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Krugman's Response To The Centrist Blogosphere's Arguments Against The Public Option

In response to "even the liberal" Ezra Klein's arguments against the public option, Paul Krugman wrote:

[W]hat is one to make of the practical, political argument from the likes of Ezra Klein, who argue that any public plan actually included in legislation probably wouldn’t make that much difference, and that reform is worth having even without such a plan?

There are three reasons to be suspicious of that argument. [. . . MORE]

The first is that I suspect that Ezra and others understate the extent to which even a public plan with limited bargaining power will help hold down overall costs. . . . Second, a public plan would probably provide the only real competition in many markets.

Third — and this is where I am getting a very bad feeling about the idea of throwing in the towel on the public option — is the politics. Remember, to make reform work we have to have an individual mandate. And everything I see says that there will be a major backlash against the idea of forcing people to buy insurance from the existing companies. That backlash was part of what got Obama the nomination! Having the public option offers a defense against that backlash.

. . . Let me add a sort of larger point: aside from the essentially circular political arguments — centrist Democrats insisting that the public option must be dropped to get the votes of centrist Democrats — the argument against the public option boils down to the fact that it’s bad because it is, horrors, a government program. And sooner or later Democrats have to take a stand against Reaganism — against the presumption that if the government does it, it’s bad.

(Emphasis supplied.) Let me add to Krugman's point that I highlighted. The public option is more than just a political safety valve to the mandate. It will be THE vehicle that can be expanded to meet this political demand. More people will want in.

As I wrote earlier, Ezra has defended incrementalism but attacks it with respect to the public option. On policy grounds there simply is no defense for Ezra's hypocrisy. Then it must be politics. My impression is Ezra does not really care about the public option (certainly his right) and does not want it to derail initiatives he considers more important.

This is a perfectly respectable position to hold - but hold it honestly. Do not hold yourself out as a public option "supporter" when you have been arguing for months that it does not matter. Truth in advertising please.

Speaking for me only

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    You know what's interesting to me (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 07:52:10 AM EST
    Obama was so vociferously against individual mandates during the primary, and now there's hardly any discussion of what seems to be a massive flip-flop on his part.

    Someone should ask him to explain himself what gets him excited about the legislation now being proposed by Congress that makes him change his mind on the mandate. The right answer is the public option.

    Krugman could have made that point (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 07:57:49 AM EST
    since he (and Ezra of course) paid close attention to the issue.

    Since I did not, never put much stock in the health care debate (btw, my not paying attention seems completely justified as NOTHING that was said then seems to have mattered one whit), I do not feel comfortable making a big deal about that.

    Parent

    It will be an important point if we (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:14:00 AM EST
    end up with a weak or non-existent public option and are forced to pay private insurers for their poor offerings.  It will end up crippling the Democratic Party in the end too - big potential trap in this area of the policy-making imo.

    Parent
    You describe a pressure (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:15:10 AM EST
    that will force expansion for the public option in the future if it is enacted. That's my point.

    Parent
    The argument that we should pass a FAIL... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:32:04 AM EST
    ... in order to create the pressure for SUCCESS has always struck me as -- though elegantly reflexive and Zen-like -- a little too good to be true.

    I mean, what additional pressure do the 10 million by 2019 from HR3200 bring, that is not already brought by the visible success of (single player) Medicare and (single payer) VA?

    But leave aside the technical arguments (See MA and ME, the state experiments on offer that implement "public option" (or "plan").

    Consider the politics:

    1. The public option proposal is framed as welfare: means test + subsidy = welfare.

    2. The proposals are likely to be partially funded by a new tax: A tax on (currently exempt) employer-based health insurance.

    3. So now we're taxing the little guy with insurance to cover the little guy without insurance; or -- as the right can and will frame it, when they run their populist campaign in 2012 -- the Dems are taxing the working stiff to pay for a welfare program.

    4. That's not going to go over well. In fact, it's obviously a recipe for tax resistance to go mainstream.

    * * *

    Finally, if the bill is a FAIL, why is it more likely that further reform will be sought? There are plenty of forces in Versailles -- the "entitlement reform" crowd -- who'd be perfectly happy to go after Medicare if that brand ends up being poisoned.

    Parent

    MassLib (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:36:01 AM EST
    this is addressing my argument.

    I think it is wrong precisely because even if the public option "fails" in lambert's terms, the ONLY governmental response is to expand it for the reasons that have been argued - it is too limited.

    SCRAPPING it will not happen.

    Conservatives  (and centrists like Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias) argue that they oppose all government programs because they never go away. That is largely correct.

    A public option will not be abolished and if it is not working that means only one thing - it will be expanded.

    Parent

    Well, the idea with Medicare back in (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:04:30 AM EST
    the 60's was that it was meant ultimately to be extended as a benefit to all Americans.  So, at this point while I see your point, I have little faith that a Public Option that serves a small portion of the population would be expanded at a reasonable enough rate to head off the problems we are going to face down the road.  My primary problem with the incrementalists is that the healthcare problem has outgrown their solutions.  Ten years ago, I would have been thrilled with the insurance regulation and limited public relief options, but now the problem is too big to be contained by these minimalist solutions.

    The other thing that worries me about incrementalism is that the ideas aren't necessarily coherent as a whole - meaning that you get some sugar soda tax; a little PO here and there; and some pre-existing condition relief - but you don't necessarily end up with a coherent system with appropriate checks and balances or a system that is navigable without falling through the cracks.

    So we'll see, but at this point I am not terribly impressed with the strategies or thinking that I've been seeing in addressing this problem in either the Executive or Congressional Branches...

    Parent

    I think we are going to have major (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:11:38 AM EST
    eruptions in the health insurance industry and I don't know there is going to be any way around those.  We can't get single payer through right now. It just won't go.  A public option can provide a source of relief if the industry implodes and may also be the safety net that keeps our medical infrastructure working semi smoothly during chaos.  It can be expanded during chaos too.  I don't like this idea of mandates much at all because the health insurance companies can borrow against the "certainty" of the income from those mandates and that just does not seem economically or morally healthy to me AT ALL.

