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What is the "Progressive Netroots"?

Chris Bowers, writing about the stupid blogrolling dispute (easy for me to say right? TalkLeft is linked, thanks to J.), actually stumbles into interesting ground:

What are individual bloggers trying to accomplish? What is the blogosphere in general trying to accomplish? . . . I am not saying I know the answer to those questions. I'm just saying that before anyone is accused of anything, people should explain their motives for blogging, ask others to explain their motives, and then see if those motives intersect.

Explaining motives, disclosure of conflicts, etc., is all important stuff and something the Netroots need to do better, but I am still much more interested, in another part of what Chris writes:

[A]s an activist blogger, I seek ways to help make progressive political machinery more effective.

Does that describe how the "Netroots leadership" generally have functioned on Iraq and the Iraq supplemental funding bill? I think the answer is obviously no. I have written a lot on why I think so but I will remind everyone on the flip.

On February 27, 2007, I responded to a Matt Stoller piece:

Is the Public Ahead of the Netroots on Iraq? Matt Stoller asks that question. The answer is obviously yes. I am a Centrist. And yet on Iraq, the voices joining me on the call to end the Iraq Debacle through the only viable way to do it, defunding, have been relatively few to my knowledge.

On March 13, I wrote:

The "Netroots" on Iraq: Defunding Takes Republicans

By Big Tent Democrat

To hear some in the "Netroots" tell it, defunding the Iraq Debacle by the Dem Congress is pipe dream crazy talk. Here is Matt Stoller:

Respectfully, your pet solution is not THE ANSWER. There is no THE ANSWER. Strategy is actually putting out a set of parameters that actually map to reality, and the reality is that there is not the discipline in the party to do what you suggest . . .
For Stoller, defunding can not be done. At least not by Democrats. . . .

This was the activist Progressive Netroots - the LEFT WING of the Party!!! Today, Harry Reid stands with Russ Feingold. The "Netroots" never did. I think that is very worthy of criticism.

Chris Bowers wrote:

I freely admit that I am nowhere close to perfect, and that there are ways I can do my job better. However, I am always open to persuasion and suggestions on how I can improve.

Nah, no one really is. Everyone SAYS they are, but no one really is. I criticized Matt, Chris, Move On, David Sirota, etc., because they seem to forget they were the Left Wing, the "Netroots" - not the politicians. On March 19, 2007, I wrote:

Earth to Netroots, Move On, You Are Not Up For Reelection One of the most maddening things about the reaction of Move On and much of the Netroots to the disastrous House bill on Iraq funding is the newfound belief that it is now their role to be the "pragmatic conciliators" who need to cut deals.

. . . A dkos commenter, Eugene, captures what is wrong with this mindset:

You say, at one point:
Just the numbers aren't on the side of those who wish to end the war.

That's your problem right there. You see that as a conclusion instead of as a starting point. You see it as an answer, not a question.

That the votes aren't there right now is not relevant to the conversation. What matters is how we get those votes. How do we twist arms to make these "Democrats" who have sabotaged even a proviso to stop an attack on Iran come around and change their minds?

Chris Bowers writes:

I see my supervisors as the progressive activists who read what I write. If you can explain to me how linking to you will help me do my job better, then I am all ears. If you can't, then don't expect anything in return. Maybe I am simply too naïve or idealistic, but I imagine any blogger, no matter his or her traffic levels, and no matter what his or her goals may be, will tell you pretty much the same thing, if they at least stop and think about it. There is a purpose behind all of our blogs, and whenever we talk about issues surrounding traffic and hyperlinks, it is important for us to keep own purposes in mind.

Well, if you say so Chris. I do not think complaining about blogrolls and hyperlinks and whatnot is productive. I do not expect the A-Listers to pay attention to me just because I write something, particularly if I write something critical of them. On March 17, I wrote:

As folks who have been reading me have seen, I have been quite critical of House Dems AND Left blogs regarding their attitudes and prescriptions for Iraq. My views have almost universally been ignored by all, except for the occasional patronizing riposte that does not engage at all my arguments.

