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Misunderstanding The Blago Farce

Digby and Jane Hamsher [in a comment, Jane states that her objection is to excluding Burris from the Democratic Caucus, not to attempts to not seat Burris. My apologies to Jane for my confusion.] misunderstand the Blago Farce. Digby cites Jack and Jill blog writing:

Harry Reid, as well as the President-Elect, needs to explain why Traitor Joe Lieberman was allowed to keep his Senate seat . . .

Digby argues, by implication, that Burris has a better claim to a Senate seat than Lieberman. A few facts get in the way of this silliness. Joe Lieberman won an election. Rod Blagojevich is about to be impeached and likely go to jail - for trying to sell a Senate seat, among other things. Burris would be appointed by Blagojevich, not elected by the people. Suuure, Burris has the better claim. Sheesh. More errors on the flip.

Digby further writes:

I would add that the little end run by the Attorney General to have Blagojevich removed by the state supreme court and the Senate's clearly unconstitutional assertion that they can refuse to seat anyone they choose doesn't exactly reassure me that the Dems are going to be all that much more respectful of the law than the Republicans were. There are proper ways to handle this stuff and these are not among them.

That paragraph is pretty disrespectful of the facts and the law. The Attorney General went to court and made an argument, a good faith argument, to a court of law. The argument was rejected. The parties accepted the judgment of the court. This is the essence of respect for the law. The Bush Administration refused to go to court to have its legal theories tested. Muddled thinking by Digby here.

In terms of the Senate's claim regarding the Blagojevich appointment, Digby simply misstates the claim. The Senate does not claim "they can refuse to seat anyone they choose." What the Senate is claiming is that since Blagojevich has been accused by the US Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois Patrick Fitzgerald of trying to sell the Senate seat, that Blagojevich is incapacitated from making an appointment to that seat.

In terms of the constitutionality of that assertion, that remains to be tested. The Powelll v. McCormack case is NOT determinative of this question in my opinion. [Scribe points us to this SCOTUSBlog analysis of the issue. I agree with it.]

Finally, I think the political judgment of Digby and Hamsher here is completely wrong, but who knows, maybe they are right. But the lack of respect for the facts and a proper explanation of the issues involved in the posts was extremely bothersome to me.

Speaking for me only

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    Aren't we missing something very simple? (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:05:55 PM EST
    "about to be impeached and likely go to jail" doesn't cut it. He hasn't been impeached, and may never go to jail. To refuse to seat someone because of a "maybe" sets a dangerous precedent. Many governors undergo investigation - are we to guess which one of them might be convicted, and act accordingly?

    Bill Clinton served as president during an impeachment trial - yet he continued to make appointments and sign legislation.  

    Fitz & co. have had 30 days to pull it together. Now they are asking for an extension.  Maybe they just don't have the stuff to convict.  Maybe he'll walk.

    And he clearly doesn't want to step down.

    Very good point (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:16:57 PM EST
    The people of Illinois through their duly elected legislature had the power to remove Blago from office.  As a resident of an adjoining state I've watched people call for his impeachment even before this scandal broke.  So far the people have chosen not to remove him.  Maybe they will in the future but so far they haven't.  

    Maybe he'll also be convicted of a crime.  But so far he hasn't.

    Right now he is the duly elected governor of a state with the power to appoint someone to the office.  There is no evidence that he sold this particular appointment so there is no evidence that he abused his power on this appointment.  

    For the Senate of the United States to decide not to seat the person appointed by the duly elected governor of a state in accordance with state law where there is no indication that his power was abused in THIS appointment is not a good precedent to set.  Digby and Hamsher may have their facts wrong (I agree with BTD on the action by the Attorney General and the IL supreme court and certainly this whole thing may end up being litigated) but as a political matter this would be a bad move by the Senate.

    Parent

    Turley on the Burris appointment - FYI (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:39:28 PM EST
    I agree with BTD that the Senate has the right to look into Blago's appointment of Burris. Jonathan Turley argues that the only legal basis on which to refuse to seat Burris pursuant to a Senate investigation is establishing that the appointment was bought [or sold?]. According to Turley, there's no evidence of this. It seems to me, the Senate has authority to inquire.

    There's also a lead post today at Turley site that goes over the refusal to certify matter.  Turley believes such refusal has no merit.

     

    Parent

    They are EXERCISING (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:19:57 PM EST
    that power.

    An impeachment commission has been named and Blago will be removed before January is over.

    It is a point AGAINST the argument presented.


    Parent

    They have not yet exercised it (none / 0) (#22)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:23:21 PM EST
    and until they do he retains his powers.  

    Do you think Bill Clinton lost his powers to appoint while in the process of being impeached?  Do you think his appointments would have been invalid if he had been removed from office?  

    Even if he is removed - he has ALREADY made the appointment.  I don't see how the next governor gets to rescind it?  Under what law?

    I truly can't stand Blago, I haven't liked him for years.  I'm in a media market that covers southern IL so I get a lot of news about him.  But LEGALLY he can make this appointment and impeaching him after the fact doesn't change that.

    Parent

    As a political matter (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:24:43 PM EST
    as I wrote in another comment, Clinton basicvally losdt the power to make major appointments while under the impeachment cloud. No SCOTUS appointment he made during that time would have been taken up by the Senate.

    Parent
    There's a difference (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:27:15 PM EST
    between an appointment that needs the consent of another body and this.  If the IL legislature had to consent to the appointment we'd be talking about a whole different situation.

    Do you really want to argue that the Senate of the United States' power to determine whether a Senator should be properly seated rises to the level of advice and consent?

     

    Parent

    The Senate's power (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:28:41 PM EST
    under Article I, Section 5 will determine whether the appointment is subject to the consent of another body. I think it will be subject to such consent.

    Parent
    And I think (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:36:48 PM EST
    that raising that power to the level of consent by the senate is a dangerous precedent.  Hence my original comment.

    Parent
    Blago put us there (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:43:00 PM EST
    To me it would be more dangerous to capitualte to him.

    Burris to me is the villain of this piece.

    Parent

    Burris is a hero, not a villain (none / 0) (#112)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:51:51 PM EST
    to many African Americans in Illinois.

    I think too many here are viewing this from an Eastern elite perspective, not knowing the turf in Chitown and other factors.

    BTD, what if the Senate refused to seat the first Puerto Rican elected to high office in New York?  The first Hispanic elected to high office in Florida?  And neither ever had been made villains before, but only when appointed to the Senate?

    Burris is no doubt no saint, as TChris diaried, but he has a clean record not meriting Senate refusal.  You do seem to be veering back and forth from arguments based on the process to arguments based on the persons involved. . . .

    Parent

    If Paterson were under indictment (none / 0) (#141)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:14:22 PM EST
    for trying to sell the seat, I think no self respecting Latino would accept such an appointment.

    I know I would denounce any who did.

    Parent

    There you go again. Blago is not (4.00 / 3) (#150)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:36:10 PM EST
    under indictment.  

    Shifting sands from comment to comment suggest that you know that you do not have a firm foundation.  

    You just don't like this -- Blago, Chicago, et al.  I could say that I told you all so on TalkLeft, to constant attacks about my concerns about Chicago politics making a mess of the party and country.

    But get used to it.  I would bet good money that Repubs are paying really good money for lots of researchers in Illinois right now, and this will continue for years to come.  It's what they do.

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:38:25 PM EST
    Here, "if Paterson had a criminal complaint filed against him by the US Attorney for the Southern District of NY . . ."

    Feel better now?

    Your pedantry here is tiring.

    I think my position is clear. Disagree with it but do not pretend  am shifting it.

    You are on your own now.

    Parent

    I'm not pretending. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:34:03 PM EST
    But I've got other matters to ponder, so thanks for the conversation -- as we await what may be some lively hours on CSpan.  

    Or not, if it all just fizzles away, and we get to see whether this was a deflection from something else afoot.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#201)
    by fafnir on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:31:31 PM EST
    The essential question posed by Burris is this: "By what authority can [Reid] deny a governor carrying out his constitutional authority?"

    Reid has none.

    Parent

    I think the question should be narrower (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:28:26 PM EST
    If he had had the ability to fire Ken Starr in 1998, and had done it, and then tried to name a replacement, what would the reaction have been?

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:30:01 PM EST
    He was the President and had the legal power!!

    Isn't that what Dems said when Archibald Cox was fired? No?

    a lot of stupid in the LEft blogs on this.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:33:08 PM EST
    I did have the Saturday Night Massacre in mind.

    Parent
    I think the Senate (4.00 / 1) (#10)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:10:22 PM EST
    is well within its rights to decide that the severity of this particular accusation (trying to sell the Senate seat) means that they can't seat  appointment by Blago.

    Parent
    So (4.85 / 7) (#12)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:13:53 PM EST
    if anyone is accused of anything, however unjustly (and I'm not saying this is unjust - I'm talking about the principle of the thing), the Senate can refuse to honor his or her appointments - even if the accused person should be exonerated later, or never brought to trial? Even if the charges are turn out to be malicious?