    Parent
    A limited Public Option won't do (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:31:42 AM EST
    much more than preserve the status quo.  If that public option is contracted out for administration to private insurers, it will be the status quo and a big fat giveaway.  A robust public option open to all is really the only "compromise" solution that I can see having a chance of succeeding in creating bona fide changes in this ailing system - and our overall economy.  You see, I really view this as an economic issue much more than as a moral issue.  I think change in our healthcare system is critical to our ability to function both domestically and internationally at the levels that we enjoyed prior to the GW Bush era.

    Parent
    Why are we contracting out (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    administration to insurance companies who have already proven they can't effectively administer?  It makes no sense to me  AT ALL.  So those under public option will see doctors who get paid little for their services (meaning that they will be considered second rate patients) while the insurance industry is going to charge us this crazy rate that they claim administration costs them in order to show what they consider a profit under their profit model?

    Parent
    In some scenarios coming out of (none / 0) (#132)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:09:52 PM EST
    Congress, this is entirely possible.  You should check out dday's recommended diary on dkos now for more fun and games from Max Baucus that will really make your stomach turn.

    Parent
    A Democrat in the WH, majorities (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:27:59 PM EST
    in both houses of Congress and they are going to pass Republican legislation that they blocked when they were the minority?

    Parent
    Have you investigated Baucus' (none / 0) (#134)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:31:08 PM EST
    plan?  Looks like there is at least a whole committee full of people in the Senate who would.

    Parent
    I guess I should have left off the (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:43:03 PM EST
    question mark. I have no doubt that there would be a whole committee full of people in the Senate who would. At this point, I can even see many of the elements of Baucus' plan be in the final legislation.

    The question mark was more to express my amazement (not sure that is the correct word) that it could be a Democratic president and Congress that actually passes some of the worse Republican legislation. The Democrats may do for the Republicans what they could never do for themselves.

    Parent

    this is part of that process imo (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:14:19 AM EST
    We could be talking a centuries long (none / 0) (#89)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:17:45 AM EST
    process here though - lol - okay not "centuries" - but maybe more than a century if we keep this incremental and painfully slow pace.

    Parent
    And if it takes 20 years (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:23:09 AM EST
    Is that worse than NEVER?

    I do not see where not having a public option gets us closer to sing;e payer than having one.

    Parent

    Well, the question is if we delay until (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48:41 AM EST
    after the centennial anniversary of the begining of this debate, will we actually have the resources to put policies like these into place?  This country is currently fast losing ground and the more ground we lose, the more difficult it becomes to take on huge systemic problems like these - both politically and financially.  Just seems like a waste of time and resources to me, but that's nothing new in DC.  I have argued consisently that the failure to think about healthcare as a critical investment in our country's infrastructure has been a real problem in this debate.  Piecemeal reforms won't, in my opinion, yield the payoff that comprehensive systemic reform would.

    Parent
    you think we have 20 years? (none / 0) (#106)
    by Dadler on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:35:24 AM EST
    Really?  With two wars bankrupting us?  With our Roman Empire act as bloated as ever?  With infectious diseases spreading and gaining new immunity to drugs every day?  

    20 years?  

    You are way more optimistic that I am.

    Parent

    If this were a bill (none / 0) (#34)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:38:49 AM EST
    to expand Medicare eligibility by 10 million people, would you oppose it?

    Parent
    He objects to mandates and failure of the PO (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:41:39 AM EST
    In defense of Lambert, his objections are perfectly coherent.

    I think he is wrong but it is not some incoherent screed against "compromise" or "incrementalism."

    Parent

    Expanding Medicare to ten million (none / 0) (#43)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:44:05 AM EST
     is a fantastic idea.

    Parent
    The pressure that will force expansion (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:28:42 AM EST
    of the public option will only exist if the Democrats remain in power after the program is fully implemented. Republicans IMO would be more than wiling to scrap the whole deal and use the fail as a club to beat the Democrats over the head with.

    From what I see, the Dems are going out of their way to seriously tick off a whole lot of people. They already have Seniors worried about what they are going to do with Medicare. Now it is in the news that in the Baucus plan 60-year-olds could be charged five times as much for a policy as 20-year-olds. Whether it winds up in the plan or not, the idea that the Dems are conducting an assault on older people is already out there. A lot of boomers out there and added to those who are already Seniors that is a very large voting block. While the Dems did not win the majority of the older vote, IIRC they got something in the neighborhood of 45% of their vote. How much more of that vote can they afford to lose?

    Parent

    Of course Hillary's voters did pay attention... (3.50 / 2) (#4)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:04:14 AM EST
    It was their number one issue, and many did not see Obama as having the passion, the policy position, or the experience to pass something that would actually work, so from my stand point, it mattered a lot.

    That said, Hillary should have ran on Medicare for All, or voluntary Medicare(and I have always maintained this), because it probably lost her more voters than it won her, and clearly Congress left to it's own devices can totally screw the debate.

    Parent

    Hillary ain't Presdeint (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:09:21 AM EST
    So your hypothetical will go untested.

    Let's talk about what it means now in the real world, not in the alternate universe where Hillary is President.

    Parent

    Duh. I was responding to your comment... (none / 0) (#6)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:11:01 AM EST
    Since I did not, never put much stock in the health care debate (btw, my not paying attention seems completely justified as NOTHING that was said then seems to have mattered one whit)...

    Parent
    And whether you were right to put stock in it (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:14:16 AM EST
    is a hypothetical question IN THAt Hillary is not President.

    Capiche?

    Parent

    it's true (none / 0) (#28)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:35:35 AM EST
    the only thing we know for certain is that obama has flip flopped on major planks of his election campaign.

    so that is the topic we should stick to.

    as for hillary the ONLY thing we should keep in mind is that while it can never be proven what she would have done, hypothesizing about her not keeping her promises is equally silly.

    of course i don't see anyone doing that.  i still felt it needed to be pointed out just in case it does ever come up.