Why is this so? Are discussions of how to end the Debacle in Iraq that are not exclusively critical of the GOP and Bush not worth notice?

It is ironic to me, as perhaps daily kos' most staunch defender on questions of ethics and conflicts of interest, to have to ask this question, but I have to ask it - what is behind this?

Are there professional relationships, existing or potential, that stand in the way of honest critiques of Democrats? I know for a fact that the two biggest Left bloggers have no such issues - Atrios and Markos have no political contracts or relationships - they make money from ads, which are based on traffic.

But what of the rest of us? This site is written by practicing lawyers with no political income. But this is not universally true. Some bloggers are political consultants. Is this affecting their blogging? I know it can not be affecting it CONSCIOUSLY. I know some of these folks and they just are not like that.

As for the rest of the Left blogs, is it the home team mentality? Perhaps. I know, as I said, come election time, I go completely into partisan mode. I think I can and do adjust in non-election times. Are blogs incapable of switching gears?

At this point, I must say the answer appears to be yes.

If I was worrried about blogrolls, links and persuading the principals like Chris Bowers, I would never have written that. I think we need LESS concern about blogrolls and linking and more concern about what people profess to care about. For me, the Iraq Debacle has been my annoying (to the readers of this blog) focus. I am not going to explain to Chris Bowers why I am blogging in order to have him deign to consider bestowing an almighty link on me.

Because once I do that, I am pulling my punches. I am CRITICIZING Chris here, as I have in the past. If he thinks my criticisms worthy of response, then he may respond to them. IF he does not, then he will not. And that is how it should be.

< Karl Rove Protest in D.C.: Objects Hurled | Obama Wins the Ignatius Primary By Getting Punked On Iraq >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Eh (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 09:38:54 AM EST
    You're C-list anyway. :-p

    chris bowers' dumb questions (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by orionATL on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:07:42 AM EST
    oh, god.

    not a "goals and objectives" approach to the web log world.

    "what are individual bloggers trying to accomplish?"

    i have no idea, i don't read minds.

    i HOPE they are trying to uncover the political facts of the world we live in

    and

    trying to accurately analyze the implications of those facts,

    in contradistinction to the corporate media, who simply serve their corporation's needs.

    "what is the blogisphere in general trying to accomplish?"

    a stupid question.

    the "blogisphere" is a concept, not a person.  it does not have motives of any kind.

    furthermore, the more individual and idiosyncratic the web log world

    (aka "blogispere" - "blog"  being, incidentally, one of the ugliest sounding words in the english language)

    is, the better, IMHO.

    i like to think of collective weblog writing as an intellectual effort involving an "invisible hand" where,

    when all pursue the truth in their own light (hmmm, maybe a bit of "baptist" here too),

    our society benefits.

    put differently, i ain't signing up for nobody else's war but my own.

    and my war is with a inaccurate, dishonest, self-serving media

    and

    with public lying on a massive scale by politicians and government and corporate officials.

    I like this comment (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:12:36 AM EST
    A St. Crispin's Day manifesto! (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 12:46:39 PM EST
    what are individual bloggers trying to accomplish? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:27:38 AM EST
    Seems to me to be the easiest question there is to answer. And trying to answer it by refining or expanding the question to as what are they trying to accomplish as a defined group misses what I think is the obvious.

    On virtually any blog the content and the tone of delivery, for me, tells me what they are trying to acccomplish. I take them at face value. Naive? Maybe. But I think that the vast majority of bloggers do what they do not firstly for traffic ofr for money (those are secondary enabling goals perhaps) or for anything but expressing what changes they want to see in the world. IOW, what in each individual view, would make the world a better place or a more psychologically acceptable place, by exclusion or by addition or by change, for them.

    They (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:28:40 AM EST
    ask for what they ask for, IOW.

