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Monday Open Thread

Did you watch Nadal-Federer? This is an Open thread.

One unrelated note - Joe Gandleman, who runs The Moderate Voice, is a good guy so he should not be tarred when one of his writers uses sexist language ("the last thing Obama needs is this pack of doomsaying [formerly Hillary supporting] crows [Link] nipping at his ears and caw-cawing over every perceived slight") and falsely describes the posts of other bloggers, as was done to me. Somehow writing "absent a change in the dynamics of this election, Barack Obama will defeat John McCain for the Presidency in November" is "tak[ing] a masochistic delight in reporting on every poll showing problems for the Illinois Senator." To some, nothing short of fawning adulation will do.

By Big Tent Democrat

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    If there's ever been a better match (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Jim J on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:42:07 AM EST
    I certainly don't remember it. This was one of the best contests in all of sports, not just tennis. Amazing level of play and competition from beginning to end, with none of the unsavory aspects of nearly every other sport these days (steroids, crooked referees, blown calls, etc.).

    It was a great a match (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by talex on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:11:46 AM EST
    We haven't seen one like that in a long time. But I don't know that it was the Greatest Of All Time as the commentators tried to say. That is such a subjective phrase. For those old enough to remember some of the great matches of Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, Borg when they played each other and others those too were some great matches.

    Where I think todays tennis falls short is in the personalities and the on court drama of those personalities. Great tennis yesterday? Absolutely! Tiger Woods like fist pumps from Connors on his knees? The entertaining antics of McEnroe? No. The gutting it out and wearing his heart on his sleeve determination followed up by the gentlemanly and humbleness of Agassi. No.

    Tiger Woods is Tiger Woods because he is not only a great player but also because he is a personality who gives you something between swings. It was the same with those I mentioned above. They were bigger than the game itself. They gave you great tennis and entertainment. That is something that Federer will never have as great of a player that he is. Nadal has faint flashes of it but I don't see him being the next Tiger Woods of tennis. Connors, McEnroe, Agassi, et al - they were a pattern for Tiger Woods. They transcended the game of tennis. They were Rock Stars not just great tennis players.

    Parent

    It was Mac (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:13:24 AM EST
    who over-enthused that this match was "the greatest he ever saw!"  Well....maybe....

    I agree with you, tho.  One of the greatest and there have been many which raised my blood pressure more than this one...including (dare I say it?) some of the women's matches!

    Yes.  Billie Jean, Martina, Yvonne Goolagong had their moments, among others.  Chrissie Evert?  Not so much.  More in the Federer mold, so I take your point, Talex...the cool technicians who are outstanding athletes can't quite get us as connected to their fate as the excitable personalities like Connors, Agassi, McEnroe, Billie Jean and Martina.

    Somehow, I don't quite see Tiger in that same field...seems a bit more like Pete Sampras to me, emotionally, but probably among the best who ever will play their respective games...and compelling to watch them do it.

    Watching this men's final was a bit like watching Tiger grind it out a couple of weeks ago..."can he DO it?"  Kept me glued to the set...both times!

    Parent

    I agree with you to an extent. (none / 0) (#159)
    by JoeA on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:49:21 AM EST
    However I'm not sure i buy your implication that somehow Tiger Woods is a great personality.  Woods is successful due to marketing and how dominant he has been in Golf, any success he has had I would argue is despite his personality rather than because of it.

    Parent
    According to the Iowa Independent.... (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:48:09 AM EST
    Obama is taking over the state-wide machine and replacing it with his people - focusing on electing BO...not downticket Dems.

    http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2556

    It looks as if this is happening in other states, too.

    50 state strategy?  Only if your name is Obama (and then it's a 57 state strategy!).

    Interesting (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:52:38 AM EST
    Well-known diarist desmoinesdem wrote this at MyDD over the weekend:

    You may think that Obama will give down-ticket candidates all the help they need in November. But depending on where you live, the Obama campaign may not be putting its GOTV muscle in the crucial legislative districts.

    I was very concerned to learn a few days ago that the Iowa Democratic Party has in effect shut down its "coordinated campaign" and transferred control over GOTV statewide to the Obama campaign.

    What's best for maximizing Obama's presidential vote is not necessarily what's best for maximizing the number of Democrats elected to the state legislature. For instance, Obama's field plan for Johnson County and Linn County might focus on student precincts in Iowa City and urban precincts in Cedar Rapids.

    However, we need strong GOTV efforts in other parts of Linn and Johnson Counties if we want to elect Willems in House district 29 or Dandekar in Senate district 18.

    I have no idea whether the Obama campaign's field plan for Polk County will focus on the precincts we need to elect Jerry Sullivan in House district 59.

    Since I see little chance of John McCain winning Iowa's electoral votes, I would rather spend my volunteer time on competitive districts. Whether Obama wins Iowa by 5 percent or 10 percent is less important than getting more and better Democrats in the Iowa House and Senate.



    Parent
    never you mind....... (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:56:59 AM EST
    Obama knows what is best for you.  just always truc=st and believe in that.

    Parent
    Watch the Obama Interview (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by cpa1 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:34:14 AM EST
    I have been asking fellow Democrats to take a little time to watch the 49 minute interview that Obama gave to the editorial board at the Reno Gazette in January of 2008.  You cannot call yourselves informed voters or even good Democrats if you don't watch this.  I think it reveals just what Barack Obama is.  You can find it here: http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026

    Turn up the volume on your speakers initially but it does get louder.  

    Parent

    I listened (not the whole 49 min),` (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:42:43 AM EST
    What I heard is nothing new. What I heard were side-liner comments (just like what he would do in Iraq before he was a u.s. senator)He said the gov't should be a tool for the people. If he meant that, then he wouldn't hold the sort of positions he now has changed to, i.e. FISA. A tool of the people does not mean spying on them and listening to them. Just one example tho'  If I were interviewed, I'd say positive stuff, too. It's actions...

    Parent
    That interview (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:49:27 AM EST
    and a few issues with his credentials tipped the scales against him, were you convinced by this interview?   I found it really telling.  

    Parent
    Sorry, But It Made Me Wanna Throw Up (3.66 / 3) (#69)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:53:18 AM EST
    The blatant lies and posturing, and fantastic rhetoric (nothing that hasn't been said before) was too much for me to take so early in the day.

    "I wanna make the government cool again." -- And there's Mr. Presumptuous' goal for his presidency.

    Give me a break!

    Parent

    So this is the "change" politic. (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:02:11 AM EST
    Take over the electorate, do not campaign downticket, move your headquarters to Chicago, look surprised when anyone questions your mandates or criticizes you. "Top of the world, ma, top of the world." (for those too young, early James Cagney).  

    Parent
    Wow, that's not "Midwestern nice" (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:04:50 AM EST
    at all.  The Chicago Way hits the cornfields.  No surprise that Iowans were a bit naive about it all 'way back in January, but they need to wise up and toughen up fast for the New Politics now.

    Or they could end up losing Dem seats in their state legislature.

    Do you know which other states are seeing this, too?

    Parent

    Colorado (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Josey on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:06:19 AM EST
    >>>>The situation mirrors what happened in Colorado, where the Obama campaign announced last last month it would not be joining the state's coordinated campaign and instead would operate alongside it. The move drew criticism from some Colorado Democrats who fear the party will end up duplicating efforts and squandering resources.

    Parent
    I read over at another blog.... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:16:41 AM EST
    that Nevade is moving in the direction.

    Parent
    I mean NEVADA! (none / 0) (#28)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:16:58 AM EST
    "taking over the state-wide machine" (5.00 / 8) (#32)
    by sj on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:29:20 AM EST
    More creepiness.

    Add this to the fact that he's told his donors not to contribute to any independent groups.  Add that to his messianic speaking style.  Add that to his lack of interest in nuts and bolts work.  Add that to his lack of interest in feedback from voters.

    Add that to the unitary executive (or rather, dictator) that Bush has been pretty successful at creating and I feel rather cornered and very, very wary.

    Parent

    S.C.A.R.Y. (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Josey on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:08:18 AM EST
    Thanks for re-posting (none / 0) (#7)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:56:17 AM EST
    this.

    Parent
    Eh... I don't know (none / 0) (#46)
    by Exeter on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:41:10 AM EST
    I would assume that Obama wants good people and have made some sort of determination that some people in place are not good.  I would say this is probably more about Obama campaign people wanting people they know and trust in place and less about focus on an Obama-only campaign.  

