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Are We Safer Now?

In Sunday night's Democratic debate, Senator Hillary Clinton said:

“I believe we are safer than we were,” Mrs. Clinton said. “We are not yet safe enough, and I have proposed over the last year a number of policies that I think we should be following.”

I believe Senator Clinton misspoke. I think what she meant to say is that the United States has done much more since 9/11 to provide against terrorist attacks on our transportation systems and other domesic targets, but that does not translate into being "safer." Indeed, we could be doing everything possible and still be less safe. But, in fact, we are not doing everything possible. Rather, as many have argued, the MAIN thing we are doing, the Iraq Debacle, has made us less safe.

Senator Clinton's advisors tried to explain away Senator Clinton's comments:

Advisers and supporters of Mrs. Clinton said yesterday that she was not endorsing the Bush administration’s strategy against terrorism, but highlighting the improved efforts of Americans on the front lines to detect and deter terrorist activity since 9/11. They said that Mrs. Clinton also thought the war in Iraq had been a distraction from the fight against terrorism, but that, day to day, people are safer than they were.

This explanation makes things worse as far as I am concerned. The Iraq War is more than a distraction - it is a motivation for the recruitment of terrorists. It has aliented the world who simply will not cooperate with us in the global war on terror. It is, in my view, the major obstacle to a more effective global war on terror. If Senator Clinton does not understand this, then she has little grasp of the national security implications, the deeply negative national security implications, of the Iraq Debacle.

One of the main reasons I hate debates is because the substance of what is said and whether what is said is right or wrong is rarely convered. There is no debate of ideas. It is a horserace debate. And the comments of the Clinton team demonstrate that that is how they think about these issues as well:

“I think the vast majority of Democratic primary voters, and Americans, would agree with Senator Clinton,” said a campaign spokesman, Howard Wolfson. “I think most Americans, for instance, would think that air travel is safer today than on Sept. 10.”

That is the Clinton measuring stick apparently. Whether it is right or wrong is not what matters, but will it help or hurt Sen. Clinton with the voters. And that stinks. But that's life.

I say this all the time but I think folks do not absorb it - pols or pols. They do what they do. For activists and supporters to put them on pedestals leads to one of two things - disappontment or intellectual dishonesty.

Here's my question, what motivated Senator Clinton to say what she did? What was the political calculus? Because, frankly, I do not understand her POLITICAL thinking in that answer.

< Wednesday Open Thread | Why Rudy Believes The Iraq War Was Right and Supports War Against Iran >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Careful, talex, you could hurt yourself (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:24:56 PM EST
    trying to backpedal that fast.

    If it can be called (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:03:10 PM EST
    non-partisan, talex will support it. He truly believes that people are sick of partisanship and want to see the Dems giving in to the GOP rather than fight, even though the only partisanship we've seen for 2 decades now is GOP partisanship.

    What he doesn't understand is that many people are very sick of triangulating from the likes of HRC. She's all about having her cake and eating it too in order to try to win over both sides at once.

    Win over the GOPpers? Just say Bush has made some progress. It sounds good, after all, even if 'progress' only means going from disastrous to deplorable. Win over the left? Say that the progress he's made isn't enough. Firm but fair, right? Pablum to a triangulator like talex.

    But no one but a fool is fooled by that rhetoric.

    no one but a fool is fooled (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:13:19 PM EST
    And talex.

    On second thought, you're right. No one but a fool is fooled.

    [ Parent ]

    Capacity to reason? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:52:59 PM EST
    I have seen little capacity to reason from you. Frankly, you are spectacularly stupid. So stupid that your head must hurt. Try Tylenol.

    There is a reason that (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:00:23 PM EST
    talex doesn't respond to me. Everytime he does I take him apart and he is afraid It'll happen again if he engages me. He doesn't realize that he is taking himself apart.

    He needs to go back to whoever sent him here to try to accomplish whatever it is he is trying to accomplish and tell them they need to send someone more competent because he is not up to the task and is wrecking their reputation along with his own.

    [ Parent ]

    You have more energy (none / 0) (#77)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:02:51 PM EST
    for it than I do. I just feel like a sucker for ever thinking talex could mend his ways and become an honest debater.

    [ Parent ]
    It's not you (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:08:01 PM EST
    I've been doing this to them for a long time. I wasn't always able to, and many times get caught still.

    [ Parent ]
    Everything he says is designed to (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:26:39 PM EST
    disrupt and divert and turn discussion away from the facts of the situation described in the thread post and create confusion.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:29:03 PM EST
    I don't know what motivates him exactly. Is it dislike of BTD? Fear of what BTD has to say, especially re funding?

    Either way, I won't get fooled again.