    Parent

    Since I did not hypothesize (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:37:19 AM EST
    any such thing, may I suggest you keep your admonitions to yourself.

    Parent
    i wasn't admonishing you (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:39:15 AM EST
    i was being .... proactive.


    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:42:26 AM EST
    Your proactiveness was appropriate. In a comment, I did so speculate. Should not have.

    Parent
    everyone will (none / 0) (#65)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:03:18 AM EST
    i'm sure the "hillary would be even worse" meme is still a work in progress.

    Parent
    Actually I did (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:37:51 AM EST
    My apolgies to you. I should never have brought it up.

    Parent
    There is a faction here (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:11:03 AM EST
    that says a public option including 10 million people isn't nearly enough and should be shot down, ignoring this entirely valid point:

    The public option is more than just a political safety valve to the mandate. It will be THE vehicle that can be expanded to meet this political demand. More people will want in.

    It's wrong to assume that we pass a public option and then are somehow forced to sit around twiddling our thumbs until 2019 or 2029 or whenever.  Once it's in existence, and people see that the world hasn't ended, every single election can be about expanding eligibility.  Sure, I'd love for it to be universal or close to universal from the outset, but 10 million people is nothing to sneeze at!

    My theory in support is precisely (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:13:25 AM EST
    that political pressure will be to expand it.

    I criticize Ezra PRECISELY because of his hypocritical support for "incrementalism" when it invbolves everything else but a public option.

    His post on the subject was simply dishonest.  

    Parent

    As a student of politics, you also (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:36:24 AM EST
    have to consider that there will be just as much political pressure to kill the public component as there will be to expand it.  Given the lag time between passage and implementation, I would be very surprised if there were not significant negative changes in the whole thing before it even gets underway.

    And if this is all about political pressure, shouldn't it have driven this whole issue right to a single-payer plan?  I mean, there is no love for private insurance companies - they're either holding us hostage, or they're pulling up the drawbridge to the castle to keep people out, and periodically throwing people off the parapets into the moat to watch them drown, so the fact that these so-called reform efforts are designed to protect them, to guarantee their continued ability to choke the life out of people, tells me that if there is political pressure being brought to bear, it will in all likelihood accrue to the benefit of the health industry, not to the people.

    Political pressure is a knife that cuts both ways, is it not?  I guess I am just surprised that you, who always seem to see things so clearly in the pure political sense, are choosing to not factor that into this equation.

    Parent

    The pressure to kill it (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:48:14 AM EST
    will go away to the same place that opposition to Bush's prescription drug bill went. Remember that bill, the one where Tom DeLay had to threaten people just so it would pass by one vote?  It was bad policy, but can you name me anyone who campaigned on repealing it?

    No one is going to successfully run for office on a platform of taking away people's health coverage. Politics doesn't work like that.

    Parent

    God you are right Steve (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:01:13 AM EST
    And when it first came out I told myself there was no way the seniors were going to stand for this.  And then they did, and they are one of the strongest voter/constituent voices that exist at this time.  I think a lot of them were still getting by with reimporting some drugs and the Bush administration stopped enforcing nonreimporting, but the Obama administration has been enforcing it I'm told because Pharma was screaming.

    Parent
    In the situation (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by cal1942 on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:53:38 AM EST
    that many elderly found themselves, Part D was helpful albeit bad policy in many ways.

    My mother-in-law had to spend over $700 every month on drugs.  Part D lowered her costs considerably.  Even when she went into the donut hole, her overall costs were still significantly lower.

    It was the actual effect on individual people that saved Part D.  The bad policy parts we're all familiar with didn't really matter to people whose monthly costs were lowered.

    The arguments against boiled down to fiscal arguments.  I've always felt that the least effective political arguments are fiscal arguments.  The cry that we're passing the bill on to our grandchildren is, IMO, totally ineffective as a big vote getter.

    In today's debate Obama made a huge mistake, IMO, whenever he got up and talked about costs.  The only costs that people are interested in are the costs that come out of their pockets TODAY.  Coverage is the real big issue and not just for people without coverage. I'd wager that most people with coverage are related to people without coverage or fear the loss of their own coverage.

    IMO the pitch should have been made based on need for universal coverage, principle, morals, etc.

    The Republicans would have whined about cost but I believe that their argument would have been no more effective than it was in the decades when we had a consensus center and Republicans ran  campaigns that amounted to nothing more than 'me too.' During that whole era they whined about costs. During that whole era Republicans had control of both Congress and the White House for all of two years.

    Parent

    So part D did actually help people (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:25:08 AM EST
    and that saved it.  These are realities I'm not familiar with other than the dreaded donut hole :)  Unlike Ezra I can acknowledge that my youthful notions are not always correct :)

    Parent
    The big giveaway (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:36:06 PM EST
    was that the govt ensured Pharma that Medicare would not negotiate prescription drug prices (just as Obama re-affirmed with the health insurance debacle).....it was a big giveaway to Pharma -- give people a prescription drug benefit, while ensuring that the giant powerful Medicare gave up their logical gigantic negotiating power with pharmaceutical companies --- but yes, people got some benefit out of it, the bone or scraps left over.  It was probably better policy than the current one under discussion, which isn't saying much.  At least it doesn't penalize people for opting out.

    If Medicare could negotiate drug prices, maybe that money could be used...for health care or something...but no, instead we pay to make sure that corrupt people get re-elected.

    Parent

    Okay, Steve, but now that you (none / 0) (#71)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:07:25 AM EST
    brought it up, let's talk triggers - because that's the bill that came with one that has never been pulled, in spite of steadily rising drug costs, thus ensuring that the pharmaceutical industry has never had to worry about having to bargain their drug prices with Medicare.

    If reform legislation ends up with a trigger that would bring a public option into being only if the insurance companies don't play fair (I don't know how they can say that with a straight face), there will never be any kind of public component.

