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Election Advice From Michael Moore

Here's the problem:

Beginning with their stunning inability to defeat the most detested politician in American history, Richard Nixon, and continuing through their stunning inability to defeat the most detested politician in the world, George II, the Democrats are the masters of blowing it. And they don't just simply "blow it" - they blow it especially when the electorate seems desperate to give it to them.

In his new book, Mike's Election Guide 2008, Michael Moore explains what Barack Obama can to do to lose the presidency again. The extract published here ends with these words:

We can't take four more years of this madness. We need you to be a candidate who will fight back every time they attack you. Actually, don't even wait till you have to fight back. Fight first! Show some vision and courage and smoke them out. Take the offensive. Keep asking why these lobbyists are McCain's best friends. Let's finally have a Democrat who's got the balls to fire first.

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    In what way is Obama different than (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by MarkL on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:01:24 PM EST
    other different Democratic candidates in how he campaigns against a Republican? He is a deferential wimp against McCain, compared to the way he slimed Hillary.
    Kerry had the same problem.

    Looks like Mike (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by Left of center on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:20:06 PM EST
    thinks Obama is something that he isn't, a highly skilled proven winner who knows what he's doing. The Clinton's on the other hand, are proven winners who know exactly what they're doing. Unfortunately, they got broadsided by some unexpected race baiting.


    The irony of course... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Salo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:39:16 PM EST
    ...will be this Georgia thing. "I want a Democrat who fires 'first'" says Mike Moore.  "Well on second thoughts, maybe not." Mike corrected himself.

    Parent
    Nixon won fair and square (none / 0) (#26)
    by Prabhata on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:58:27 PM EST
    The wiretapping did not help his campaign.  Nixon was just a paranoid who did not want to take a chance.  Nope, the Democrats gave Nixon his win in 72 with the weakest candidate, McGovern and a very divided Democratic Party (Many Democratic leaders were not even able to attend the convention because they were not delegates).  In fact, it was a divided Democratic Party that gave his victory to Nixon in 68 with HHH.  That's when the Chicago convention went to hell as the demonstrators were being abused by Mayor Daily and the demonstrators chanted "The world is watching".

    Parent
    This Moore's version of The Nation letter (none / 0) (#47)
    by Valhalla on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 10:14:09 AM EST
    Because it's Moore, the begging and pleading isn't quite as abject or embedded in pathos, but same song, different verse.

    Parent
    and of course no land wars in Asia please. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Salo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:36:13 PM EST
    Asia is  like a bath tub filled with barbed wire. painful to get into impossible to extricate from.

    As Russia is finding out.

    Very strange line here: (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:38:54 PM EST
    Beginning with their stunning inability to defeat the most detested politician in American history, Richard Nixon

    Apparently, Moore is not much of a student of history. Nixon won in '68 because he promised to end the Vietnam War -- a failure of the previous Democratic administration. He won again in '72 partly due to inside information gained from a little thing called the wiretapping of the DNC and a hotel with a famous bakery called The Watergate.

    And after Moore's vileness towards Clinton during the primaries he doesn't have much credibility anymore.

    Oh, he was detested n the 50s. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Salo on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:41:14 PM EST
    Ike couldn't trust the bugger as far as Uncle Sam could throw him.

    Parent
    All of that is true (none / 0) (#12)
    by shoephone on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:45:27 PM EST
    But there was no way Humphrey was going to be able to beat Nixon in '68. Not no way, not no how.

    Parent
    No way? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Jake Left on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:23:28 PM EST
    I was there. Were you? It was a very close election. Your political map is skewed.

    Parent
    No way? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Steve M on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:48:04 PM EST
    He lost the popular vote by 0.7%!  Be serious.

    Parent
    if it wasn't so pitiful it would be funny to me (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by athyrio on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:04:55 PM EST
    because he was too dense to see who the real democratic fighter was and still is. IMO Obama couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag....

    No attacking, please, he's a uniter (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by Prabhata on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:33:09 PM EST
    Whining about being attacked is the MO for BO.  It worked with Hillary, and he thinks it will work with McCain.

    Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by stevenb on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:36:40 PM EST
    Maybe the Democrats should have chosen Hillary Clinton, because if we hold Moore's standard to the nominee (based on his last paragraph), my money is still on Hillary to have been the better choice.

    Thanks, Mike (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by Blue Jean on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:39:15 PM EST
    Of course, we wouldn't have had to put up with Shrub for the past 8 years if you (among others) hadn't been busy campaigning for Nader in Florida in 2000, instead of the Democratic nominee Gore.  

    Seriously, having MM speak about Democratic party unity is like having Benedict Arnold speak about loyalty to the United States.

    Best comment of the night (none / 0) (#32)
    by Cream City on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:46:27 AM EST
    and it has been quite a night.

    Thanks for that last sentence, Blue Jean!

    Parent

    *Blushes* (none / 0) (#50)
    by Blue Jean on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:12:06 AM EST
    Thanks, Cream City!  You made my night.