    [ Parent ]

    I speculated last week (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:01:28 PM EST
    that he was a Hoyer staffer. In any case, I'm back to ignoring him again.

    [ Parent ]
    If so, Hoyer needs to work on his (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:08:12 PM EST
    people judgment skills and hire more competetent staffers.

    [ Parent ]
    Denying The People's Will On Iraq (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:14:45 PM EST
    Make no mistake, Levin, Hoyer and others like them in the Democratic caucus are slowing movement toward unity in support of withdrawal. They are undermining the ability of their party to clarify the lines of debate and force wavering Republicans -- like Senators Susan Collins, John Sununu and Norm Coleman -- to either take an antiwar stand or face re-election defeat in 2008.
    From The Nation, May 26

    [ Parent ]
    This (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:53:09 PM EST
    does. It might sound trite, but that's what it is, IMO. The lies and deceptions have a purpose - to divert and confuse. They don't even care if they are caught in them - that's even better, in fact, because it serves the purpose.

    [ Parent ]
    It's part of (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:00:23 PM EST
    the assault on reason and logic.

    [ Parent ]
    That's one of the things he wants, I think. (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:05:30 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Whatever became of BTD's assertion all should (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:55:45 PM EST
    ignore the obvious site-disrupters?  Yes, I know he doesn't do it, but responding and reading the response is so very time-consuming and acommplishes nada.  Kind of like arguing with a determined young, loquacious child.

    [ Parent ]
    I commented on this (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:59:16 PM EST
    elsewhere. Talex had a bunch of comments deleted and was threatened with a banning. After that, talex seemed to behave himself. So I was willing to engage him at that point.

    But he very soon went back to the lying. So I've told him I'm done with him. I won't be bothered with his stupidity after today.

    [ Parent ]

    Very detrimental to the site's (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:33:05 PM EST
    ability to reach out to the people holding the power of the purse.  Shouldn't probably say that out loud though.

    [ Parent ]
    No. You should. Loudly. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:36:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Pretty quick response, eh? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 07, 2007 at 07:43:15 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hi folks (none / 0) (#97)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:43:26 PM EST
    We've been trying to not feed the trolls here for a long time. We've even made pacts about it ... but can't resist at swinging at the low hanging fruit:-(

    teledex and Ms Devorce are just the latest additions.

    Since the trolls who obviously and consistently violate TL's rules are still allowed to comment I can only conclude that hitcounts and ad streams make up more of the site's income than contributions.

    JMHO.

    [ Parent ]

    Since I just had (none / 0) (#120)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:03:25 PM EST
    a couple comments deleted, I'm thinking of packing it in for this place. If trolls like talex and jim are allowed to post their garbage without being banned, while my comments start getting deleted I see little point in continuing.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 08:35:20 PM EST
    There was one comment you made where jim had baited you into directly calling him stupid that I saw, that was later deleted, and any downthread replies to it including your own would have been deleted with it. They'll try to pi** you off enough and bait you into calling them names, and do it on purpose to get you so frustrated you say things like "I'm thinking of packing it in". It's one of their troll tactics.

    [ Parent ]
    Stick Around (none / 0) (#124)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:00:36 PM EST
    You get used to the occasional deletion.

    [ Parent ]
    Dude, you're preachin' to the choir (none / 0) (#126)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:42:36 PM EST
    If trolls like talex and jim are allowed to post their garbage without being banned, while my comments start getting deleted I see little point in continuing.

    I agree. And it's not like there aren't other venues.

    I recommend:
    ThinkProgress
    TalkingPointsMemo
    AmericaBlog
    Welcome to Pottersville
    skippy
    Edgeing

    And my favs (because I post there):
    Vidiotspeak
    SteveAudio

    Just google, link and welcome to the world of reality.

    p.s. we let ppj and talex post there ... they just have to follow the site rules.

    [ Parent ]

    Are We Safer? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:40:55 PM EST
    That is an idiotic question that means nothing and largely refers to a state of mind. It cannot ever be concretely answered especially in the context of terror attacks. By its nature a terror attack is a surprise and unpredictable. In that context we are as safe as we have ever been.

    The rest is tangential, speculative and purely rhetorical.

    Do we have more enemies than we did before 9/11 would be a better question as it bears directly on things that we have some control over, namely the Iraq war.

    The answer to that question is a resounding yes.


    Yes. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:50:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And BTD's question was... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:53:31 PM EST
    Here's my question, what motivated Senator Clinton to say what she did? What was the political calculus? Because, frankly, I do not understand her POLITICAL thinking in that answer
    Polls about what people feel dispute her. She must have known that.

    [ Parent ]
    Normal Empty Rhetoric (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:18:47 PM EST
    Of no consequence from her and typical of any politician. Feeling safe is a state of mind and can fluctuate from moment to moment depending on who is asking the question. I do not particularly fault her for it because it means nothing. Politicians want to make people feel safe among other things.