    Parent

    I am very dubious (5.00 / 4) (#98)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:27:53 AM EST
    of the trigger concept.  I think the notion of a meaningful trigger is possible in theory but very unlikely in practice, sort of like spotting a pink elephant.  If we had the political capital to pass a really good trigger, we'd have the capital to just pass a public option and be done with it.

    Parent
    Yes, no guarantees the political pressures can cut (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:47:09 AM EST
    both ways: Recall the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act of 1988, that expanded Medicare coverage to include such things as outpatient prescriptions, caps on out-of-pocket expenses, extended hospital  and skilled nursing home stays. However, the surtax caused an uproar (the imagery of one of Dan Rostenkowski's elderly constituents clinging in protest to the hood ornament of his automobile as he sped away from a town hall meeting was quite vivid).  The bill was followed by the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act of 1989.

    Parent
    Oh, and the 1989 Medicare Act, (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:56:39 AM EST
    repealed the 1988 Act.

    Parent
    Seee my response to Lambert (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:38:32 AM EST
    I disagree with your assertion.

    Parent
    It's also ironic... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:46:51 AM EST
    ... that the people who were thrown under the bus when single payer was taken off the table are going to be expected to bring the pressure for the next round of so-called reform. C'est la vie!

    Parent
    Let me get this straight (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:13:11 AM EST
    IF there is a public option now and IF there is a fight to expand in say, 4 years, are you saying you would sit it out?

    That's how you demonstrate your passion for an issue?

    you just personally attacked yourself there Lambert.

    Parent

    Feh (none / 0) (#94)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:19:49 AM EST
    You are familiar with the meaning of the word "irony"? Because, obviously -- even though, by your own admission, the progressive clusterf**k of a strategery put off a real solution until four years hence -- that's not what I said.

    I do grant that distorting a response is a step upward from table pounding. And you do recognize the irony, correct?

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:29:35 AM EST
    I read what you wrote.

    I take it I misinterpreted the meaning of your words. I am happy to hear that.

    Tomorrow is another day my friend.

    Godspeed.

    Parent

    It's the CBO estimates, not mine... (none / 0) (#15)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:16:01 AM EST
    Not Ezra's.  And, it is because it so firewalled.  And, if it is so firewalled, it ain't going to have the market power to offer lower priced health care with a sufficient doctor network.  I say make it a viable plan that anyone can opt-in to as it was supposed to be.  Or, just let people opt-in to Medicare.  But, people have gone from advocating for a national Medicare-like program to any plan with the word "public" in it will do, and that is pathetic.  If you want publicly available health care for all you have to argue for it.

    Parent
    What's getting pathetic (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:17:45 AM EST
    is your constant attacks on people who express a preference given the REAL political situation this year.

     

    Parent

    To whit (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:20:12 AM EST
    There are not 200 votes for Medicare For All in the House, not to mention there are not 30 votes for it in the Senate.

    If we could have done this over, PERHAPS a strong President using the bully pulpit from Day 1 could have made that different, but that did not happen. I personally doubt it could have happened but that was the only way.

    Anthony Weiner knows this and is working to achieve that in the future. That is why he supports a public option.

    Parent

    He advocates for expanding Medicare... (none / 0) (#20)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:29:01 AM EST
    as late as yesterday he wrote a post on "rethinking single payer"...so clearly he doesn't think the public plan is going to do it.

    Parent
    He IS VOTING for the House Public Option plan (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:31:57 AM EST
    Please deal with the reality that he can advocate for single payer WHILE AT THE SAME TIME support a public option.

    If that concept can penetrate into your mind, then you might understand what I am arguing (perhaps wrongly). But until you understand and absorb that, there is not point to our discussion.

    To wit, if you hate me, then you have to hate Anthony Weiner too.

    Eric Massa is your man (for now, because he will vote for a public option too in the end.)

    Parent

    I don't doubt they will vote for the health care (none / 0) (#26)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:33:49 AM EST
    plan.  My point is if he had a lot of faith in it as you do he wouldn't need to argue for expanding Medicare.  

    Parent
    Of course he should (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:39:17 AM EST
    This battle does not end now. The battle for expansion will be ongoing hell IS ongoing.

    Parent
    He'll vote (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:49:29 AM EST
    for the public plan.  He's just forming a left flank.

    If he wouldn't vote for the public plan, he would simply be yelling about a separate conversation being had and would not be receiving so much attention.  The fact that he will vote for the public plan gives his discussion of single payer more attention and credibility.

    Parent

    Again... (2.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:49:45 AM EST
    .... I'm noticing a tendency to dismiss arguments ("pathetic") based on who makes them, rather than on substance.

    I know it's stressful to defend an inferior policy position, but surely there's a better way to make your case than by calling advocates of the superior policy position "pathetic" (and "idiots")?

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:51:41 AM EST
    Your tendency to defend people based on who they are is what we are seeing here.

    MassLib's attacks have become incoherent.

    I like her and have defended her many times in the past. I am objecting to her commenting in this thread, which is all out incoherent attack.

    so excuse me, you are wrong again.

    Parent

    What is incoherent about making the case (none / 0) (#60)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:00:54 AM EST
    that a non-viable public plan doesn't give me an alternative to private insurance?  I'm making a business case that the plan can not offer a competitive provider network with competitive premiums because of it's operating costs and the lack of market share at its inception.  I am not against any public plan, I'm just not for any public plan.  It's not an attack.  I have a personal stake in the outcome of this debate and really need a viable alternative to private insurance.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#64)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:02:42 AM EST
    ... if since this thread seems to have devolved -- not by my doing -- into a series of assertions about personalities, this particular "idiot" is going to STFU for a bit, and give it a rest. Well done!

    Meanwhile, Taibbi's article is finally online. Fun!

    Parent

    You're being silly (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:11:54 AM EST
    Tomorrow is another day.