    Frankly, I think it's going to be a really ugly photo op when 100 Senators turn a black man out of doors.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:15:09 PM EST
    the check is a politicaL one.

    But thank you for not pretending this is just some made up crap.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#18)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:19:29 PM EST
    Of course it's not some made-up crap - but lots of people get off on stuff that's not made-up. Look at Ayers.

    But my question is still: if Clinton could function during an impeachment trial, why not Blago?  

    I'm not saying it's desirable, but couldn't they argue that as a precedent?

    Parent

    I would not compare (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:21:59 PM EST
    the two situations personally. Blago is charged with tryong to sell the Senate seat.

    But if you must, ask yourself this, if a SCTUS seat opened up, would the Republican Senate have taken up Clinton's appointment to such a seat?

    Parent

    He was subject of a criminal complaint (4.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:13:01 PM EST
    filed in court and there will be a indictment within 90 days.

    It's possible the world will end tomorrow, but I am not basing my actions on that possibility.

    Parent

    ok (none / 0) (#13)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    Yeah, the Clinton example... (4.00 / 1) (#32)
    by EL seattle on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:33:56 PM EST
    ... seems appropriate to this situation.  All during the Clinton impeachment there was huffing and puffing from the republicans along the lines of "why won't that stupid b** just quit?"  But Clinton stayed on, and as things progressed along  the scenic Impeachement Parkway, the American public found out about a few things about other politicians that made them seem a bit less-than-stellar when compared with president Clinton.  (Henry Hyde, for example.  And even Newt Gingrich IIRC.)

    Parent
    It seems incredibly inappropriate to me (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:42:10 PM EST
    Rumor has it (4.00 / 1) (#33)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:35:55 PM EST
    Fitz is being flooded with info.  

    Parent
    I'll bet lots of people know things (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:39:40 PM EST
    and they don't want to be the last ones to make a deal.

    Blago is going to jail for a long time.

    Parent

    My guess also. (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Fabian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:50:34 PM EST
    If Blagojevich was that blatant after he knew he was being investigated, how subtle was he before then?

    I know little nothing about this, but I don't remember anyone but Blagojevich himself decrying the investigation and indictment(s) as a witch hunt.  It's as if no one seems to think he is innocent, for whatever reasons.  That is startling to me.  

    It also makes me wonder if Blagojevich was really that dirty and disliked, why didn't all the people who are rushing to impeach him now lift a finger earlier?  

    Parent

    You are startled by Chicago politics (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:57:45 PM EST
    and that's all.  Chicagoans are not; they know that no Chicago pol gets to be mayor or gov or whatever by being clean.  That's the difference you're seeing, the one that is giving you difficulties.

    You have to go back and alter your basic assumptions, go back to 19th-century urban machine politics, to get this, I guess.  Or you have to have grown up with it, so ingrained -- as I have, with lots of Chicago relatives.  Such as an uncle who parked a car illegally on his street for several decades at the cost of five bucks a week to the beat cop, the cousins who had to pass the standard twenty bucks to the driving inspectors to pass their tests to get their licenses, etc.

    You have to see, as we did in my town, a family of six fry alive in their van on our freeways when they were hit by a truck driven by one of the guys who was illiterate and could not read road signs or instructions or anything but got his license in the payoff that put Blago's predecessor in prison now. . . .

    Parent

    There's a filk song (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by Fabian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:41:39 PM EST
    About tow truck drivers and impound lots...and the "finishing school at Joliet" which I assume is a prison.  circa 1980.  Not sure what the racket was, but it apparently was not entirely legal.

    Still laughing at how something suddenly becomes an issue when the only difference between yesterday and today is a headline in the newspaper.  Also laughing at people who used "Chicago politics" to say that Obama was tough, when to a lot of us "Chicago politics" meant something else entirely.

    Parent

    The Lincoln Park Pirates (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Fabian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:44:58 PM EST

    We break into cars when we gotta with pickax and hammer and saw
    And they said this garage has no license, ha! little care I for the law
    All our drivers are friendly and courteous. Their good manners you always will get
    'Cause they all are recent graduates of the charm school in Juliet

    Sorry - "charm school in Joliet".
    The Lincoln Park Pirates (you have to scroll down)

    Parent

    Yes, that would be Joliet Sate Pen (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ruffian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:56:17 PM EST
    aka "Stateville". And if I seem to know too much about it - I do. My brother did time there. A horrible place.

    Parent
    Because it's not a good idea to rock the (none / 0) (#77)
    by tigercourse on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:29:16 PM EST
    boat you're sitting in. I'm sure plenty of those polls are as dirty (but more subtle) as the good Governor.

    Parent
    Usually it's not the pols (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:34:50 PM EST
    It's the developers and franchise owners who paid him to play.

    Parent
    Developers.... (none / 0) (#157)
    by Fabian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:48:09 PM EST
    May they all be rendered penniless by the financial fallout.

    Except for the good, honest and ethical developers - if there are any.

    Parent

    Atrios too, now (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:22:39 PM EST
    These folks are seeing something in the politics of this that apparently I'm just not.

    They often do (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:23:44 PM EST
    Mayvbe they are right on the politicvs. I think not. But keep the facts straight please.

    Parent
    Having read it (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:27:39 PM EST
    Atrios proves he can be as stupid as any of them.

    " Whatever one thinks of Blago, he's still the governor, and he hasn't even been indicted or impeached."

    He had a criminal complaint filed against him and will be indicted in short order. He is currently subject to impeachment proceedings. So much for that sillioness.

    " If there's no suggestion that this specific appointment is tainted, then I really don't see what the problem is."

    There is tremendous suggestion this specific appointment is tainted. It is made by BLAGO. Really really stupid.

    All stupid, really

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:29:15 PM EST
    The senate is acting politically (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by esmense on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:53:21 PM EST
    in refusing to seat any Blago appointee. The political goal for Senate Democrats is to symbolically disassociate the party (and the administration) from Blago's corruption. The political goal for Republicans is to make an issue of Democratic (most especially "Chicago") corruption and keep gossip and reporting about the controversy surrounding the President Elect's senate seat in the headlines as for as long as possible. So the question is, is denying Burris the seat good politics? And, if it is, which party is it good for?

    Frankly, I think that unless some misconduct or corruption can be attached to Burris, the Democrats are making a mistake -- playing into Republican hands -- that will mostly just help to keep the controversy alive and in the headlines.

    Just seat the guy and get on with much more pressing and important business.

    As per usual, the Democratic leadership -- thinking it is protecting itself from potential Republican attacks and  criticism -- is  actually cluelessly taking the bait and taking a course that probably will end up serving the Republican's interest more than their own -- over an issue that no matter how they act will not in any significant way serve the real interests of the nation.

    Disagree (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:57:03 PM EST
    I think that unless some misconduct or corruption can be attached to Burris, the Democrats are making a mistake -- playing into Republican hands -- that will mostly just help to keep the controversy alive and in the headlines.

    The controversy is going to be kept alive whether Senate Dems allow Burris's seating or not. But by refusing to allow it, they are directly disassociating themselves from Blago and his Chicago corruption. And that is a very good thing.

    Parent

    I think the ice is very thin (none / 0) (#169)
    by ruffian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:01:50 PM EST
    Do we really want to make the argument that every political act Blago has ever done is tainted, even the honest people that were dealing with him?  I think not.

    Parent
    No, but this particular political act (none / 0) (#171)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:23:12 PM EST
    is directly related to one of the most prominent details from Fitz's charges.

    Parent
    Bad analysis (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:18:17 PM EST
    As long as Burris is in the Senate, so is Blago.

    Your analysis contradicts your conclusions.

    Parent

    Media scandal doesn't feed on logic (none / 0) (#95)
    by esmense on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:40:10 PM EST
    or even reality. It feeds on conflict and "developments" --claims, actions,counter claims, actions and accusations. As long as the Senate fights Blago and Blago fights the Senate, this will dominate the news. And no one will end up looking innocent.

    Parent
    As long as Burris is in the Senate (none / 0) (#109)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:50:38 PM EST
    Blago is in the Senate.

    Parent
    As long as either is in the news (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:58:56 PM EST
    Obama is a Chicago pol.  

    Parent
    By the end of January (none / 0) (#127)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:03:30 PM EST
    we can be rid of both. IF Burris is not seated.

    Parent
    The lawsuits have just started (none / 0) (#176)
    by esmense on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:42:58 PM EST
    are you confident they will all be settled -- to the Democratic leaderships satisfaction -- by the end of the month?

    Parent
    thank you for writing this post (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:58:48 PM EST
    I read both of these posts yesterday and was sort of dumbfounded.  

