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Israel Bombs Beirut Airport

The last two days have seen the deadliest attacks in 24 years between Israel and its neighbors with Israel bombing Lebanon two days in a row after the kidnapping of two of its soldiers by Hezbollah. Today it bombed the Beirut airport.

President Bush pledged to work with Israel, criticizing Hezbollah for thwarting efforts for peace in the Middle East.

"My attitude is this: there are a group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace," he said at a news conference in Germany. "The soldiers need to be returned."

Reactions from other Arab countries:

Moderate Arab governments reacted with relative restraint, apparently reflecting a sentiment in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia that Hezbollah - and by implication its top ally, Syria - had started the fight with Israel.

I support Israel in this. I'm sure others will disagree. Have at it, but keep it civil and any anti-semitic comments will be deleted.

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    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#1)
    by BigTex on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:15:35 AM EST
    Looks like Israel may finally be taking the kiddie gloves off. This has been a long time coming. They have tried diplimacy and it has failed. Under Clinton Arafat was about to get everyting he wanted, and he rejected the deal and responded with waves of suicide bombers. When Israel started defending herself the complaint they went crying to the UN was The Isralei's shot back. Think about that. They complained that Israel was returning fire when people were shooting at them. That's the mindset they have. That they can do what they want, and do not have to fear reprecussions. This is the same group of people who were targeting civilians with their suicide bombers. Sure civilians get harmed in combat, but they were targeting civilians. Israel never went in and started targeting civilians in response to the suicide bombings. They targeted the command structure and the physical aspects (factories used to produce, trainign grounds, storage facilities, etc), but they never targeted the civilinas. They build a fence to increase security. They tried to let self rule take place. The end result? No change. More of the same keeps continuing. So finally, Israel has had enough and is starting to show what can happen if they keep getting attacked. Even now, they are showing restraint. They easily could have hit the terminal at the airport rather than just the runways. For that matter, they could have wiped the airport off of the map. They have hit some infrastructure, but they aren't targeting civilians. They could have a policy for each rocket that is fired we will cluster bomb a neigborhood. They could go tit for tat and start to make their enemies civilian population feel the same fear they have been feeling for the past 6 years. But they haven't. Theyhave shown restraint, just not as much as in the past. They could knock out all power to the area, and refuse to provide some as they are doing now. They could knock out desal plants, and refuse to release water to Gaza. They could be doing a significant amount more to make the civilinas in Gaza, West Bank, and Lebanon miserable. To cause them to decide that the radical's war isn't worth the misery they are in and to cause the govrnments to fall to see to the end of the fighting. They haven't. Though after the past 6 years of having civilians targeted, they probablly have gained the to do so. Israel could be doing much more. So far they haven't. The question becomes should they. Lebanon could mobalize their army and make an attempt to control her southern border. She hasn't. That alone gives Israel the go ahead to take protective measures. It's harsh, but sometimes you have to hold people to the standard they hold you. That is the only way to get behavior modification. For the record I also posted this elsewhere if someone is digging.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    I am surprised that egypt et all are keeping quiet. It will get ugly real quick if these POW's show up in Iran.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:33:45 AM EST
    TL-It is beyond me how you can call the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers by Hezbolla, kidnapping. Even if you support Israel on this, the language bias you use seems odd, given your incredibly fair take on every other issue I have read about here. Strange. Kidnapping is always pejorative, capture is more neutral in a war context.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#4)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:34:06 AM EST
    Amnesty International press reease: Israel / Lebanon: End Immediately Attacks Against Civilians Israel/Occupied Territories: Deliberate attacks a war crime TEL AVIV - July 13 - The Israeli and Lebanese governments, and Hizbullah, must take immediate steps to end the ongoing attacks against civilians and civilian objects. Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and amount to war crimes. It is vital at this time of rapidly rising tension that all parties observe the requirements of international humanitarian law, and that other governments take all appropriate steps to insist that they do so. "Israel must put an immediate end to attacks against civilians and against civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, which constitute collective punishment. Israel must also respect the principle of proportionality when targeting any military objectives or civilian objectives that may be used for military purposes," said Malcolm Smart, Director of Amnesty International's Middle East Programme. "Hizbullah must stop launching attacks against Israeli civilians and it must treat humanely the two Israeli soldiers it captured on 12 July and grant them immediate access to the International Committee of the Red Cross," said Malcolm Smart. The organization also called on the Lebanese government to take concrete measures to ensure that Hizbullah complies with these obligations under international law.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#5)
    by Al on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:34:43 AM EST
    Israel's attack on Gaza and now Lebanon is completely and utterly out of proportion to the kidnappings that supposedly triggered these attacks. In the end, as usual the people caught in the middle bear the brunt of the destruction. Their homes are destroyed, their farms are destroyed, their infrastructure is destroyed, and the survivors live only to see their families destroyed. For once, TL, I have to disagree strongly. I have no sympathy for the Israeli "defence" forces, for they are clearly out to wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the Earth. It's as simple as that. The Israeli government knows they can do this because the United States, their main source of funding and weapons, will support them instead of leveraging their influence to push for compromise and true peace. The Europeans may protest indignantly, but Israel will ignore them. The Arab countries may show outward restraint and say Hezbollah started it, but this is only a prudent reaction to a devastating offensive by a very powerful army. The Arab countries are probably quite happy to see Israel embroiled in a guerrilla war. I don't think Israel can "win" this, any more than the US can "win" in Iraq. In any case, personally I could not care less who "wins", or who "started it". What I care about are the unarmed people caught in the middle. They are exactly like me, they are my brothers and sisters, and I weep for them.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#6)
    by Al on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:35:57 AM EST
    Squeaky, good point about the word "kidnappings". I used the word myself, and I take it back.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#7)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:39:42 AM EST
    From the International Committee of the Red Cross: ICRC - Bulletin No. 01/06 - Gaza GAZA - July 13 - General situation The humanitarian situation in Gaza remains precarious as its 1.4 million inhabitants suffer the effects of the Israeli operation "Summer Rain." The number of casualties is increasing daily. As at 10 July 55 Palestinians had been killed and over 180 injured since the beginning of the operation, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health. These numbers include both civilians and militants. On the Israeli side, one soldier had been killed in action. Infrastructure was the main target during the first days of the Israeli military operation. The destruction of the power plant in Nusseirat resulted in the loss of half the power supply in the Gaza Strip. Water pumps and hospitals are now relying on fuel-driven generators and electricity partly provided by Israel. Rotating outages are occurring in Gaza City, where power is supplied from 6 to 12 hours per day in each area. The Gaza Strip has been sealed off to a large extent by the Israeli authorities since 25 June. Karni, the main crossing point into Gaza for imported goods and humanitarian aid, has remained closed most of the time. It was opened briefly on 2 July to allow UN convoys to bring humanitarian supplies into Gaza and on 4 and 6 July to allow ICRC-provided supplies to enter (see details below). Erez crossing point has been used twice by the ICRC - on 10 and 11 July - to transport goods into Gaza. For 10 days Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahiya, in the northern part of the Gaza Strip, were severely affected by military operations and remained inaccessible for two days each. The power and water supply networks in both towns reportedly suffered extensive damage. Two Palestinian rockets hit the town of Ashqelon, Israel, on 5 and 6 July. Although there were no victims, the range of these rockets, believed to be around 12 kilometres, has alarmed the Israeli population. On 8 and 9 July, rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot, wounding four Israeli civilians. Maintaining an adequate water supply a major concern The ICRC has assessed the water and sanitation situation in the Gaza Strip. Although no acute shortages of water or of fuel to run pumps and power the supply systems have as yet been reported, the situation remains precarious. Since only a few humanitarian organizations are permitted to take fuel and other goods into Gaza, stocks could quickly dwindle or vanish altogether. The situation is aggravated by widespread dependence on generators, which are at risk of breaking down owing to excessive use.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:40:07 AM EST
    Well I guess the price of gas is going to increase. Is kidnapping a soldier a recognized "act of war"? I don't know.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:43:27 AM EST
    robodruid-
    Is kidnapping a soldier a recognized "act of war"?
    this conflict is so heated up that sneezing is tantamount to an act of war.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:45:48 AM EST
    Chris Allbritton of Back-to-Iraq has been in Lebanon for some time now and has a few interesting posts on the current madness. "Marines die, that's what we're here for." Lee Ermey from FULL METAL JACKET Today it's civilians die first, that's what they're there for.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#11)
    by cmpnwtr on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM EST
    Opposed as I am to the Israeli appropriation of Palestinian land, this deliberate escalation by Hamas and Hezbollah is an attempt to sabotage any kind of peace process and provoke an all out war. The government of Lebanon is fully responsible if it allows a private army and terrorist organization to operate on its soil.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:50:17 AM EST
    Israel has legitimate self-defense issues. However, that being said their actions have been completely inappropiate. The Israelis kill people on the beach and thats ok. The Palestinians grab 1 soldier and that some how allows Israel to arrest the government, bomb the infrastructure, and impose collective punishement on the entire Gaza strip is hypocritical at best. The response has been completely out of proportion. The failure to see both sides of this issue is what has caused and will continue to cause proplems. Meanwhile, while one soldier is held 9000 Palestinians rot in Israeli jails in a process that closely resembles Gitmo, without charges, access to defense. It is ludicrious to oppress an entire area and people while unilaterally doing waht ever you want and then get angry when a few retaliate. They had free elections so when the US and Israel dont like the result they arrest the government. Well so much for Democracy in the ME. Israeli has refused to negotiate. Given that many of the neocons have close ties with the Likud party and given some of ther rhetoric coming from them blaming Iran and Syria for all the problems one has to wonder whether the second reason for Israel's actions are to force Bush's hand against Iran. The neocons and Israeli have been very vocal in the last couple of weeks concerning Bush's lack of action. To let Israeli completely off the hook for their actions over the last couple of weeks demonstrates an amazing lack of understanding of what is going on. Israel deserves to be safe, they however should not be allowed to commit blatent war crimes which collective punishment is. But the war mongers will be happy for Israel pouring gasoling on the ME fire. What to you do if they force Bush's hand and he attacks Iran using baby nukes? Then what? There will be further escalation. The US needs to resume its role as an unbiased negotiator, but that seems completely unlikly. So keep up with the blind support of Israel and watch the whole ME go up in flames.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:53:42 AM EST
    For once, TL, I have to disagree strongly. I have no sympathy for the Israeli "defence" forces, for they are clearly out to wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the Earth. It's as simple as that.
    That is absolutely ridiculous- it is exactly the other way around. If the Palestinians followed a truce there would never be another Israeli attack, but the Palestinians will never stop the violence. "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." -Golda Meir The Arab world clearly wants Israel gone- how can you be so blind to this?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#14)
    by BigTex on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:59:03 AM EST
    I have no sympathy for the Israeli "defence" forces, for they are clearly out to wipe the Palestinian people off the face of the Earth. It's as simple as that.
    If that's what they wanted to do, nothing would be left in the West Bank and Gaza now. It is Hamas that uses that type of rhetoric, not Israel. They use the rhetoric of a two state solution, without the right of return. Think about it. The Palestinians have no fixed wing aircraft. Nether does Lebanon. What's to stop Israel from firebombing the population centers like we did to Japan at the end of WWII? Noting. If they wanted to do so they could be right now. Eventually international pressure may force a halt, but in the mean time they could have eliminated large tracts of areas where their enemies reside. Also, Israel could cut off the power and water supply to the Palestininas. Think of how quickly the situation would deteoriate then. No power, no water, and no way to bring in any fuel to run emergency generators or emergency pumps because of the blockaid. If they wanted to harm the masses, they easily could do so. They haven't done so at this point, but have earned the right to do so after 6 years of their civilinas being targeted.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:01:34 AM EST
    Great comments everyone. Keep them coming. I'm learning from all of you.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:05:39 AM EST
    BigTex where the hell have you been Israel is doing those things. They have cut power, water, made it difficult for food to get it. Hamas kidnaps 1 soldier and the world goes nuts. Israel bombs a house kill 9 people in one family 7 of whom where children and no one says anything. Given this unbalanced attitude, what do you expect. Yeah Israel talks about 2 states and then does everything it can to sabotage it and/or make the geography so it cant work. My Israel friend who was a much decorated tank commander in the 6 day war got so fed up with the hypocrisy that he gave up his Israel citizenship as a moral protest.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:08:50 AM EST
    but have earned the right to do so after 6 years of their civilinas being targeted
    And what right have the Palestinians got when the IDS forces buldoze houses and kill innocent women and children? I supposed they are not allowed to respond to the collective punishment.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#18)
    by fafnir on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:09:10 AM EST
    The Reuters UK article CHRONOLOGY - Six months of rising Mideast tensions offers some prospective leading up to today's event:
    (Reuters) - Hizbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers and killed up to seven Israelis in Lebanese border violence on Wednesday, inflaming Middle East tensions.
    Here is a short chronology of the Middle East conflict since the beginning of the year.
    January 25 - Islamic militant group Hamas defeats Fatah movement of moderate President Mahmoud Abbas in first Palestinian parliamentary election in a decade.
    March 29 - Abbas swears in Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and his government.
    June 9 - Hamas armed wing calls off 16-month-old truce after seven family members are killed on a Gaza beach during a day of Israeli shelling. Israel denies responsibility for the deaths.
    June 13 - Israel kills 11 Palestinians, nine of them civilians, in a missile strike on a van carrying militants and rockets in Gaza.
    June 25 - Gaza militants launch deadly raid into Israel, killing two soldiers and capturing Corporal Gilad Shalit. Three days later Israel pushes into Gaza.
    June 29 - Israeli troops in the West Bank detain one third of the Palestinian cabinet and nearly two dozen Hamas lawmakers.
    July 3 - Israeli forces move into northern Gaza. Three days later the offensive is expanded after a rocket fired by Hamas hits the Israeli city of Ashkelon for the first time.
    July 8 - Haniyeh calls for a cease-fire with Israel. Jewish state says militants must first free the captured soldier and halt rocket attacks.
    July 12 - Hizbollah guerrillas capture two Israeli soldiers and kill up to seven around the Lebanese border. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert calls it an "act of war" by Lebanon.
    -- Israel broadens Gaza offensive and cuts the strip in two. Attacks, including an air raid that kills nine family members, take the Palestinian toll from the offensive to well over 70.