    Besides the polls asked whether people felt safer, not whether they were safer.

    At least she is not trying to first scare us and then tell us that she will keep us safe, that is clearly the Republican tactic right out of fascism 101.

    [ Parent ]

    Good points (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:27:12 PM EST
    It was what one of her staffers said the really started the ruckus:
    'I think the vast majority of Democratic primary voters, and Americans, would agree with Senator Clinton,'
    which is in stark contradiction with reality.


    [ Parent ]
    Maybe (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:35:42 PM EST
    But that question is so bereft of content the answer will change like the wind. So it is possible that her staffer was correct. The day is long and there are times most people feel safer than other times.

    The poll is vapid and total BS.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe 'maybe' is right. (none / 0) (#118)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 07:43:43 PM EST
    I don't know what the poll questions were either. If  the poll is vapid and total BS then so are Clinton's statements, and you noted that, as "Normal Empty Rhetoric ".

    [ Parent ]
    Rand Beers Sums It Up Pretty Well (none / 0) (#1)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:10:23 AM EST
    "Hillary's comment is a pretty centrist position, because I think the public is divided between giving the president credit for some steps toward safety, and being very critical of him," said Rand Beers, a national security expert who was an adviser on the Democratic presidential campaign of Senator John Kerry in 2004. "How you talk about the issue is really a cup-half-full versus cup-half-empty choice."

    There is no question that we have taken 'some' steps to improve our internal security. And like Clinton said we are not safe enough (i.e. more step have to be taken).

    What this is all about is Obama trying to jump on what she said to beat Clinton down. After reading his article in Foreign Affairs magazine I'm not so sure that he isn't the scary one here. Very Bush like thinking. Of course he could be over his head and relying on advisers in that article to bolster his Foreign Policy credibility but they went way overboard.

    It was also pretty dumb what Edwards said that fueled this debate. "The war on terror is a bumper sticker"? Saying that is expected in wwwland but not from a Presidential candidate. He could be more thoughtful than that in explaining what he thinks.

    This minor attempt by Obama will blow over quickly. He improved in this debate compared to the last one which was a disastrous performance but he is still pretty much an empty suit up there.


    The funny thing is (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:19:53 AM EST
    Rand Beers is someone who has, on the record, said we are LESS safe now because of Iraq.

    Your quote is a nonsequitor to the acxtual question of whether we are safer. You quote:

    Hillary's comment is a pretty centrist position

    But is it right? No it is not. Rand Beers has said so.

    But you do exactly what I deplore - do not try and figure out whether what Clinton says is true or not, but instead do a "horserace" analysis.

    The most striking thing about your comment is the absence of one word - Iraq. That is very telling to me about you.

    BTW, you are supporting Hillary I take it?

    [ Parent ]

    Right (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    Rand Beers is someone who has, on the record, said we are LESS safe now because of Iraq.

    If he is talking in the context of the spread of terrorism around the world he is right and I agree with that view. But that is not what he addressed in the quote I provided.

    But you do exactly what I deplore - do not try and figure out whether what Clinton says is true or not, .

    Sure I did. I quoted Beers. Domestic security has improved. As such we are safer in those areas. I feel safer getting on a plane for instance. Even you admitted there have been improvements. Your beef is that you want to parse the meaning of 'safe'.The meaning of 'safe' is a subjective discussion.

    but instead do a "horserace" analysis

    Yeah "horserace". That is the whole premise of why Obama attacked what she said. As it is yours.

    [ Parent ]
    You are so dishonest (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:10:29 PM EST
    Beers wrote that we are doing a crappy job domestically and unlike you, Beers understands that opur domestic security is affected by the effectiveness of our international success in fighting Islamic extremism.

    Just because you are a fool is no reason to project that onto Beers.

    Man, you are some piece of work.

    [ Parent ]

    More Beers (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:24:22 PM EST
    As the United States approaches the fifth anniversary of September 11, those of us who have dedicated our careers to the protection of the American people do not have much about which to be confident.The President and the Congress have had five years to learn, educate, propose,and put plans into action to defeat the terrorists and make America safe. They have failed. . . . The President and the Congress have failed to carry out their basic constitutional duty "to provide for the common defense."Most of us have not been in positions to make policy for a number of years, but we know what needs to be done. . . . We cannot permit the desire for a historical legacy to take precedent over the security of this country.