    Parent
    nice...agreed (none / 0) (#61)
    by LatinoDC on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    Seems really simplistic (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by rjarnold on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:01:46 AM EST
    since he omits many things, like how the media focuses on trivial topics and misleads voters on important issues.  

    It also seems self-serving (since he implies that denouncing him is one of the dumbest things Dems can do) and I don't think most Americans would really favor single-payer health care like he says. And people care more about the gas prices than they do about the environment.


    lincoln would have fared (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by cpinva on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:51:44 AM EST
    very well today, being the consummate politician that he was.

    How would Lincoln have fared today?

    frankly, he'd rip both mccain and obama new ones, either in debate or solo speeches, he was just that good. as well, he'd make an excellent administrator.

    actually, mr. moore, in his own way, is on to something: the people actually have no interest in non or bi-partisan politics. if it were true, they'd always elect exactly the same kind of people to office, and there wouldn't be any such thing as different parties. why bother, the two are mutually exclusive, by definition.

    this is the point that sen. clinton made very well, and sen. obama either doesn't get, or chooses to ignore. it will be (among many other things) what does him in in nov., should the SD's not arise from their slumber by convention time, and he is the dem. nominee.

    Moore (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 06:20:28 AM EST
    Maybe he didn't express it in a way that everyone agrees with, but his point is true. Democrat's have allowed the Republican's to define the issues for years. No matter how right wing an opinion is, the Republican's call it the center, and the Dem's follow along.  I can't remember the last time I saw them take a united stand on an issue. With 70% of the country against the war, the Dem's still managed to lose the argument!

    Unfortunately with Obama's unity theme, strong decisive leadership doesn't appear to be an option. I expect another 4 years of Democrat's cowering in the corners of the Capital.

    Mike's backing the wrong (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by lizpolaris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 08:07:35 AM EST
    primary candidate if he really, truly wanted this:
    Show some vision and courage and smoke them out. Take the offensive. Keep asking why these lobbyists are McCain's best friends. Let's finally have a Democrat who's got the balls to fire first.

    That would be Hillary in spades, whom Mike detests for no good reason.  He's got CDS.

    see comment 33 (none / 0) (#43)
    by TChris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:22:39 AM EST
    Tchris,thanks (none / 0) (#49)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:10:01 AM EST
    I was unhappy when MM chose to endorse Obama, for all the obvious reasons, most of 'em stated above -- but he's not evil, stupid, or reckless.

    The guy has been out in front of so many issues.  He's been a target of the right for a long, long time.  He made a mistake in 2000 which  haunts him to this day.  

    My sister works with him on community theatre projects in northern Michigan; there are times when people just hang out talking during shows . . . backstage, she got up the nerve one night and asked about Nader.  He told her he regrets it more than anything he's ever done, and I have no reason to disbelieve him.  Being fair, how many of us could have predicted in the summer of 2000 the ultimate disaster that Bush has turned out to be?  

    Guess what?  If there's no room in the Big Tent for him, it's turning out to be a very exclusive little tent after all.

    Parent

    Hey, I loved MM's movies (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by lizpolaris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:06:59 PM EST
    and his willingness to take on corporate interests.  I've just been mystified by trying to figure out what led him to the position on the Dem primary candidates he has espoused.  My question to him in email was - where's Mike and what have you done with him?  Seems like critical thinking went AWOL with him during the primary and it was truly surprising to me.  If he had outlined some logical argument which led to his decision, I would have thought - ok, we just disagree.  Instead, his posts just reeked of CDS.  So I thought - well another good mind lost in the glare.  Too bad.

    Parent
    But he endorsed and promulgated lies (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:12:21 PM EST
    about Clinton, and added his own twisted stamp to the lie that the Clintons were using racist tactics, while Obama was being saintly and above the fray.

    Read this and then tell me why I should listen to anything Michael Moore says?


    Finally, I want to say a word about the basic decency I have seen in Mr. Obama. Mrs. Clinton continues to throw the Rev. Wright up in his face as part of her mission to keep stoking the fears of White America. Every time she does this I shout at the TV, "Say it, Obama! Say that when she and her husband were having marital difficulties regarding Monica Lewinsky, who did she and Bill bring to the White House for 'spiritual counseling?' THE REVEREND JEREMIAH WRIGHT!"

    But no, Obama won't throw that at her. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be decent. She's been through enough hurt. And so he remains silent and takes the mud she throws in his face.

    That's why the crowds who come to see him are so large. That's why he'll take us down a more decent path. That's why I would vote for him if Michigan were allowed to have an election.

    The rest of his "open letter" is just as dishonest and hate-filled. No thanks. Not listening to Moore on this.

    Parent

    Okay, that's fair. (none / 0) (#73)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:23:25 PM EST
    but honest people can disagree.  My take on HRC's Farrakhan/Wright comments was that she was trying to point at Obama's weakness as a GE candidate.  He was closely associated with that church, and there was every reason to think that connection would weaken him in Nov.

    Fine.  Probably true.

    The issue was that she could not say that the R's were going to use it against him without appearing to use it against him herself.  I'm confident (based on her lifetime of work) that she is as disgusted by racism as MM.  I think he doesn't give her the benefit of the doubt . . .okay.  That's not fair.  He should have.  It doesn't make him the enemy, imo.