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:11:57 AM EST
    running over peaceful protestors with bulldozers and shooting children for throwing rocks, firing missiles in crowded cities to take out an individual is not what I call 'keeping the gloves on." They were well on the way to peace via the Oslo accords until Ariel Sharon ignited the current problems by taking 1000 troops and occupying the Temple Mount in a move he knew would trigger Arab resentment. Then he used the resulting violence to get his hardline gov't elected and the violence has worsened to this day. Many, many more innocent palestininians have died than israelis. and if it wasn't for the US enabling them the israelis would have had to make peace years ago. This isn't anti-semitic, it's anti-israeli, or anyone who wages war against a civilian population.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#20)
    by Slado on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:16:31 AM EST
    Big Tex has hit it right on the head. Isreal is a soverign nation. It is not Isreals fault that the Arab nations want to see them banished from the face of the earth. Isreal has been under constant attack from it's neighbors since its creation. One can make a legitimate argument that it isn't fair to Palestinians that they had to be moved to create a jewish state but that argument is long over. When one criticizes Isreal one should remember that this is not Iraq. Isreal did not invade it's territory it is simply defending its boarders. Is it a fair fight between Isreal and its neighbors? No. Isreal has one of the greatest armies in the world. Probably only second to the U.S. Just because you have bigger guns doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to use them. Please save us the Palestinian propoganda when arguing against Isreal. Hezbollah ambushed an Isreali boarder patrol killing 5 or 7 soldiers and then kept two. That's called kidnapping. The bomb that blew up on a Palestianian beach was most likely from a Palestianian bomb that went off too early. Not an Isreali shell. You have to believe terrorist propoganda over the isreali government to believe that allegation. When criticizing Isreal one should ask themself what would our any reasonable country do if it suffered car bombings etc... on a daily basis and knew who was commiting these crimes, where they lived and that they won't stop util they are dead. Would England, France, Russis the USA be as restrained and patient when dealing with an unreasonable foe who is determined do see you destroyed. You can play the moral equivalency card all you want. Isreal is a democratic nation fighting terrorist orginizations. Who are we to judge?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#21)
    by BigTex on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:19:08 AM EST
    BigTex where the hell have you been Israel is doing those things. They have cut power, water, made it difficult for food to get it.
    Soc, with all due respect, you don't know what you are takling about. Israel has hit power facilities, but also is sending power to run emergency services. The desal plants are co-operated, but it would be easy for the Israeli army to move in and divert the water supply away from the palestinian areas. Israel could refuse to provide any power and water. Then you would see a major humanitarian crisis. Israel could refuse to let fuel shipments go in to hospitals to run the generators. They haven't done so. They are striking a balance between making the population uncomfortable, and eliminating essential services. They have allowed food to go in. Not freely, but enough to keep starvation at bay. How long do you think the palestinains could hold out if Israel decided to have a total blockaid? Esssential services would fail in a week, if not less. Food would run out in that time. Water would run out in far less. You say that Israel is overreacting, but what about all the suicide bombers that target the civilin population in Israel? The civialinas Israel has killed are in the proximity to those who are planning, working towards, or carrying out attacks on Israel. Israel hasn't targeted civilians. Don't think that Israel is attempting to eliminate the civialian population. All they want to do is make them uncomfortable. Make them realise that there are consiquences for their government not acting to stop the attacks on Israel. Compare that to what the other side is doing. They are firing rockets into civilian populations with the goal of inflicting casualties on the civilians. It's night and day. And, even more importantly, this is the normal pattern of behavior for those attacking Israel. It's just that Israel finally has had enough and is taking off the kiddie gloves and fighting back in earnest. Re the collective punishment, the punishment is for attacks on Israel. The root of all of this is that Arafat refused a deal that would have given him 99% of what he wanted, and he responded by unleashing suicide bombers. That was the opening salvo. Israel has attempted other measures, but they have failed. When you build a security fence and pull back behind the fence, that's a good sign that you want to live in peace. Once rockets start flying over the fence, that's a good sign that the other side wants the fight to continue. At this point let the battle take place, it is what Hamas and Hezbolla want, they just are stunned that they are going to actually have to fight this time.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#22)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:26:19 AM EST
    Slado is the perfect example of an Israeli apologist. A few terroris condem an entire people, Israeli does no wrong blah blah blah. The Palestinians shouild be happy they are oppressed, malnourished, killed indiscriminately. After all they are just dark skin Muslims. In October of 2004 I posted an article on the killing of Palestinian children by the IDS. This was prompted by an article in an Israeli newspaper also condeming the IDS actions. Its here A quote from Mr Levy from the Haaretz
    The plain fact, which must be stated clearly, is that the blood of hundreds of Palestinian children is on our hands. No tortuous explanation by the IDF Spokesman's Office or by the military correspondents about the dangers posed to soldiers by the children, and no dubious excuse by the public relations people in the Foreign Ministry about how the Palestinians are making use of children will change that fact. An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.
    My conclusion was:
    We see quite clearly that the actions of the Israelis against the Palestinians mirror our actions against Iraqis. We have dehumanized them to the point where the indiscriminate killing of civilans is of no concern to the soldiers, this administration, the press, and a great many of our citizens. So there you have it. Two of the supposedly great, well educated, self-proclaimed moral democracies of the world engaging in inhuman, indiscriminate killing of innocent people including children without much protest. We have lost our souls and our moral bearings. If this is what democracy is about, why would anyone want to adopt it? For us, we need to ask ourselves is this really the kind of country we want? One that murders during elective wars and doesn't care.