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:48:18 AM EST
    Obama wants loyal supporters - not necessarily democrats.

    Blech.  

    Nice inclusive tent ya got there, Obama.  May you reap what you sow.

    Parent

    We're talking about GOTV operations... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Exeter on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:59:52 AM EST
    here, though, and I don't really see a scenario where Obama voters wouldn't vote down-tickent for Dems.

    Parent
    Oh, really? (5.00 / 5) (#79)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:01:36 AM EST
    Some Obama supporters are not democrats.  Why should they vote for them?

    Parent
    This is Iowa. A very conservative state (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:08:46 AM EST
    that often goes Republican.  As it did last time.  Gosh, no reason to think Dems might not have it easy there.

    And especially the Dem candidates who coughed up hard-won funding for a campaign coordinated to work for them.  This is not big-city politics.  Raising even a thousand bucks in Iowa can mean months of knocking on doors.  (Yeh, we still expect candidates to knock on every door in the Midwest -- even in my big city.)

    Parent

    Not voting down ticket in the primary (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:20:53 AM EST
    was documented and reported. Here is information on the Oregon primary and IIRC the same thing was documented in some other states.

    In the Oregon primary in May, we got a good look at what passionate Obama supporters might do when it comes to other races on the ballot. Some 636,000 Democrats voted in the May primary -- a ballot that included primary races for president, Senate, attorney general, secretary of state and several other races.

    On that day, more than 90,000 Democrats voted for Obama or Sen. Hillary Clinton, then didn't bother to vote in the fiercely contested Democratic primary for Senate. The drop-off totals grew as voters moved down the ballot -- more than 100,000 Democrats voted in the presidential primary, but not in contested primaries for secretary of state and attorney general. Seattle Times



    Parent
    Same thing seen by a Texas newspaper (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:24:51 AM EST
    analysis, as I recall.  A Fort Worth paper, I think, but analyzing downticket voting statewide, where it found a similar, serious dropoff in Obama voters not even bothering to mark anything else on the ballot.

    Parent
    Dems for a day effect? (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by magisterludi on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:30:53 AM EST
    Along with young voters (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:35:42 AM EST
    who were only familiar with Obama.  The Dallas Morning News seemed to say that was the main reason.

    Parent
    Down ticket (4.00 / 0) (#154)
    by CST on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:44:53 AM EST
    One thing to consider, most of those down-ticket people were for primaries.  A lot of people who don't know the difference won't vote for or against a person they don't know.  In a general election, those same people will pull the D button for all posts, because they will vote for a party.  I am talking about those young "uninformed" voters, since I know a lot of them who do exactly that.

    Parent
    I was pretty sure that Texas was one of the (none / 0) (#148)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:38:06 AM EST
    other states but was reluctant to say so since I couldn't find the link. Unfortunately, my google skills are rather primitive and I wind up with so much junk that it is hard for me to find what I want.

    Parent
    Well then (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:54:24 AM EST
    Obama should have run as an idependent, rather than as a Democrat.

    Oh wait!

    Parent

    I'm curious (5.00 / 6) (#114)
    by sj on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:16:09 AM EST
    Have you ever worked a campaign season for the Democratic party?  I have.  And this is the kind of arrogant, money-wasting, resource-grabbing, self-serving "ground game" that hurts local candidates who generally don't have big budgets.  This is even worse that what usually happens when the presidential candidate runs a ground game independent from the local party.  That means duplicating efforts.  This is worse because it is taking over and refocusing efforts on a single race.

    "I would assume that Obama wants good people and have made some sort of determination that some people in place are not good."

    There is absolutely no reason to make such an assumption.  None whatsoever.  However there IS some evidence to that statement if you substitute the word "good" for "loyal" (to Obama).

    Parent

    And locals often are better (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:23:06 AM EST
    than outsiders, especially in the Midwest -- where big-city politics really can play poorly.  

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the Midwest mantra.  Was the local ground game "broken"?

    As for broke, yes, now the local pols who worked hard for a thousand bucks may be broke.  I backed a relative in a local campaign this spring, and I can tell you that every ten bucks got a huge thank-you from him to donors -- and made a difference in helping to pay for all the campaign lit, yard signs, etc.  And this was a campaign against a guy in his 80s . . . but he had the power of incumbency as well as his well-off party behind him to fund him.

    Parent

    LOL - can you imagine Obamaphiles, (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:29:11 AM EST
    high on - whatever...hope, change, Kool-Aid - knocking on the door of a Iowa voter and trying to pry money out of them for their guy?

    Seriously, the BO campaign is delusional - they have spat on core female Dems - the ones who invested years of time, money and boots-on-the-ground on behalf of the Democratic Party and now they're cutting the rest of the core establishment loose.

    Not.  Smart!

    Parent

    Obama already has problems in small towns (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:47:36 AM EST
    and rural areas in the Midwest. Big city folks trying to educate these "clingers" will lose more votes than they win. Bubba (affectionately meant) to Bubba canvassing might have a chance to get votes for Obama while they hawk their own state and local Dems.

    Parent
    On "fox news sunday" (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by kenosharick on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:55:30 AM EST
    they were giving their picks for veep. Fred barnes or one of them suggested a woman (not Hillary) for Obama claiming it would make all us disaffected Dems happy-what an idiot. Mara whats her name tried to explain that that would be a poke in the eye to Hillary supporters, but he just laughed,confident of his brilliant analysis.

    As the song goes (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:03:11 AM EST
    "All lies and jest
    Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
    And disregards the rest."


    Parent
    A little Carole King seems to fit here (none / 0) (#162)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:49:42 AM EST
    "Can't talk to a man if he don't want to understand."

    Parent
    Shotting themselves in the foot (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:10:39 AM EST
    seems to be a popular option at Obama headquarters so I would not be the least bit surprised if they did choose a female not Clinton in an attempt to exploit the female vote. So far I have been pretty mum on the Presidential race(something that surprises everyone because I am the goto on what is going on in DC). My tongue has lacerations from biting it. That will change though if Clinton isn't on the ticket. Right now, Clinton is Obama's only shot at getting my vote and my support.

    The Democrats blew it big time with me with their voter disenfranchisement and rigging.

    Parent

    Nailed it. (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:29:07 AM EST
    Bottom line...no Clinton, no vote.

    My lifelong Democratic Party friends and acquaintences are shocked but this, like you cawaltz, is where I draw the line.

    Parent

    I wonder what he would say (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:11:09 AM EST
    to the rumors that John McCain is considering the female Republican governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, for his VP?

    OMG! Which vagina shall I vote for? So confused, so confused...

    Parent

    You must (5.00 / 4) (#184)
    by Nadai on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:20:49 AM EST
    ask your husband, silly.  Or whichever adult male relative you've been assigned to.

    Parent
    And consult your pastor (5.00 / 4) (#187)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:23:13 AM EST
    of course.

    Parent
    Well I'm getting ready for the (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Florida Resident on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:08:16 AM EST
    blame those bitter Clinton followers if he loses in November.

    Awwwwwwww (none / 0) (#19)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:12:19 AM EST
    I'm touched that I MATTER so much.

    Personally, the person you ought to blame is your candidate though.

    Parent

    You misunderstooo (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:12:57 AM EST
    Florida Resident's comment.

    Parent
    Then I apologize (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:22:15 AM EST
    This primary cycle did leave a BITTER taste in my mouth so I'll have to use that as my excuse. ;)

    Parent
    I Think (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:49:51 AM EST
    "Florida Resident" is on our side :)

    And yeah, I agree with him/her. Whatever happens in November, there'll be some way of tying it back to Hillary Clinton and her supporters.

    We are not a deaf and dumb bunch of people who just automatically latch on the Democratic candidate. Not if he has not won the nomination in the cleanest of ways, and he does not speak to the concerns that we have.

    And now that he's flip-flopping and chucking the state races by the wayside, it says a lot about him and how he is going to govern the country (because he's got a razor-thin Senate record filled with holes and blemishes).

    Parent

    Moderate Voice--"sicko column" (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by wurman on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:08:29 AM EST
    Jazz Shaw & commenters seem stuck on some weird necrophilia of dual Kennedy references.  The imagery of crows, as birds of carrion, & the word "wraiths" put this writer in a very strange neighborhood--& it ain't politics.