    Is this Lieberman Derangement Syndrome?  Comparing Lieberman keeping his Senate seat - in the words of The Christian Progressive Liberal - with Burris' seating being accepted is pretty deranged if you ask me.  

    txpublicdefender's link to the Slate legal analysis was a good one I thought.  At least easy to understand.

    If you're not going to engage in the legal argument here how can you say Harry Reid "needs to explain" anything?

    Pre-Burris (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:28:37 PM EST
    HuffPo, Dec 10:

    Because he is still, officially, the governor, Blagojevich has the power to appoint Barack Obama's replacement. Illinois officials have tried to take away such authority by passing legislation that would allow the seat to be decided by a special election. But Blagojevich could make the appointment before the bill becomes law. That said, the United States Senate has the power to reject his appointment - something that Reid threatened in his letter. The fact that 49 other Democratic colleagues, including Vice President-elect Joseph Biden and Secretary of State nominee Hillary Clinton, have signed this letter suggest that they are serious about pushing back against any 11th-hour Blagojevich move.

    ...

    Here is the complete letter.

    "Dear Governor Blagojevich:

    We write to insist that you step down as Governor of Illinois and under no circumstance make an appointment to fill the vacant Illinois Senate seat. In light of your arrest yesterday on alleged federal corruption charges related to that Senate seat, any appointment by you would raise serious questions.

    It is within the authority of the Illinois legislature to remove your power to make this appointment by providing for a special election. But a decision by you to resign or to step aside under Article V of the Illinois Constitution would be the most expeditious way for a new Senator to be chosen and seated in a manner that would earn the confidence of the people of Illinois and all Americans. We consider it imperative that a new senator be seated as soon as possible so that Illinois is fully represented in the Senate as the important work of the 111th Congress moves forward.

    Please understand that should you decide to ignore the request of the Senate Democratic Caucus and make an appointment we would be forced to exercise our Constitutional authority under Article I, Section 5, to determine whether such a person should be seated.

    We do not prejudge the outcome of the criminal charges against you or question your constitutional right to contest those charges. But for the good of the Senate and our nation, we implore you refrain from making an appointment to the Senate."

    My question is, who will be voting on whether to seat Burris?  Obama has already resigned.  So I guess it's 48 Dem Senators and 2 independents.  50 is a simple majority over 99.  All you need is to get the Dem Caucus in agreement to kick out Burris, and it will happen.

    I don't think it's a matter of votes (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:42:02 PM EST
    The Republicans would no doubt join with the Democrats and refuse to seat Burris if it came to that, Cornyn has already said that they want a special election.

    The question, as Armando notes, is whether the Senate has the ability to do that at all, and that's why he points to the analysis in the SCOTUSblog.

    Scott Lemieux
    and Jack Balkin also have very interesting analyses.  

    Also, bmaz has an interesting take on whether Jesse White can refuse to certify the appointment.  

    I don't think this is going to be cut and dried at any point along the way.  Reid intends to punt, refer it to the Senate Rules and Administration Committee and hope that he can stall until Blago is impeached and his replacement can appoint someone else (though nobody is sure if this is legal, either).

    Parent

    it seems to me (none / 0) (#161)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:58:14 PM EST
    that the Democrats are waiting for more signs of the appointment's illegitimacy to accumulate.  At the moment Blago still is in office, still hasn't had his day in court.  A criminal complaint has been filed and he has been arrested.  Given time they will (probably) be able to say, look Blago really was terrible, the process really was corrupted, Burris therefore will not be seated.  They'll be able to point at Blago's indictment and impeachment.  That makes it harder to argue for Burris being seated I think.

    Re: Cornyn, his statement is interesting.  He seems to be aware that the Democrats are the only ones who really have power over whether Burris is seated.  The Republican caucus does not have the numbers to reject him on their own.

    I will check out the analyses you point to in your post.  

    Parent

    Well, allow me to say that (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:45:28 PM EST
    despite my disagreement with some interpretations and opinions here, and despite the need for BTD to fix misunderstandings about a post about misunderstanding . . . this has been a fascinating discussion, just the sort that brings me back to TL to learn from a lot of legal minds, political minds, and others wise in reading between lines of laws, rulings, media, and more.

    I have learned a lot from this thread, more than many; thanks, all.

    The PR p.o.v. (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:22:28 PM EST
    It's not legalities that are going to prevail in the end, but appearances and media coverage.

    Regardless of the legal merits, if the Senate quietly seats Burris, the spotlight effectively returns to Chicago, and the Dems can attempt to keep the Blago case a local disaster.

    If they refuse to seat (with all the photo ops of a black man being sent away from an all-white Senate), and this gets protracted, the Blago mess goes national.

    Blago's got everyone by the short and curlies. If Burris is seated quietly, you acknowledge Blago's continued authority.  If you resist, then Blago will fulfill his promise to take others down with him.  Can't help but believe that the former course is wiser -- given the technicalities of the whole thing anyway, and also given that indictments, impeachment, and jail are still in the tea leaves. Nothing is a fact till after it happens. In any case, moving the fistfight to the Senate will underscore again and again that this is the cesspool the president-elect arose from, and raise questions about whether he really is the lotus rising pure from the mire.

    With all the thousands of hours of tapes, I can't help but believe a number of other Chicago pols are in danger of having their careers tarnished or trashed.

    Again, I'm not talking rights, constitution, and legalities - I'm talking about appearances and damage control. I think they'll have to hold their noses and do it.

    I agree with you on this one BTD (4.75 / 4) (#1)
    by ruffian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:28:28 AM EST
    I like to start out the year that way!

    While I don't agree with the way Reid is handling this, false comparisons to Lieberman are really irritating. I know I've done some reaching of my own, but even I wouldn't go that far.

    Yep, Apples and Oranges (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by talesoftwokitties on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:07:10 PM EST
    Lieberman and Burris.  

    Parent
    Apples and Oranges, I agree... (none / 0) (#164)
    by pmj6 on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:44:06 PM EST
    ...because Lieberman is a Democrat in name only, practically a neocon on most issues, whereas Burris actually merits the label "Democrat".

    Moreover, "about to be impeached" is not the same thing as "impeached", not by a long shot. Like him or not, Blagojevich is still the governor of Illinois going about his official business. Are all of his other acts in that capacity about to be annulled, too, because he is "about to be impeached"?

    Besides, Blagojevich is not going to be impeached. He knows where the bodies are buried in Illinois. I'm sure he could take down a whole lot of people with him, including people close to Obama (if not Obama himself). This likely explains not only the absence of impeachment, but the fact the Illinois legislature could not even be bothered to pass a law requiring a special election or otherwise stripping the Blagster of his power of appointment.

    And, after seeing Hillary and Bill shamelessly race-baited, Bobby Rush's playing of the race card on the US Senate is just about perfect. Bobby Rush, being the old Obama nemesis, no doubt has no love lost for The One...

    Parent

    Anyone who wants to opine on this (4.66 / 3) (#2)
    by scribe on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:36:16 AM EST
    and particularly Powell v. McCormack would do well to read up - first.  A good place to start is in this post over at SCOTUSBlog on whether and how much Powell will apply to this case.  Hint:  not that much - it's distinguishable on the basis of addressing a different aspect of the Constitution, i.e., "meeting qualifications for the office" rather than the Senate's power to seat or not seat a (prospective) member.

    And, there was a good discussion in one of the open threads the other day about the interplay of state and federal law - which came down to the Illinois Secretary of State having a key gatekeeper role in signing and executing - or not - the appointment.

    But, on to Joementum.  If I'm Obama (and even more if I'm not), seating Joe is not the issue.  Keeping him on is.  I can see a need for a new Ambassador to Israel coming in, oh, about 3 weeks.  And, last I heard, there's bit of a problem going on in that part of the world right now, where someone well-acquainted with the principals (like Holy Joe) would be a better fit to the job than someone who isn't so screwed in.

    Of course, everyone knows that a prime test of patriotism is saying "yes" when your president asks you to serve.

    And then, in the context of filling Joe's seat, Harry Reid can tell Governor Rell that the Senate won't seat anyone not named Ned Lamont.

    Magical 60?  I think so.

    Magical 60? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:06:07 PM EST
    How does replacing Lieberman with Lamont get the dems to 60 seats?  Don't they already count Lieberman in the dem count anyway?

    Or, has Harry Reid decided if they can refuse to seat Burris, maybe they can refuse to seat Saxby Chambliss too.

    One legally appointed by the sitting governor the other legally elected by voters.

    Maybe Harry figures if he can decide the governor can't make a legitimate appointment, then he can also decide the voters were too stupid to make the right choice too.

    But, back to the magical 60.  Actually how much good will 60 dems in the senate do when so many of them are conservative dems anyway?  We'd be far better off trying to work on the two repubs from Maine to get things done than some of the dems in the senate.