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:27:01 AM EST
    You have to go back not 6 months but 6 years to see how this started, and I don't think the PLO instigated it.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#24)
    by Al on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:28:28 AM EST
    Granola, I recommend Juan Cole's excellent piece in Salon on Israel's failed-state strategy. One of the most poignant images I have ever seen from Palestine wasn't even bloody, but it spoke volumes. Israel had occupied a Palestinian city, I forget which, and the streets were deserted except for Israeli tanks. The TV image showed a tank driving up a street, where to one side and out of the way of the tank was a car. The tank actually swerved out of its way to roll over the parked car, destroying it, and then swerved back to its original path. To me, that said everything about what Israel was really up to there. Israel systematically bulldozes homes and burns olive groves. This has nothing to do with terrorist attacks, and everything to do with decimating the population. Fully half the population of Palestine are children. Big Tex, Israel actually is cutting off the power and water supply to the Palestinians. They really are. And please, stop and think about what you are saying:
    If they wanted to harm the masses, they easily could do so. They haven't done so at this point, but have earned the right to do so after 6 years of their civilians being targeted.
    Earned the right? Do you really think "harming the masses", as you put it, is a right, that you earn somehow? Big Tex, I'm sure you are more civilized than that. Calm down, and remember that those masses are victims, half of them children.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:29:14 AM EST
    Israel wouldn't be a 'soverign nation' for 2 minutes if we didn't support them.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:29:21 AM EST
    Big Tex so your argument boils down to Israel could be meaner. How pathetic can you get. Israel has clear interfered with and harmed basic services in the last 2 weeks. Sorry it doesn make your threshold for being significant. You guys will get what what youve always wanted all out war in the ME. Have a nice time in hell.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#27)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:38:22 AM EST
    An ahistorical approach that ignores the entire history of a several generation conflict and frames the issue as: this response is out of proportion to the kidnap/capture/apprehension (whatever you want to call it) is absurd. Israel doesn't want to "wipe Palestininians" off the map-- it recognizes and has fairly good relations with Jordan which is a Palestininian state by any historical context. It has also returned much of the post-1948 land it conquered AFTER BEING ATTACKED in subsequent wars. It is simply false to claim Israel is the aggressor. In the absence of Arab aggression Israel would bever have controlled anything beyond its 1948 borders and it would have no need to use force now if people would just stop attacking it. the argument that we get to attack you on our terms but you can only respond on our terms is nonsensical. If you want to fight then the other side gets to determine the response. Let's suppose the United States one day was to use San Diego as a base of operations to attack Tijuana and the Mexicans not only repelled the attack but took control of San Diego. Then let's assume Americans continued to use San Diego to launch attacks on Mexico. How many of you would argue that the solution would be for Mexico to withdraw from San Diego? Then assuming Mexico did withdraw and the only result was more attacks from San Diego on mexican civilians would argue that the Mexico had no right to defend itself by attacking San Diego? Somehow, I doubt the outrage from the Far Left over "Mexican aggression" would be the same.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#28)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:39:51 AM EST
    911 is just a drop in the bucket compared to what we go through. We invaded two countries afterwards. If Israel rteacted like America, we would have one world government, with everyone speaking hebrew. Israel's history is a series of arab or palestinian attacks, followed by an Israeli victory. Just because the palestinians continually lose does not give them the moral highground. "Capture" is what happens when soldiers dont kill an enemy in battle. "Kidnap" or "abduct" would be the correct terms here. When a market is bombed, or a pizza parlor, is that not "collective" punishment? Or is it just wrong when Israel hits someone near a legitimate target?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:41:42 AM EST
    SD - You fail to grasp the base fact that Lebanon cannot, and does not, control the terrorists. Until it does, it will reap not what it has sowed, but what it has allowed to grow. Al writes:
    The tank actually swerved out of its way to roll over the parked car, destroying it, and then swerved back to its original path. To me, that said everything about what Israel was really up to there.
    Al, you note that the tank was within an occupied city. Cars are weapons when loaded with high explosives, as we have seen demostrated all over the world. Destroying one makes perfect sense when you stop to think.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#30)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:46:05 AM EST
    "SD - You fail to grasp the base fact that Lebanon cannot, and does not, control the terrorists. Until it does, it will reap not what it has sowed, but what it has allowed to grow." I agree with that. The Lebanese are not entirely without fault but simply have no real ability to control ther "refugees" within their borders. To a large degree Lebabon has a sovereign government in name only and militarily it is essentially powerless. It's a shame because not so long ago Lebanon was socially and culturally an advanced society by regional standards.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:48:42 AM EST
    Juan Cole gives a sober and fair assessment of the latest imbroglio.
    Rejectionists on both sides are to blame. The Oslo Peace Process could have forestalled all this violence, as Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin understood. But on the Israeli side, the then Likud Party of Bibi Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert derailed it. On the Palestinian side, Hamas rejected it. Had there been a peace process, prisoners would have been released in return for a cessation of hostilities, and there would have been no motivation to capture Israeli soldiers.
    Worth reading the rest. Implications for Iraq, but no answers though (shortish.)

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#32)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:50:57 AM EST
    You have to go back not 6 months but 6 years to see how this started, and I don't think the PLO instigated it.
    With all due respect, Sailor, you have to go back considerably more than 6 years to when Zionism and British guilt about the Holocaust resulted in the creation of the state of Israel. It was started by terrorists, and continues to terrorize. Zionists destroyed more than 700 Palestinian villages in 1948 and 1949, and slaughtered countless thousands of people as ethnic cleansing was taken to a new level. Today, in the spirit of Nazi occupation, they revel in bloody reprisals that are out of all proportion to the acts they are so enthusiastically avenging. Zionist Christians will be happy about what's happening right now, since they believe that the battle of Armageddon will take place in Lebanon, and this battle will result in the end of the world and the return of Jesus Christ. Oh Happy Day.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:53:43 AM EST
    Al, you note that the tank was within an occupied city. Cars are weapons when loaded with high explosives, as we have seen demostrated all over the world. Destroying one makes perfect sense when you stop to think.
    Right ppj, a tank will roll over a car because it may have a carbomb. Right. Please, if this is what you come up with when you "stop to think" it is best that you start jogging. Only you could come up with such a lazy response/excuse.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#34)
    by Punchy on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:54:25 AM EST
    Ah...the vicious cycle Israel just keeps rerunning...they really are just sewing their own discontent. They bomb water plants, electricity, and civilian homes. That leaves Palestinians without food, shelter, etc. Conditions which BREED resentment, revenge....terror. They go and bomb Israel as payback until Israel pulls back a little. A year or two later, Israel does it all over again. They're breeding the very terrorists that bomb them by setting up the conditions that incubate such hatred. Israel, right now, is trying to kill a fly with a stick of TNT. And they'll see the results of it not today or tomorrow, but months down the road. Just after all the Palestinians have had buried their mothers.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#35)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:55:05 AM EST
    Squeaky, As usual, Juan Cole nailed it. The Israeli right wing feeds off the frustration of constant attack, and fuels the worst instincts. Part of the problem is also that (with the partial exception of Jordan), no Arab country will let the Palestinians in, nor will they grant citizenship. The living conditions for Palestinians end up as "temporary" camps that have been operating since the '40s. It will take a regional solution to solve this. The participation of arab countries would be crucial. Sadly, rhetoric aside, the arab countries dont care what happens to the palestinians.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:56:15 AM EST
    Decon, Many societies were evolved as Lebanon was, Iran, Iraq, even Afghanistan for heaven's sake, but were sacrificed by the East and West on the alter of the Cold War, which, in retrospect, seems like the most quaint waste of resources and potential in history. Who wouldn't rather deal with the Kremlin or the DDR than AQ or the like? That we're sacrificing them again in the great Terrorist Wars is more wretched food to force down and then hurl up.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#37)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:57:14 AM EST
    "Juan Cole gives a sober and fair assessment of the latest imbroglio. Rejectionists on both sides are to blame. The Oslo Peace Process could have forestalled all this violence, as Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin understood. But on the Israeli side, the then Likud Party of Bibi Netanyahu and Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert derailed it. On the Palestinian side, Hamas rejected it. Had there been a peace process, prisoners would have been released in return for a cessation of hostilities, and there would have been no motivation to capture Israeli soldiers." That's essentially a tautology. Sure, if both sides agreed to and abided by truce there would be one. If they don't agree then there isn't one. No insight there. Meaningful analysis requires considering WHY the parties can't agree and what, if anything, the parties might be willing to do to achieve it.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#38)
    by roxtar on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 11:58:59 AM EST
    There's no war like a religious war.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#39)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:01:06 PM EST
    D- Sadat was killed for making peace. No other Arab leader has tried to make peace since then. Governments in the region try to make peace, and the local palestinian population has fits. The Israelis have tried, Egypt tried, Jordan pretty much pulls it off, as long as the rhetoric is loud enough. The Iranians use the Palestinians to their own ends. There will be peace when the palestinians desire peace

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#40)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:02:22 PM EST
    We decry genocide when it takes place in Rwanda or Darfur, and yet we stand by cheerleading the Israelis (or at least make excuse after excuse for them when they respond with horrific violence and openly advocate the assassination of lawfully and democratically elected leaders). They have openly stated the desire to destroy an elected government and seem to relish wreaking as much harm as possible upon innocents with their indiscriminate bombing in densely populated areas. No matter what their beef is with the government Palestinians chose, the murder of innocents is never called for, and simply serves as a reminder that there is still not yet, and maybe never will be, any truly "civilized" societies in the Middle East, other than those that inhabited that region of the world for thousands of years, and that has been the case since, oh, sometime in the 40's. Jesus' Seventh of Eight Beatitudes: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. There is, apparently, no danger that anyone in the Middle East will be called a child of god, even amongst those who claim religious superiority over others. I am not anti-Semetic, but I do recognize that Israel is not an agent of peace and prosperity for all.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#41)
    by Steven Sanderson on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:02:33 PM EST
    Israel's vastly disproportionate response to Hezbollah's hostage taking, combined with Bush's failure to restrain Israel, is guaranteed to ignite massive blow-back against us throughout the region. We'd better be willing to pay a high price for Bush's unwillingness to act evenhandedly in the dispute.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#42)
    by Punchy on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:06:56 PM EST
    Steve--
    We'd better be willing to pay a high price for Bush's unwillingness to act evenhandedly in the dispute.
    Unwillingness, or inability? I'm willing to say the latter. Or, knowing the clown who occupies our WH, perhaps both. I bet he's reading My Pet Goat as we speak (and Israel slices and dices the Lebanese)....