    Parent
    "blog theory" (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 02:56:42 PM EST
    Having clear goals is good, and I'm sympathetic to Chris's desire for blogging as focused, effective action. But when he says:

    To be more specific, as an activist blogger, I seek ways to help make progressive political machinery more effective

    he's perceiving the machinery and what makes it more effective too narrowly, IMO. He's highly focused on what he wants to achieve with his blog, which is fine. What he's discounting is the value to himself and others of having a robust progressive blogosphere within which his highly specialized little niche blog can function.

    Instead of saying:

    it would help if they explained why they want more traffic and links in the first place

    I'd like him to explain why it could be anything but a good thing for ALL progressive blogs to have more traffic and more links.

    The whole point of blogging is that it's a bottom-up phenomenon - theoretically, everyone who wants to can make their voice heard through it. ALL of those possible reasons for people starting blogs that Chris lists are perfectly valid. The point is to build the interconnecting system so that it's powerful enough to force its upwelling perspectives into the fossilized (and Republicanized) media mainstream and shift it toward its own. That's what the right wing has been doing for the past several decades. Building the progressive blogosphere is the equivalent of Regnery and wingnut welfare, but without the need for the deep pockets of the very wealthy.

    I'm disappointed at the self-righteous short-sightedness of some of the A-List bloggers. Instead of shrugging off their responsibility to help with the bootstrapping problem, they should be doing everything they possibly can to ease it. Because really it's not and never was all about them.

    Do they seek to be part of the Democratic Party... (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:07:54 PM EST
    apparatus/machinery?  Why?  I thought it was a progressive movement using the Democratic Party machinery to advance/achieve it's objectives.  Or is it simply a wing of the Democratic Party and all about power within the Democratic Party?

    Off topic and on topic (4.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Swan on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 09:15:33 AM EST
    On topic, I think if someone wants to just blog to let off some creative energy and make their mark / express thoughts, that's their right- for the rest of us who want to change the world for the good, there is more to think of. Stephen Colbert's show, for example, is a double-edged sword because while informing a lot of people and keeping us interested and calm, it also has the effect of being an outlet for steam that otherwise would probably be spent talking to people, getting involved, etc. It's good but it can be a problem when people just start turning to a TV show or a blog to make them feel better but let their feelings stop there, and there's nothing else they ever do with their politicization.

    Off topic, and I hope you don't mind that, but I think this is really important: There is a great post on The Carpetbagger Report from a few days ago about the mainstream media's (specifically Time magazine's) ignoring the prosecutor purge scandal.

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10367.html

    What explains the failure of the mainstream media to cover the purge scandal for so long, and so many other scandals? Do you think somebody just set up newspaper editors to cheat on their wives, and threatened to tell if the editors wouldn't play ball when they come back some day and ask for something?

    It wouldn't be that hard to do, when you think about it. People wouldn't talk about it.
     

    The Purge story and Time (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 09:22:41 AM EST
    was thoroughly covered here.

    Thanks for the link though.

    Parent

    ok, your first huge mistake (none / 0) (#4)
    by cpinva on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 09:47:09 AM EST
    is in assuming, in the absence of facts in evidence, that there is some kind of
    netroots leadership
    .

    who is this, and when were they elected? or, as is more likely, are they self-appointed? that being the  (most likely) case, they only lead themselves.

    the wonderful thing about the net, and blogging specifically, is that it's a great equalizer: anyone can do it, you don't need a license or specialized training/education. you don't need huge amounts of capital; any idiot can be a blogger.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:04:43 AM EST
    I do not assume it. I deny it.

    Parent
    To me, your final paragraph summarizes (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 12:43:45 PM EST
    the problem from the viewpoint of the reader.  So much chaff to sift through to find the opinions supported by expertise and factual accuracy.  