    The description of disaffected Clinton supporters: "polls continue to suggest that the remainder, while small in number, were more numerous than some thought" is hilarious.  It seems that "polls" may indicate up to 40 percent of 18 million Democratic primary voters may be the "wraiths."  I have to wonder in what electoral fantasy that is a small number?

    The term CDS was used often in comments here.  It seems that for this "Band Aid" writer the single word "deranged" would be sufficient.

    I was surprised to see that at TMV (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:12:32 AM EST
    Joe is a good guy who avoids insults at all costs.

    Of course, that was not my objection. I object to the sexist language and the false characterization of my post.

    Parent

    Not familiar with TMV (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by wurman on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:48:43 AM EST
    It doesn't surprise me that an Obama supporter, in this instance an apologist, would be a sexist & misogynistic dweeb.

    Not much surprise either when some blogger or media hack or commenting poseur distorts Big Tent posts.  You have standing challenges, en garde, to all such in various scattered statements around Talk Left.  You're not exactly a small, moving target for those Pat Garret types who need to shoot a better known blogger in the back.

    It just seems odd to me that so many Obamaphiles seem to write with such demented terminology & phrasing.  And, without meeting them, it's not possible to know whether such people are truly demented, simply sophomoric from reading too much Camus & Kafka, or Quentin Tarentino fans who figured out how to operate a keyboard.

    Parent

    Having been around a mob of real crows (2.25 / 4) (#45)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:39:08 AM EST
    once or twice, I can tell you it is an accurate metaphoric description of the way some people have reacted to the way the Dem primary has worked out.

    A mob of real crows will go after larger (and more dangerous, in bird terms) hawks and owls by swooping in from all angles, making an incredible amount of really annoying noise, pecking (for the eyes) and generally running off the offending bird of prey by wearing it down with harassment.

    This spring, while fishing, I saw four or five crows take on, and chase away, an adult bald eagle.

    So, for people who were displeased with the primary result, do as I did:  get over it.  Electing a Democrat is far more important than being dissatisfied with which Democrat and then making life more difficult for that Democrat.

    Or, as the old saying goes:  "the perfect is the enemy of the good."  The Democrats going after Obama and caricatured in the TMV article, are championing the perfect at the expense of the good and doing the Republicans' dirty work for them.


    Parent

    Obama supporters just can't get over it (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:42:38 AM EST
    is what I see, as I said below, when I read work such as this "moderate voice."  Better to not voice at all such ongoing attacks on Clinton and her supporters, dontcha think?  Unity and all that?

    Parent
    Apparently (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:47:49 AM EST
    Sexist slurs are ok with you or are you not familiar with the usage of "crows" to insult women?

    Or how about the false characterizations of my post? Are you good with that too?

    Lying and sexism are ok now?

    Parent

    Is it a case (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:52:22 AM EST
    this time of the perfect being the enemy of the good, or of the good being the enemy of the unfit?

    You see, many of us think it's the latter.

    Parent

    "The perfect is the enemy of... (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by santarita on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:24:37 AM EST
    the lesser of two evils."  sounds like a  new campaign slogan.

    Parent
    I wonder (5.00 / 6) (#81)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:01:58 AM EST
    if we would ever see a comment saying "but Obama's supporters really ARE lazy, shiftless welfare queens."

    In the prevailing dynamic, racism is always the Most Serious Issue Ever, while sexism remains good for a yuk yuk.  If even liberals don't get it, how do we ever plan to educate everyone else?

    Parent

    I'm NOT getting over it (5.00 / 6) (#126)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:23:47 AM EST
    and no amount of telling me to "get over it" will change that.

    So far I have held my ammo and haven't pointed out the flips and the flops and targeted his positions with the particular demographic I happen to be speaking to. That can and will change though if I don't start seeing the "good" of which you speak. I don't see it "good" when a Democrat attacks the idea of providing health care to everyone(by saying doing so means they'd have to choose between health care or rent) . I don't see "good" when a Democrat says screw the fourth amendment. I don't see "good" when a Democrat supports Cheney's energy policy or believes it is right to force a woman to have a child regardless of what it does to her mental well being(which by the way impacts her and the fetuses physical well being). I don't see mob mentality, disenfranchisement or sexism as "good."

    Good is a relative term and from where I am sitting I don't see this greater good that will be achieved as a result of his election. Obama supporters better start painting a better picture of what "good" is withoutscreeching Roe v Wade or hollering "get over it." Better than Bush didn't work and I wouldn't expect better than McCain to fair much better.

    Parent

    Quoth the Raven (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by ruffian on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EST
    Nevermore

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:42:19 AM EST
    Apparently, I'm a crow, not a raven ;) . Does being 39  qualify me as an old or young one, I wonder?

    Parent
    At 39, I could have been (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:49:22 AM EST
    best described as in denial.:-)


    Parent
    Travel back to 2000... (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:51:39 AM EST
    and assume the role of a Republican and patriot. In retrospect was it better to elect any Republican? Would the country be better off if McCain supporters back then crossed party lines and voted for Gore? I think so. Republicans then were so blind to Bush's flaws because they wanted any Republican. Your criticism of Obama's critics echo the get-in-line attitude of Republicans. If one can't learn from history, they are doomed to repeat it.

    Parent
    Hey, I thought the correct term (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:09:13 AM EST
    for a collective of (or conspiracy of) crows was "murder" of crows?

    That said, I concur with scribe and the general thrust (less the more obvious sexist terms in that piece, but not the stuff about crows) of that guy at TMV.

    Except for the part about perhaps needing to name a Veep now (assuming he was taking that seriously).  The time for that roll-out is indeed in the final week leading up to Denver.

    And right now, my pick (from as early as early April) -- Sebelius -- continues to look very strong.  She's got to be on his Very Short List of Five.

    Parent

    Sebelius - OMG (none / 0) (#200)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:44:48 AM EST
    that would be perfect.

    I watched her on C-SPAN yesterday...so long as I was able...talk about vanilla-pudding boring.

    It must be a midwest thing...

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#186)
    by Nadai on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:22:47 AM EST
    for your advice.  I will give it all the consideration it deserves.

    Parent
    Huh (none / 0) (#44)
    by Lora on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:38:43 AM EST
    "Crows" is a new one on me.  Derrogatory, of course, but I would not have gotten the sexist gist without your link.  Never heard "crows" used to refer to women before, I guess.  Lucky me.  I suppose it should now be de riguer to consult the Roads to Equality Style Book before posting.

    Parent
    I too hadn't heard that about (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:04:04 AM EST
    the word crow.  The stuff you learn here.  Especially for us younger ornithologically-challenged ones.

    My impression would have been, just looking at those gigantic, opportunistic and potentially menacing dark birds called crows (see Hitchcock, Alfred, The Birds 1963, starring 'Tippi' Hedren), that they would have far more in common with your typical aggressive male type person, especially of the Republican variety.  The much smaller and less menacing blackbird having more in common with the wimmunfolk -- or modern day softie Dems.  

    Parent

    Now that you supposedly learned this (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:21:57 AM EST
    (and I am beginning to wonder what world some of you live in), I assume you are ready to condemn its usage here.

    Parent
    I do condemn overtly sexist language, (none / 0) (#147)
    by brodie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:36:41 AM EST
    and I was sincere in noting I first learned of this one here today.  But if it's generally accepted out there in The Real World, where I do occasionally venture, but don't usually linger, as sexist, then I'm happy to go along with and not fight the consensus view on this matter.

    But then I may have a mental block on this business about the crows, as I alluded to above.  My thoughts about them tend not to go in the direction of how the word for them could be turned against women, but how the creatures themselves could one day turn against me, literally, in some nightmare scenario where I'm suddenly attacked as I'm innocently walking through some neighborhood parking lot nearby a fast food restaurant, where these enormous creatures of the air tend to hang out for the freebies.

    Crows eating people.  People eating crow.  Those are about the only two things I associate with these scary beasts.  

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:48:57 AM EST
    You never heard a woman referred to as an "old crow?" REALLY? I find that hard to believe.

    Parent
    Question.... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:56:08 AM EST
    Is calling a man an old dog sexist?  How about a young pup?

    Seriously curious...are any analogies ok?

    Parent

    I do not know (none / 0) (#87)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:05:33 AM EST
    Do you think it is derogatory?

    Do you think calling a woman beautiful is sexist?

    I am curious, are you really this obtuse, or are you just acting?