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#43)
    by cmpnwtr on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:21:21 PM EST
    Things would not have deteriorated this far had a Gore administration been in place. That said... there can never be any credible peace process anywhere in the Middle East as long as violent militias have the run of the place and governments look the other way or covertly support them. Is there a government in Lebanon, or in the Palestinian territories.. nope.. just militias who do what they please and hide behind civilian populations.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#44)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:26:45 PM EST
    Israel's vastly disproportionate response to Hezbollah's hostage taking, combined with Bush's failure to restrain Israel, is guaranteed to ignite massive blow-back against us throughout the region.
    Bush is doing far worse than failing to restrain Israel. He is actively encouraging Israel, and makes no bones about it with his "Israel has the right to defend herself" remarks. Why in God's name is the government of the U.S. placing its own citizens in jeopardy because of its unqualified support for a foreign government? It's helpful to remember that before Israel, the U.S. had no enemies in the Middle East; now it has no friends. (Yes, Jim, and I'll say it again, too.)

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#45)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:29:16 PM EST
    When Isreal cut off the Palestinians, it's only logical where the next line of access would come from. Lebanon has been quiet for 20 years. There will never be peace without the right of return. That's the only issue that stopped real peace on several occaisons. Nice road map, Monkey Boy.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#46)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:41:19 PM EST
    And the right of return will never be recognized by Israel, and the cycle will continue unabated. But it's simply everyday people, as Sly and the Family Stone said, that get screwed. When will Arab governments welcome Palestinians with generosity? Where is Europe welcoming Jews back with open arms and restitution? Where is the simple concern for greater humanity here? Nowhere, as I see it. God isn't merely dead, he's cremated and scattered, and no autopsy can be performed.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:53:38 PM EST
    Before I start my rant, I don't support either side in this. They are fools of equal magnitude. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that in this, like any other conflict, it doesn't really matter any more "who started it". The situation as it currently stands is that the Israelis and Palestinians live in close proximity and they have to come to some sort of agreement as to how to do that without either side killing off the other. How? Good faith negotiation. It seems that both sides have negotiated with less than "good faith" in the past, and it may require the assistance of Big Brother to help them find a reasonable compromise. But this, as with any other territorial or philosophical dispute, will never be solved by blowing each other up.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#48)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:54:13 PM EST
    An excerpt from The Gaza/Lebanon Crises: Escalating Occupation & Danger of New Border Fighting By Phyllis Bennis Institute for Policy Studies July 12, 2006 • The Israeli attacks constitute collective punishment of the entire Gazan population, and have created a humanitarian crisis of unprecedented proportions in Gaza. • All these attacks violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, which sets out the obligations of occupying powers and specifically prohibits collective punishments, "targeted" assassinations, and destruction of the infrastructure of an occupied territory. 
 • Israel's assault on Gaza does not constitute a re-occupation, because Israel's occupation of Gaza never ended. • The expansion of the military escalation to Lebanon represents a potentially serious threat of escalation, especially if there is involvement from Syria. 
 • The ongoing crisis is political, not just humanitarian. It reflects the failure of Israeli unilateralism, the failure of the "Roadmap," the failure of the U.S.-orchestrated exclusion of the UN, and failure of the international community and the UN to intervene. • The Gaza escalation demonstrates once again the need for an entirely new, international (not U.S.-sponsored) diplomatic process based on international law and human rights, aimed at ending the occupation and establishing equal rights for all, the only basis for a just, lasting and comprehensive peace in the region.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:54:19 PM EST
    That's essentially a tautology. Sure, if both sides agreed to and abided by truce there would be one. If they don't agree then there isn't one. No insight there. Meaningful analysis requires considering WHY the parties can't agree and what, if anything, the parties might be willing to do to achieve it.
    Tautology?? No it is a quote and a link. Deconstructionist, ha ha ha. You have shown your hand.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#50)
    by Andreas on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 12:59:00 PM EST
    The WSWS writes:
    The characterisation of the Hezbollah action as "unprovoked" is both grotesque and absurd. The cross-border raid by the Lebanese Shiite group comes after two weeks of escalating Israeli aggression in Gaza that has left more than 60 Palestinians dead. Moreover, Israel has never abandoned its territorial ambitions in Lebanon and Syria. To this day it has retained the Shebaa Farms, a 25 square-kilometre area of Lebanese agricultural land. It was captured by Israel in the 1967 war and again in 1973 and has been occupied ever since. The fate of Shebaa Farms is bound up with that of the much larger Golan Heights, which it is adjacent to. Formerly known as the Syrian Heights, the Golan Heights is a strategic plateau on the border of Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. It was captured by Israel in the 1967 war and again in 1973 and has been occupied ever since.
    Israel launches military assault on Lebanon By Chris Marsden, 13 July 2006

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#51)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    Squeaky: Quoting a tautology and providing the link to where you find it makes it no less a banal tautology.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:04:42 PM EST
    soccerdad: "The Palestinians grab 1 soldier and that some how allows Israel to arrest the government, bomb the infrastructure, and impose collective punishement on the entire Gaza strip..." Yes, sd, collective punishment is unacceptable.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#53)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:08:09 PM EST
    Andreas, You may remember that Syria attacked Israel using the Golan heights for their artillery. You make it sound like they moved there for the view Theo, When a suicide bomber hits a pizza parlor in Jerusalum, is that a military target?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#54)
    by theologicus on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:15:18 PM EST
    When a suicide bomber hits a pizza parlor in Jerusalem, does that justify committing war crimes in retaliation?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#55)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:16:24 PM EST
    Roger, It's a target designed to inflict death, mutilation and fear, obviously. No one would argue that. But both sides do this. Everyone's sh*t stinks. Claiming otherwise is prolonging the agony. Remember, part of what won the Revolutionary War for the American colonists, our political and social ancestors, was irregular warfare of the geurilla type, which the British condemned as barbaric. You know what happened to many British sympathizers? They were butchered. I'll repeat: everyone's sh*t smells. Always has and always will. Dealing with the communal stink is just that, a communal problem.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#56)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:19:15 PM EST
    Helping to Create a failed state and criticizing that failed state for not doing what you want is hypocritical and a useless exercise. It is becoming clearer by the day that neocons want all out war in the region. Will Bush follow the neocons? Is anyone advocating a saner approach? For those not familiar with the link between the neocons and the Likud party google look at what it says and who helped write it. I would reccommend that people read Kinzer's new book Overthrow : America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq It demonstrates a number of lessons. The most important maybe that the US government regardless of the party in office, is unable or unwilling to try and determine what the long term consequences of their foreign policy decisions might be. Its always looked at in terms of immediate consequences and then slogans are substituted for the long range outcome. Its been going on for 100 years. However, with the possible use of nuclear bunker busters against Iran we may be marching right up to the edge of the abyss. If we use them, then everyone else will think ok, its fair game to use nukes. The neocons obsession with raw power and brutality combined with a disdain for negotiation and a real foreign policy may put this country and even under the worse case scenario the world in a very precarious situation. So is Israel pouring on the gasoline and the neocons pushing Bush to light the match?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#57)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:21:18 PM EST
    somehow the following was omitted google Israel "clean break"

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:23:13 PM EST
    Given bushco's narrow focus and past I don't hold out much hope for their ability to do it, but it would be good if the bush administration can show that it is able to learn from history and past actions of the US gov't rather than bumbling around and inflaming the situation when backing up Israel in this:
    "The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced." "I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy." "The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond." "And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children." Osama Bin Ladin, 2004


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:32:26 PM EST
    Squeaky: Quoting a tautology and providing the link to where you find it makes it no less a banal tautology.
    What a crock. If you are too lazy to follow the link of a quote before dismissing it you are clearly a puffed up fake. Jumbo sized with no content. Pretentious moniker as well, that is unless you have modeled yourself after the Catipillar tractors the Israelies use to crush Palistinian homes. Deconstruction at its worst.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#60)
    by baked potato on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:42:18 PM EST
    Ooookaaay. Any negative comment we make about the rogue nuclear state that practices apartheid within its own borders and (permanent) military occupation of its neighbors must be stifled, lest it seem "anti-semitic." If only Apartheid South Africa had had such a great knee-jerk response with which to threaten its critics, that terrorist Nelson Mandela would still be in jail!

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#61)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:43:39 PM EST
    Dadler, Likud is a disaster for everyone involved

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#62)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 01:48:24 PM EST
    Squeaky: i did follow it and read the entire post. I think the excerpt you saw fir to quote adequately represents the piece. If there is something else in cole's post you think provides any insight, post and say why because i don't think it states anything not simplistically obvious.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#63)
    by Patriot Daily on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:00:05 PM EST
    imho, the US needs to remain objective and fair in order to be credible peace broker. My memory is that before israel was a state, israel "freedom fighter" blew up the King George hotel filled with British civilians. Now, when palestinians do the same they are called terrorists rather than freedom fighters. And, why does Israel have the right to bomb in retaliation when palestinians capture israeli soldiers but palestinans don't have the right to retaliate for the hundreds imprisoned in israeli jails after capture. seems there needs to be some balance and fairness and uniformity in laws of war or no peace can be achieved.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:07:13 PM EST
    July 2000 The Camp David Summit between Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat collapses after Arafat turns down a peace offer made by Barak without giving a counter-offer. Barak was prepared to offer the entire Gaza Strip, a Palestinian capitol in East Jerusalem, over 95% of the West Bank and financial reparations for Palestinian refugees for peace. This was,of course, rejected without any counteroffer unless you consider this a counteroffer They don't want peace they want Israel to go away!