    . . . WHAT WE MUST DO:Over the past five years, America has turned its back on a tradition of globalleadership. Today, our standing in the world is diminished, our alliances arestrained, our military is dangerously overstretched, and our enemies areemboldened. Instead of maximizing American power, this Administration is weakening our nation and placing our national security at risk. If the Americanpeople are to be protected, this country must return to the bipartisan legacy ofstrong and determined American leadership. This should be the mandate forevery elected official, and every public servant.We've wasted these five years pursuing false goals and reckless objectives. It's time to focus on the real 9/11 enemies and pursue the real 9/11 objectives.

    . . . To Defeat Terrorists: Build Upon the Constitution, Don't Destroy It.The Administration has presented the American people with a false choicebetween our security and our core values. It has overreached on wiretapauthority, wrapping its justification in a mantra of fear and insecurity. It has ignored calls to build strong guidelines to help our soldiers deal with enemy combatants in the field, instead forcing Congress to modify rules that legitimizequestionable interrogation tactics. It has jailed individuals as enemy combatants with no process to correct for false information or mistaken identity and noconstitutionally-grounded system for determining their legal status. They've only shown willingness to act when political control is threatened. The terrorists mustbe stopped, but our Constitution is strong enough for that to happen in a way thatAmericans can support.

    On the issue of Edwards' statement, here is the money:

    The Bush Administration's rhetoric should not be confused for real security. We must end the politics of fear. As professionals in this field, we have discovered time and again that it is not only our duty, but the best practice, to level with those who employ us--the American people. The current agents charged with protecting us have spent the past five years recklessly misrepresenting reality, creating false and simplistic choices, and acting more as neo-crusaders than the keepers of the Constitution. We must now act and call for change. I encourage each of you over the next several weeks and months to write and speak about the need to move away from failure and forward with policies and programs that protect the American people and American interests, preserve American values, and restore American leadership in the world.

    Talex, go cite somebody else because Rand Beers is demolishing you.

    [ Parent ]

    talex (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:16:14 AM EST
    Do you ever hear the whistling sound as the point of BTD's posts flies past your head?

    [ Parent ]
    talex (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:23:37 AM EST
    doesn't agree with anything, unless at least 51% of the public agrees with it too. Then he knows it's the right position.

    [ Parent ]
    Hah. (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:27:39 AM EST
    Well... out of you, me, and talex - you and I make up 66 point something %.

    I guess talex has a small problem....

    [ Parent ]

    A Better Way to Put It (none / 0) (#21)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:56:18 AM EST
    would be:

    I've never seen 49% win a vote in congress


    [ Parent ]
    Exactly my point (none / 0) (#26)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:09:20 PM EST
    If only 49% support it, then you're against it. Thanks for confirming this.

    [ Parent ]
    And winning isn't evreything is it? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    It's the only thing?

    [ Parent ]
    Obviously he understands the point (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:26:32 AM EST
    He does not LIKE the point.

    But his invocation of Rand Beers was clearly a mistake on his part.

    I just buried him with it.

    [ Parent ]

    You buried yourself dummy (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:58:32 AM EST
    there are two different contexts in whether we are safe. You are mixing apples and oranges I think.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:12:00 PM EST
    That is some thick malarkey you are trying to run there fool.

    [ Parent ]
    You 'say' (none / 0) (#35)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:24:35 PM EST
    what Beers said but you don't even provide a quote. Which in turn provides no context.

    You wouldn't win many court cases doing that. When I practiced I was prepared with actual evidence in context with the case. Not undocumented pablum like you try to foist here.

    [ Parent ]

    I provide the "quote" (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:28:12 PM EST
    You meant the cite. And no, I do not provide cites for dishonest fools like you.

    Beers said what I quote. You did not question it before. Now you are  getting hit by a bus.

    You screwed up trying to use Beers because you did not know a darn thing about Rand Beers apparently.

    Truly your most pathetic performance ever. And that is saying something.

    [ Parent ]

    Two different contexts? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:14:44 PM EST
    You mean the context of believing we are safe, and the context of actually being safer under an objective analysis.

    Unfortunately, one is only truly safer in the latter context, not the former. But in typical talex fashion you are happy to conclude that if >50% believe they are safer, then they are in fact safer, and that's all that matters.

    You are so hung up on poll numbers, that you believe reality is whatever the polls say it is. That's why you are a laughing stock around here.

    [ Parent ]

    No (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:32:22 PM EST
    In the context of domestic safety versus worldwide safety.

    Worldwide we are less safe because there is more terrorism.

    Domestically were are more safe because measures have been taken to make us so at the Federal level, at the State level, and even at the local level. You can add at the international level also as it pertains to people entering the country. Think about the airplanes that have been diverted because of no-fly lists. They don't enter our borders until we verify who is exactly on those planes.

    Those measures were not in place pre-911. So are we safer now than we were then? Of course. Unless you think the measure taken do not actually exist.