    Parent
    Well, I don't have the time to invest in it (none / 0) (#81)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:14:20 AM EST
    Je repete:

    Readers can see who's arguing the facts, and who's pounding the table. And then they'll ask themselves why that is. Good luck for today!

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:19:33 AM EST
    I see that your concern is with the reader's impressions of you.

    It is not mine.

    Parent

    Distortion is a step upward from table pounding! (none / 0) (#96)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:22:39 AM EST
    Congrats.

    I wrote: "Readers can see who's arguing the facts"

    My concern is the facts -- the reader takeaway.

    Parent

    Come on (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:28:03 AM EST
    you left yourself wide open there my friend.

    I could not leave such an opening untapped.

    As I said, tomorrow is another day. Your views are respected, valid and coherent.

    They are not accepted by me. I think your concerns are not unfounded but I do not agree with them at the end of the day as a reason to oppose the public option.

    Godspeed my friend.

    Parent

    So Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:24:50 AM EST
    has Ezra for lunch ro is it breakfast? If I were Ezra I would quit talking. I can't believe he's seen as some sort of authority.

    Me either (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:43:11 AM EST
    Can we be honest? (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:52:01 AM EST
    Ezra pretends to be a public option supporter because he knows that no initiative is more important to the American people.  He doesn't seem to really feel or believe this deep down though, and he knows what the really important initiatives are supposed to be but the masses are too stupid to understand what is supposed to really matter to them.  The stupid masses are all up in arms about paying mortgages, no jobs, bailing out Wall Street, predatory credit running wild, going bankrupt when they are ill even when they do have insurance coverage....all these stupid simpleton worries and woes eating up the elites important time and energies.  And there goes that whole reality that Somerby tries to say is not so....but it is, liberal elites think they are smarter than all the rest of us.  They think they are better and we the low life civilians and our low life initiatives must somehow be tolerated so that one day the REAL initiatives can be addressed.

    He pretends it because he is pretending to be (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:01:15 AM EST
    a "Progressive," indeed a "leading progressive voice" on health care,  and that requires an "of course I support a public option."

    It's funny because Lambert tried to "shame" me because I am not gung ho to the mattresses on single payer now like he is. I saw him do not to Chris Bowers and it got under Bowers' skin, because Bowers' own self image is of this pure Progressive.

    As you know, my own self image is of someone who writes precisely what he thinks, not of someone who is progressive on any particular issue.

    Course it is easy for me, I wrote for me, not for money.  

    Parent

    More personal attacks (none / 0) (#67)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:04:13 AM EST
    Good luck!

    Parent
    Personal attack? (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:09:22 AM EST
    It was a tctic Lambert. I have used it in my time as well.

    I make no judgment on its use. If it is effective for what you want to accomplish, good for you.

    I would use it if it worked for me.


    Parent

    Well, I don't have the time to invest in it (none / 0) (#79)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:13:51 AM EST
    Je repete:

    Readers can see who's arguing the facts, and who's pounding the table. And then they'll ask themselves why that is. Good luck for today!

    Parent

    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:17:35 AM EST
    I do not worry about the readers judging me.

    That is your mistake here.

    your style of table pounding does not work with me.

    Parent

    Oh lambert (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:18:15 AM EST
    you really need to stay in play.  You bring up points that everyone needs to think about, things often get forgotten during discussion too that happen to be a certain persons pet project.  The debate and the resulting actions due to the debate is the democracy.

    Parent
    Oh, not forever! (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:03:33 AM EST
    I have RL issues, too, and in fact I've stayed to long here.

    * * *

    Speaking as a guy who's done an awful lot of blogging and so has a feel for the shape the discourse takes:

    I think people who've been following this thread and the other "camel's nose" threads will agree that there's a substantive case to be made against the "camel's nose" view that BTD espouses, and that I among others have addressed and refuted it (which doesn't mean BTD is wrong, BTW!) And when BTD reviews the thread he'll find these points and address them.

    Right now, though, he hasn't done that, and so we get lawyerly responses that are rote, tactical, and not substantive ("you're an idiot," "I've answered that").

    Well, I don't see any reason to invest time in dealing with that. Then again, because I'm advocating for the only policy (single payer) on offer (HR676, S703) that can be shown to work, my job is easier:  I just have to argue the facts. Since BTD has to argue a hypothetical (which is what the "camel's nose" is), his job is harder, so it makes sense to give him time to prepare a substantive response.

    Parent

    To be fair in discussing this (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:17:02 AM EST
    I also believe in camel noses :) If I'm wrong and I get what I want (which looks doubtful too now)  I will have to wear my shame.

    Parent
    There is an important (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:18:30 AM EST
    difference between you and Anthony Weiner.  And I think what he's doing is more effective.

    Parent
    And so it ought to be! (none / 0) (#116)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:49:17 AM EST
    nt

    Parent
    Does he pretend in order to get paid? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:06:03 AM EST
    And I'm fine without single payer at this time too.  I want something on the table to work with and public option can be worked with.  I don't worry about states having failed at certain forms of it either because states simply do not have the same powers and resources that federal government does.

    Parent
    On some level (none / 0) (#115)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48:44 AM EST
    probably. But I think his self image is also a part of it.

    NOTE- This is merely my opinion.

    Parent

    Film at 11! (none / 0) (#117)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:52:22 AM EST
    Bloggers have self images!

    Thank goodness I was sitting down, otherwise I might have staggered.

    * * *

    At this point, there are plenty of links and sources from me on these issues. And you know what? The state of my soul and my motivations are completely without relevance to the validity and usefulness of those sources and links.

    So, when you can't win on the policy and the facts, you shoot the messenger. It's happened before, and it will happen again.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#123)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:06:34 AM EST
    Obviously I got under your skin.

    tomorrow is another day.

    godspeed my friend.

    Parent

    It has become obvious (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by kenosharick on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:03:53 AM EST
    that the only winners in "reform" will be the big insurance companies. When people used to comment that there was "no difference" between the parties I always defended Dems. Now I am not so sure. Klein seems to demonstrate the sameness of the parties.  We are seeing Bush's third term, yes?