    Parent

    I don't think beautiful or crow (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:19:20 AM EST
    is sexist...they are descriptions that can be accurate or not.  Just as old dog, d*ckhead, handsome or caveman are descriptions that can be accurate or not.

    I could see you saying beautiful is a sexist term meant to imply that women are viewed only as objects...you've taken the ball and ran with less.

    Parent

    I;ve seen you gloss over (none / 0) (#125)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:23:07 AM EST
    sexism and racism in the past so your right wing claptrap on this is nothing new for me.

    Parent
    In our house (none / 0) (#90)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:06:41 AM EST
    "an old dog" is a revered member of our family. We even let him sleep on the couch. Same thing with "young pup". It's affectionate even if it means no quite housebroken yet. "Old crows", however, are nasty creatures. It's right up there with "harpy".

    Parent
    I'm still laughing. Goooood dog!!! (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    Using an object or animal (none / 0) (#172)
    by Lil on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:59:42 AM EST
    to describe someone is objectionable, but what makes it sexist is not just the word or label, but which group has traditionally been oppressed. Sexism hurts women a lot more than the other way around. Same with racism, as a white person, I may not like being called whitey, but no way it is the same as me using a racial slur towards AA. It aggravates me to see people always trying to make these comparisons as if they are the same thing. Let's see, d*ckhead or c*nt, which of these is symbolic of violence against half the human race?

    Parent
    If men were equally referred to as (none / 0) (#109)
    by ahazydelirium on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:15:05 AM EST
    crows or dogs or sluts, and the specific gendered image were absent, then (from a feminist perspective) it would likely be acceptable. However, in the words of Melissa McEwan from Shakesville, at that point it's just a race to the bottom. I would suggest this post.

    Parent
    I haven't, either (none / 0) (#191)
    by Nadai on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:28:14 AM EST
    Old bat, yes.  Not old crow.  Not that the nastiness isn't clear either way.

    Parent
    Old Crow (none / 0) (#206)
    by DFLer on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:08:21 PM EST
    My reference for that is a bourbon.

    Parent
    The tennis match... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:19:02 AM EST
    ...was OK, but it can't hold a candle to Dara Torres, IMO.  Go Dara--show the World what us 40 somethings are made of!!!

    'The 41-year-old Torres won the 50-meter freestyle Sunday night with another American record, giving her the chance to swim two individual events in Beijing.

    She's already done what no one thought possible, returning from her second retirement -- and just two years removed from having a child -- to reclaim her place as America's most dominant female sprinter. She'll be the oldest American ever to swim at the Olympics, but she wants so much more.

    "I can't sit here and lie and say, 'Oh, I'm just glad I'm going,'" said Torres, who'll be in her fifth Olympics. "I want a medal."'

    -AP

    Maybe both Obama and McCain (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:31:53 AM EST
    could run as all things to all people, by offering the vice-presidency to each other.

    Co-regents maybe (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:57:47 AM EST
    Could possibly work after the Bush Cover Up and Elimination of Rights gets passed. The bill IMO by bipartisan approval definitely helps solidifies the precedent that the president is above the law. The ultimate law of the land, maybe. What the heck, why not go the co-regent route?

    Parent
    Well, at least (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:14:38 AM EST
    it would pull Obama to the left on foreign policy...

    Parent
    Maybe Hill could grab the GOP nom (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:43:53 AM EST
    and she and Obama can cross select each other for VP.

    The we'd be back to the most votes win, only this time with eyes wide open on the Obama side.

    Parent

    Family get-together this weekend. Mother and (5.00 / 7) (#67)
    by Angel on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    sister still angry about the coronation of Obama and the sleezy way the media treated Hillary.  But laughing at how the media thinks we'll all "get over it" by November.  Never.

    Ivanesevic/Rafter in 2001 was better. (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Addison on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:01:39 AM EST


    Goran. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Addison on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:02:59 AM EST
    "Goran Šimun Ivanišević," that is.

    Parent
    FISA vote tomorrow (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by imhotep on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:02:50 AM EST
    Have you called your Senators to tell them to vote "no" on the FISA Amendments Act?
    "Yes" on Dodd-Feingold to strip telecom immunity from the bill.
    I'd like to see a straw poll sometime today on the projected outcome.
    Murray and Cantwell, both D-WA, are voting "no".

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:05:56 AM EST
    I called a couple of weeks ago. I guess I should call again to remind Webb that this time he won't have the excuse of the House won't pass it to use(He actually voted for the original Ugh). Il even call Warner although I am not expecting that to have any effect at all. He's been voting party line this cycle.

    Parent
    Obama and Abortion (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Andy08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:17:14 AM EST
    I recommend everyone to read these commentaries. They are excellent.  

    Not Buying it Either (Jennifer Rubin)

    Obama revisits Abortion (Jan Crawford Greenburg)

    Re: What Does Barack Obama Really Think About Abortion?
    (Jennifer Rubin)

    Jan Crawford Greenburg is a correspondent for ABC News' bureau in Washington DC. She covers the Supreme Court and provides legal analysis for ABC News. She is a graduate of the University of Chicago's law school and is a member of the New York bar.

    The U of C alum is not happy (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:57:30 AM EST
    it seems, with the Constitutional law "prof" at her alma mater:

    Now is it possible that Obama, a self-proclaimed constitutional law expert, had no idea what he was saying when he indicated that he disapproved of the mental health exception? I suppose. Or was he once again betting that no one would call him on a glaring instance of intellectual inconsistency? Ah, that's a workable theory. But if there were ever an issue in which both sides hang on every word and look for winks, nods and body language this is it.

    Then comes a "clarification" which is too mind-numbing to summarize. It's only real distress or depression which should be used to justify late term abortions, is I think what he means. Listen, you either are for or against the legal regime of Roe v. Wade. And if you are against a mental health justification (which is reduced to abortion on demand in the real world) you are against Roe. Obama, in an effort to pander to value voters made a hash of this, and I think has now retreated to his embrace of Roe as inviolate. This is lame for a non-lawyer -- it's embarrassing for a so-called constitutional law guru.

    I note in her bio that Crawford Greenburg has written an acclaimed book on the Supreme Court.  She probably even wrote for her law review, too. :-)

    Parent

    cx: Sorry, that's Rubin commenting (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:03:25 AM EST
    on Crawford Greenburg commenting on Obama.

    Somehow, this reminds me of the old days of Shepherdizing precedents, weaving through the maze of citations. . . .

    Parent

    I would just note (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:07:25 AM EST
    that your quote is actually from Jennifer Rubin, who comes at this issue from the anti-choice side.  She accurately recognizes this episode for what it was - a fairly clumsy attempt at a pander.

    Parent
    We were typing at the same time (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:10:27 AM EST
    I think -- but thanks.

    Parent
    Has anyone heard (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by delacarpa on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:08:43 AM EST
    that there are 8 superdelegates that have withdrawn from supporting Obama. Is this possible and who are they. Please let us know what you may have heard.

    Thanks

    I would like to know (none / 0) (#201)
    by americanincanada on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:47:01 AM EST
    this as well.

    Parent
    That Jazz Shaw piece was disturbing on (4.57 / 7) (#102)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:10:44 AM EST
    a number of levels, including the tasteless comparison of Hillary supporters as "crows" and "wraiths."

    Shaw seems to think that "the problem" is Hillary, when for so many who cannot bring themselves to commit to voting for Obama, "the problem" is Obama; had he made any attempt beyond lip-service unity rallies to incorporate the spirit and work ethic and focus on positions that Hillary embodied, there might not now be a "problem."  Were he not out there at least once a day pandering to yet another right-wing talking point, or blurring the lines between church and state, or setting himself up as the arbiter of what is and is not appropriate for women to do in making their reproductive choices, and doing the NAFTA cha-cha, and being totally and utterly silent on health care, we might not be bitterly clinging to the fact - yes, the fact - that Hillary Clinton was then and certainly would be now the better Democratic nominee.

    I can't help but feel both offended and amazed at the general blindness Shaw brings to the piece, in thinking that naming a VP now would, once and for all, shut Hillary up, and force people to come to terms with the fact that she is not part of the electoral equation.

    Maybe Shaw should contemplate that for many of us, the (D) next to Obama's name is not enough, that we don't much like being taken for granted on the theory that we have nowhere else to go, that we feel betrayed when our concerns and issues are shunted off to the side while Obama sells us out with proposals that do not remotely resemble what we consider to be core Democratic values, that we can no longer tolerate it when someone vows to stand up for what is right, and then when the time comes, fails to do so - for whatever weak and craven reason he condescends to explain to us.