    [ Parent ]

    Ha! (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    Look, spout all the nonsense you want but that is not Rand Beers talking, that is YOU!

    How dare you attribute this drivel to Rand Beers?

    Do you have a CITE or a quote to support the nonsensical notion that Rand Beers thinks about the fight against terrorism in this way? OF course not. Indeed, I think you are the only person I have ever seen who disconnected the fight against Islamic extremism internationally with our domestic security.

    It is so stupid that not even the most stupid Republican could have come up with it.

    [ Parent ]

    I see (none / 0) (#40)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:42:18 PM EST
    But Beers also said this:

    Within U.S. borders, homeland security is suffering from "policy constipation. Nothing gets done," Beers said. "Fixing an agency management problem doesn't make headlines or produce voter support. So if you're looking at things from a political perspective, it's easier to go to war."

    That hardly sounds like a ringing endorsement of the idea that Americans are safer now domestically. But, whatever you say, chief.

    [ Parent ]

    Ding Dong (none / 0) (#44)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:54:00 PM EST
    That was said in 2003.

    Are you saying things have not improved since then?

    [ Parent ]

    Check out (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:20:24 PM EST
    BTD's various quotations. Beers was saying it in 2003 when he quit over the issue, and he's saying it now.

    The idea that domestic security has improved under Bush is nonsense. And I'm sure that in another 'context' you would agree with that assessment, except now when you need to defend Bush in order to defend Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (1.00 / 1) (#54)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:28:40 PM EST
    and he's saying it now

    As they say....

    Link?

    [ Parent ]

    Here's a link (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:34:31 PM EST
    right here. You're all wet on this. Beers thinks the Bush admin is an ongoing disaster on domestic security.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah I'm Familiar (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:49:51 PM EST
    with that site. Beers is the President of it. But he is not saying anything close to the OLD article Armando provided or that you also claimed was valid and was not given it's age.

    What Beers now says, and I have seen him on TV saying it, is that we still have MORE to do in the area of Homeland Security. That is the same thing Clinton said. And is the same thing that Beers said in relation to Clinton -  "How you talk about the issue is really a cup-half-full versus cup-half-empty choice."

    In other words the job is not done (half-empty) but it is not like we haven't done anything at all the levels I posted prior (half-full).

    So stop with the nonsense already. You know we have done some things to make use safer therefore in those areas we are safer but "We are not yet safe enough" because there is more to do.

    Just like Clinton said!


    [ Parent ]

    You're just a flat out (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:53:09 PM EST
    liar, nothing more.

    [ Parent ]
    What Am I lying about? (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:07:28 PM EST
    Clinton said what she said. That is no lie.

    We have made improvements at all levels of government in regard to Homeland Security which do make us safer - but not safe enough. That is no lie.

    Beers said 'half-empty, half-full'. That is no lie.

    So what am I lying about? Or are you just giving the typical internet ad hominem when you have screwed up and blindly supported a quote that you latter found out was ancient? And then rather than be a man and own up to the obvious error you made you revert to name calling.

    Don't worry there are millions of you on the internet. And that kind of behavior makes it such a wonderful place.

    [ Parent ]

    You're lying (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:37:05 PM EST
    that Beers thinks the Bush admin has made America safer domestically since 9/11. Beers thinks no such thing and has never said that. Everything written at National Network Security makes it clear that Beers and his colleagues there think Bush's domestic security policy is terrible and hasn't improved at all since 2003.

    Beers' cup half full half empty comment is not a claim that Bush has improved the domestic security situation. He was saying that it is no surprise to him that a centrist like Clinton would aim to give Bush some credit for something because polls are split on the issue. She is triangulating, once again, and Beers recognizes that.

    You agree with Beers' assessment of Clinton's debate strategy. And because you approve of Clinton's strategy, you deliberately equate Beers' assessment of her strategy with approval of what she says. But you are wrong. Beers does not think Bush's domestic security arrangements are anything but poor. Beers is just being cynical.

    But even if it were true for a second that Bush has made some improvement, no security expert would argue that he should be given credit for it, just because he's taken the situation from disastrous to merely terrible. Only a politician would try to make that argument. And only a politician of a certain stripe, i.e. a centrist, triangulating poll watcher like Hillary Clinton.

    This is typical of you. You did the same thing with Glenn Greenwald, who was saying the exact opposite of what you claimed he said. You've proven once again that you cannot comprehend what other people are saying and will spin almost anyone's comments to make it look like they agree with you.

    I'm really sick of you, by the way. I favored the idea of ignoring you as BTD suggested, but then after you had some comments deleted and a banning threat, you behaved yourself, so I was willing to engage you. But your better behavior only lasted  for maybe a dozen comments or so, if that. You are back to your old ways, so I refuse to waste any more time on your lies. Ta ta!