    The bigger question to me is how much of a purity test we're required to pass here.  If HRC herself said that mentioning Farrakhan and Wright was a mistake because it led people to think she was exploiting racism, would that be okay?  I hope so, because I'm pretty sure she'd say that today.


    Parent

    So now calling some one "disgusting" (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:41:30 PM EST
    is mere disagreement? I don't think so. It's obvious to me, both from what Moore said about Clinton in January 2008 and in April 2008, that he has fallen victim to CDS. See TChris' comment 33 and read the rest of what Moore said about Clinton at the link-it is particularly mean-spirited and holds Clinton to a much tougher standard than either Obama or Edwards, or to the standard he held Kerry to in 2004.  

    Parent
    HRC Regretted Her AUMF Vote More Than Anything... (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by Blue Jean on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:16:16 PM EST
    And MM has never forgiven her for it; he's hung it like an albatross around her neck.  He never gave her a break, or aknowledged that yes, a new Democratic Senator from New York might be more pressured to vote for authorization in the aftermath of 9/11, then say, an obscure Chicago pol who wasn't even in the Senate at the time.  If he's not willing to cut her any slack on a war that would have happened anyway, why should others shrug off his support for Nader in 2000 as "Hey, no big deal."?

    I guess when MM's "feeling down", then "his claws come out" "periodically."

    Parent

    Especially when he (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:58:12 PM EST
    was willing to cut Kerry and Edwards slack for voting the same way that Clinton did.
     

      Okay, Kerry isn't everything you wished he would be. You're right. He's not you! Or me. But we're not on the ballot - Kerry is. Yes, Kerry was wrong to vote for authorization for war in Iraq but he was in step with 70% of the American public who was being lied to by Bush & Co. And once everyone learned the truth, the majority turned against the war.


    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#64)
    by TChris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:06:47 PM EST
    Moore's comments during the primaries made clear that he would support the Democratic nominee, whether Obama or Clinton or Edwards, over McCain. That isn't inconsistent with supporting Kerry after Kerry was on the ballot for the general election even though he disagreed with Kerry's war vote.

    Parent
    But he excused both Kerry's and Edward's votes (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 05:02:37 PM EST
    but refused to do the same for Clinton's.

    And yet, I am sad to say, nothing has disappointed me more than the disastrous, premeditated vote by Senator Hillary Clinton to send us to war in Iraq. I'm not only talking about her first vote that gave Mr. Bush his "authorization" to invade -- I'm talking about every single OTHER vote she then cast for the next four years, backing and funding Bush's illegal war, and doing so with verve. She never met a request from the White House for war authorization that she didn't like. Unlike the Kerrys and the Bidens who initially voted for authorization but later came to realize the folly of their decision, Mrs. Clinton continued to cast numerous votes for the war until last March -- four long years of pro-war votes, even after 70% of the American public had turned against the war. She has steadfastly refused to say that she was wrong about any of this, and she will not apologize for her culpability in America's worst-ever foreign policy disaster. All she can bring herself to say is that she was "misled" by "faulty intelligence."

    Let's assume that's true. Do you want a President who is so easily misled? I wasn't "misled," and millions of others who took to the streets in February of 2003 weren't "misled" either. It was simply amazing that we knew the war was wrong when none of us had been briefed by the CIA, none of us were national security experts, and none of us had gone on a weapons inspection tour of Iraq. And yet... we knew we were being lied to! Let me ask those of you reading this letter: Were YOU "misled" -- or did you figure it out sometime between October of 2002 and March of 2007 that George W. Bush was up to something rotten? Twenty-three other senators were smart enough to figure it out and vote against the war from the get-go. Why wasn't Senator Clinton?

    The link for the above quote is at your comment 33.

    If Moore was willing to vote for the eventual Democratic nominee and not hold their vote against them, then it was really stupid of him to go on ranting about Clinton's vote while excusing Kerry and Edwards.

    And this is his description of Obama, who made the very same "pro-war votes" as Clinton, once he was elected.

    Barack Obama is a good and inspiring man. What a breath of fresh air! There's no doubting his sincerity or his commitment to trying to straighten things out in this country. But who is he? I mean, other than a guy who gives a great speech? How much do any of us really know about him? I know he was against the war. How do I know that? He gave a speech before the war started. But since he joined the senate, he has voted for the funds for the war, while at the same time saying we should get out. He says he's for the little guy, but then he votes for a corporate-backed bill to make it harder for the little guy to file a class action suit when his kid swallows lead paint from a Chinese-made toy. In fact, Obama doesn't think Wall Street is a bad place. He wants the insurance companies to help us develop a new health care plan -- the same companies who have created the mess in the first place. He's such a feel-good kinda guy, I get the sense that, if elected, the Republicans will eat him for breakfast. He won't even have time to make a good speech about it.