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:58:27 PM EST
    I thought it had limited application, but I'm not a lawyer -- just one who has been a student of law, in courses related to my field.  But a current law student here kept arguing for the case's application, so I finally gave up . . . since the politics of this are even more interesting to me.  I just can't figure out why it is wise for Dems to push this and keep reminding the public that Obama comes from the cesspool of Chicago politics, unless it is to deflect attention from something else.  If so, what?

    Parent
    Burris in the Senate (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:20:06 PM EST
    would be a constant reminder.

    I do not understand what part of that you folks do not understand?

    Parent

    I understand your point (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:50:06 PM EST
    but it's just that you seem to think it's the only point to consider.

    Life is a series of tradeoffs.  There is no good tradeoff in this one -- but Burris, like many newbies in the Senate, could recede to barely visible . . . unless this continued focus on him by Dem leadership makes him a media magnet.  

    Me, I would say yeh, we have to take this guy, but don't worry because we are not going to give him anything to do -- and we-the-Dems will make it a point to replace him with the people's choice at the election.  And until then, we-the-Dems know that the people expect us to put our time and energy into the economy and so much more now.

    Parent

    what is the other tradeoff? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:54:37 PM EST
    I am trying to understand your flip side here?

    Once Blago is removed, Quinn can name Danny Davis.

    Frankly, at this point, Burris seems a downside all by himself, without the Blago taint.

    Parent

    Refusing to seat a historic success story (none / 0) (#101)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:46:48 PM EST
    for African Americans, the first AA state official elected in Illinois?  Sorry, but I think it might be necessary to catch up on a couple of decades of reading of the historic Chicago Defender to get just how this would read on the streets.

    Let me put it clearly, as my friends there might: African Americans really do not all look alike -- not in the Defender, nor to its readership.

    Parent

    Rush's historonics aside, I somehow (none / 0) (#110)
    by tigercourse on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:50:42 PM EST
    doubt that African Americas are going to be hugely enraged if this guy isn't seated. I don't think many will even know about it.

    Parent
    And if Danny Davis (none / 0) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:53:37 PM EST
    is named on February 1 by Blago's successor, then no one will give Burris a second thought except to think "good riddance."

    Parent
    A historic success story? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:52:30 PM EST
    Um, at this point, Burris comes off a buffoon imo.

    As I said previously, when Danny Davis is named by Pat Quinn on February 1, that will be the end of Burris imo.

    Parent

    Well, I'll be watching the Defender (none / 0) (#133)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    as well as TalkLeft -- and I know which one is read by more African Americans nationwide.  

    And since they were a crucial factor for Obama and Dems, I'm especially interested in seeing how his statement this week on Burris will play with the voters that he and Dems may need again. . . .

    (I ought to note that I already happen to know, from conversation with a friend, how this is going to be reported in my leading local black paper.  But how the Defender sees it sets the tone for the black press nationwide, period.)

    Parent

    Do you honestly believe Obama would (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by tigercourse on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:13:48 PM EST
    lose AA support because he doesn't back Burris? He'd lose maybe 5 votes.

    You know who else is crucial to Dem wins? Gays and women. Democrats aren't worried about pissing those groups off.

    Parent

    Si, se puede. (none / 0) (#148)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:32:06 PM EST
    Yes, he can.  Maybe not enough to matter -- much like the other groups you note, which also matter much to me but not to Obama or Dems, nor are we the point of this post.

    Plus, Obama can't lose my vote, since he didn't get it.  And he certainly has done nothing yet to cause me pause about my decision to leave the top blank for the first time in my life, since my state didn't matter.

    But that he could begin to lose crucial support even before entering office ought to cause some pause.  And then he might need my vote, and yours, and those of many gays, women, etc. . . .

    Parent

    I'd be for that (none / 0) (#166)
    by ruffian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:52:52 PM EST
    if I saw any sign that Blago will be removed anytime soon. But he's not resigning and they aren't showing any speed at impeaching him.  So given the reality as I see it, I think leaving Burris in with minimal fuss is a better way to go than the path Reid has chosen.

    Parent
    Good comment (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:48:20 AM EST
    and good reference to the SCOTUSBlog post.

    I agree with the analysis contained therein.

    Parent

    Good link (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    I would also point to Tushnet and Balkin.

    Parent
    I thik this analysis (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:14:18 PM EST
    is better than Balkin's or Tushnet's to be frank.

    It's a litigator's analysis. Not a professor's.

    Parent

    Well, you're biased :-p (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:17:44 PM EST
    Do any of us really (none / 0) (#3)
    by SOS on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:40:57 AM EST
    know what we are talking about?

    I wonder sometimes.

    Is that a requirement? (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by ruffian on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 11:45:42 AM EST
    I may not have read the terms of use page all the way through.

    BTD seems to have a handle on the law for the Senate appointments.  I mostly just argue about the political strategy of it, and that is a matter of opinion.

    Parent

    Personally, I think Digby and Hamsher (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:06:37 PM EST
    are very much wrong about the politics of this. All you have to do is consider what it would look like if Reid et al agreed to seat Burris from the get go.

    Is either Digby or Hamsher a (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:48:03 PM EST
    lawyer, and, if so, any expertise in constitutional law?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:50:10 PM EST
    Neither is a lawyer.

    But that does not mean they are incapable of legal analysis.

    They sort of chose not to do any in this case.

    Parent

    I am not a lawyer, either (none / 0) (#168)
    by lobary on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:57:07 PM EST
    I don't have a law degree, but I'd like to think I have some basic legal reasoning skills. I got myself stuck in a lengthy back-and-forth on another blog last night on this topic, arguing almost the exact argument you argue here. I was wondering when you'd address this, BTD. Thanks for chiming in.

    Seems to me that many of the lefty blogs and the media took somebody's (Nate Silver, perhaps?) uncritical reading of the Powell case as absolutely correct. Did any of them actually bother to read Powell? IANAL, and I am certainly not smarter than many of the A-list bloggers and media law types, but once I read the case I picked up on the distinctions between Powell and Burris that you referenced in this post. If the Burris appointment is factually distinct, why should anyone be so confident that the Powell case would be controlling?

    The Court in Powell was affirming the notion that the popular will of the people in a legal election could not be invalidated by the House on the qualifications clause. The Court's holding is about what the Constitution means by "judge qualifications" and not what it means to "judge elections and returns."  

    The purpose behind Article I Section 5 is to protect the democratic integrity of Congress. If that clause gives the Senate the authority to refuse to seat a member who won an improper election, surely it applies in situations where an appointment is equally improper. Why would the Court support a view that gives the Senate the authority to exclude in the first instance but not the second? An election could be crooked and the Senate would be able to keep the winner from being seated, but if an appointment was crooked, they'd have to seat first, then exclude? I don't see how that is consistent with the Constitution or Powell.

    Parent

    Not that I'm aware of (none / 0) (#44)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:50:21 PM EST
    That shouldn't keep them from having an opinion, though.

    Parent
    If Blago is not able to govern (none / 0) (#38)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:44:25 PM EST
    then why are they not saying on any of the bills and pardons he has approved since his arrest.  To me that is an argument in his defense.  Either be against me on everything and not just on this appointment or none.

    He is being impeached (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:46:29 PM EST
    I have no understanding of your point here.

    Parent
    The objection is that he cannot govern (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    So all those against the his appointment as being tainted then all his pardons and signed bills since his arrest should also be considered tainted but they are allowing all the pardons and bills to be classified as not tainted and IMO that is a defense for him.  Then Blgos shows I guess I am not as tainted as people think since they show no objections to me signing bills and issuing pardons.

    IMO this case is now just a case of legality to be argued only the merits of whether Burris can be seated or not seated constitutionally.   It is no longer an argument of the morality of this case.  Burris will follow those strict parameters IMO.  Either seat me or don't but you will have to show to the level of what a SC would say if you do not.  

    Parent

    The objection is (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:18:51 PM EST
    he is a criminal.

    Parent
    Not yet (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:28:14 PM EST
    Only until proven that he is.  

    Parent
    Is there a reason TChris and Jeralyn (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:33:07 PM EST
    aren't weighing in on the Governor's appointment of Burris?  I think so.

    Parent
    Jeralyn read the wiretap transcripts (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:34:17 PM EST
    she knows what's what.

    Parent
    I am not a court of law (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:33:47 PM EST
    I am convinced he is a criminal.

    Parent
    Innocent until proven guilty (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:40:22 PM EST
    As a lawyer, no matter how much you hate Blago and I do not like him at all either but you should preach and believe  this sacred doctrine.

    Parent
    I repeat (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:52:44 PM EST
    I am not a court of law.

    Innoncent until proven guilty is a principle for THE STATE, not for me, a citizen.

    I can hold any opinion I wish. I do not have the power to imprison any body.

    Parent

    Balkin addressed that point (none / 0) (#170)
    by lobary on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:06:26 PM EST
    In his post yesterday he addressed the innocent-until-proven-guilty argument.