    [ Parent ]

    You're back to selling the rethug line (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:54:54 PM EST
    now, talex. Even you can probably guess by now why you are having so little success.

    You're not a democrat in anything but name. And I doubt even in that.

    I don't believe you even belong to the democratic party.

    In my opinion you are a rethug troll. Nothing more.

    [ Parent ]

    He finds himself (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:56:42 PM EST
    stuck supporting the Bush line because of HRC's foolish comments. This is what talex is all about.

    [ Parent ]
    See that Is What It Is (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:15:08 PM EST
    Truth be damned it is a Bush line. So it can't be true even if it is because that would be supporting Bush.

    Better to ignore reality. It is a much more intelligent thing to do.

    Ding dongs with blinders who only know how to play the partisan games add nothing to The Party or to the country or to their own intelligence.

    Partisanship is a repub game and you have learned to mimic it well. So that makes you just like them doesn't it?

    [ Parent ]

    That (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:10:33 PM EST
    and that fact, I think, that what he's really after is power for the rethugs by calling him and themselves democrats.

    talex is not a democrat, or a liberal by any stretch. He can't have Bush as next president so he'll go after the next best thing and try to deceive to convince that Bush policies are democratic values.

    I don't usually go for "I told you so" but I saw hints of this kind of dynamic developing a few days after the midterms, about the same time decon showed up here.

    [ Parent ]

    You could be right (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:58:32 PM EST
    Over at dkos talex became known to me for two things:

    1. He was furious at kos's call for the Dems to pull out of the Fox News Nevada debate, taking the line that it was giving up on a huge chunk of the electorate. He was impervious to arguments that the Fox News demographic is more Republican than any other demographic other than 'Republicans'. He rails about this issue whenever he gets a chance.

    2. His stance on the funding issue, which we all know from his comments here.

    I don't have the certainty that you have that he's a GOP troll, but I have no doubt that at the very least he's a hard core DLCer and Liebercrat, and not a progressive.

    [ Parent ]
    Not much difference if any (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:03:24 PM EST
    I don't have the certainty that you have that he's a GOP troll, but I have no doubt that at the very least he's a hard core DLCer and Liebercrat, and not a progressive. except in label, I think.

    [ Parent ]
    Fair enough n/t (none / 0) (#104)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:04:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    GOP or hard core DLCer and Liebercrat... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 06:07:41 PM EST
    Or...
    Who could have imagined six years ago that wild stories about our influence over U.S. foreign policy would reach the far corners of the globe? The loose group of us who felt impelled by the antics of the 1960s to migrate from the political left to right must have numbered fewer than 100. And we were proven losers at Washington's power game: The left had driven us from the Democratic Party, stolen the "liberal" label, and successfully affixed to us the name "neoconservative."
    ...
    Recruit Joe Lieberman for 2008
    Operation Comeback

    [ Parent ]
    It doesn't matter whether they are (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:34:55 PM EST
    called rethugs, or neocons, or blue dogs, or just dogs - they're all interchangeable terms.

    They hijacked the GOP and destroyed it, and now they are trying to do the same thing to the Democratic Party.

    They have one goal.

    Power.

    [ Parent ]

    That's why he tilted his head (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:28:50 AM EST
    to let it fly past.

    [ Parent ]
    He titled his head into it (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:30:45 AM EST
    and took it on the chin.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't win Poor guy. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:33:59 AM EST
    Can't win fer losin'. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:07:26 AM EST
    One good thing, he's left this thread. Hopefully he has left for good.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:10:12 AM EST
    Nooo.. too much to hope for, I think.

    [ Parent ]
    It would be really interesting to know (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:57:05 PM EST
    what he "titled" his head.

    [ Parent ]
    Rand Beers (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:22:32 AM EST
    The administration wasn't matching its deeds to its words in the war on terrorism. They're making us less secure, not more secure," said Beers, who until now has remained largely silent about leaving his National Security Council job as special assistant to the president for combating terrorism. "As an insider, I saw the things that weren't being done. And the longer I sat and watched, the more concerned I became, until I got up and walked out."



    [ Parent ]
    Worldwide (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:02:00 PM EST
    he is right. Domestically he offered a different opinion in the quote from the article.

    Context matters in this discussion.

    [ Parent ]

    Telling the truth matters (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:08:31 PM EST
    Beers wrote:

    Within U.S. borders, homeland security is suffering from "policy constipation. Nothing gets done," Beers said. "Fixing an agency management problem doesn't make headlines or produce voter support. So if you're looking at things from a political perspective, it's easier to go to war."

    You wrote:

    Domestically he offered a different opinion in the quote from the article.