    But this may be a bit harsh. Senator Obama has a big heart, and that heart is in the right place. Is he electable? Will more than 50% of America vote for him? We'd like to believe they would. We'd like to believe America has changed, wouldn't we? Obama lets us feel better about ourselves -- and as we look out the window at the guy snowplowing his driveway across the street, we want to believe he's changed, too. But are we dreaming?

    That January 2008 screed of Moore's that you linked to was biased and hateful towards Clinton, despite all the nice-y, nice "I loved Hillary back when she was just Bill's wife" blather he started out with. That was just an obvious attempt at inoculation against charges he was suffering from CDS. "See, I loved Hillary when she wasn't an elected official, so how could I be biased now?" Bullsh*t.  And his April 2008 piece  was even worse.

    Parent

    His comments (none / 0) (#83)
    by TChris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 05:09:41 PM EST
    were about Hillary's votes, not about Hillary personally, and he was equally critical of Obama's votes and positions.  I think you are finding "hatred" and "screeds" where none exist.

    Parent
    And I think you are refusing to see what is (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 05:47:02 PM EST
    plainly there. His criticisms are both of her votes and of her personally. He comes up with a vapid pop psychology of her AUMF vote that he pulls out of his @ss and ends with this:

    If the U.S. is faced with some unforeseen threat in her first years, she knows that in order to get re-elected she'd better be ready to go all Maggie Thatcher on whoever sneezes in our direction. Do we want to risk this, hoping the world makes it in one piece to her second term?

    Yup, she'll get us all killed. There's a fine un-biased criticism of her vote, and not her person.

    But Obama, who's made the same votes, is a "good and inspiring man" who has a "big heart". This too is certainly just a fine unbiased criticism of his votes, the same ones that Clinton made. Come on. Both of these were personal judgments that had nothing to do with their votes. Obama was cut enormous slack for his votes, and deemed good. Clinton was given harsher treatment than he accorded any other candidate and deemed a threat to our survival.

    And then in his Obama endorsement in April he said this:

    There are those who say Obama isn't ready, or he's voted wrong on this or that. But that's looking at the trees and not the forest. What we are witnessing is not just a candidate but a profound, massive public movement for change. My endorsement is more for Obama The Movement than it is for Obama the candidate.

    That is not to take anything away from this exceptional man.

    Its OK if Obama voted wrong. But Clinton?

    Yes, Senator Clinton, that's how you sounded. Like you were nuts. Like you were a bigot stoking the fires of stupidity. How sad that I would ever have to write those words about you. You have devoted your life to good causes and good deeds. And now to throw it all away for an office you can't win unless you smear the black man so much that the superdelegates cry "Uncle (Tom)" and give it all to you.

    But that can't happen. You cast your die when you voted to start this bloody war. When you did that you were like Moses who lost it for a moment and, because of that, was prohibited from entering the Promised Land.

    One wrong vote and she's unworthy of being the President, and she's a shameless bigot to boot. The double standard Moore is applying just cries out from his open letters.

    These were not just critiques of Clinton's and Obama's votes. They were personal vitriol spewed at Clinton and vapid Koo-aid-ery gushed over Obama. I'm sorry that you can't see that.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Bluesage on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:26:30 AM EST
    With Michael Moore's premise that we need strong Democrats with spines and willing to use their platform and their voices to fight for what is right but he has little credibility left to make the argument.  Obama wants to be All Things to All People and I believe that his own ambition and his own ego is his first concern so I don't really expect much unity from Obama and his supporters.  They have been very clear that you drink their kool-aid and follow The One or you are not needed.  I have really tried to find the redeeming qualities of this man's candidacy and I'm at a loss to do so.  Hillary on the ticket as VP would help because I would then feel we had a grown-up with her head and heart in the right place but I also don't expect that to happen.  

    Michael Moore should not be the go-to (4.75 / 4) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 09:58:17 PM EST
    guy for strategy on winning elections...his track records, not so great.  I do think we need a fighter, but I don't think it is obama.  We have a stronger candidate.  

    But Moore wants one with balls. (5.00 / 12) (#4)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:08:14 PM EST
    Can I mention again how weary I am of the male fixation with what their mothers taught them were to be private parts? Michael, please.  Get a thesaurus.  Join the 21st century.

    Parent
    Oh yeah, balls....the missing ingredient (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:24:56 PM EST
    Wasn't it Ed Rendell who pointed out (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:40:21 PM EST
    which candidate was the most endowed with those?

    Parent
    hmmm. not sure, but I know where you (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:44:16 PM EST
    are going with your comment; and you are correct...it IS Hillary.

    Parent
    and, Carville who said (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:51:12 PM EST
    we could take away one and she'd still have 2!!

    Parent
    I think he said that Hillary (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by rjarnold on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:04:15 AM EST
    could donate one to Obama and they would both have two!

    Parent
    Several Men Framed HRC's Strength as Anatomical (none / 0) (#91)
    by daring grace on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 10:22:54 AM EST
    male anatomy, that is.

    Hillary's 'cojones'

    That kind of bothered me. I had no problem at all with the pretty successful image she promoted of herself as strong, or that she and her advocates argued she would be stronger than Obama as CiC.