    "The problem" is not Hillary, it is not those who voted for and supported her, it is with Barack Obama and with a Democratic leadership that failed its members.


    Nice! (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Lil on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:47:14 AM EST
    and I keep wanting to go full force and support Obama and then someone reminds me I "should just get over it" and 2 steps back we go.

    Parent
    I would stand by my thoughts (2.66 / 3) (#33)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:31:16 AM EST
    BTD, I am almost always in agreement with you but am still looking for what I would view as sexist. "Nipping crows"? If that's it, oversensitivity is becoming an issue.

    As for other bloggers...I don't read many so I would have no idea what those issues are. As for sexist though, I think calling that post sexist is a bit of a reach. Does it show an anti-Hillary flavor? Yes I would agree, but that doesn't make it sexist.

    One would suspect lots of low ratings on my original thoughts, which could be viewed as those nipping crows be they male or female.

    I don't think objecting to that phrase (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:35:07 AM EST
    is being oversensitive.

    Parent
    Yes Oversensitive (2.00 / 1) (#61)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:49:55 AM EST
    My thoughts would be... if nipping crows is sexist, is there any type of simile or metaphor that can be used without being considered sexist or racist. Seriously, if we are going to pick through every written word, nipping crows (crows are black) could equally be viewed as racist

    Colorful writing and the use of metaphors, simile, and yes even hyperbole is what makes reading enjoyable. We had two great candidates at the end and claiming racism or sexism at every turn of a phrase is disingenuous.

    Parent

    Surely you jest? (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:52:07 AM EST
    Are you really arguing that there is not another phrase that could have been used? REALLY? Are your language skills so limited?

    Parent
    If I were them (none / 0) (#141)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:33:58 AM EST
    I'd have tried to work it from the PUMA angle since after all this is the way the folks attacking Obama refers to themselves. Then again, I'd imagine they didn't do so because they know they have a problem and they don't want to legitimatize the grassroots effort of PUMAs.

    Hey it's better than bitter ol' hag right or stalker ex girlfriends? The Obama folks are improving.

    Parent

    I'm sure that when (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:52:52 AM EST
    Obama referred to Hillary's "claws coming out", he had something more housecat size in mind.

    Parent
    Blah, blah, blah. (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:55:19 AM EST
    You don't object to it because you don't care to understand it.

    Why continue to poke sticks into an issue you know was a problem in this election?

    Or would you rather that people stay angry?  Certainly that doesn't help Obama.  I'm surprised you don't understand that either.

    Parent

    "Grande Dame," "Demigoddess" (5.00 / 7) (#43)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:38:14 AM EST
    are names you can call many a Dem guy?  Sure, not exactly sexist -- but gendered speech, definitely, throughout this piece.  Paternalistic to the max in calling Clinton supporters pouty "children."

    And downright nasty with the repetition of the Obama campaign crap again: "you never know... you remember what happened to Bobby Kennedy."  About all that was missing was calling Clinton a racist again -- or maybe I missed it, as my eyes just glaze over when I see this stuff again.

    It seems that Obama supporters just can't get over it.

    Parent

    I focused on the use of "crow" (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:44:39 AM EST
    which I took to be a sexist slur.

    Parent
    And that would make you (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:48:29 AM EST
    absolutely right.

    Parent
    Yes, I agree on "crow," BTD (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:12:56 AM EST
    but also am trying to get the commenter to get off quibbling about one word when there are so many in the piece that are problematic -- as that, I think, supports your stance that the term "crow" was not a random act.:-)

    Parent
    Good point (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:16:58 AM EST
    Maybe I need sensitivity training. (2.00 / 1) (#92)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:07:59 AM EST
    I either continue to misread the Jazz Shaw post or you are mis-characterizing the statement. It refers to Hillary supporters, not Hillary's female supporters. I don't view Hillary supporters as solely women. Perhaps that is totally nonsexist of me.

    I did click on the link on the sexist nature of crows and do now see where you would or could be offended by the choice of words, but to think we need to click to check whether crow is sexist or racist makes me want to kill all the damn crows (but that would be anti-Native American).

    We need to get a grip.

    Parent

    I think you need (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:12:36 AM EST
    to learn about sexism in society yes. And also you need to stop acting foolish.

    The identification of older white women as being a particularly resistant voting bloc for Obama is well known.

    It is what makes the use of "crow" particularly offensive here.

    I have nothing more I can say to you on this.

    to me, you excuse the inexcusable.

    Parent

    Well,,. (none / 0) (#145)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:35:22 AM EST
    I'm glad on most issues we agree. No I've never heard old women referred to as crows but that obviously doesn't take away from its possible existence as a derogatory term.

    Perhaps it's a side effect of me being part of an extended family that is 90% female and all college educated, and not a one has ever acted like they were the lesser of anyone.

    Parent

    That's because they aren't (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:48:16 AM EST
    (the lesser of anyone). Nor should they be treated or talked to as such. I'm not certain why you put in the college educated qualifier.

    Parent
    No qualifier meant (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:02:47 AM EST
    I agree, no one should be treated as such. Just trying to explain why perhaps I never saw sexism growing up. It wasn't meant as a qualifier, My mother graduated from college in 1944. Call her a woman ahead of her time. She was a working mom before the term came into existence.

    Parent
    It is great to love your mom but not so great (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:39:43 AM EST
    to distort history. Even if we ignore all the women who worked, hard physically labor intensive jobs, for generations prior to 1944 to feed their families, it is hard to ignore the massive numbers of working moms prior to that date.

    A multitude of new jobs were created with the beginning of World War II. The tools of war had to be manufactured, and the defense factories were in desperate need of laborers. Women now had the opportunity to become part of the work force. Before the war, it was uncommon for women to work outside the home. During the war, about half of all American women worked outside their homes. The work of women during World War II proved that they could be trained to do the same industrial work as men. The number of working women rose from 14.6-million in 1941 to 19.4 million in 1944.

    Women were motivated not only by patriotism and the desire for high wages, but by the sense of community they gained from participation in a huge undertaking. Without their labors, the U.S. war economy would never have been able to produce the military hardware needed to win the war. Their presence in the workplace sparked the beginning of a change not only in the working roles of men and women, but in the living styles and home duties of both sexes. Link

    While your mom may have been the avant guard of college educated women joining the work force, the factory workers beat her out by a few years in the working mom category and their efforts set the ground work for her to be able to have a choice.    

    Parent

    Training wouldn't help... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by katana on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:20:15 AM EST
    Maybe I need sensitivity training.

    Where I come from, this is called sh*t-kicking, and everybody knows it for what it is.  

    We need to get a grip.

    If there's one thing I've learned here, it's that anybody who tells me (or anyone else) to "get a grip," or "get over it," is so besotted with his own superiority that he's a walking, talking joke.  

    Not to mention a dissembler.  The Jazz Shaw piece was a mysogynistic rant masquerading as political analysyis.  In fact, the reference to "crows" was the least of it.  In the space of a few hundred words, he called Senator Clinton's supporters (and believe me, he meant her female supporters) every name he could think of without resorting either to profanity (the true dead-enders, the sullen bunch, the smiley hypocrites).  No he didn't call them b*tches, nor did he allude to their cackling or their menstrual cycles.  But he made his point repeatedly, mocking Senator Clinton as the Grand Dame of the Democrats and her supporters' Chosen Demigoddess.  (And, of course, she is always "Hillary," never Senator Clinton.)

    By the way, Jazz Shaw knows his audience: the commenters just loved his take on things, and usually went him one better in insulting both Senator Clinton and her supporters.

    Like you.

    Parent

    Your insinuation would be mistaken (none / 0) (#203)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:57:44 AM EST
    Here is the problem with your argument. I voted for Hillary, and wanted Hillary, and given the choice today would still vote for Hillary. The reading you are trying to do between the lines can lead to false assumptions.

    I don't know anything about the author and think he did a poor job. Expressing his "issue" could have easily been done without sounding anti-Hillary but that doesn't make his point less valid.

    Agreed his method lacks sensibility, but that seems to be the method these days of self described political pundits. They try to be the news. It pays more money. To paraphrase John Stewart, political punditry is just theater.

    Parent

    I provided a link on the usage of "crow" (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    I suggest you click on it.

    Parent
    Becoming an issue? (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:43:49 AM EST
    Oversensitivity has been an issue for some time.