    You are wrong as usual. BTW, unlike you, Beers understands that the international fight against Islamic extremism effect our domestic security. Perhaps you and Hillary do not.

    Man you really are nothing but a clown. You get utterly debunked and can't admit it.

    See how your famous anti-war organziations feel about your little nonsense. I bet they "agree" with you too.

    [ Parent ]

    Apples and Oranges (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:50:39 PM EST
    and as usual you are being disingenuous.

    Beers wrote this yesterday:

    "How you talk about the issue is really a cup-half-full versus cup-half-empty choice."

    He said that as how the public relates to present security. And he did not disagree with it.

    Clinton basically said the same thing yesterday when she said:
     

    "We are not yet safe enough, and I have proposed over the last year a number of policies that I think we should be following."

    In other words the glass is half-full and we can be doing more.

    As opposed to your Beers quote that was said by him in June of 2003

    Of course next you will claim without evidence that domestic security has not improved since 2003 either on the federal level, or the state level, or the local level. And those planes being diverted due to no fly lists are just the press printing propaganda.

    I'm done with this conversation as I have other IMPORTANT things to do. Keep digging around in 2003 and I'm sure yo will find plenty that relates to 2007.


    [ Parent ]

    In other words (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:25:12 AM EST
    Rand Beers sums it up well, Hillary is wrong.


    [ Parent ]
    Hillaryh is wrong said Rand Beers (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:50 AM EST
    The focus on Iraq has robbed domestic security of manpower, brainpower and money, he said. The Iraq war created fissures in the United States' counterterrorism alliances, he said, and could breed a new generation of al Qaeda recruits. Many of his government colleagues, he said, thought Iraq was an "ill-conceived and poorly executed strategy."

    "I continue to be puzzled by it," said Beers, who did not oppose the war but thought it should have been fought with a broader coalition. "Why was it such a policy priority?" The official rationale was the search for weapons of mass destruction, he said, "although the evidence was pretty qualified, if you listened carefully."

    He thinks the war in Afghanistan was a job begun, then abandoned. Rather than destroying al Qaeda terrorists, the fighting only dispersed them. The flow of aid has been slow and the U.S. military presence is too small, he said. "Terrorists move around the country with ease. We don't even know what's going on. Osama bin Laden could be almost anywhere in Afghanistan," he said.

    As for the Saudis, he said, the administration has not pushed them hard enough to address their own problem with terrorism. Even last September, he said, "attacks in Saudi Arabia sounded like they were going to happen imminently."

    Within U.S. borders, homeland security is suffering from "policy constipation. Nothing gets done," Beers said. "Fixing an agency management problem doesn't make headlines or produce voter support. So if you're looking at things from a political perspective, it's easier to go to war."



    [ Parent ]
    The same trick (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Warren Terrer on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:33:10 AM EST
    he tried to pull re Glenn Greenwald.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:34:27 AM EST
    Well, since Beers said we are less safe, hard to spin it.

    [ Parent ]
    ROTFLMAO!!!! (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:57:51 PM EST
    "Hillaryh is wrong said Rand Beers" - Armando

    Again that was a 2003 quote from Beers.

    So there is no way he was talking about what Hillary said last night!!!!

    Liar!!


    [ Parent ]

    In the First paragraph (none / 0) (#15)
    by Stewieeeee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:43:56 AM EST
    You say she misspoke.

    In the second you say it was political calculus.

    I really liked what you said about Debates not being debates of ideas but horserace debates.

    But I don't see a political calculus behind what amounts to a gaffe at this point.

    if you read hillary rand beers' statements, do you think she'd disagree with them?  i don't.

    I think all the gents we saw last night would though.


    Perhaps (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 10:49:09 AM EST
    A fair point.

    [ Parent ]
    Stewieeeee (none / 0) (#24)
    by talex on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:03:40 PM EST
    Nails It!

    [ Parent ]
    Sheesh (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:13:50 PM EST
    Stewie said that Hillary gaffed.

    So that's your opinion now?

    You are just a piece of work.


    [ Parent ]

    I think the speaker should (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 11:48:25 AM EST
    correct and/or explain his or her own statements, if the speaker deems this necessary, not a spokesperson or handler.  

    Indeed. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:52:03 PM EST
    Clinton says something that BTD doesn't like so then BTD decides that "she must have misspoke." Deluding yourself much?

    [ Parent ]
    I, of course, was referring to the paragraph (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    that starts:

    "Senator Clinton's advisors tried to explain away Senator Clinton's comments . . . ."

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, I know. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    If it's objectionable for Clinton's actual advisers and staff to "translate" what the senator really meant, that goes double for BTD, who decided that when a senator participating in a debate gives what appears to be a well thought out and clear answer she must have "misspoke."