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:18:17 PM EST
    Having been raised a jew, I grew up thinking -indeed assured, that Israel held moral authority in their ongoing battles in the middle east. I don't think so any more. This is all a struggle about occupation. As a real estate attorney, my opinion is that the Palestinians have superior title at least to the occupied teritories. Israel derives its title by the power of a gun, not by the power of the law and principles of justice and equity. Take off those rose colored glasses and see that there is a two thousand pound Israeli guerilla (sic) with its foot on the throat of the Palestinians. Then you'll know why they act with such desperation sometimes.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:19:28 PM EST
    3 minutes ago:
    UNITED NATIONS - The United States cast the first U.N. Security Council veto in nearly two years Thursday, blocking an Arab-backed resolution that would have demanded Israel halt its military offensive in the Gaza Strip The draft, sponsored by Qatar, accused Israel of a "disproportionate use of force" that endangered Palestinian civilians, and it demanded Israel withdraw its troops from Gaza.


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#67)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:19:39 PM EST
    The US has tried to broker peace. Camp David, and actual intervention. Remember the Beirut embassy bombing? Peace is impossible if only one side (and not all of them either) want it. Baked- You probably havent noticed that there are many anti-Israel posts here that have not been deleted. It is possible to discuss this topice without hatred. As to NM, most people forget that SA offered to release him if he renounced violence. He never did.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#68)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:29:11 PM EST
    Roger mentioned:
    You probably havent noticed that there are many anti-Israel posts here that have not been deleted. It is possible to discuss this topice without hatred.
    And you probably haven't noticed that being anti-Zionist is not the same as being anti-semitic. Try googling "Jews against Zionism"; it might help you understand the current situation a little better.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#69)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:34:43 PM EST
    JM, Sadly, in many people, the two overlap completely

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#70)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:38:56 PM EST
    ..... and that was kind of my point

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 02:45:24 PM EST
    What would make the Palestinians happy short of the anihilation of Israel?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#72)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:00:37 PM EST
    What would make the Palestinians happy short of the anihilation of Israel?
    probably you could start with a homeland, jobs, access to food water, medical services, not being constantly oppressed and having their children killed. Plenty of Israeli politicians have called for the elimination of the Palestinian people. There are extremist on both sides. The collective punishment and oppression of an entire people for a few will not lead to peace. Lets not forget that the US and Israel refused to identify the new government after the elections. The obvious hypocrisy involved is bad enough, but that leaves a power vacuum and a further sense of hopelessness. Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 helped the formation of Hezbollah. Much like the US actions in Iraq are feuling more extremists, Israel's over reaction will again do the same now as it did in 1982. Unfortunetly, now extremists on both sides are firmly in charge and there seems to no hope for a good outcome. The spiral has been set in motion. The circle of violence is escalating with absoluttely no one willing to but an end to it in a way in which both sides can survive. The world will reap what has been sown in the ME. I have yet to read about an case in history in which one side oppressed the other and it ended well. It would have been one thing to go after Hams and at the same time help Palestinians who were not violent but to lump them all together and do collective punishment will not work in the long run.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#73)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:07:56 PM EST
    Sadly, in many people, the two overlap completely
    That may be, but it's also totally irrelevant. Many people believe that if you're anti-Zionist, you're also anti-semitic. On the other hand, many Jews are anti-Zionist. Does that make them anti-semitic? And that was kind of my point. Roger, how do you answer the question I posed?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:11:27 PM EST
    John Mann - It's the same thinking that makes you anti-america if you are critical of bushco.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#75)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:24:33 PM EST
    JM, I am pro Israel, but anti Likud. Kind of like I'm pro American, but I despise Bush. That being said, Camp David was a good deal for everyone. Israel should probably offer the same deal again, and the Palestinians should jump at the opportunity.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#76)
    by Lww on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:29:27 PM EST
    Nice post sd. Growing up in NY you had to be aware of the Israeli influence on the coverage of this conflict. The Palestinians would kill 4 Israelis, the media blared the headline. Next day the Israeli AF bombed and strafed refugee camps killing 2 or 3 hundred, it was on the 20th page..... "Collective punishment" has been going on for decades, why the big fuss now?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#77)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:32:27 PM EST
    A few Zionist thoughts:
    "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us.. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
    "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
    "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
    "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
    "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
    "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994p. 1]


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:37:41 PM EST
    "Posted by roxtar July 13, 2006 12:58 PM There's no war like a religious war." It is a religious war between factions who worship the same god-damn god, for gods sake. and I agree that Isreal would be another backwater without the massive aid they receive from the US, both formally and through "religious" organizations. Without such aid, I suggest there would be little conflict.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#79)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:37:45 PM EST
    The Likudnik strain has always existed in Israel, just as some ultraorthodox believe that Israel should not exist until the messiah arrives. One could string quotes together from prominent americans to paint the whole country as KKK. That would be about as true as the above post.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#80)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:43:38 PM EST
    One could string quotes together from prominent americans to paint the whole country as KKK. That would be about as true as the above post.
    Nice try.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#81)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:44:37 PM EST
    John Mann, I guess that we know where you stand

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#82)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:47:25 PM EST
    I am also guessing that if I linked together quotes from prominent Palestinians, you would have a fit.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#83)
    by John Mann on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:53:26 PM EST
    John Mann, I guess that we know where you stand
    I think anyone who's been participating in this blog for the past 3/4 years, Roger, knows exactly where I stand.
    I am also guessing that if I linked together quotes from prominent Palestinians, you would have a fit.
    Post them and find out.


    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#84)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:54:09 PM EST
    You could start here or you could try this

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#85)
    by Lww on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:54:37 PM EST
    Roger, the Palestinians aren't angels. We know that. Shouldn't we, as the leading light of capitalism and western "values"(lmao) be on the side of people who have undeniably been living in the most inhumane conditions for 40+ years? Instead of advocating for them we've been financing their mysery.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#86)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:55:40 PM EST
    Yet you ask me the question and I've been posting here long before you. Afraid to answer your own question?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#87)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 03:57:46 PM EST
    LWW, I think that Jimmy Carter had the right idea. US policy now is too one sided. We need to take into account the situation, needs, and politics of both sides. Both sides have their extremists, as well as valid claims

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#88)
    by Lww on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 04:05:56 PM EST
    Roger that is weak. That kind of talk is what we've been hearing for 40 yrs. Do you have a weekend house in the Gaza Strip? Do you think Carter was a one-termer because of his tepid support for Israel? Or Bush Sr? It had something to do with it, you can't convince me it didn't.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#89)
    by Lww on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 04:49:55 PM EST
    Can anyone discuss this without fear of being labeled a hater? It's the big chill. The inhumanity of Israeli and US policy has been biting both of us in the ass for years. Remember when Peres was poised to win the PM spot in the early 80's? Didn't happen. Who did we get? Some terrorist and killer(Shamir or Begin)who acted like it was 1947. If we gave some real money to the Palestinians instead of just paying their bills...who knows? And I know Arafat has a fat bank account.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:28:18 PM EST
    Marx (along with Groucho one of my favorite jews), wasnt right about everything, but he was damned near completely right about one thing: nationalism, tribal mythos, racism etc derive most of their dynamism by serving the purposes of power; in Marxian terms, the ruling class - on all sides. Without Bush's wrapping himself in the flag and scapegoating welfare queens he's nowhere; without the Mullahs having ready infidels at hand to point the finger at they're nowhere; without the mythology of "the Greater Israel" and photo ops with red heifers in the background Likud and it's allies are nowhere. Those intoxicated by Kissinger's "the greatest aphrodisiac" have always known viscerally that, as Orwell said, "Ignorance is strength" (for them).

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:34:45 PM EST
    , tribal mythos, racism etc derive most of their dynamism by serving the purposes of power
    For the first time here on TL I find myself in agreement with Jondee. All conflicts are about power.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:35:44 PM EST
    Ignorance and it's bastard children hatred and fear, are power. As Voltaire said: "Monkeys dressed in silk."

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#93)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:47:00 PM EST
    LWW, You propose to buy them off? LMFAO!