    It seems ya can't open your mouth these days without somebody taking issue with something.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:57:28 AM EST
    I mean I'm sure females "sensitivity" has nothing to do with the fact that they make less than men in the workforce(and apparently this OK)  and had their reproductive rights exploited and eroded(partial birth, BC pills are not required on formularies and increase in those BC pll costs).

    Perhaps we're tired of busting our butts and being told to head to the back of the bus or place ourselves dircetly under its wheels.

    Parent

    There's a little proverb about that (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Nadai on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:42:36 AM EST
    If one man calls you an a$$, ignore him.  If two men call you an a$$, think about it.  If three men call you an a$$, get a saddle.

    Parent
    And vice versa (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:45:43 AM EST
    You are taking issue with my objection to calling women "crows."

    You have a PC all your own.

    Parent

    Nah.... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    I'm taking issue with people constantly taking issue.  I'm taking issue with the boy that cried wolf.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:56:21 AM EST
    you have your own PC. You object to language objecting to sexist, racist or bigoted language.

    It is an orthodoxy all its own. A pretty conventional one. I know you like to style yourself as some type of iconoclast, but I hate to burst your bubble, but yours is a pretty conventional right wing position.

    Parent

    I don't object to your language.... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:04:00 AM EST
    I object to the objection.  Though I do think you could use more colorful analogies and controversial slang, your objections are kind of bland:)

    I fully support your right to object, I just think your nuts.  If thats right-wing so be it.

    Parent

    It is right wing (none / 0) (#101)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:10:11 AM EST
    I may have to ... (2.25 / 4) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:14:49 AM EST
    take an opposing view here

    There is a lot of validity to the post by Jazz Shaw, with the exception being his closing. I don't see any rush in naming a VP whether it is Hillary or anyone else. I am still hoping for Hillary but think Bill is a bit of a problem as to what to do with him.

    This should have (and could have been) written without an anti-Hillary bent. As for some of Hillary's supporters however (and I emphasize "some"), the post really does nail it. It just does a poor job of stating the obvious.

    Bill (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by eric on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:31:56 AM EST
    is a problem?  Why?

    Parent
    I'm so (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:50:22 AM EST
    freaking sick of this meme.  Yes, he was a real problem in Aspen (Jeralyn's post), wasn't he.

    Parent
    Don't take me wrong (2.00 / 1) (#113)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:15:53 AM EST
    I have no problem with Bill at all. Indeed given the opportunity I can think of many places where he would be tremendously useful. The United Nations for one. You won't hear any anti Bill Clinton rants from me but I'm not in the room making the decisions.

    Our two previously-Dem Presidents Carter and Clinton march to the beat of their own drummer. I would have it no other way.

    Parent

    Well, thanks for that anyway. (none / 0) (#121)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:20:52 AM EST
    How About This? (none / 0) (#104)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:11:12 AM EST
    Setting aside any questions of his own behavior or things he may or may not do, ways he may act etc, what about just the situation of having him, a former POTUS as VP husband?

    Not to mention the media's fascination with scrutinizing him and dissecting his words and speculating about his moods and behavior. And snarking him fairly routinely.

    Even without being a former POTUS, he's a larger than life figure who attracts (for better and worse) a lot of spotlight.

    Parent

    This argument again? (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:31:31 AM EST
    Ya gotta get over it.  Move On.  Oops, sorry, I forgot that now Move On is on Obama's list of no-nos, too.

    Parent
    Le3t me see if I get this straight (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:16:08 AM EST
    You OPPOSE objecting to sexist language and to falsely characterizing other posts?

    Really?

    Did you read what I wrote as my objection to the post?

    Parent

    Yeah, on top of everything else, (5.00 / 7) (#42)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:38:02 AM EST
    this creepo writer JazzShow perpetuates the smear that Hillary's hanging around (still) just in case Obama is knocked off.

    Personally, I think that if a blog presumes to style itself "Moderate Voice", it has an obligation not to publish garbage that engages the vilest kind of smear.

    Parent

    A regular poster @ TMV (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by wurman on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    Jazz Shaw is an Internet marketing professional, author of unseen technical manuals, US Navy veteran and former member of the Republican Party from 1976 until 2005, now a registered independent. A veteran of several political campaigns in New York, he now pursues his avocational interests as a pundit wherever his singing will earn him a supper.


    Parent
    Another Obamacan, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:33:52 AM EST
    The number of former Republicans backing Obama on the blogs is just, well, weird to me.  And worrisome.

    Parent
    Another republican? (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:33:55 AM EST
    Let's see there's Arianna, Markos and others.  Did they take over the Democratic party when it became uncool to be republicans?  From this campaign cycle, it sure looks like it.


    Parent
    GOoPerz immigrating is tooooo much (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by wurman on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    Starts to make the so-called "centrist" maneuvers look more like a raggedy right subterfuge.

    Perhaps the shift is actually a stealthy finesse.

    Soon, very soon, we may have one-party government.

    Paranoia cocktails to be served shortly--it's gotta' be 5 o'clock somewhere--much better kickapoo joy juice than the "kewlade."

    Parent

    Frankly, we've had one party (4.50 / 2) (#189)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:27:56 AM EST
    operating under two names since the '80s.  For the most part at least.

    Parent
    Most amazing match I ever seen so far. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Saul on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:28:11 AM EST
    I am so glad Nadal got it. Finally  I know that Federer is very good but he comes off a little arrogant to me. It was Nadal's time. I understand this was the longest match in Wimbledon history.

    ARGHHHHHH.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:54:22 AM EST
    I tried to watch the match.  But, when the last rain delay came, I just assumed it wouldn't resume until Monday.  So, I missed the last two sets.   darn it....

    Parent
    I am, too. (none / 0) (#16)
    by liminal on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:11:41 AM EST
    He was charming in the immediate aftermath; I loved the way he climbed over the barriers to hug his family, then walked along the stadium structures to greet the Spanish royals (?) who were sitting in the royal box.  Absolutely charming.  

    Afterwards, we watched the Monty Python episode where blancmanges from outer space turn everyone in England into Scotsmen so that they can win Wimbledon.  

    Parent

    It was the longest Mens Final in Wimbledon (none / 0) (#26)
    by JoeA on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:16:35 AM EST
    history,  not the longest match.

    In 2006 there was a mens doubles match which finished 5-7 6-3 6-7 (5-7) 6-3 23-21 and took 6 hours and 7 minutes.  The Federer Nadal final this year was just short of 5 hours.

    Parent

    Grateful to see 2 sets thx to my watchdog baby-bro (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    ... who's fanatical about tennis, keeping his eye on the delay.

    Two great players and distinctive styles. As an athlete bringing something unique to his sport, Nadal's combination of power and grace is so riveting. (Also, I have no opinion on his haunting beauty.)

    Parent

    How dare they! (none / 0) (#14)
    by Lahdee on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:08:58 AM EST
    Boo to DNC and the Obama campaign for putting the profitability of the networks in jeopardy! Now that Invesco Field is on the radar the networks are fretting.
    This creates issues for the networks for whom the costly setup, transmission and overall operation of the first three days and nights now might mean moving production of the final night to the Denver Broncos football stadium. Workspaces, anchor locations and all that goes along with a remote network news production would have to be shuffled for the final night.
    Poor b**tards.

    Not just "on the radar"... (none / 0) (#24)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:15:20 AM EST
    'Barack Obama will give his acceptance speech at Invesco Field at Mile High, where there is room for more than 75,000 people, Democrats announced this morning.

    A special block of "community" tickets will be reserved for Colorado residents, with details on how to get them coming in the next couple of weeks.'

    -Rocky Mountain News

    Parent

    Yeah, they have a donation "request" (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    email out. Contribute for a chance to win a trip to the show.

    This just feels wrong.

    Parent

    Good for the neo-hippies.... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:12:17 AM EST
    why is the man bothering these folks?  Link  Seems to me these people just wanna camp and do their hippie thang...and they ain't hurtin' nobody.

    Good for the Rainbows for sticking up for their own, not that it got them anywhere, but I admire the courage regardless.

    Just when I think I'm out they PULLLL me back in (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:31:52 AM EST
    Honestly, simply setting oneself to ignore, completely, the mind-manure of "Celeb News" means a lot gets in anyway due to the unremitting mass bombardment.

    Therefore, it's simply good D to take prudent measures to apply special seals and precautions (eg, blocking celeb-news specialty channels).