    But it clanged a little against my own feminist nerves to hear her strength, in some quarters, reduced to the idea that it came from some similarity with maleness. I wanted to say:

    As a politician, Hillary is as strong and capable as any man. And guess what, guys, she's a woman. Go figure.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    C'mon Cream... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 02:10:00 PM EST
    Balls are timeless...we need 'em as much in the 21st century as in the 1st.

    Balls and a brain are both vital components...one is useless without the other.  

    Parent

    Well, then I guess (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:24:13 PM EST
    that over half the population must be running around with useless brains, right? ;-)

    I think you just proved Creams' point. Or perhaps you were trying to prove the opposite of your own statement: that its possible to have balls and not use your brain?

     I'm sure your very proud of both your balls and your brains, but I can assure you that only the brain is necessary equipment. Trust me and Cream on this.

    Parent

    Should be you're very proud (none / 0) (#79)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:25:35 PM EST
    You're thinking literally... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 09:39:13 AM EST
    Some women have balls, some men don't

    I'm not talking about testicles...I'm talking about inner strength, fortitude, courage, daring, guts...damn right you need brains and balls to get by in this world.

    Parent

    I'm Not Usually Into Verbal PC-ness (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by daring grace on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 10:30:21 AM EST
    where my feminism is concerned, but yeah, I balk at saying a woman has balls.

    Maybe it seems too overly sensitive to you, but to me the implication of even so simple a comment as this is that strength, toughness etc. are exclusively found in testicles (i.e. men). Now if it becomes a cultural norm to reciprocate and say a MAN is tough by saying: "Hey, this guy's got womb!" maybe I'll change my tune. ;)

    I never really paid much attention to this until some of HRC's male advocates started saying this. And then...yeah, it bothered me.

    Parent

    You're entitled... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 10:41:20 AM EST
    Maybe a more pc term would be "guts".

    Me?  I can't get worked up about it, and not because I'm male...but because when someone uses the term "balls" I know they don't mean testicles, unless they are speaking literally.  Meaning is what is important, not verbiage...at least for me.

    Parent

    Guts is Fine (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by daring grace on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 10:54:02 AM EST
    And as I said, I'm not usually too verbally PC. In fact, I'm often aggressively anti verbal PC where my feminism is concerned. I hate protective censorship and tippy-toeing.

    I've never really minded the "balls" designation before. Maybe because this election was so much more sensitized around misogyny and racism and code words and dog whistles.

    I'm an Obama supporter and it rankled to hear that applied to Clinton. Go figure.

    Parent

    Moore needs to shut up (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:42:47 AM EST
    He makes us look like kooks.  He really turns off voters who are not extremely partisan, those who don't know much about politics.  He is NOT a good spokesman for us.  

    Parent
    So appearances are more important ... (none / 0) (#37)
    by cymro on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 03:47:14 AM EST
    ... than facts, in this TV age? Too bad. Poor Dennis Kucinich, he should have lived in a different time. How would Lincoln have fared today?

    But I think your analysis is missing the real issue. If all the other Democratic spokespersons were saying the same thing as Michael Moore, he would not look so out of place, would he? I think that's the real problem here.

    Maybe you are expecting that a party whose spokespersons don't speak like Michael Moore during the election will start adopting his political positions after they are elected.

    Good luck waiting to see that happen. Personally, I have lived live long enough to realize the folly of such expectations. Politicians who don't have the balls to put up a fight are worthless.

    Parent

    And the one's who do, don't get elected. (none / 0) (#89)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sun Aug 10, 2008 at 12:21:21 AM EST
    Dench, Dame Judy Dench (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Ellie on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:50:09 AM EST
    A shoutout to the fabulous Judy Dench and her stellar delivery of this line M in Tomorrow Never Dies (James Bond):

    Admiral Roebuck: "With all due respect M, sometimes I don't think you have the balls for this job."

    M: "Perhaps. But the advantage is that I don't have to think with them all the time."

    (If I had decent reimbursement for for the weary circumstances behind having to have a version of this conversation in my own work, I just might be able to afford honest attribution and cheerfully paying the royalties.)

    Parent

    That's true. (none / 0) (#88)
    by weltec2 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 10:37:16 PM EST
    I've enjoyed his movies overall. He knows and understands themes. But when it comes to leaders... he doesn't seem to be able to understand people very well.

    Parent
    Well, Michael Moore was against the candidate (4.71 / 14) (#5)
    by Angel on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:10:10 PM EST
    who knows how to fight.  He said many, many nasty things about Hillary.  But then again I think Michael Moore is just another man who doesn't really like women.  After all, who has the best healthcare plan?  Hillary.  Who made a movie about how horrendous the US is with regard to healthcare?  Michael Moore.  And now he says he wants a fighter after he trashed the known fighter, especially with regard to an issue he holds near and dear to his heart.  Creep.