    Balkin: "But Article I, section 5 does not contemplate a criminal proceeding. Rather, it contemplates that the Senate will be the judge of the circumstances of election (or in this case, after the Seventeenth Amendment, an appointment.)"

    Parent

    What The Senate Dems May Do (none / 0) (#40)
    by daring grace on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:47:04 PM EST
    I know Politico is not held in high esteem around here sometimes, but I find this suggestion of how it might play out in the senate intriguing:

    "Senate officials tell Politico that if presented with the appointment, they are likely to give the Rules Committee 90 days to determine the propriety of the appointment by looking into such issues as whether Blagojevich received anything in return for it.

    "A motion to refer credentials to the committee has the effect of delaying seating," a Senate Democratic aide said. "The motion is debatable and amendable."

    Another official explained: "That buys us 90 days."

    That should be enough so the senators won't have to act to prevent Burris from joining the chamber. Blagojevich's defiance inflamed Illinois legislators, speeding up the impeachment process.

    "He will not be governor by Valentine's Day," the official said.

    This seems plausible to me given the senate Dem majority's recent history: a non confrontational procedural stalling act until other events intervene.

    Probably something like that (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 12:49:12 PM EST
    Then BNlago is impeached and indicted.

    Quinn names Danny Davis or some other distinguished Afircan American from Illinois and all of sudden, Burris disappears.

    Parent

    Burris disappears? Really? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by oldpro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:52:00 PM EST
    Somehow, I just don't think so.

    We will then have two appointees to that Senate seat.

    Someone is gonna want to litigate it and Burris seems far too happy to be in the limelight to say 'no.'  And he wants that seat.

    Wonder what it would take to get him to 'disappear/withdraw?'

    Parent

    Well put. Of course, in Chicago (none / 0) (#180)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:09:07 PM EST
    to be disappeared means something entirely different.  It's also called getting "concrete boots."  So a different verb than "to disappear" Burris might be better in discourse here. :-)

    Parent
    Heh. "Judge Crater, please (none / 0) (#190)
    by oldpro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:03:42 PM EST
    call home!"  Not to mention, Jimmy Hoffa.

    Yeah, I thought of that, too.  I decided to follow the 'disappearing' ball anyway!

    Parent

    What does Blago have on the impeachors (none / 0) (#53)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    Maybe those that are responsible for impeaching are not so clean.  What does Blago have on them?  Maybe it won't be as clear cut that the impeachment process will sail through and the impeachors will have second thoughts.   There might be consequences for those issuing the impeachments politically and maybe possible  investigations. Blago is not going down without a fight.

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:33:12 PM EST
    they are going to impeach him.

    2 weeks have not even passed yet.

    Enough with this silliness.

    Parent

    Interesting constitutional terminology (none / 0) (#60)
    by wurman on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:43:45 PM EST
    US Constitution

    Section V
    Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

    Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.

    Amendment 17
    When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

    By inverse order:
       If the legislature of a state can "empower" the executive to make appointments, can the legislators also "dis-empower" by some process other than impeachment?

       If two-thirds of the US Senate can expel a member, can 99 be sworn in & then 66 of them "pre-emptively expel" a not-yet-member?  Or swear in 100 & then 67 of them expel the tainted Illinois member?

       As the "judge" of the "qualifications," is the Senate exclusively limited to the age, length of citizenship, & residency requirements of the Constitution, or are ANY other factors open to judgement as to qualifying attributes?

    In order (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:51:26 PM EST
    the legislature can of course disempower by passing a law. A special election was proposed but due to lack of funds in these trying times, it was rejected.

    Blago promised not to appoint anyone until his status was cleared up. He lied.

    The Governor of Illinois is empowered by current Illinois law to make the appointment. However, due to Blago's situation, it is my view that the Senate is well within its Constitutional power to question Blago's exercise of said power and is empowered to reject his appointment, pursuant to Article I, Section 5.

    Please note that this is not a challenge to Burris' qualifications (as in Powell) but a challenge to to the manner in which Burris was appointed - to wit, by a Governor subject to criminal complaint, likely indictment and impeachment and removal from office.

    Let me give you a hypothetical - suppose Blago appointed himself to the position. Does anyone doubt the Senate's power to question such an appointment? If not, why not? If so, why then can it not question Burris' appointment?

    Parent

    No Q as to Power to look into appointment (none / 0) (#73)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:11:42 PM EST
    Question:
    Is there any evidence that Burris was one of the 5 senate candidates referred to in the criminal complaint against Blago?  I recall several other names, but not Burris.

    Parent
    Burris had nothing to offer (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:27:57 PM EST
    so presumably he was not even under consideration by Blago.

    The point is Blago taints the process by making the pick.

    to me that is a very compelling argument.

    Parent

    Do you reject the supposition the (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:36:04 PM EST
    IL Legislature did not pass a statute providing for a special election due to Dems. being afraid a Republican might gain the Senate seat?

    Parent
    the other fear (none / 0) (#97)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:41:45 PM EST
    that I have heard reported is that the dems don't think Burris could win re-election.  He's lost several elections in IL already.

    Parent
    I do not know why they did it (none / 0) (#108)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:50:07 PM EST
    But that seems a fair inference.

    Though I think the cost is another fair inference as to why they did not vote for a special election.

    Parent

    Nah, it's about Emil Jones, et al. (none / 0) (#181)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:09:50 PM EST
    But you said Burris is the villain (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:00:46 PM EST
    unquote; see above.

    Parent
    Politically? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:02:16 PM EST
    He is the villain for accepting the Blago appointment.

    In terms of the Senate appraisal of the appointment? blago is the reason why it is unacceptable.

    Parent

    Re "Powell v. McCormack": (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:44:28 PM EST
    Powell was twice elected by his district, and already seated for his second term before SCOTUS filed its decision.  It was Powell who was under suspicion of misuse of his office.  

    Burris was appointed by a Governor who is under suspicion [arrested, subject of a pending criminal complaint] misuse of his office as to the Senate seat to which he appointed Burris.

    But, SCOTUS opinion rejects respondents' argument for broad interpretation of the Constitutional provision at issue.  And SCOTUS concludes the matter is not a "political question" depriving the Court of jurisdiction.  

    Why such confidence the Powell decision is inapplicable to Blago/Burris appointment?

    There's what--four hours before the Rose Bowl starts.  Plenty of time here.

    I do not follow your thinking here (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:46:12 PM EST
    Could you explain again. I assume you are arguing Powell controls. I do not follow your argument for why you think so.

    Parent
    Well, I just read the opinion before (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:52:48 PM EST
    posting my comment.  Was rather surprised many are confident Powell is inapplicable here.  SCOTUS limited the House to judging Powell's qualifications as described in Article 5. Wouldn't the Senate, in refusing to seat Burris, be applying broader powers under Article 5 than SCOTUS recognized in Powell?  Plus, SCOTUS precedent in Powell and the precedent relied on by that Court holds SCOTUS has the power to determine what powers the Constitution gives the Senate re barring a Senator from being seated.

    Parent
    Then you misread Powell (none / 0) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 01:55:47 PM EST
    imo.

    I refer you to the SCOTUSBlog analysis I link in my post.

    Parent

    Purportedly strict constructionist (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:14:33 PM EST
    majority on the U.S. Supreme Court, except when they aren't.  Nothing in Article 5 about appoinments.   I guess we'll see.

    Parent
    that misses the point in my opinion (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:26:47 PM EST
    Article Section 5 provides:

    "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members . . "

    Article 1, Section 3 describes the qualifications. Powell met those qualifications and was found to do so prior to the House's determination that he did not. The Powell opinion said that the House's reinterpretation of its previous findings was improper.

    Here, the Senate is questioning  the "returns" (i.e. Blago's appointment of Burris). The counter-argument is the 17th Amendment but to me it is unavailing. The question the Senate is raising is NOT that a Governor is appointing a replacement, but rather a Governor, subject to a criminal complaint for attempting to SELL the seat is making said appointment.

    The issue is Blago himself.

    Now, I personally think the Powell case was wrongly decided, FWIW. I do not think the Court had jurisdiction to decide the issue. But assuming it was correct, the principle of protecting the franchise was critical to the decision - Powell was duly elected. Here that principle is not in play. Burris was not elected.

    The weakness of Burris' case will increase when Blago is impeached and removed from office. Then the present Lt. Governor (Quinn) will name a replacement (likely an African American like Danny Davis) that the Senate will seat.

    At that point, Burris' political argument is basically nil and his legal arguments lose whatever urgency they may have had.

    All this should happen by the beginning of February.

    Burris can continue his suit one supposes and sometime in 2010 he may even prevail. And then he can be a Senator for a few months. and then go away forever.

    I suspect it will not come to that.  
     

    Parent

    Or maybe, like Powell, Burris will (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:31:38 PM EST
    receive back pay after his limited appointment has already expired.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:34:37 PM EST
    Bit of a stretch interpreting "returns" (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:32:29 PM EST
    to include appointments.  