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:48:19 PM EST
    Four words: surface-to-air missiles. That oughta inspire a little "shock and awe" in our zionist brothers and sisters. And level an otherwise grossly disproportionate "playing field". Time to test out those "new and improved" Kassams. And don't mind the collaterals; after all, that sort of thing happens in war, dontcha know. Allahu akbar and all that.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:52:30 PM EST
    "I am surprised that egypt et all are keeping quiet." In a manner. They are actively protecting their border with Gaza - So the Gazans don't flood in. All this surprise about Arab governments dissipates when you contextualize how Arabs and Muslims feel, on a reality basis, not via Western "experts." They don't support Hezbollah because Hezbollah is Shi'a. Iran is talking about leading the Muslim world - not a matter of hope but disgust for the Sunni. Assad of Syria is an Alawite, Shi'a-lite. Hezbollah is an Iranian asset. The earlier Lebanese Shi'a faction, Amal, dissipated in the face of Iranian money to Hezbollah. Hezbollah is not "Lebanese" only. It is an international party, like Ba'ath was, sort of like the Shi'a Muslim brotherhood. There are Hezbollah's in countries like Qatar.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:56:49 PM EST
    Elie Weisel said "The bomb has made us all Jews." Nationalism, tribalism, and all their attendent mythologies (however compelling) need to go. Like yesterday.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#97)
    by roger on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 05:59:36 PM EST
    Interesting that Jordan has the highest population of Palestinians, while also having a peaceful coexistence with Israel.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:01:19 PM EST
    "Lets not forget that the US and Israel refused to identify the new government after the elections." How many countries did, two? Three? Sheesh, some of these posts are reading like 1970's Radio Moscow talking points. Join the left in Western Europe. They're dumping the Palestinians. Once Hamas took over that signaled a religious identity for that government, and a hostile one which privileges jihad. No more Liberation Movement identity with the PLO, Arafat and Soviet imprimaturs.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#99)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:09:07 PM EST
    well the USA calls for Democracy then when they dont get their way they call it null and void. They could have accepted the government and then laid out conditions for working with it, but hell where's the fun in that just too much damn work. They rather be up to their neck in hypocrisy. Why should they negotiate when it doesn't matter what they do.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#100)
    by Lww on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:09:30 PM EST
    Jondee, you forgot religion. Although when most people in the world are struggling it is an opiate.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#101)
    by Aaron on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:12:33 PM EST
    I think the Israeli response to the seizure of one of their citizens is revealing of the disarray that the Israeli government is in. Everyone in the Middle East knows that you can't seize Israeli citizens without there being dire consequences. But to escalate such a situation into a multi-border armed conflict attacking infrastructure and trying to destabilize governments is not only unjustified it's extremely unwise. Now instead of one captured soldier and a few dead we've got three Israeli hostages, and perhaps hundreds dead. For reasons only they know, those in control of the Israeli government are escalating the situation to the breaking point. The rocket attacks in Haifa will lead to more retaliation in the form of shelling and bombings in Lebanon, which I'm watching on CNN right now, which in turn will lead to the deaths of more civilians, and this cycle will continue to spiral out of control. As usual our idiot president comes on TV and says that Israel has a right to defend themselves. Of course they do, but they don't have the right to start a war with semisovereign countries because they're being attacked by Hezbollah. Oh how I wish we had a real president in the White House right now, because we desperately need one. None of the Arab governments in the region can do anything other than bluff up against the force of the Israeli military, they're so heavily outclass. So it's not like there's going to be a war with anyone because no one in the region has the military strength to take on Israel. In fact if the state of Israel were interested in conquest, they could probably invade Lebanon and Syria tomorrow and the war would be over in a matter of weeks, of course then they'd have to deal with an occupation. Thankfully Israel has no such interests, at least up to this point. So what were left with is people shooting rockets and shells at each other until they get tired of doing so or Hezbollah runs out of rockets. Unfortunately a lot of innocent people are going to be killed, and absolutely nothing will be accomplished. This crap is so tribal and so pointless, and I'm so sick of watching it, it seems like I've been watching it my whole life, and I guess we all have. I keep wondering when the people of the Middle East are going to say enough, we've had enough.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:19:55 PM EST
    Well, we all know one thing. None of this upsets the neocons and PNAC signatories any. To paraphrase ppj: fifty signatures, fifty ropes, and fifty lamp posts.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#103)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:23:56 PM EST
    In case this may be of interest: Last week, prior to this escalation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involving Lebanon (and, purportedly, Iran, which allegedly supports terrorist acts against Israel committed by Hezbollah and Hamas), an organization in the UK called "Jews for Justice for Palestine" sponsored a full-page statement (paid advertisement) in the London Times protesting Israel's recent retaliations in Gaza. Over 300 Jewish British citizens signed it. One can find text and a pdf file of the letter ("What Is Israel Doing? A Call by Jews in Britain") on the organization's website here.The site provides information about relevant news reports, upcoming events and conferences relating to the current crisis in the Middle East. Its "news roundup" is running behind; perhaps it will be updated soon here. It provides various local accounts about what is happening in Gaza, e.g. Re: concerns about water in Gaza; the subject of the water supply in the Middle East (mentioned above by theologicus) and potential crises relating to it: Former Czech president Václav Havel hosts a conference called Forum 2000 every year, in which this subject has received continuing attention. More information about the upcoming program is posted on the Forum 2000 website here.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:40:26 PM EST
    If there is something else in cole's post you think provides any insight, post and say why because i don't think it states anything not simplistically obvious.
    For such an obvious point there seems to be tremendous disagreement. One of the first steps to reconcilliation is for both sides to see their hand in the escalation of conflict. What does seem obvious to me is that most commenters here are taking one side without giving any thrift to the other. As Proffesor Cole points out:
    The lesson is that if you refuse to negotiate a peace, then you are likely to have to go on fighting a war.
    For me it seems a very apt starting point to enter into reconcilliation. For you a simple tautology. And your convoluted anology about Mexicans taking over San Diego. Is your point that a Palestinian State should never be allowed to exist because the Palestinians are a bunch of savages? Really hard to figure out what your point was. Intelligent discourse, really? Questions for the far left? Sounds like empty rhetoric to me. You seem to have the same position as the Israeli war hawks, given your Mexican analogy. Juan Cole lays it out:
    The only logical explanation for Olmert's actions, aside from tough-guy posturing, is that he wants to continue to degrade the Palestinian government and radicalize the population. The Israelis cannot get law and order in the territories this way, of course. Nor is there any reason to believe that these massive and disproportionate acts of violence against the Gazans will increase the chance that their captured soldier will be returned. But Olmert clearly has something else on his mind. His actions indicate that his ultimate goal is to ensure that no Palestinian state emerges any time soon that can challenge Israeli plans to annex more of the West Bank and keep its stateless residents divided and weak, prone to outbursts of ineffectual violence and easy to label as "terrorists."
    Salon