    And yet even that won't be enough some days:

    Cutie pie niece: Aunty, Mom says come look at the trocity.

    ::: sigh :::

    (Madonna reveals her worst outfits ever to US. Jeez, Mads take a frackin day off sometime.)

    a sub topic from last night (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:37:33 AM EST
    if you were in line for a promotion and your best friend told the hiring manager that you said something inappropriate in front of other employees.....

    Or lets say, same situation, your best friend tells everyone you lack the judgment to handle the new position.

    Which would be the larger act of betrayal?

    I thought about this more than once and given we now live in a world where macaca moments rule the day, then maybe its a closer call than I realized at first.

    fricken amazing match (none / 0) (#41)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    and to think around the middle of the third set I was thinking, well, this is pretty boring, nadal's got it and it's over in a few minutes. I was thinking of skipping the rest. OMG, then the fun started. Just wow.

    I inferred (none / 0) (#55)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:48:26 AM EST
    that Jazz Shaw was speaking about the posters moreso than the you, BTD.

    That's a completely (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:04:12 AM EST
    groundless assertion. There's not a single word in JazzShow's comment that would naturally be taken to include the commenters.

    He says this:

    They recognize that Obama is the nominee (at least for now) but seem to take a masochistic delight in reporting on every poll showing problems for the Illinois Senator or every story indicating challenges for his electoral hopes.

    And it's clear that in the past BTD has 1) reported on polls showing problems for Obama and 2) highlighted stories indicating challenges for him (indeed BTD does so in the very post linked to by JazzShow).

    We get that you are an apologist for Obama. But why must you be an apologist even for the unseemly likes of JazzShow?

    Parent

    I have reported on polling (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:08:00 AM EST
    and do highlight challenges for Obama (ironically, the TMV post in question is also writing about a challenge for Obama), but NOT in that post I wasn't.

    Parent
    Well, for what it's worth, (none / 0) (#118)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:18:21 AM EST
    I would have interpreted your original post as highlighting a challenge to Obama, when you say,

    Tiem to stop the triangulation Senator Obama. You are creating opportunities for negative attacks against you.

    Which reiterates a point made by Morris in the story you linked to.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:26:09 AM EST
    The challenge, such as it is, is to stop doing a stupid thing.

    The challenge is to do nothing. It is to NOT create a problem that should not exist.

    Interestingly, the handwringing about a "close election" is in the TMV post, not from me.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:50:48 AM EST
    if that were the case, then it should have been stated.

    Frankly, I seriously doubt it.

    Parent

    Perhaps you are right (none / 0) (#130)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:25:11 AM EST
    I reread what he said and perhaps I was mistaken on that point.  

    Parent
    Former FL Sen Bob Graham for VP (none / 0) (#64)
    by Exeter on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:51:56 AM EST
    Would be a good choice for Obama:

    1. Graham's older / long resume and notoriously detailed-oriented persona compliments well with the perception that Obama is too young / inexperienced,  aloof and not detailed-oriented. Similar to the way Cheney made Bush a better overall package (perception-wise).

    2. He's a popular politician from Florida, a state that if Obama wins, he is guaranteed victory.

    3. He is one of the few politicians that has a record that mirrors on Obama on Iraq. There will not be any awkward comparisons of McCain with Obama's own VP.

    4. He's got good economic and national security credentials.


    B-O-R-I-N-G!!!! (none / 0) (#73)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:55:37 AM EST
    Bill Nelson would hold more sway, I believe.

    Parent
    Right? (none / 0) (#76)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:56:50 AM EST
    Graham didn't want to invade Iraq.  He did want to take on Hamas and Iran instead.  That may have been even worse for us.


    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#95)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:08:19 AM EST
    Bob Graham wanted to take on Hezbollah.

    Parent
    my bad (none / 0) (#98)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:09:40 AM EST
    still stupid though, since they didn't do 9/11 anymore than Iraq did.

    Parent
    You say Sunni; (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:15:31 AM EST
    I say Shia.

    You say Hezbollah; I say Hamas.

    Potaaato, Potahto.

    Let's call the whole thing off.

    Parent

    You got it backwards. (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by tree on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:48:33 AM EST
    Hamas is Sunni. Hezbollah is Shia.

    Parent
    excellent idea (none / 0) (#134)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:27:55 AM EST
    We Need for Dark Humor (none / 0) (#149)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    Now that's some good stuff..lol

    Parent
    A positive action instead (none / 0) (#70)
    by RalphB on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:53:32 AM EST
    of the usual election wondering.  Just watched a couple of clips of Bill Clinton at Aspen Ideas over at bythefault.  In the second, he asks people to call or write their congressman and get them to support a new way to deliver food aid to poor countries.  Apparently, it's something he and Bush agree on but congress is worried about their ag pork.  The clips are worth a listen.


    Since the human race... (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:07:10 AM EST
    is made up of two genders, of course some insults will be gender specific.

    Do men not have gender specific insults all their own?  

    terll me of an insult (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    that insults a man for being a man? there is no such insult.

    There are many that insults based on a woman being a woman. "Crow" is one of them.

    Parent

    Hmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:15:23 AM EST
    "sperm donor"? :)

    Parent
    consider the worst insults for a man (5.00 / 5) (#120)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:19:49 AM EST
    Basically they infer that he is acting like a sterotypical women (consider Carville's insult of Obama about cojones). Even insults of men mostly insult women.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Steve M on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:24:19 AM EST
    Exactly right.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#133)
    by hookfan on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:27:35 AM EST
    How about "big dick"? I think you are right about crows, but think you miss this. I've never heard a woman called a "dick". "Prick" would work as well unless one works around needles-- err that reminds me about another insult regarding being a needle something. . .

    Parent
    Ha. Show me a guy (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:34:52 AM EST
    who really resents a description of his genitalia as oversized. :-)

    Parent
    Well, it depends. . . (none / 0) (#155)
    by hookfan on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM EST
    I've seen some rather long needles=) Needless to say if a needle is bent or limp it may well have lost its ability to function. And for needles, it's supposed to be about how they are used, not their size!

    Parent
    Would you rather be called a dick (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:42:33 AM EST
    or a p**sy?

    I rest my case.

    Parent

    I try to avoid being called either one.... (none / 0) (#166)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:54:43 AM EST
    but I've acted like a d*ck before and I've acted like a p*ssy before, and been called both before...accurately in some cases and unwarranted in others.

    Thats why we have these terms in our vernacular...do you mean to tell me you've never come across someone acting like d*ck or a p*ssy before? Look at the executive branch of our govt for christs sake....talk about a bunch of d*cks and p*ssies.

    Parent

    Point! (none / 0) (#167)
    by hookfan on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    But my response would be it depends on who is doing the calling. If a man hating feminist called me a p#ssy, I would likely take it as a compliment. Likewise, if a misogynist called me a "dick" that likely would be a compliment too. Double negatives are supposed to be positives, or is that limited to language?

    Parent
    Change the word from "dick" (none / 0) (#182)
    by hookfan on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:16:15 AM EST
    to "weenie" and there isn't much difference in impact. However it's strange that that which is most involved in life generation is hurled as an insult for weakness.

    Parent
    Adequate when describing males (none / 0) (#136)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:29:52 AM EST
    normally gets a heated male reaction. Even there, it has to be used with other male qualifiers.

    Parent
    Pig, Dog, Neantherdal, D*ckhead.... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:40:30 AM EST
    are all terms used exclusively for men and could all be considered offensive to men, I guess.

    To me?  Again, these terms can be accurate or not.  A man can be a pig, a woman can be a crow....not all men are pigs nor are all women crows.  But sometimes the shoe fits...

    Parent

    So you think (none / 0) (#164)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    it's okay to call folks names and  belittle them and you think it will net results to poke sticks at a hornets nest so to speak?

    Nice.

    I hope that new coalition works out because it appears bridge burning is commencing.

    Parent

    I think its ok.... (none / 0) (#168)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:56:48 AM EST
    to call a d*ck a d*ck, and a b*tch a b*tch...you bet your arse.

    Reasonable people will disagree of course, for instance I think George Bush is a major-league d*ck, others may think otherwise.

    Parent

    Well as I said (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:30:39 AM EST
    I hope your "new" coalition is already built because from where I am standing offending folks by calling them names isn't going to win them over. As a matter of fact, I expect that every little dig is going to come at the expense of the Democratic party(and at the expense of Obama as its standard bearer). The group of people being refered to as "crows" (present company included) aren't afraid of firing back and if its a war that's wanted I'm sure the "crows" will be more than happy to oblige.