    Parent
    this article (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:36:28 PM EST
    on the mess has been among my favorites so far:

    Slate

    Following English parliamentary tradition and early Colonial and state practice, the framers made the Senate its own gatekeeper and guardian. Each house of Congress is "the Judge of the Elections, Returns, and Qualifications of its own members," according to Article 1, Section 5 of the Constitution. At the founding, Senators were elected by state legislatures. If the Senate believed that legislators in a given state had been bribed into voting for a particular candidate, the Senate could refuse to seat him.

    Because of the word "returns" in Section 5, what is true of elected Senators is equally true of appointed Senators. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a "Return" in the time of the framers involved a report of an appointment made by a sheriff or other official. If the Senate may refuse to seat a person picked in a corrupt election, it likewise may refuse to seat a person picked in a corrupt appointment process. (Alternatively, we might think of an appointment as an "election" by one voter.)



    Parent
    The "Powell" Court (none / 0) (#89)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:37:52 PM EST
    did not find this argument persuasive.

    Parent
    The Powell court did not have that argument (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:48:16 PM EST
    before it.

    Parent
    Not as to the meaning of "returns." (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:50:47 PM EST
    My comment was directed to the Court's interpreting "qualifications."  Court rejected argument as to British common law, intent of framers, etc.

    Parent
    I accept that (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:00:48 PM EST
    the Powell court says the Constitution defines the qualifications, via Article 1, Section 3.

    the Powell court did NOT decide how to judge "returns."


    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#91)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:39:07 PM EST
    I my quick reading, I did not gather that the "returns" were in question under Powell.

    Parent
    from (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:44:48 PM EST
    the Slate article...

    Thus, if the Senate were to plausibly decide in good faith that a candidate failed to meet the Constitution's age requirement, Powell nowhere suggests that this senatorial determination should be set aside by ordinary federal courts. For similar reasons, federal courts should not interfere when the Senate plausibly and in good faith decides an election or return to be improper or corrupt. The critical point here is that the Constitution itself sets up the Senate as the highest court of Senate elections.

    I find this interesting and well-written as well (from the same article):

    What are the counterarguments in favor of seating Burris? Both he and Blagojevich say that the Senate should not hold the governor's sins against his would-be senator. To be sure, there is no evidence Burris bribed the governor to get this seat. But imagine if Burris had won election only because other candidates were wrongly and corruptly kept off the ballot. Surely the Senate could properly deem this an invalid election. Similarly, it now seems apparent that there were candidates that Blagojevich refused to consider for improper reasons--because one refused to "pay to play" early on, or because another is at the center of the impending criminal case against the governor. With the appointments process so inherently and irremediably tainted, the Senate may properly decide that nothing good can come from a Blagojevich appointment.


    Parent
    Right (none / 0) (#105)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:48:36 PM EST
    Intent of the framers, English (none / 0) (#104)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:48:27 PM EST
    common law, and even arguments after the Constitution was adopted were all put forth by respondents in "Powell" to support the proposition the House had broader powers than specified in Article 5 re "qualifications."  SCOTUS sd. no it didn't.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:34:20 PM EST
    I think is is the only possible way to interpret it.

    Unless you are interpreting appointments to be beyond Article 1, Section 5.

    that would be beyond a stretch imo.  

    Parent

    It would imply that Blago could appoint a person (none / 0) (#87)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:36:59 PM EST
    who actually bought the seat, and the Senate would have to seat that person.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, GOP may refuse to (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:39:24 PM EST
    seat Franken, per Huff Post.  

    Parent
    That could turn into a nasty fight (none / 0) (#98)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:42:14 PM EST
    Honestly, I don't expect them to do that, because once they go nuclear, each side begins challenging the other's elections.

    Parent
    although that still makes more sense (none / 0) (#100)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:46:27 PM EST
    than EXPELLING LIEBERMAN...

    I'm telling you, the blogs are not looking good on this.

    Parent

    they do not have the votes to do it (none / 0) (#102)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:47:25 PM EST
    That said, I do not think Franken should be seated until the election contest is complete.

    Parent
    Senate has explicit power to expel (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:40:05 PM EST
    after seating a Senator.

    Parent
    Why should they have to seat in the first place? (none / 0) (#96)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:41:13 PM EST
    They do not have to (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:49:04 PM EST
    I doubt the Supreme Court will say they have to either.

    Parent
    Waiting for L. Tribe. (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:37:11 PM EST
    Burris Petions IL SC to force Whites hand (none / 0) (#71)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:06:50 PM EST
    Here is link

    Not decisive (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:09:59 PM EST
    either way.

    Parent
    The Senate looses the time factor (none / 0) (#78)
    by Saul on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:29:31 PM EST
    they wanted to get if White has to sign it is what I understand.

    Parent
    Not really (none / 0) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:35:26 PM EST
    Referral to a committee is the likely action they will take in any event.

    Parent
    After which the Senate can sit on it (none / 0) (#90)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:38:05 PM EST
    until Blago is impeached or the Supreme Court forces them to do otherwise.

    Parent
    90 days should about do it (none / 0) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:56:06 PM EST
    then Blago is gone (by the end of January at the latest), Quinn is in and names someone like Danny Davis and then Burris can be rejected and Davis seated.

    Then Burris can sue if he likes but no one will care and if he wins in 2010, he can displace Davis.

    What will Bobby Rush say then?

    Parent

    Bobby Rush has embarrassed himself this week. (none / 0) (#118)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:57:02 PM EST
    ugh (none / 0) (#130)
    by Nasarius on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:07:01 PM EST
    As if Burris didn't look bad enough already in this mess...

    Parent
    While I respect you absolutely (none / 0) (#107)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:49:17 PM EST
    I think you have conflated two separate things here, Armando.  One is whether the Senate accepts Burris's appointment, which is a legal matter.  The second is whether the Democratic Caucus accepts him as a member, which is a political matter.

    I'm not sure what kind of control the Senate has over the former -- that remains to be seen, but I haven't seen anything compelling that makes me think they can legally exclude him.

    My point about Lieberman had to do with his acceptance into the Caucus, which is the only thing the Democrats have absolute control over.  If it is determined that Burris has been legally appointed, I'm not sure how they justify accepting Lieberman and excluding Burris.

    I corrected my post (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:07:40 PM EST
    Thanks for clarifying this for me.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#114)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:52:03 PM EST
    One is whether the Senate accepts Burris's appointment, which is a legal matter.  The second is whether the Democratic Caucus accepts him as a member, which is a political matter.
    They are both political. Too many people are too quickly conceding point 1.

    As to this:

    My point about Lieberman had to do with his acceptance into the Caucus, which is the only thing the Democrats have absolute control over.  If it is determined that Burris has been legally appointed, I'm not sure how they justify accepting Lieberman and excluding Burris.

    Lieberman is, so far as I am aware, not criminally tainted. Burris is.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#126)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:03:13 PM EST
    Burris is not "criminally tainted," and nobody -- not even Harry Reid -- is suggesting he is.

    Lieberman, on the other hand, is absolutely negligent in performing his duties as head of the Homeland Security Committee.

    http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/10/the-case-against-lieberman/

    Parent

    The criminal taint comes from Blago (none / 0) (#128)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:05:41 PM EST
    for the purposes of this appointment, the two are indistinguishable.

    As to Lieberman, well. The Democratic caucus decided differently.

    Parent

    Site-accepted linkage here: (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:06:45 PM EST
    The process is tainted (none / 0) (#131)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:07:27 PM EST
    Burris is not tainted, but it has been suggested the process is -

    "Anyone appointed by Gov. Blagojevich cannot be an effective representative of the people of Illinois and, as we have said, will not be seated by the Democratic Caucus," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said in a statement.

    It is my understanding that they made this clear before the appointment of Burris.

    Parent

    Isn't that putting (none / 0) (#120)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:58:06 PM EST
    the cart before the horse?  I don't think the Caucus should reject Burris if he is determined to be legally appointed.  But the determination as to whether the appointment was legit is where the battle is now.  The Senate indeed has complete control over the former - they are empowered to judge whether the process was corrupt.  To me it seems like they have the advantage now - unless SCOTUS steps in and says they cannot, they can & will exclude Burris.

    The post you quote by The Christian Progressive Liberal refers to Lieberman actually keeping his SEAT - not his place in the caucus.  Unless I am reading it wrong.  And comparing Lieberman being seated and Burris being seated makes no sense to me.

    Parent

    Nope, wrong (none / 0) (#134)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:07:53 PM EST
    http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/senate_dems_to_blago_call_off.php

    We say this without prejudice toward Roland Burris's ability, and we respect his years of public service. But this is not about Mr. Burris; it is about the integrity of a governor accused of attempting to sell this United States Senate seat. Under these circumstances, anyone appointed by Gov. Blagojevich cannot be an effective representative of the people of Illinois and, as we have said, will not be seated by the Democratic Caucus.