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#105)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 06:51:07 PM EST
    Here's a more direct link: ironically, on Wednesday and Thursday of this week, Forum 2000 has been hosting a program on the subject of the water crisis in the Middle East. I wonder how the current situation re: Israel, Lebanon, and Gaza have been entering into their discussions. Given the escalating violence currently taking place, these high-level intellectual discussions seem to be occurring in another "dimension"; yet, they are dealing with extremely practical day-to-day consequences of such escalating violence on residents of this region in the inflammatory contexts of international politics.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#106)
    by BigTex on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:24:10 PM EST
    This is war. It's ugly, but as soc points out, the duly elected government of the palestinians is the force behind the rocket attacks from the gaza strip. That makes it outright war, not just a group of radicals. With Lebanon, the situation is similar. Hezbolla is a significant chunk of the government. That makes it at least a psuedo state action, which makes attacking the coutry fair game. What country would let it's neighbor fire rockets into civilian populations without reprisals? What makes the situation so damning against the palestininas and Lebanon, is that lesser methods to keep the peace have failed. This isn't a case where a DMZ can be set up. Hezbolla is making longer range rockets. Hamas has access to those rockets. This isn't a case where a border security fence stopped the attacks. Hamas slipped through the fence to kidnap the soldier that started the latest wave of violence. What this is, is a case of two relativly young governments not giving up their mentality and not realising that their old habits now carry the force of state action which opens the door to harsh reprisals. When Israel started their punishment, which is what it is, collective punishment, they said that they weren't targeting civilinas, but didn't want them to sleep at night. That no one died from a lack of sleep. That they want the civilinas to be uncomfortable, but not harmed. On the other side, indescriminate rocket fire into civilinan areas. A deliberate targeting of civilians. Whoever said it earlier is right, no side is blameless. But this is the type of war that Lebanon and Hamas want to fight. Lebanon could deploy their troops to the border and try to take out Hezbolla. That likely would be enough to have Israel back down on that front. Israel doesn't care who stops the rockets and roots Hezbolla out of the border, just that it is done. Lebanon can end this part of the crisis at will. All it takes is an attempt to root out the terrorists.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#107)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:25:02 PM EST
    It's hard to say what a proportionate response would be. One view is that this is kind of a mindless vengeance, so it wouldn't be proportionate. But what if the Israels said, give us our guys back and the palis said no? At what point to the Israelis have to stop going after their guys because the pali resistance requires substantial combat power? More to the point, what action would be, proportionate, would stop the pali attacks on Israel, get the soldiers back, and not depend on negotiating with people who were elected on a plank of destroying Israel? Because "sitting down" with them would presume they'd deal. Which, of course, they won't. The palis elected Hamas, presumably with the thought that destroying Israel was pretty keen. That it didn't turn out to be as congenial as they hoped isn't Israel's fault.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#108)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 07:29:36 PM EST
    From War & Peace
    As Sy Hersh said at a talk today, and I'm paraphrasing, sometimes big wars get started almost by accident. He also said based on conversations with his Israeli and Lebanese sources this morning, that Israel's goal may be more limited -- carving out a 20 - 25 mile buffer or free fire zone into southern Lebanon, to prevent Hezbollah from striking into Israel.
    Let's hope he is right.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:03:38 PM EST
    Squeaky writes:
    Right ppj, a tank will roll over a car because it may have a carbomb
    No, it will roll over a car because it wants to prevent it from being used. Makes perfect sense when you extract your head from certain body cavities.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#110)
    by Aaron on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 08:54:23 PM EST
    I'm not impressed with all the extremist rhetoric I see being spouted here on both sides, making the Israeli out to be the spawn of Satan, or demonizing the Palestinians, that's all BS, as anyone who has spent any time in the region will tell you. Or trying to boil it down to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, another specious approach to the argument. There are many in the Middle East who will only be content when every Israeli/Jew is driven into the sea. And there are those on the opposite front who will only be happy when the Palestinians are expelled into neighboring countries. Unfortunately many of these people control the guns and the money on both sides, and at this moment are getting precisely what they're after WAR. It's too bad we can't separate them somewhere and let them exterminate each other, so that the vast majority of people in the Middle East can be left alone to live and let live. While you can't separate what's happened in the past from what's ongoing now, I don't think it's particularly helpful or constructive to dwell on it, since no one in the past has been able to solve this problem or establish any kind of lasting peace. If you just look at the last 50 years, there's more than enough blood to go around on both sides so it serves no purpose to repeat the rhetoric of the past, or perhaps even the present. Maybe if the people in the Middle East could let go of this garbage, there just might actually be some hope. But that's hard even to envision at this point. I'm really not surprised at the actions of the Israeli government, since the current hard-line in Israel is a direct result of the continual suicide bombings by Hamas that were designed to do precisely that, get the hard-liners into power, then goad them into some horrifically lopsided war. That is the agenda of Hamas, Hezbollah and the other fundamentalist factions in the area. Nor would I be surprised if that Palestinian family which was blown up on that Gaza beach was a contrivance of theirs. Last I heard from the forensic evidence, the shell which exploded was 20 years out of date. Or it even could have been an unexploded ordinance accident. That incident seemed to be the flashpoint of this new conflict. I guess it doesn't really matter either way at this point, it's too late to stop it. So much like George W. Bush played into the hands of Osama bin Laden in Iraq, the Israeli hard-line government has played right into the hands of the Islamic fundamentalist movement. Israel should get their ass out of Gaza immediately, and think twice about rolling their tanks into their neighbor's front yard just because somebody gave them a bloody nose. But I guess it's too late for that now as well. Also I don't buy the Iranian connection being put forward as near-fact on Fox news/propaganda. This is just another shameless attempt to provide some pretext for making war on Iran.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#111)
    by oldtree on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 09:17:13 PM EST
    Israel has a wonderful opportunity to change the world, right now, live on TV. Israel has nuclear weapons and can strike and destroy any and all of their neighbors, in a blink. They can do the same thing with their military with conventional weapons. There isn't a single country in the world that would respond in kind, because they are too worried about the black gold. Israel, you may now dictate peace terms in the region, and it is about time.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#112)
    by oldtree on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 09:32:39 PM EST
    those of you that are anti semitic are obvious. your protestations about others that are, as though you are not? you wear it on your sleeve.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 09:34:47 PM EST
    ppj-
    No, it will roll over a car because it wants to prevent it from being used. Makes perfect sense when you extract your head from certain body cavities.
    So, that is why it is OK to kill all brown people, because some may want to cause harm to whites? Not to mention it makes hay out of your argument that guns don't kill, people do, so no more guns. Let's think what else should we preemptively destroy...houses OK, terrorists live in them, casio watches, TV's, toasters, money that is a good one, if we start destroying money the terrorists will surely lose. Let's see shoes, that would not only eliminate those shoe bombers but it would make airport check in much faster. Ooops, airplanes have to go too, they can be used as a missile to ram tall buildings. Hard to think of what we can save, for as you know, perhaps more than any of us, where there is a will there is a way, even if the way is way wayward. PS: are you getting a little, er interested in my anatomy, or are you referring to how I enjoy my friends..... Ooo baby, sex can be distracting, but it ultimately clears the head, you should try it sometime, but please spare us the details.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#114)
    by Andreas on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:08:13 PM EST
    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#115)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:12:58 PM EST
    So, that is why it is OK to kill all brown people, because some may want to cause harm to whites? Not to mention it makes hay out of your argument that guns don't kill, people do, so no more guns.
    Squeaky, with all due respect, and understanding that your comments to ppj are colored by months, if not years, of debate and conflict with him (remarkably similar to the israelis and palestinians, interestingly enough) but that comment is total bupkis.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#116)
    by Sailor on Thu Jul 13, 2006 at 10:14:44 PM EST
    John Mann, I agree, but I think the latest atrocities are directly attributied to Sharon's acts in 2000. And gee, what a coincidence, clinton the peacemaker goes out of office and bush the warmonger comes in.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#117)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 05:53:21 AM EST
    An interesting snipet from an interview with Mubarak. He said he had worked out a deal with Hamas and Israel to free Shalit, the first captured Israeli soldier. According to Mubarek, some unnamed outside party (speculated by the press to be Iran) pressured Hamas into backing away from the deal. Subsequent to this potential ending of the Gaza incursion, came the raid by Hezbollah from Lebanon, which touched of the next escalation of the crisis. Regardless of what one might think of the proportionality of Israel's response (and there certainly is room for disagreement), it is pretty clear that the militant powers in the region have absolutely no wish to see the armed confrontation end. Each and every time there is some opportunity to cool the tensions, they step in and attempt to raise the heat again. The hardline Islamists in the region are very happy to have people die to continue their dream of a pan-islamic state. So happy in fact, that they have raised death to the pinnacle of all achievement. Because the sentiment is drawn from religious conviction, politcal raproachment is almost out of the question. Like all wars of ideology, it is not as if the dispute is over some piece of land or control of some waterway. The hardliners want the entire middle east to look like Afghanistan did prior to 9/11 and the subsequent invasion, namely a 15th century theocracy. Because they only represent a small fraction of the people in the region they need to convert others. Since the idea is very unappealing to those who have any sort of what we might call a western life style. The only way of changing the status quo is to draw Israel and or the West into armed confrontation. If that fails they will continue to blow up beachfront properties in Egypt, or foment civil war in Lebanon or Iraq, all with the aim to make the general population so miserable that they can be swayed to join The Cause.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#118)
    by theologicus on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:07:38 AM EST
    Billmon has a long and very fine post today. Here are some excerpts. Failed States He who fights terrorists for any period of time is likely to become one himself. --Israeli historian Martin van Creveld,
The Transformation of War, 1991 ...the Israelis have more or less abandoned the pretense that they're fighting specific "terrorist" groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and are openly waging war on the Palestinian people (and now the Lebanese people) as a whole. ... ... I'm not passing moral judgments here. I've never been able to turn a blind eye to the war crimes of one side or the other - rationalizing the suicide bomb that blows a bus full of Israeli civilians to bloody bits while crying tears of outrage over the destruction of a power plant that provides clean water to tens of thousands of Palestinian mothers and infants, or vice versa. To me, the conflict has long since come to resemble a war between lunatics, and one doesn't pass moral judgments on the behavior of the insane, not even the criminally insane. But it is clear to me that the Israelis, through their own actions (plus some help from their clueless allies in the Cheney administration) have put themselves in trap they can't escape. They've reached a strategic dead end, one that doesn't even leave them enough maneuvering room to turn and go back. A return to the pre-Oslo status quo - full military reoccupation of the territories - is out of the question. The peace process (a pointless squirrel wheel, but one that at least kept the squirrels, both Palestinian and Israeli, busy going through their paces) is dead. The Palestinian Authority is shattered; Fatah's legitimacy and President Abbas's credibility flushed down the toilet. And Hamas - the only viable alternative - has been officially defined as Public Enemy Number One by the Israelis, the Americans and the Europeans. ... ... Is there a way out for the Israelis? None that I can see. Humpty Dumpty can't be put back together again. Fatah and Abbas can't be restored to their pre-election positions - not without looking like complete Israeli stooges. Hamas (or at least its moderate wing) can't be brought back in from the cold, not without a loss of Israeli face and credibility so enormous it would probably cause the Olmert government to fall and bring the Likud back to power. The Israelis can't afford to negotiate for the return of their captured soldiers and they can't afford to forsake them. They can't stay in Gaza and they can't leave Gaza. They can't invade Lebanon and they can't not invade Lebanon. In the past, no matter how bad things got in territories, Israeli governments always have had the option of backing off and leaving bad enough alone - relying on the Army or, post-Oslo, the PA to keep a lid on the situation. That was fine as long as the objective was to grow the settlements and quietly tighten Israel's control over the land and all its resources. But now that the goal is essentially a second partition, Israeli politicians are finding out the hard way that they no longer have the luxury of malign neglect. After six years of pretending they don't need a Palestinian negotiating partner, they've suddenly discovered, much to their horror, that they need one desperately - but have managed to eliminate all the possible candidates.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:22:07 AM EST
    et al - We might note that the attacks appear to have been triggered by a desire to use the longer range rockets. Not that terrorists are always trying to build and buy better weapons. Nope. They would never do that. No way. Iran is in this up to their eyebrows, and how we react will have much to do with how they react to demands to cease their nuclear programs. This also follows a couple of weak "I was wrong to be a cowboy" type statements by Bush. It is amazing how people continue to think we can do business with terrorists. Squeaky - The comment was about a tank destroying a car because it would be used as a car born. How that has anything to do with brown people killing white people or vice versa I haven't the vaguest idea. But I do understand your motive. After all, you told us:
    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.
    You wrote:
    if we start destroying money the terrorists will surely lose
    It would be a big help. Oh well, I now understand your support of the NYT and its attack on SWIFT and its war on the war on terror. PS - Hugs and hugs and enjoy the view.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#120)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:26:27 AM EST
    theologicus quoted:
    The Israelis can't afford to negotiate for the return of their captured soldiers and they can't afford to forsake them
    This is just not so. From the NYTimes: "Trying to explain his own impotence, Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, told an Egyptian newspaper that he had tried to negotiate a settlement between Hamas and Israel over the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit. He said he had worked out a deal -- but a third party pressed Hamas to back out.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#121)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:16:35 AM EST
    suo +ppj-The image of a tank moving out of its way to crush a car is an apt analogy as Al pointed out. The car was not a suicide bombers car, is was just a car, someone's personal property, a Palestinian's personal property run over by an Israeli tank. My comment pointed out the absurdity of destroying something, or someone as a preemptive act just because it could be used as a weapon. Obviously you are both in favor of preemptive strikes, racial profiling, and dispensing with due process and the 4th amendment. The acts of racists bullies were once rampant in America, and still quite alive in some parts. It was not uncommon to lynch a black person because he looked at a white mans sister. Preemptive lynching is now sublimated into a host of other preemptive acts. The fact that you condone, and see the benefit, in crushing someone's car just because cars are used in car bomb attacks is absurd. This sort of thinking has no end and must be condemned each and every time it rears its ugly head. My list of things to be destroyed seems like bubkis to you? Maybe if you are a white American, or Israeli and are devoid of empathy.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#122)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:19:43 AM EST
    et al - We might note that the attacks appear to have been triggered by a desire to use the longer range rockets.
    simple minded - the attacks might have been indeed to prod Israel into over reacting and let them get mired down in Lebanon yet again. The last 13 year occupation went so well.
    Not that terrorists are always trying to build and buy better weapons. Nope. They would never do that. No way.
    Of course they are going to, no one has said any different. The unilateral policies over the last year has help destroy what little hope the non-terrorists had, thus making the terrorist stronger. If its one thing the US and Israel know is how to generate more terrorist with their simple minded singular view of the world and ploicies based on brute force and oppression.
    Iran is in this up to their eyebrows, and how we react will have much to do with how they react to demands to cease their nuclear programs.
    Iran is not going to give up its right to enrichment for peaceful purposes. Now a policy of nuclear disarmement in the area by everyone might change their mind but anything short of that is not going to work. Lets look at this from their end. NKorea has nukes - nothing happens to them. Iraq doesnt have them they get invaded. If you are the leader of Iran what do you do given that you have every reason to believe that the goal of the US is to make Iran into a client state.
    It is amazing how people continue to think we can do business with terrorists.
    The real issue here is that PPJ and the neocons lump everyone in the country into terrorists and end up not dealing with anyone. Its hard be a hegemon when people just wont roll over and surrender their countries.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#123)
    by roger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:21:29 AM EST
    Stratfor has an excellent piece on this. Too bad that you need a subscription. The longer range are a major factor here. Israel is probably looking for a buffer zone, but they are unlikely to occupy all of Lebanon again. Iran is a player here. Probably to affect their position in Iraq (thanks a lot W!). With Saddam gone, they are free to pursue other interests in the region. Also, per Stratfor, Israel has called up the reserves. This will get a whole lot worse, before things calm down again