    In that regard ... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by TChris on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:45:50 PM EST
    you might appreciate this portion of the linked extract:

    Obama should be making a speech about gender like the brilliant one he gave on race back in March. Millions of people, especially women, had high hopes for the candidacy of Hillary Clinton. Attention must be paid. ... Barack Obama ... has a lot at stake in making sure that women's rights and opportunities are on a par with men's. As one who knows what it's like to be in a class of people who traditionally have not held power, he's in an excellent position to speak to another group that has been left out - women - and assure them that he will be their advocate.


    Parent
    Well, didn't that take balls. (5.00 / 8) (#17)
    by Cream City on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:10:05 PM EST
    But I really, really don't want Mr. Obama to lead our national discourse on gender.  

    Let's let a typical woman person do it.

    Parent

    Obama speak about gender? (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Prabhata on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 11:50:10 PM EST
    LOL

    Parent
    Brilliant? (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Valhalla on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:14:31 AM EST
    Ok, no more Michael Moore for me.

    Giving a speech on gender is the last, the very absolute last thing Obama should do.  Unless his speech was very very short and went something like this:

    "I have seen the light and realized I was a sexist pinhead to all the women of the US and the world.  To atone, I introduce to you the most fabulous, bestest, most brilliant woman in the world to speak about sexism tonight, Hillary Rodham Clinton!  And btw, nominate her for Prez.  Big apologies, Barack."

    Parent

    Spare me. We don't need another CYA (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by masslib on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:26:49 AM EST
    speech from Obama.  We had a fighter and Michael Moore hated her.  Balls?  What the hell is that supposed to mean?

    Parent
    It is unfair (none / 0) (#33)
    by TChris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:55:47 AM EST
    to characterize Moore as "hating" Hillary.  In early 2008 he wrote:

    Those of you who are longtime readers of mine may remember that 11 years ago I wrote a chapter (in my first book) entitled, "My Forbidden Love for Hillary." I was fed up with the treatment she was getting, most of it boringly sexist, and I thought somebody should stand up for her. I later met her and she thanked me for referring to her as "one hot s***kicking feminist babe." I supported and contributed to her run for the U.S. Senate. I think she is a decent and smart person who loves this country, cares deeply about kids, and has put up with more crap than anyone I know of (other than me) from the Crazy Right. Her inauguration would be a thrilling sight, ending 218 years of white male rule in a country where 51% of its citizens are female and 64% are either female or people of color.

    Moore ultimately chose not to support her, primarily because of her Iraq vote but also because of some other less-than-progressive votes, including her initial support for the Bush administration's bankruptcy bill.  Moore's decision to support another candidate does not make him evil.  Nor is he evil for harshly criticizing Obama in the same linked letter.

    Parent

    Moore lied in his movie and said (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by masslib on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:26:27 AM EST
    she had sold out and was beholden to the insurance industry, which was patently untrue.  If Moore wanted a fighter, on issues at least, then he picked the wrong balls.

    Parent
    Sometime after the above (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Valhalla on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 10:23:43 AM EST
    he said he was disgusted with her.

    And in all his harangues against her votes on the war, he keeps repeating that Obama was against the war, against the war, against the war.  But oops, forgets to mention that once in the Senate, Obama's votes on the war didn't diverge from Clinton's once.

    Parent

    He said it in his open letter endorsing (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:21:13 PM EST
    Obama in April righ before the PA primary.

    ...over the past two months, the actions and words of Hillary Clinton have gone from being merely disappointing to downright disgusting.

    The hate-filled screed against Clinton is matched by the starry-eyed paean to Obama.

    But no, Obama won't throw that at her. It wouldn't be right. It wouldn't be decent. She's been through enough hurt. And so he remains silent and takes the mud she throws in his face.

    That's why the crowds who come to see him are so large. That's why he'll take us down a more decent path.  

    So now he's trying to cut back on the Kool-aid. I'm not impressed.

    Parent

    No it doesn't make him evil. (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by rooge04 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 05:08:46 PM EST
    The fact that he lied about her over and over DOES.    But let's face facts...my comment got deleted because I called you out on it.

    Parent
    Are you kidding? (1.00 / 0) (#35)
    by HonoraryClinton on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:34:35 AM EST
    So anyone who points out a flaw in Hillary hates women? Way to inject gender bias where there is none. Oh, wait, I just criticized a woman so I must hate women too.

    I actively campaigned for Hillary and I voted for Hillary and would love to see her kicking ass on the way to the White House right now, but these divisive attacks on our own solve nothing. Let's hear more solutions and less gender baiting.

    A site called "Talk Left" is supposed to be about liberal views and those are views that both men and woman hold. Smearing Michael Moore as a woman hater doesn't advance the discourse it drags it down and I see far too much of it here. We don't need to become the funhouse mirror versions of those we seek to replace.

    I'm a man, am I not allowed here anymore? Has the mission of this site changed with the loss of Hillary Clinton? I wasn't an active poster but during the primary this site was my home and I spent hours here everyday because this place was the only site giving Hillary fair treatment, but after her loss I decided I would rather Obama selecting justices on the Supreme Court than McCain. That's the choice now. Which one will better serve the issues that matter to us all?
    When will the dialog move back to those issues?