    Parent
    Depends on whether you think Reid (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:11:22 PM EST
    was talking about being seated in the Senate as a whole or not. One is not "seated" in the caucus. One joins the caucus after being seated in the Senate.

    Parent
    The Democrats have no power (none / 0) (#142)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:18:17 PM EST
    to say who will be seated in the Senate, they only have power over who will be seated in the Caucus, so they were explicitly talking about seating Burris in the Democratic Caucus.

    Reid has said in other places they will attempt to keep him from being seated through a variety of means, but he has made no representation that they have that power.

    So no, there is only one interpretation.

    Parent

    Um, (none / 0) (#143)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:21:19 PM EST
    The Democrats have no power to say who will be seated in the Senate
    This is false.

    So is this:

    Reid has said in other places they will attempt to keep him from being seated through a variety of means, but he has made no representation that they have that power.

    So no, there is only one interpretation.

    Why on earth would they reference their constitutional power if they didn't mean to keep him out of the Senate as a whole? Sorry, but you're just not making any sense.


    Parent
    Well then (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:24:36 PM EST
    You can clear it all up by providing the link where Harry Reid says that the Democrats have the power to keep Burris out of the Senate altogether.

    I'm sure we'd all be very interested in seeing that.

    Parent

    The present Dem caucus (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:33:45 PM EST
    48 Dem Senators and 2 independents - forms a simple majority of 50 over 99.  The Majority Party can make these decisions by themselves.

    again, Slate:

    A simple majority of the Senate would suffice to exclude Burris. Majority rule is the general default principle established by the Constitution, except where text, structure, or tradition indicates otherwise. When the Senate tries to expel a member who has already been seated, the rule is two-thirds (as it is when the Senate sits as an impeachment court). But the framers clearly understood that majority rule would apply when the Senate was judging the accuracy and fairness of elections or appointments.

    Reid's Dec 10 letter signed by the caucus refers to their authority:

    Please understand that should you decide to ignore the request of the Senate Democratic Caucus and make an appointment we would be forced to exercise our Constitutional authority under Article I, Section 5, to determine whether such a person should be seated.

    He is referring here clearly to the authority of the Senate granted by the Constitution.  Not caucus issues.  

    Parent

    Refer back to his letter to Blago: (none / 0) (#147)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:30:39 PM EST
    here:
    "Please understand that should you decide to ignore the request of the Senate Democratic Caucus and make an appointment we would be forced to exercise our
    Constitutional authority under Article I, Section 5, to determine whether such a person should be seated," wrote Reid


    Parent
    Again, two separate things (none / 0) (#158)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:50:26 PM EST
    The Democratic Caucus made a request of Blago. But they are not the ones who have Constitutional authority -- if you'll recall, there was no Democratic Caucus when the Constitution was drafted.

    That refers to the entire Senate.


    Parent

    You're being pedantic in order to ignore (none / 0) (#160)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:53:43 PM EST
    the clear meaning of Reid's letter and statement. The Democratic caucus, through its numbers, has the authority to exercise constitutional power in the Senate.

    You're in a tizzy about an issue that precisely no one is actually discussing: Burris's membership (or not) in the Senate Democratic caucus.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#162)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:05:03 PM EST
    The Dems do not need the Republicans on this.  They do need the Independent members of their caucus.  

    The Dem caucus holds the power here.

    That they haven't dragged the GOP into this discussion is kind of interesting.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#174)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:36:36 PM EST
    Reid could very well be speaking in munchkin code about secret handshakes and the rapture plans of the Lollypop kids too, but if he means what you say, then why isn't he doing anything about it?

    The fact is that Reid is not going to bring it to the "simple majority vote," he's punting to a Senate committee and running out the clock, hoping that Blago gets indicted before the court forces him to seat Burris.

    See -- oh, just about any article written on the subject today.  

    You can infer whatever meaning you like from Reid's words, but the fact that they're not doing any of it is a pretty persuasive argument that you're deriving meaning that they simply do not intend.


    Parent

    Explain to me why he cited (none / 0) (#177)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:45:42 PM EST
    the constitution in his letter from the Democratic caucus?

    You might as well be claiming that he's talking about Oz, because your interpretation makes no sense whatsoever.

    Parent

    Waiting on Quinn (none / 0) (#182)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:16:49 PM EST
    by kicking the Burris case to committee for investigation is just the easier option.  The Chicago Tribune:

    That's why the safest route may be for the Senate to wait to see if Blagojevich is impeached and removed. Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn would then make his own appointment, and the Senate would simply choose between two people with competing claims for the post, something it has done in the distant past.

    "I like it," Hasen said. "It's a much safer option than the Senate simply voting to exclude."

    Walker agreed: "As a practical matter, it could probably be done in a way that would work. It certainly would be subject to challenge. But if they could provide a reasonable and articulate explanation for making that choice, it would probably survive a challenge."

    This seems easier on a practical level than simply not seating Burris.  It apparently spares a protracted legal battle over whether the Senate has the power not to seat Burris.  A power which Reid, judging by his Dec 10 letter, nonetheless believes the Senate has.

    The third option, vote to exclude by 2/3rds, is the worst option.  That could incite a legal battle as well.  

    Does it surprise anyone that Reid would want to go the easy route?  And not fully exercise the power of the Senate?

    Parent

    "will not be seated by the Dem Caucus" (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:09:03 PM EST
    You're misreading this, imo. The Dem Caucus are speaking for themselves, saying what they will do, i.e., not accept his seating, differentiating themselves from Republicans in the Senate, who will then be in the position of accepting this tainted appointment, presumably, all on their own.

    They're not talking about not seating him within the Democratic Caucus, they're simply stating the position of the Democratic Caucus on his seating - they're against it.

    Parent

    I think that can be understood (none / 0) (#138)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:13:33 PM EST
    two ways - Slate:

    A simple majority of the Senate would suffice to exclude Burris. Majority rule is the general default principle established by the Constitution, except where text, structure, or tradition indicates otherwise.

    The Democratic Caucus can get together and agree that his appointment is tainted.  They form a simple majority now.  

    But if Reid's contention is that, even if SCOTUS says they must seat him, they will exclude him from the Dem Caucus as some kind of humiliation, well I think that is stupid.  

    Parent

    Also (none / 0) (#146)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:29:34 PM EST
    If you follow the link on the Jack & Jill quote, it refers to Lieberman keeping his Chairmanship -- she was explicitly talking about the decision of the Caucus.

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:46:10 PM EST
    maybe this is just poor wording -

    Yet, Harry Reid, as well as the President-Elect, needs to explain why Traitor Joe Lieberman was allowed to keep his Senate seat,

    but I think it says otherwise.  Lieberman's seat is his regardless of whether he is permitted to caucus with Dems.

    Parent

    Follow the link (none / 0) (#159)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:51:12 PM EST
    That's why she took the trouble to put it in.

    Parent
    I misunderstood then (none / 0) (#121)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 02:58:48 PM EST
    Your citation to the Jack and Jill post cited the language of why Lieberman was not expelled from the Senate.

    On point 1, I think the Senate has a very strong argument for not seating Burris due to the tainted process (Blago is the taint.)

    On point 2, I assume it will not come to that. But if your objection is to not seating him in the Caucus, I still do not agree with you on the politics. Any connection to Blago should be avoided at all costs.

    Parent

    That's the whole point (none / 0) (#135)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:09:08 PM EST
    It has come to that -- see above, they have rejected him from the caucus already.

    Parent
    It is an interesting discussion (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:12:05 PM EST
    I may try the political argument on that in a later post.

    In the meantime, I corrected this post to reflect your view of the matter, which I misstated.

    Again, I apologize for my error.

    Parent

    Thanks, Armando (none / 0) (#139)
    by Jane Hamsher on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 03:13:48 PM EST
    It does get confusing, because they are trying to keep him from being seated in the Senate at the same time they have already excluded him from the Caucus.

    Parent
    digby (none / 0) (#199)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:30:15 PM EST
    quotes Durbin on NewsHour Dec 30:

    Dick Durbin: (video) ...What we saw today was an act of political defiance despite the fact that the Democratic caucus has stated clearly that they will not seat his choice for that position.

    The battle is whether Burris is seated, not whether he is accepted into the caucus.

    Parent

    Black America's Views (none / 0) (#165)
    by Amaliada on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 04:50:56 PM EST
    seem to have been totally neglected in this post and the comment threads above, with the exception of the Jack and Jill snippet.  This is all over Black talk radio, which can be like all other talk radio in ginning up positions and false equivalences, whether real or imagined.

    While I, as an African American woman, think Burris is an incredible opportunist, you can bet the idea of not seating him in the US Senate is not playing well in Black America.

    America is not in a post-racial (or post-partisan) phase yet - no matter how we may wish it to be so.