    You keep working that fissure though. I'd say it's working on being just as big as the conservative/evangelical fissure.

    Let's hope that since Obama supporters  skipped "How to Win Friends and Influence People" that the campaign isn't forced to write "How We Managed to Lose a Sure Thing in 2008" after the fact.

    Parent

    Holy smokes, how did this become (none / 0) (#204)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:02:17 PM EST
    evidence that Obama supporters are creating and maintaining the "fissure" in the Democratic party?  This thread spun off to words are insults to each gender and suddenly it's proof that Obama supporters are all jerks and the party deserves to lose and here's the big old justification for Hillary supporters to dump the party.

    Wow.  WTF is going on?

    Parent

    How does the other (less than) half (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:14:39 AM EST
    of the human race fare in this piece, kdog?  See any gendered terms for your (less than) half there?

    Parent
    Looking for a replacement dog. (none / 0) (#112)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:15:49 AM EST
    Livestock guarding dogs are looking to be the type I want.  My current Dog(purebred mutt with 1/4 Great Pyrenees - a livestock guarder) has completely spoiled me.  No longer do I want a dog that needs me to tell it what to do.  I want a dog that can act independently of me.

    This probably means going purebred in order to get the specific temperament I want.  So it's either looking for rescues or reserving a puppy from a litter.  Tchouvatch(Kuvac) is a Slovenian/Slovak breed.  I may have to go to TX check it out.  Very rare stateside.  A typical flock guardian with the added bonus of being good with children.

    A breed is no guarantee (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:35:11 AM EST
    of what you're looking for.  

    For instance, I have 2 labs, but only one with the hunting instinct some like to see in a lab.  My male could care less about wildlife, prefers a nice pleasant walk, thank you.  My female would sell her soul if she could get just one bird or squirrel.  She keeps trying, but I have a feeling her soul is in no danger of being sold ;-).

    Your best bet is to go through rescue and see if you can find the personality you're looking for.  Yes, the second breed you've mentioned is quite rare.

    Parent

    My parents just did this for a Beagle (none / 0) (#194)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:34:06 AM EST
    Mom didn't want a puppy and wanted to know the pup's personality etc. They are very happy with their new addition :)

    My Dal is also a rescue. I wasn't planning on getting a dog, but she had other ideas, lol!~ I had been taking care of her at the shelter for about a month, so I had a good idea of what I was getting into . . .

    Parent

    Check with ranchers etc (none / 0) (#188)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:24:09 AM EST
    if you want a true LGD. Do you want a working dog or pet? Have you ever dealt with a Tchouvatch(Kuvac)?

    I do know one person (off the top of my head) that has LGDs. I'd look for a few online groups to participate in. If I see the person, I'll ask for some links if you like?


    Parent

    The (none / 0) (#115)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:16:26 AM EST
    Association of Old Crows, has a word for the use of crows.  

    I did watch Nadal-Federer (none / 0) (#153)
    by sancho on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:43:19 AM EST
    Great match. And some of those serve those boys hit were almost as hard as Venus Wiliams' serve! Hers was a great match too. The cream rises to the top at Wimbldedon.

    Some men resent.... (none / 0) (#173)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:01:36 AM EST
    being called a dog aka a beast only interested in eating, sleeping and copulating.

    Me?  I don't give a sh*t.  Some men are only interested in eating, sleeping and screwing...in fact somedays thats all I wanna do:)

    er (none / 0) (#178)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:08:18 AM EST
    Dog is not the term I have heard for only wanting to eat sleep and screw. The more appropriate term is stud, and what are women called who want to do the same? Whores.

    Double standard, if you ask me.

    Parent

    Exception: "dirty dog" (none / 0) (#176)
    by hookfan on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:04:45 AM EST
    is not necessarily complimentary to men-- well maybe if one is a politician because it is accurate!

    Another exception: (none / 0) (#195)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:37:18 AM EST
    Big Dog.  Complimentary re Bill Clinton from what I've observed...even admiring.

    Parent
    I got an unpleasant spam just now. (none / 0) (#205)
    by MarkL on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:03:19 PM EST
    The heading was "McCain suffers heart attack", and the content was that Obama supports gay marriage.

    Obama affect on the markets (none / 0) (#207)
    by samsguy18 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:41:32 PM EST
     I was listening to WLS 890 while stuck in a horrendous traffic jam here in Chicago. The commentators felt the steady decline of the market over the last month is tied to the Obama nomination.

    Actually... (none / 0) (#208)
    by pie on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:53:52 PM EST
    Hamas is Sunni. Hezbollah is Shia.

    If you're singing, it sounds better the other way, politics aside.  :)

    It seems a lot of people got bent out of shape (none / 0) (#209)
    by scribe on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:33:42 PM EST
    when I noted the actual mobbing behavior of real, feathered crows and compared it to the metaphoric usage in the article BTD was defending.

    #1 - I've never heard of (pick an adjective) women being described as crows.  And, I'm pretty much versed in most of the obscure and not-so-obscure usages in English.  I spent years working for/with a lawyer who collected words and usages and thought nothing was more fun than a usage/definition contest.  I often won, much to that lawyer's chagrin.

    #2 - I was much more concerned that the description of crows used in the article was a racist swipe, the crow (actually, magpie) being occasionally used as a metaphoric character for African-Americans.

    #3 - I have often heard and seen the term "crone", often modified with "cackling", "old" or "wizened" (or some combination) used as a derogatory reference to women.  Big surprise - it sounds kind of like "crow" and might be confused for it.

    #4 - If one wanted to use a metaphoric reference which would be simultaneously derogatory to women, avian (i.e., bird-related), and involving lots of noise and swarming or mobbing behavior, then the most obvious one is "harpies".  Those mythological creatures were female, part-bird, made a loud shrieking cry, came in large groups, and made life hell for the men they chose to set upon.

    Since the article we've all been talking about didn't refer to harpies but rather referred to crows, I'm satisfied that the author was not being intentionally derogatory to women, but rather wanted to criticize the behavior of those not-getting-behind Obama.

    And, as to those who'd demand the perfect Democrat (not-Obama) instead of the putative Democratic nominee (Obama), get over it.  I wanted Edwards and stated, way back when, that I could live with either Clinton or Obama if Edwards were to drop out.  Still feel that way.  

    Because, simply, I do not want to be dealing with another four or eight years of whomever McCain defaults to as his vice-president and staff, running the country further into the crapper.  I mean, do you really think for a minute that that doddering old wreck who is McCain is going to be able to handle the day-to-day demands of the Presidency?  Maybe you'd like Bobby Jindal to show up on your front doorstep with his Home Exorcism (R) kit* to remind the women and feminists among you that your place really is barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen and if you won't shut up, first we'll exorcise your demons and, if that doesn't work, we'll waterboard you?

    Or, for Mitt "Can't even lie straight in bed" Romney to take the lessons he learned torturing his Irish Setter and turn them loose on you and yours?  I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer started on cats and Mittster on dogs....  Who's bigger?

    Or, for Rudy the Thug Giuliani to keep his close friend and confidant Mukasey working on turning the FBI from a law-enforcement agency into a secret police force?  And sending out the guys who shout "it's Giuliani Time!" and ram a busted plunger up your behind, for being dark-skinned outside a club?

    Get a clue, people.
    -
    * Home exorcisms are not approved by the Catholic Church, but who cares what they think?  I mean, if you're a fundie, you got a direct line to God and everything you do is O.K.

    Easy does it (none / 0) (#210)
    by Lora on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:58:27 PM EST
    I certainly applaud fighting sexism in all forms, and certainly Hillary and her followers have had way more than their fair share.

    However, difficult though it may be for BTD to believe, I and apparently several other well-educated and reasonably well-read folks have not heard the word "crow" used before as a sexist slur.

    Indeed, enough people apparently have heard it or seen it for it to be listed in the handbook linked in the post by BTD, and now I am aware.

    The point is, perhaps we might give otherwise fair-minded people the benefit of the doubt when they use sexist (or racist or other) language when it is out-of-character for them to do so?  How about a private heads-up to ask if they were aware they were being offensive, give THEM the link, and ask them to change the wording?

    Otherwise our champions against sexism may be in for some collective groaning which might dilute their message a bit.