    Parent
    Some known bloggers (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 10:47:30 AM EST
    Thought that it was appropriate to say that soldiers had a moral obligation to break the law by refusing orders to deploy to Iraq.  They thought that that debate should be played out on the net involving military family members who have the courage and strength to blog on left wing blogs right now in the middle of this mess from hell.  When Dems were voted a voice though those same bloggers rolled over like dogs.  I just couldn't believe that.  They fostered left blog communities that became openly hostile to the military and their families for not seeking court-martial and imprisonment but when it was their turn to stand up against the Iraq War and they risked nothing of the sort they played dead dog.  That part I really couldn't believe.  I'm still stunned by that.

    How is the voter to discern what those (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:04:49 PM EST
    "upwelling perspectives" are, in the face of so much junk?

    The point is to build the interconnecting system so that it's powerful enough to force its upwelling perspectives into the fossilized (and Republicanized) media mainstream and shift it toward its own.
     [Emphasis added.]

    Junk (none / 0) (#16)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:25:53 PM EST
    Do you think Neiwert writes junk?

    Just one of the blogs pointlessly cut.

    The point is for the A-listers to be helping to make the lesser known but highly valuable writers more known. No one's asking for junk to be linked to.

    Parent

    And having that robots.txt file (none / 0) (#17)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 03:44:39 PM EST
    excluding Google from indexing everybody's individual blogrolls at dailykos - unless there's some good reason for it I haven't heard, well really it just seems...awful.

    Parent
    No opinion at present on Neiwart, although (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 04:41:38 PM EST
    his credentials look solid and I certainly agree with his position in the lead article to which you linked.  

    Since the only blog I really read is Daily Kos with occasional checks of Huffington Post and Informed Consent, with the recent addition of Talk Left, perhaps I should stay out of this discussion.  Based entirely on my experience reading Daily Kos, though, I'd hate for some of that stuff to be readily available to people who don't frequent that site.   Kind of the reverse of your point, though.

    Parent

    Lots of what's written everywhere (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 06:09:13 PM EST
    is crap, including in the old media, but the mere fact of it being produced for public consumption is what influences the nature of discourse and CW. Of course lots of what's posted in the diaries at dailykos is terrible, but the quality of individual bits of content isn't the point, the fact that it's progressive is. It's the overall development of the progressive network that's important. Without the sheer flow of content on dailykos - good and bad - it wouldn't be the center of gravity that it is.

    The blogroll issue really isn't about the individual blogs or their quality, it's about building the network vs cutting back on it. It's the equivalent of bootstrapping a community wireless network. The more individual nodes that join up, the more access that's created for everyone, merely as a result of the density of interconnections. The simple fact of connecting allows the whole mesh to start being able to sustain itself organically.


    Parent

    Call me old-fashioned, but I still (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 07:51:13 PM EST
    prefer a newspaper (not all newspapers, though) because, with some notable exceptions, I assume the reporter did some investigation and that there was some input from at least one editor. Not perfect, by a long shot, of course.

    As opposed to someone typing on a computer with no need to investigate anything and with no editorial supervision.  

    Parent

    We're talking about opinion not reporting (none / 0) (#21)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 04, 2007 at 08:29:01 PM EST
    But OK, you're old fashioned.

    :)

    Parent

    Ha. Adding your qualifier (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:25:29 PM EST
    ["we're talking about opinion] changes the landscape considerably.  

    Parent
    Isn't it assumed (none / 0) (#23)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:29:43 PM EST
    that blogging is opinion and analysis? Few (like Josh Marshall) pursue actual reporting.

    Parent
    I envision a Daily Kos diary w/poll on this issue. (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:32:26 PM EST
    Try it (none / 0) (#25)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 12:39:39 PM EST
    I would think the answer is obvious, but The Orange can be full of surprises.

    Parent
    I lack the "thick skin" (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    required before posting a diary.

    Parent
    In that case (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:12:23 PM EST
    that wouldn't be a bad topic. At least no one will beat you up over it. Much.

    Parent
    Is that a promise? (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Thu Apr 05, 2007 at 01:15:12 PM EST