    I don't mean to single you out, I see many posting similar comments in every thread, yours just finally prompted me to respond. I, for one, look forward to returning to a time when we all Talk Left.

    Parent

    Commenters here (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 01:43:14 AM EST
    do not represent the views of TalkLeft. Only the site authors do -- and even then, when you see them write "speaking for me only" they are not speaking for TalkLeft.

    This is clearly stated on our home page. The mission of TalkLeft hasn't changed since it began in 2002.

    Parent

    Didn't say anyone who criticized Hillary was a (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Angel on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    hater.  But it is a fact that Michael Moore said many, many ugly things about Hillary.  He lied about her record.  The venom he spewed made it obvious he detests her.  Now he wants to rewrite the record and try to kiss and make up by saying that Obama needs to address the sexism issue.  Go check the internet and read and hear some of the things Michael Moore said about Hillary.  Watch his film.  Michael Moore is the last person anyone should be going to for advice about an election.  Look what happened with Nader in 2000.  

    Parent
    See comment 33 (none / 0) (#51)
    by TChris on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 11:48:38 AM EST
    Moore was praising Hillary Clinton and complaining about sexist attacks upon her in JANUARY 2008.  That's not rewriting the record ... that IS the record.

    Parent
    This is also the record (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:03:17 PM EST
    I haven't spoken publicly 'til now as to who I would vote for, primarily for two reasons: 1) Who cares?; and 2) I (and most people I know) don't give a rat's ass whose name is on the ballot in November, as long as there's a picture of JFK and FDR riding a donkey at the top of the ballot, and the word "Democratic" next to the candidate's name.

    Seriously, I know so many people who don't care if the name under the Big "D" is Dancer, Prancer, Clinton or Blitzen. It can be Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Barry Obama or the Dalai Lama.

    Well, that sounded good last year, but over the past two months, the actions and words of Hillary Clinton have gone from being merely disappointing to downright disgusting. I guess the debate last week was the final straw. I've watched Senator Clinton and her husband play this game of appealing to the worst side of white people, but last Wednesday, when she hurled the name "Farrakhan" out of nowhere, well that's when the silly season came to an early end for me. She said the "F" word to scare white people, pure and simple....

     

    And BTW, the first paragraph posted is a lie. Moore made several public statements in January and February stating very clearly that he wouldn't be voting for Clinton, using her AUMF vote as his reasoning.

    Parent

    It's also the record that MM (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by RalphB on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:09:31 PM EST
    was on Leno, Larry King etc lying his @ss off about Hillary being a sellout to the Big PHarma etc because she was #1 in contributions from their lobbyists.  When you took out contributions from individual doctors and nurses, she wasn't in the top 20.

    That's the kind of lie that really hurt her early in the campaign, so I don't care much about 33.

    Parent

    I'm looking at the total history of Michael Moore (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Angel on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:19:38 PM EST
    relative to Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and healthcare.  I don't really give a damn what he says today.  What he said in the past is what I have formed the basis of my comments on.  He's trying to undo what has been done.

    Parent
    I Agree With Michael Moore (2.00 / 1) (#40)
    by john horse on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:01:12 AM EST
    Democrats should learn from past mistakes.  We should anticipate Republicans going negative because that is what they do to win elections.    

    It might also help if we learned to unite behind and support our candidate.  I voted for Hillary but I have no problem supporting Obama over McCain.  McCain a continuation of George Bush's failed policies.  

    Being divided only helps McCain.  Maybe thats what some of you really want.      

    It's (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:54:14 AM EST
    up to Obama to unite the party. He hasn't even tried. He always expects someone else to do the work and reap the benefits. If you want a united party then you should be riding Obama's back to get it done.

    Parent
    Other Mistakes Democrats make (5.00 / 6) (#46)
    by Valhalla on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 09:51:36 AM EST
    Ooooo!  Ooooo!  how you wound me with your witty repartee about McCain!

    One mistake the Democrats have made for years, and are making this year, is a continuing refusal to accept reality.  That, Democrats are not Republicans.

    The leadership, esp. Dean who has spoken about this, cannot accept that Democrats are not Republicans.  They eye the easy fall-in-line obedience (R)s enjoy, and fume that their 'low info' base refuses to do the same, gripe about our inability to swallow the propaganda hook, line and sinker, and fret because they have to do the work of persuasion and leadership rather than merely issuing ultimatums.

    All's fair, and the fact is that Republicans have and attract a large number of supporters who appreciate more authoritarian models of governance than Democrats do.

    Instead of facing that and creating a strategy to overcome it, they jealously ogle Republicans' military parades of supporters and turn their hostility on their own.  It's not fair, but politics isn't fair.  Get over it.  Real leaders find a way to create a community of common interest to inspire and persuade and bring supporters to them, not bully and whine and pester and snark their way to some empty idea of unity.

    Dems very possibly blew their chance again this year.  Maybe they'll learn next time.  Maybe.

    Parent

    Yeah! Moore should have gone with (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Ellie on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    ... urging Obama to be white about the issue, avoided ANY controversy and brought on the same defenses of his special message as needlessly criticized for bigotry.

