

... but I think the issue boils down to whether the crime in question occurred in the past or the future. Reporting a crime committed in the past by your client would violate attorney-client privledge. Reporting a conversation to reveal a crime that your client intends to commit in the future in order to prevent the crime would not, although there are sometimes other conditions (i.e. crime involving bodily harm/death, etc.).

Having a hard time dealing with reality (none / 0) (#4)
by ruffian on Fri Aug 27, 2010 at 11:33:20 PM EST

It's Olivia de Havilland night on TCM...into The Snake Pit for me...

"... numbers out of a hat?" (none / 0) (#7)
by Mr Natural on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 01:49:29 AM EST

Please, these are professionals.

Numbers like those are pulled out of an a$$.

as are the (none / 0) (#9)
by NYShooter on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 02:09:59 AM EST

the ever greater exaggerations regarding the potencies of the current bust:

"today's seizure of marijuana by our heroic police dept confirms what has only been rumored up till now; after countless, arduous hours in our state of the art police lab it's potency has been proven to be 53,000 times stronger than the dope which was smoked when we were teenagers, just a few short years ago."


This is wild. (none / 0) (#16)
by JamesTX on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 05:13:10 AM EST

That absolutely infallible academic data source, Wikipedia, says this:

More recent research undertaken at the University of Mississippi's Potency Monitoring Project[38] has found that average THC levels in cannabis samples between 1975 and 2007 have increased from 4% in 1983 to 9.6% in 2007.

Let's underestimate the stuff from a few years ago and say it's 1%.

The new stuff is then 530% THC? Somehow this sounds like my old football coach.


: no, I guess that would be (none / 0) (#17)
by JamesTX on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 05:15:17 AM EST

53000%, right?

: one gram of this new pot (none / 0) (#18)
by JamesTX on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 05:19:01 AM EST

contains 530 grams of THC. Nice work! I bet they could use that in the space program, not to mention military applications.

nuts! (none / 0) (#11)
by cpinva on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 09:06:46 AM EST

beat me to it! lol


: lol! (none / 0) (#14)
by NYShooter on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 03:27:58 PM EST

recalling an afternoon in Laguna Beach, Ca. in the 60's, and my introduction to an entity that G*d him/her-self labled "Mexican Wacky Weed" has me laughing painfully to this day.
Some things don't get better with age...lol

twins (none / 0) (#10)
by Capt Howdy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 07:29:43 AM EST

yesterday I had the groomer make the doggie bears twins. in this video the last dog to have a close up is Daisy who now looks exactly like her brother.

in this video you can see better what she looked like before. she has hair sort of like a retriever.

they are so cute in their matching outfits!!!

the second one wouldn't (none / 0) (#13)
by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 11:50:43 AM EST

play. But wha beautiful dogs, Capt, beautiful!


: weird (none / 0) (#19)
by Capt Howdy on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 08:20:52 AM EST

works for me.
lets try again

Im getting a lot of (none / 0) (#20)
by Capt Howdy on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 09:42:53 AM EST

oh she was so pretty before.
its true she was. and it will grow back. it was also really high maintenance, easily matted etc, and it was so long it got stepped on a lot.

she still has plenty of fur and I think she likes it.


: my eyes fell on that (none / 0) (#21)
by jondee on Sun Aug 29, 2010 at 10:29:07 AM EST

last line and my first thought was that people were still going on about Paris Hilton..
Need more coffee..Nice dogs, Captain.

Well, Meth is the only way (none / 0) (#15)
by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 at 04:00:34 PM EST

the corporations are going to get 80 hour work weeks out of us for third world pay.

amusing side effect (none / 0) (#22)
by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:54:18 AM EST

of a flexible work environment.
I tought yesterday was the labor day holiday. so I stayed home.
no one missed me. no one called. no one seemed to care.

weird.

I guess I will work next monday.