    [ Parent ]
    Given no one has ever suspected BTD (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:08:30 PM EST
    of supporting HIllary Clinton, perhaps he should have just sd. she was wrong.  

    [ Parent ]
    One report on the JFK pipeline conspiracy (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 12:15:34 PM EST
    listed the sources consulted, including "even the Internet."  Didn't make me feel too safe.  

    Taking into account (none / 0) (#53)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    the frequent wrongness factor and his great fondness for Hillary, here's what Dick Morris has to say today about Hillary on Iraq:

    No American president will be able to pull our troops out and watch the Iraqi government dissolve in chaos, only to be taken over by the very terrorists who are planting IEDs to kill our troops. And if a male American president can't do so, a female president certainly cannot.

    As a woman, as a Democrat, from the first moment Hillary Clinton were to take office as president, she would face the task of proving herself tough enough for the job. Even if foreign leaders and our enemies do not doubt her on this score, she will feel the need to prove herself.

    Sad to say, there's undoubtedly a kernal of truth in that. The world being what it is, gender will throw an additional layer of complexity into how the situation evolves if H Clinton becomes president. I think it will warp whatever her moves are so as to do nothing less "tough" than what Bush is doing, stupid as that might be.

    If the Dems could get their act together, (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 01:29:59 PM EST
    we would be out of Iraq before the '08 Presidential election.  Sometimes I think the party wants to delay to make her "deal with it."

    [ Parent ]
    Well, (none / 0) (#80)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:21:00 PM EST
    women do the work of the world, don't they. :)

    To me she seems plenty tough with all the utterly unfair crap she's faced with total aplomb over the past 15 years. I can appreciate that aspect of her though she's way too conservative to appeal to me as a candidate. But I would have hoped that she'd be smart and creative enough not to have to reprise the Maggie Thatcher shtick. Being strong and tough does not have to equal being a militarist and a warmonger. She could break new ground, but she won't.

    [ Parent ]

    With her intelligence and willingness (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:26:47 PM EST
    venture into new, controversial territory (i.e., health care years ago), I'm still hoping she will acquire enough good information and give it enough thought to speak out strongly for defunding before the '08 election--like very soon.  Of course, that would probably require her to ignore the advise of her handlers and policy wonks.  

    [ Parent ]
    "years ago" (none / 0) (#87)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:46:27 PM EST
    says it all. Unfortunately, the lesson she seems to have drawn from that fiasco is the exact opposite of what you say. What it seems to have taught her is to NOT "venture into new, controversial territory" or depart from the advice of her "handlers and policy wonks".

    [ Parent ]
    Well, I applaud her recent Senate votes (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:02:53 PM EST
    for Reid-Feingold and against and "capitulation," but lament her unwillingness to be a leader ahead of the votes and vocally advocate her position after the votes.  Hoping she'll improve there.    

    [ Parent ]
    I applaud them too (none / 0) (#92)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:14:18 PM EST
    but would be applauding louder if she hadn't had to be dragged to them kicking and screaming.

    [ Parent ]
    Probably reluctantly, don't know about (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:21:18 PM EST
    kicking and screaming.  If Barack Obama advocated those votes forcefully, she's be there too.  Its all his fault, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    The two of them - just ugh (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:45:25 PM EST
    Can they just show some leadership?

    I never thought I'd see the day, but Gore is starting to look good to me in comparison to the rest of them, at least in terms of having actual convictions and not continually running away from his own shadow.

    [ Parent ]

    IF only he would speak out on Reid/Feingold. (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 05:49:02 PM EST
    I know he doesn't have to--he's not a candidate and isn't in the Senate or House.  But still.  The mark of a leader.  

    [ Parent ]
    Debating What the Meaning of "Is" Is? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 02:44:25 PM EST
    According to a CBS News poll a little less than a year ago, 84 percent of Americans say they feel less safe or only as safe as they did before 9/11. This is not a small majority - this actually IS the vast majority saying they unequivocally disagree with Clinton's assessment. That probably has something to do with the fact that by a 4-to-1 margin, Americans believe the Iraq War, which Clinton voted for, has made the country less safe.
    Sirota a few minutes ago


    Hillary Clinton sd. SHE believes we are (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 03:37:59 PM EST
    safer than we were.  I don't agree.  But, she has the right to express her opinion, even if 84% of us don't agree.  

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary Clinton, unfortunately, (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 04:35:09 PM EST
    is not very far removed from the republicans. She's after power first, above all, too, and she'll compromise principle and say whatever she thinks will get it for her. If called on it she'll justify it the same way talex tries to, by saying she can't do anything without being elected first so people should hold their noses and vote for her. On and on it goes....

    "I have no principles now, but I promise you, dear voter, that as soon as you elect me I'll have some. I know it smells