    Burris has been appointed to the seat.  It really is a done deal and all the rest will just be drama; get some popcorn and watch the movie.

    It is, to my thinking, much like the Coleman-Franken race.  Franken has won; Coleman wants to muddy the waters in the hopes that time (or some other miracle) will allow him to retain his seat.

    It is done.  And there is lots of other work to do.  I'm really disappointed that Obama stepped into this.  No drama Obama seems to have forgotten his mantra.

    Interesting viewpoint. Thanks. (none / 0) (#175)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:38:43 PM EST
    I was surprised, given Obama was in Hawaii w/his family is no longer a Senator from Illinois, that he made any statement at all on Blago's appointment of Burris.  

    Parent
    Thank you. I read the Defender (none / 0) (#183)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:16:57 PM EST
    regularly, worked in the black press and in the community (although I'm not of color), and have tried to make these points, too (see comments above) -- but you did it better, of course.  

    I haven't heard black radio on this issue but would have bet on exactly the response that you describe.  Legalities are the topic here, but realities always prevail in politics.  The Dems and Obama have not handled this well, as they will see in the black press and radio if they continue.

    And so, I think the pols may not continue to push this.  But then, Dems in Congress have baffled me before.

    Parent

    This certainly warrants more discussion (none / 0) (#172)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:28:10 PM EST
    I don't understand what Lemieux means when he writes:

    But since I haven't seen it much, I feel compelled to point out that missed in many discussions about the Burris appointment is the fact that the Senate is probably unable to prevent him from being seated as a matter of constitutional law. The Supreme Court ruled 8-1 (and 8-0 among justices deciding on the merits) in Powell v. McCormack that "in judging the qualifications of its members, Congress is limited to the standing qualifications prescribed in the Constitution." It is possible to distinguish the cases -- the fact that Burris is appointed obviously mitigates the problems with Congress interfering with the integrity of elections that Douglas discusses in his concurrence. Still, the bottom line of Warren's majority opinion is unequivocal and directly on point; if Burris were to litigate an exclusion a lower court would almost certainly rule in his favor, and I doubt that the Supreme Court would overrule. The Senate could expel him after seating with a 2/3 majority, but (absent strong evidence that Burris obtained the appointment illegitimately) this seems unlikely. Reid's remedy is likely to be to prevent him from joining the Democratic caucus.

    Setting aside all the statements Reid has made thus far...what would be the point of excluding Burris, presuming he is seated, from the Dem caucus?  If Burris IS seated, he should caucus with the Dems.

    I personally think the Senate is within its rights to refuse to seat Burris.  I find the Slate analysis L(h/t txpublicdefender) convincing.

    But the politics of this is beginning to wear me out.  

    How about this - Quinn pledges to appoint Burris after Blago is impeached.  

    Maybe it's too early for Quinn to make promises, but I think that's one way to stop this sh*tshow.

    Lemieux (none / 0) (#178)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 05:56:47 PM EST
    did not really read the case clearly.

    We've seen a lot of that lately.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#184)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:26:24 PM EST
    it looks like the Senate Rules Committee is going to take up the Burris case.  So he will be seat-less for a while.

    I am curious as to what this is all about - "That's why the safest route may be for the Senate to wait to see if Blagojevich is impeached and removed. Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn would then make his own appointment, and the Senate would simply choose between two people with competing claims for the post, something it has done in the distant past."

    Can anyone tell me more about any instances of the Senate making this kind of decision?

    Parent

    During the Civil War. (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:55:50 PM EST
    See Powell v. McCormack.

    Parent
    More recently (none / 0) (#194)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:17:48 PM EST
    1947. The seating of Senator Bilbo of Mississippi.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, (none / 0) (#179)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:03:58 PM EST
    Sandy Levinson seems to be arguing that even though the Dems can refuse to seat, they shouldn't. The accusations against Blago aren't serious enough, or something? Whatever's being argued, I don't buy it.

    He says (none / 0) (#187)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:54:44 PM EST
    I suppose it's true that the Senate could/should consider the bona fides of a gubernatorial appointment if there is good evidence that it was procured by criminal means, including bribery. The problem is that there is not a scintilla of such evidence in this case. Governor B. might well be guilty of "attempted sale of the Senate seat," but it's clear that it didn't work

    But the point is there IS more than a scintilla of evidence that attempted sale of the Senate seat corrupted the process - not on Burris' side but on Blago's, hence supporting the Senate's prerogative to refuse to seat him on that basis.

    The appointment of Lisa Murkowski may have been "shameful" but it wasn't criminal. His argument is unconvincing that this will open the door to future "good-government" scrutiny, though no doubt mischief-making Goopers will try. I find the argument in the Slate article, on the other hand, quite convincing.

    Parent

    digby has replied to you BTD (none / 0) (#185)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:41:46 PM EST
    here

    I still think she is wrong:

    Obviously, people differ on the correct interpretations of the law and constitution on this issue. It's not like there are a lot of precedents. But when it comes to things like this, I always look to the underlying principles, which it seems to me are obvious: when it comes to removing duly elected representatives from office, we should proceed very, very carefully and try not to make new law whenever possible. The last thing you want to do is give politicians more tools with which to usurp the democratic process. Even though this applies to an appointment there is no reason to allow the senate a new "right" to reject members, for any reason.

    Like it or not, the Constitution speaks to the Senate's right to judge "returns."  It's in the Constitution.  There's nothing new about it.

    Indeed, she is wrong (none / 0) (#186)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:43:48 PM EST
    This is not an open and shut case.

    Parent
    Now I kind of want this (none / 0) (#191)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:04:56 PM EST
    to progress through the courts.  Abner Green in digby's post says:

    "The argument in his favor is that the constitution also gives the senate the power to judge the elections and returns of its members. That would clearly apply in cases where an election was corrupted or tainted or a contested election. The question is whether they can apply that language, elections and returns, to a case of an appointment under the 17th amendment. Remember the constitution was written in 1787 and the 17th amendment came about in the early 20th century and so what they're trying to do is connect up their power to judge elections and returns to their power to judge an appointment in this situation."  [emphasis mine]

    That seems like a fair question.  Not that Blago-type cases happen very often.

    then later

    Suarez: This has to do with the only vote that matters, which in Illinois is the vote of Governor Rod Blagojevich. If the senate looks across the landscape and sees that Illinois law was followed, does it have any precedent for not seating a member?

    Green: I don't think so. They have to make this creative argument to extend their power to judge election and returns to a power to judge appointments. I think what they should do is let Patrick Fitzgerald and the Illinois legislature pursue Rod Blagojevich. And if they believe Burris himself is untainted then they should seat Burris.

    Creative argument?  It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for the Senate to see if its power to judge returns extends to the power to judge appointments.

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    Agreed (none / 0) (#193)
    by andgarden on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:16:24 PM EST
    Professor Greene sets up the two possibilities pretty well, I think, but he's wrong in his conclusion. The strict reading that he and many others want would require for the Senate to seat and then expel the hypothetical appointee who actually bought the seat. It's mad.

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    I think (none / 0) (#198)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:26:00 PM EST
    it's interesting.  And if I may be touchy, I don't appreciate attempts to marginalize those who believe the Senate has a right not to seat Burris as being "very creative" or outside the mainstream.  How is there even a "mainstream" when it comes to this question yet?  The Huffpo article digby links to is just one unnamed legal professor and Ken Gross.  Two people.  I can name at least four people who think the Senate has the right not to seat Burris.  


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    Plain meaning of "returns" (none / 0) (#189)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 06:57:57 PM EST
    to me is returns from an election, not an appointment by a state governor.  But, we'll see.

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    Returns (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:17:50 PM EST
    The constitutional language predates the practice of state elections for Senators. So the 'plain meaning' of the word 'returns' in the constitution is clearly different from the one you are insisting on since Senators were not elected prior to 1913.

    Formerly, state legislatures appointed the U.S. Senators from their respective states until the ratification of the 17th Amendment in 1913 required the direct election of Senators by a state's voters.

    Wiki

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    I'm not "insisting on" anything. (none / 0) (#197)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:23:26 PM EST
    The whole issue is a miasma.

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    True Some Things are Murky (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:31:00 PM EST
    But not the meaning of the term 'returns'.  

    I do not see how you can argue that returns mean elections when there were no elections when the term was written into the constitution by the framers.

    It clearly includes all legal manner of returning a selection of Senator, be it by statewide election or appointment.

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    Doesn't "clearly mean" anything (none / 0) (#202)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:33:42 PM EST
    at present, unless there is U.S. Supreme Court precedent.  I'd look, but no longer have access to annotations on line.

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    why the distinction (none / 0) (#192)
    by lilburro on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:11:26 PM EST
    between "Elections" and "Returns" though?  

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    Good catch. No answer. (none / 0) (#203)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 01, 2009 at 07:35:36 PM EST
    Scalia probably knows.

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