    White, as slang still contemporarily in use, employed to mean honorable, firm, but fair dating back to 1877, Amer.Eng., has understandably diminished because racism is SERIOUS bigotray.

    Of course criticism of explicit sexism and misogyny continue to be categorized as frivolous.

    Dammit, where's that Feminist Lawn Jockey when you need to crack a few balls!

    Parent

    Hmmm...party unity was not (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by rooge04 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:17:15 PM EST
    a concern when Obama and his campaign was busy calling the 90s the Bush-Clinton era or the administration of Bill a failure or that Hillary lacked character---ya know when she wasn't sticking her claws out at him and fake-crying for votes.

    Parent
    Fight first ?You mean like a pre emptive strike? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Saul on Fri Aug 08, 2008 at 10:02:58 PM EST
    That would be too much like the Bush adminstration

    I like and admire Mike even when he p!sses me off (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ellie on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 12:29:27 PM EST
    I love his work, I love his passion and I'd love to have a beer with him whether or not he's being a jackwad at the time.

    (I'm a warts and all type, warts and all.)

    Michael Moore's Inconvenient Truths (none / 0) (#78)
    by john horse on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 04:25:03 PM EST
    The only time I ever saw Michael Moore was during the 2004 election when he was working his butt off to help elect John Kerry.  He came by FSU that fall.

    Outside the auditorium where he was going to speak it was like a political circus.  Most of the crowd were either anti-Bush or uncommitted but curious, but there was also a vocal minority of pro-George Bush Republicans protesting against Moore.  There was excitement in the air as both pro and anti-Bush students engaged each other in a lively discussion mainly about the war in Iraq.  This was the first time that I could remember a large group of students who were engaged in politics rather than being apathetic.  By the way during the question and answer portion of Moore's presentation, Moore asked if there were any pro-Bush students in the audience and insisted that they be allowed to make their points which I thought was very fair and civil of him.

    One of the reasons that Moore has generated so much controversy was that he had the guts to speak truth to power at a time when it wasn't popular to do so.  What I suspect Moore's detractors can't stand is that Michael Moore has for the most part proven to be right about the war in Iraq, about George Bush, and the sad state of health care in our country.

    I would really like to know (none / 0) (#85)
    by gormenghast on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:35:54 PM EST
    what sort of "fighting" advice he gave to that ficus tree he voted for - what year was that?

    2000 (none / 0) (#86)
    by tree on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 07:57:43 PM EST
    You know, the year that there was no difference between the candidates, Bush and Gore.<snark>

      Moore's funny and he knows how to promote an issue, but his political instincts are atrocious.

    Parent

    Wow, If MM is right (none / 0) (#87)
    by downtownted on Sat Aug 09, 2008 at 08:13:50 PM EST
    How does he propose to handle the racism issue laid out by Charles Blow in today's NYT. Keep quiet and it silently chokes the campaign. Bring it up and you "Are Playing the Race Card." What would MM do?
    The New York Times August 9, 2008 Op-Ed Columnist Racism and the Race By CHARLES M. BLOW
    This is supposed to be the Democrats' year of destiny. Bush is hobbling out of office, the economy is in the toilet, voters are sick of the war and the party's wunderkind candidate is raking in money hand over fist.
    So why is the presidential race a statistical dead heat? The pundits have offered a host of reasons, but one in particular deserves more exploration: racism.
    Barack Obama's candidacy has shed some light on the extremes of racism in America -- how much has dissipated (especially among younger people) and how much remains.
    According to a July New York Times/CBS News poll, when whites were asked whether they would be willing to vote for a black candidate, 5 percent confessed that they would not. That's not so bad, right? But wait. The pollsters then rephrased the question to get a more accurate portrait of the sentiment. They asked the same whites if most of the people they knew would vote for a black candidate. Nineteen percent said that those they knew would not. Depending on how many people they know and how well they know them, this universe of voters could be substantial. That's bad.
    Welcome to the murky world of modern racism, where most of the open animus has been replaced by a shadowy bias that is difficult to measure. As Obama gently put it in his race speech, today's racial "resentments aren't always expressed in polite company." However, they can be -- and possibly will be -- expressed in the privacy of the voting booth.
    If the percentage of white voters who cannot bring themselves to vote for a black candidate were only 15 percent, that would be more than all black voters combined. (Coincidentally, it also would be more than all voters under 24 years old.) That amounts to a racial advantage for John McCain.
    And this sentiment stretched across ideological lines. Just as many white independents as Republicans said that most of the people they knew would not vote for a black candidate, and white Democrats were not far behind. Also, remember that during the Democratic primaries, up to 20 percent of white voters in some states said that the race of the candidate was important to them. Few of those people voted for the black guy.
    Some might say that turnabout is fair play, citing the fact that 89 percent of blacks say they plan to vote for Obama. That level of support represents a racial advantage for him, too, right? Not necessarily. Blacks overwhelmingly vote Democratic in the general election anyway. According to CNN exit polls John Kerry got 88 percent of the black vote in 2004. Think racism isn't a major factor in this election? Think again.