    In the words of the old joke (3.50 / 2) (#72)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:07:57 AM EST
    "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

    Too much table pounding going on here for me!

    not sure if you're miffed about people (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    disliking camille paglia, but it's enough to warrant an explanation.

    paglia is like modo mixed with 5 times more training in semiotics and lingistics and stuff.

    the discerning reader will note a trend.

    modo and paglia aren't interested in calling obama a wimp because they care about the public option.

    they do so because they burnish their credentials by calling everyone around them wimps.

    in paglia's world the only people who aren't wimps are strippers who have convinced themselves they are wielding some power over men, and the men who tip strippers.

    paglia's a joke, and has nothing to offer any discussion either way.

    all that said.  obama is acting kind of wimpy.  we're trying to get him to stop.  we're not, -- at least i hope not all of us -- we are not trying to burnish a reputation for having the "guts" to call people "wimps" at the drop of every hat.

    Parent

    And the final line of that joke should be (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48:25 AM EST
    something about pounding one's head on the table, because that's where I think I am with all of this.

    People read and hear what they want to - I do that, too - but it's clear to me who is digging into the details and who isn't, and who believes the details must accompany the politics and who doesn't.

    I'm not opposed to compromise, but it has to be compromise that moves us closer to where we want to be, not some phony, ooh-this-will-get-me-elected-again-before-they-figure-out-it's-cr@p, keep-saying-10-million-people-until-it's-all-people-remember, campaign that is a total win for the insurance industry.

    Expand Medicare downward: if you're 55-64, you get to enroll.  In two years, move it down again.  If people want to keep their private insurance, let them.

    This isn't happening because private insurance doesn't want it to, and our legislators need all that corporate money to keep getting elected.  We, the people, are extraneous.

    Head, meet table.  Pass the Advil.

    Parent

    Politics is table pounding (none / 0) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:15:43 AM EST
    But I think you give yourself too little credit in terms of the table pounding. you knocked over a few chairs yourself.

    Parent
    Pushing the best policy will do that (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:29:37 AM EST
    And this "little single payer advocate" is quite used to being derided, excluded, and censored. So I'm familiar with all the rhetorical tactics.

    But since I am  defending single payer (HR676, S 703), which is a policy that can be shown to work, I can work from facts.

    Now, those who are being pounded with facts may confuse that with pounding the table; but such confusion is not mine.


    Parent

    Enjoy having you here (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:34:09 AM EST
    among the derided and excluded.

    Come now Lambert, let's not pretend that you have the "facts" on the future if a "public option" is enacted.

    These are opinions, and about politics for crissakes.

    Pounding the table is what we all do.

    Tomorrow is another day my friend.

    godspeed.


    Parent

    Then expand it now for fecks sake... (none / 0) (#2)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 07:54:41 AM EST
    I think you and Krugman must make a good deal of income and have very good insurance if you think any public option is enough. He says the backlash got Obama the nomination?  Hillary ran on an actually viable Medicare-like public program.   Sooner or later, Democrats who support government administered health care have to stop thinking massive amounts of people can wait around while being shifted to private for-profit insurance for it to be the right time to expand it.

    I'm sure we both make good incomes (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:11:52 AM EST
    and have no health insurance issues in our personal life.

    But I HOPE that does not exclude us from having opinions on the subject in your world.

    My camel's nose under the tent theory has been explained before and is augmented here.

    Perhaps you may want to address it.

    But I doubt it. You prefer just railign at me apparently.

    That is your right. Hell, I do it to Ezra Klein. But at least I address what he writes.

    Parent

    I have addressed it countless times. (none / 0) (#19)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:26:23 AM EST
    For the public option to offer lower priced, high quality health care, it needs market share.  What doctors or providers are going to accept lower prices without a bigger market?  The way the PO is written it has to compete like a private business not a government program.  It's needs to work in the Exchange, so it needs to compensate the Exchange.  It needs to build it's own provider network.  It needs to advertise for customers.  It has to pay back every dollar of federal investment back to the government with in a matter of a few years.  All of it's costs need to be covered by premiums.  Even public pressure doesn't mean it will be expanded anytime in the near future.  Look at SCHIP, look at Medicaid, look at Medicare, how long has it taken to expand those programs?  I don't think people would have to wait for high quality, affordable health care.  I don't think Congress has offered a viable public option as they promised to.  Details matter, and what they have crafted is a hamstrung public program.

    Parent
    Masslib, there's a difference (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:14:48 AM EST
    between SCHIP/Medicaid/Medicare and a PO.  (And that's leaving aside the fact that SCHIP is, in fact, an expansion of Medicaid, disproving your overall point, but never mind.)  Those there are programs for specific demographic categories.

    What makes the PO different is that it is not targeted to the specific problems of any one demographic category.  There are no built-in limits to eligibility, as there are with programs designed for people over or under a certain age or income.

    That makes it by definition much more easily expanded bit by bit.

    Parent

    If SCHIP (none / 0) (#137)
    by cawaltz on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 03:57:25 PM EST
    is an expansion of Medicaid then BTD isn't right that once a program comes into play it can't get cut. Just ask the families of children in places like California or Tennessee.

    Parent
    Not addressing it (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:29:34 AM EST
    again.

    Parent
    Well, then I haven't a clue as to what your (none / 0) (#24)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:32:21 AM EST
    argument is.

    Parent
    That's what I said (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:33:01 AM EST
    And if the camel turns out to be a vampire squid? (none / 0) (#27)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:34:56 AM EST
    The camel's nose theory has been explained many times, and also responded to many times.

    Parent
    and disagreed with many times (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:40:27 AM EST
    I respect you Lambert but I do not agree with you on this issue.

    Parent
    I'm aware that you don't agree (none / 0) (#44)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:45:27 AM EST
    I am also thoroughly aware that you don't address the substance of my responses. It's a bailout!

    The proposal has come straight from the insurance industry: criminalize the uninsured and subsidize unaffordable private insurance premiums with public funds
    .

    Surely the insurance companies will divert a portion of the revenues from their bailout to prevent exactly the kind of incremental reform you advocate? I'd argue that's what the banksters did!

    Parent

    I think I do address it (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:48:13 AM EST
    you just do not like my response - yes it is a bailout or giveaway if you will, but in exchange for a program and money that will lead to real reform.

    Without the public option, I oppose the reform aspects of the bill, ESPECIALLY the mandates.

    I wrote a post yesterday about taking the money, the cannoli, and leaving the gun, the mandates, and living to fight another day on "reform."

    Parent

    To which the riposte is... (none / 0) (#87)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:17:33 AM EST
    ... with the revenue stream from the guaranteed market they then prevent the next round of reform just as the banksters have done with financial reform (in addition to other responses -- the helpful comment section really does let me keep track). So, I can only think, the resort to table pounding. As I said, good luck to you; readers can judge, I am sure.

    Parent
    your supposition (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:21:23 AM EST
    is inaccurate in my view.

    I believe that the camel's nose under the tent will make the insurers' task very difficult.

    But pound the table by all means.

    Parent

    Er... (none / 0) (#110)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:45:45 AM EST
    ... when I give the reasoning behind the point, and instance a precedent for it, that's not pounding the table. Labeling something so doesn't make it so -- except reflexively --  as I'm sure you are well aware. But, when defending an inferior policy position, sometimes the tactics that must be used are not those one would necessarily wish to use.

    But do feel free to adopt the tactic I introduced ;-)

    Parent

    Camille Paglia (none / 0) (#12)
    by kidneystones on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:14:16 AM EST
    Nails it.

    As an Obama supporter I am outraged... Obama went flat as a rug in letting Congress pass that obscenely bloated stimulus package. Had more Democrats protested, the administration would have felt less arrogantly emboldened to jam through a cap-and-trade bill whose costs have made it virtually impossible for an alarmed public to accept the gargantuan expenses of national healthcare reform. (Who is naive enough to believe that Obama's plan would be deficit-neutral? Or that major cuts could be achieved without drastic rationing?)

    Wall Street fed first, then cap and trade. I don't know enough about the budget (does anyone?) to know if Paglia's final point is right. But others here have pointed to the Wall Street bail-out as the elephant that broke the donkey's back.

    The war in Afghanistan isn't going to go away or pay for itself. And there are other nasty fp challenges looming in the wings. Money for fixing schools and opening libraries?

    Dems deserve better. We all do.

    Nails it? (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:15:55 AM EST
    you gotta be kidding. Camille Paglia is a phony fool.

    Parent
    I'm noticing a certain tendency... (none / 0) (#39)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:41:55 AM EST
    ... to reject points made based on who makes them, rather than on the substance of the argument. Of course, it's always stressful to defend an inferior policy position, but the adoption of "any stick to beat a dog" modes of argumentation is regrettable.

    Personally, I'd attack her for her obvious acceptance of Versailles conventional wisdom. She writes:

    ....  an alarmed public to accept the gargantuan expenses of national healthcare reform....

    Of course, single payer (HR676; S703) would save $350 billion a year; that goes a long way to shrinking Gargantua. But since Paglia's world is Versailles, that's not part of her reality.

    Parent
    I did not think it needed spelling out (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:43:57 AM EST
    "Personally, I'd attack her for her obvious acceptance of Versailles conventional wisdom. She writes:"

    That is Camille PAglia's libertarian BS schtick.

    I assumed familiarity with the writer.


    Parent

    Let me add (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:45:41 AM EST
    that if I ever deemed Camille Paglia worthy of writing a post about, the chances of that are almost ZERO, I would address her arguments.

    To me it is as unthinkable as addressing Sean Hannity or Bill O' Reilly seriously, Hell, addressing Keith Olbermann seriously.

    Camille Paglia does not merit being taken seriously imo.

    Parent

    I'm quite familiar with Paglia (none / 0) (#54)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:52:23 AM EST
    and the other writers -- to dignigy them -- that you cite.

    I recommend a policy-based response as a tactic.

    I can do that because I'm advocating a policy option that can be shown to work. I understand that rhetorical stance is not available to all.

    Parent

    In a post? (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:54:28 AM EST
    Never. Camille Paglia is in the ashbin of irrelevancy. No one cares what Camille Paglia thinks.

    you address her if you feel so inclined. she is a nonenetity.

    There is a much better argument for addressing Hannity, who has much more influence.

    Paglia is stupid AND unimportant. Hell, I should have ignored the comment about her.

    Parent

    By the way (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:57:20 AM EST
    Your stance of moral superiority is only funny to me.

    I make no claims to being some Progressive Saint.

    Sheeeet, I said in 2008 I was not even paying attention to the health care issue.

    You can play that card on bowers, Lambert. He cares. I do not.

    I am a corporate shilling, Centrist Hawk who supports preventive detention, escalation in Afghanistan and free trade.

    I do not require anyone think I am a "progressive" or even think of me at all.

    I write what I think. Always have. always will.

    Parent

    More personal attacks (2.00 / 1) (#66)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:03:43 AM EST
    Again, when you defend an inferior policy, "any stick to beat a dog.

    Good luck with it!

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:11:09 AM EST
    Lambert. I told you already it has no effect on me.

    I make no judgment on the use of that tactic. If it was effective for me, I would use it.

    Hell, I hit at Ezra Klein all the time, an inordinate amount of time. Am I personally attacking him? I do no think so.

    But certainly what I am doing is a tactic.

    Parent

    Well, I don't have the time to invest in it (none / 0) (#78)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:13:20 AM EST
    Readers can see who's arguing the facts, and who's pounding the table. And then they'll ask themselves why that is. Good luck for today!

    Parent
    You're too modest (none / 0) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:18:40 AM EST
    As I wrote before, you have knocked over more than a few chairs yourself.

    Parent
    Alternate Universe: American Single Payer (none / 0) (#59)
    by kidneystones on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:59:43 AM EST
    BTD took a rather heavy swipe at masslib for talking about what HRC might have done were she president, calling that wasting time in the alternate universe where HRC is president.

    Evidently one alternate universe is more habitable than another, because nobody I'm reading right now is talking about a Canada like single payer system.

    You'll get no argument from me about the obscene profit-taking that takes place in the US health system. Paglia's point is: Dems appear to be working for a bill that empowers insurance companies, not people. Does anybody really think that the insurance companies and Wall St. bankers that currently cut deals with this administration behind closed doors are going to allow a single-payer national health-care system.

    Maybe that's what Dems are really proposing: build a system like Canada's. That could be what's really happening...couldn't it? I mean the troops are mostly home. Gitmo is closed...

    Talk about your alternate realities.

    Parent

    in this case (none / 0) (#69)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:04:37 AM EST
    yes.  it's unfortunate that camille has let herself, the messenger, become a liability with respect to her message.


    Parent
    Wall St. Bailout (TARP) and stimulus package (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:51:18 AM EST
    are two entirely different bills. Which one is Paglia really talking about? You reference Wall St., which makes me think you think she is talking about TARP, but if she can't keep them straight the rest of her points are mush. The stimulus bill was generally good for Dems and Obama, though I don't think it was as good as it should have been.

    Parent
    Yeah, totally stupid (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:55:04 AM EST
    One can take the view that TARP (with the other loans) and HR3200 and its cousins are both bailouts for large financial institutions that reward rent-seeking behavior. Not Versailles conventional wisdom, so of course Paglia can't say that.

    Parent
    camille paglia criticizing obama (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:01:13 AM EST
    makes me think he's doing something right.

    Parent
    Only if your thinking is binary (none / 0) (#113)
    by lambert on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:48:39 AM EST
    When A tells me it's raining, and B doesn't... I can say I'm on B's team, so it's raining, or you can check the window.

    Not a knock on you, Paglia gives me the creeps, but the general principle is well worth pointing out.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#58)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 08:57:54 AM EST
    in any case, Ezra was pretty blunt this morning in non-support of the public option:

    If you want cost control, though, you're going to have to follow through on one of these strategies, and that's going to mean making providers and patients really angry. Both like the health system better when it's got unlimited amounts of money flowing through it. It's actually easier for me to imagine a system with private insurers that holds costs down than a system with the current provider reimbursement rates and relatively passive insurers (be they private or public) that holds costs down. Something's gotta give.

    An all private system?  Is that really the "left" idea here?

    The public plan is the new idea here.  Regulations come and go (obviously).  If Obama's plan is only regulatory I think it will be seen in a few years (when a Republican is in office) as a failed effort at regulation.  It won't even be reform.  Hopefully Obama comes down on one side or another tonight on what mechanism he wants for increasing competition.  That should bring the fight to a head.

    And of course, I still want to know from Ezra how a public plan that is originally going to cover only 10 million constitutes a "bigger than LBJ" type of reform.  Esp. when the public plan is not even the center of what Ezra is talking about.

    Small point - or maybe not so small: (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:16:40 AM EST
    The "plan" will not originally have 10 million people; it may eventually have 10 million people.

    As for Ezra, I'm thrilled for him that he has a vivid imagination ("It's actually easier for me to imagine a system with private insurers that holds costs down..."), but I am beginning to think of him as an intelligent but over-eager high school student playing at being a grown-up.  Note to Ezra: it's people's lives - physical, mental and financial - at stake here, not a game of "let's pretend."

    Parent

    The goal is Universal Health Coverage (none / 0) (#75)
    by Exeter on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:11:40 AM EST
    Other industrialized nation's acheive this goal through a variety of strategies. As T.R. Reid point out, some countries have public health insurance, some have socialized medicine, and some have a well regulated health insurance industry.

    A well regulated health insurance industry (5.00 / 7) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:16:37 AM EST
    is not possible in the US imo.

    Thus, I reject that alternative.

    Your mileage may vary.

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    Can you explain what you mean by not possible? (none / 0) (#103)
    by vicndabx on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    Cuz, there's plenty of regulation today.  Each state has it's own Department of Insurance, that controls among other things, rate increases, and coverage to be included in new products.

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    How's that working out for you? (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    My phrase was "well regulated."

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    I'm asking what does that mean to you? (none / 0) (#107)
    by vicndabx on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:39:47 AM EST
    Well regulated to what end?

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    Treat them as public utlity (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:47:13 AM EST
    is the only possible regulatory model the MIGHT work, and probably that would not either.

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    The state agencies can't really control things (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:52:50 AM EST
    because the insurance companies can "run away" if they don't like the regulations.  Happened in my state (WA) circa 1995 or so?  Deborah Senn attempted to heavily regulate the individual insurance market, and Blue Cross/Blue Shield and Group Health stopped selling individual policies in Washington State.  They came back only when they got pretty much everything they wanted.

    Now, Washington does a nice job of pretending they're controlling things while giving insurance everything they want....

    However, if the regs were nationally enforced, the insurance companies couldn't run away -- where they gonna go, Canada?  But such regs are  politically impossible to implement with people like Bad Max (where'd I get that nickname?) running the show.

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    i would think... (none / 0) (#120)
    by Dadler on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:57:34 AM EST
    ...that if they saw that kind of strong regulation coming, then they'd simply close up shop, take their billions, and go home.  They're not in it for anything else.

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    The question is (none / 0) (#108)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:42:07 AM EST
    is there any way we can ramp our system of regulation up to the next level?  Because the current problems exist notwithstanding all that regulation.

    The state insurance commissioners actually do great work by and large.  I'm not sure I would expect a federal regulator to be as effective, and there's a huge risk of regulatory capture.

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    When is the regulation supposed to be (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 09:28:35 AM EST
    kicking in again?  And then if that fails when insurance companies have no incentive to comply whaaaaaaat?

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