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:33:35 AM EST
    Middle East Crisis: Backgrounder Stratfor: July 13, 2006: Roger - If this is the Stratfor article you referred to, you can read it without a subscription by going to this google page and clicking on the first Stratfor link you find. This avoids Stratfor's subscription wall.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#125)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:34:13 AM EST
    Also, per Stratfor, Israel has called up the reserves. This will get a whole lot worse, before things calm down again
    How much worse is up to Bush and his approach to Iran. I'm worried that we are approaching the "final showdown" in the ME. The long term consequences could be horrific.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#126)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:05:32 AM EST
    Obviously you are both in favor of preemptive strikes, racial profiling, and dispensing with due process and the 4th amendment.
    How you got here from a story of a guy in a tank destroying a vehicle that belonged to his enemy in a foreign armed conflict, I have no idea.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:36:16 AM EST
    Why do I suspect that the same persons who excuse dystroying a car because it could be used as a car bomb, are the same ones who likely would look the other way when it came to killing any number of non-combatants (what a nation that's "strong on defense" does), because they could be terrorists?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#128)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:40:49 AM EST
    a tank destroying a vehicle that belonged to his enemy
    so the whole civilian population is 'the enemy!?'

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#129)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    I seem to remember a participant declaiming a few days ago on the value of "inappropriate responces" (known in some circles as injustice and tyranny). All the other ones follow from the first one.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#130)
    by Slado on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:56:33 AM EST
    Sailor, Squeeky et all.. so the whole civilian population is 'the enemy!? In some cases yes. If a state or country declares war then you are at war with the state and its citizens. This is why Truman wasn't sent to the Hauge for dropping the bomb on Japan, fire bombing Germany and Tokyo etc... Palestianians and Lebanese have not declared war on Isreal but they have not done what they can to keep terrorists from operating within their boarders. Just like the Taliban sheltered AQ these countries have looked the other way while terrorists have waged war on Isreal. A war they freely declare at every possible chance. What is Isreal to do? Just because the terrorists hide amongst civilians they are not legitimate military targets? Nope. Doesn't work that way. If Lebonese and Palestinians want to live in peace with Isreal they need to remove or disband the terrorist orginizations that hide amongst them. If they don't want to do that then they should declare war on Isreal and just get on with it. They can't have it both ways. Isreal is not the instagator in this. They want to build a wall and get back to being a democracy. The thing that keeps this conflict going is the Palestinians unrealistic belief that they deserve territory back, right of return etc... and their inability or unwillingness to control Hezzbollah and Hamas. Peace can't happen while one of the parties is hiding behind terrorist orginizations. Whats so hard to understand about that?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#131)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:04:24 AM EST
    suo-sorry to see that your ability to generalize on the Al's example has failed. Obviously you believe that the WOT gives the government powers that trump the constitution. So no problem for you, right?. Preemptive attacks are fine and dandy because the government can be trusted not to abuse the power you would grant them. Have you ever studied history? Or is it that you are you drinking kool-aid by the gallon.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#132)
    by theologicus on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:05:46 AM EST
    Excerpt from a Letter by Ray Close Former CIA analyst in the Near East division Dear Friends: Not surprisingly, some (not all) of my Israeli and American Jewish friends have objected strenuously to my characterization of Israel's response to recent Hamas and Hizballah actions as disproportionate and counterproductive. Let me make it crystal clear where I stand. One of the definitions of madness is the repetition countless times of the same action, always expecting a different result. For more than half a century, the Israelis have been applying the tactic of massively disproportionate retaliation to every provocative act of resistance attempted by the Palestinians, expecting every time that this would bring peace and security to all the people of the Holy Land. Every single time they have done this this, it has backfired. Every single time. ... I don't care whether you consider the Palestinians to be terrorists or common criminals or freedom fighters or national resistance heroes. If you are an intelligent and sensitive human being, you learn from your past mistakes and you make a rational decision to try something different. The Israeli leadership for all these many generations has been incapable of performing that really rather simple mental and moral exercise. Nor does it matter who "started it". If you take land and houses and personal freedoms away from individuals, and if you systematically deprive a whole people of dignity and national identity, they do not forgive or forget their deep sense of injury, deprivation and injustice. Giving them a thorough beating at regular intervals, or endlessly frustrating their hopes of enjoying the benefits of political self-determination and economic prosperity, does not diminish their personal bitterness of alleviate their collective hunger for revenge and restitution. ... There's more and it's all worth reading.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#133)
    by dab on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:06:04 AM EST
    "Civilians": notice that Lebanon has reported only "civilian" deaths. Any idea why? Because they define Hizbollah members (the guys who have fired more than 200 missiles into Israel over the past two days) as "civilians". I am amazed that people here think Israel intentionally targets civilians. Israel has the military power to wipe out large swaths of civilian populations, but they do not. They hit offices in the middle of the night when they know no one will be there. They drop leaflets warning people to evacuate and remove themselves from the areas where Hizbollah congregates, to avoid kiling civilians, even though that can undermine their military mission and put the lives of their own soldiers at greater risk. Why do they sometimes hit civilians? Because in traditional combat, armies fight armies. But the way terrorists (or whatever politically correct term you want to give them) work is the opposite. They generally (though not always) attack civilians during "non-war" time and then retreat to the protection of spending all of their time among densely populated civilian centers so they can exploit their enemies' unwillingness to attack civilian areas. Israel goes out of its way to try to clear civilians while still effectively reaching "militants" "terrorists" or whatever you call them, who use civilians as human shields. When Israel causes civilian casualties, it usually apologizes and expresses regret; it is always unintended. "Kidnapping": there was no war going on with Hizbollah at the time of the incursion and capture of Israeli soldiers. They were not attacking Lebanon when they were captured. Neither the Gaza offensive nor the Lebanon one was solely motivated by the kidnappings. Israel has had missiles fired at its civilian population daily (nightly) since it withdrew from Gaza; they have asked the Gaza government to deter such attacks and have been rebuffed. They therefore want to end the attacks themselves. Lebanon is similar. Hizbollah has a long history of firing missiles into Israeli population centers. Israel occupied a buffer zone in southern Lebanon until 6 years ago to prevent these attacks. Israel withdrew, Hizbollah came back, and the Lebanese government, like the government in Gaza, refuses to intervene to stop the attacks. What should Israel do? abandon all areas within missile range of Lebanon or Gaza? (It is a tiny country now, with retreating borders it would wind up eventually non-existent -- precisely what Hizbollah, Hamas, and many others want). Let its citizens be killed?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:08:46 AM EST
    Slado - Its a little indulgent and inexact to describe as democratic a nation that has institutionalized apartheid policies based on religion and race, as if it were some beacon of enlightened thinking. Any way you slice it, it's still Orwell's "some pigs are more equal than others."

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:12:46 AM EST
    Slado-So the white supremacists hiding out in southern Wisconsin or Idaho justify nuking the whole state? Or is it that the white's rights terrorists are just honest good ole boys victimized by too many coloreds, liberals and immigrants ruining their visual landscape?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#136)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:15:58 AM EST
    You know what Sailor, good point, I'll give you that, this isn't quite as clear-cut as I thought at first. Not having seen the footage Al described, my mental image was of a city where armed, non-uniformed guys are shooting at you from buildings, drive-bys from personal cars, etc., urban warfare-type stuff. Reading his comment again, I accept that this probably wasn't the case. So in this case I think more probably the tank driver saw the car, and, having been involved in the conflict for years - seeing friends, family, etc. die, treaties and negotiations fail, etc., - thought "F'em. I'm gonna crush this car." Back to my original point, I don't understand how you get from that to
    So, that is why it is OK to kill all brown people, because some may want to cause harm to whites?
    Sounds like bupkis to me.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#137)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:21:02 AM EST
    Obviously you believe that the WOT gives the government powers that trump the constitution. So no problem for you, right?.
    Squeaky, how you got here from a story of a guy in a tank destroying what was most likely a private citizen's vehicle in a foreign armed conflict, I have no idea.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#138)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:24:42 AM EST
    suo-By justifying ppj's logic Palestinians should be killed because some have killed. Once ESP, or anger as you put it, justifies preemtive acts, where does the line get drawn? No, you say, preemptive killing would never happen, it is over the line. Lynchings were very popular here at one time, and I do not think we have advanced very much since then.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#139)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:30:47 AM EST
    I think you're reaching Squeaky, but at least now I understand how you got there.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:37:20 AM EST
    suo-Sorry for not being clearer from the start. I will work on my writing. It is not the easiest art, and certainly not one of my talents.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#141)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:43:49 AM EST
    Mine either.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#142)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:12:55 PM EST
    SUO, thanks for seeing and admitting the distinction. It's one of the reasons I read your posts. You usually have a different POV than I do but you can modify it given new info ... and I hope I do the same. BTW, I didn't make the post "So, that is why it is OK to kill all brown people"

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#143)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:21:09 PM EST
    et al - We might note that the attacks appear to have been triggered by a desire to use the longer range rockets.
    ppj is projecting again, maybe viagra would help. Here's the reason:
    Israel had already imposed an air and sea blockade on its northern neighbor, shut the only international airport by bombing its runways and damaged the main Beirut-Damascus highway.
    Every major leader in world, except bush, has condemned Israel's actions.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#144)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:34:34 PM EST
    Almost every major leader in the world has at one time shown some demonstrable ability to think and speak complete, articulate, sentences also. This is what we get in the age of celebrity spokesperson (thought and eloquence are "elitist") as leader.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#145)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:41:37 PM EST
    If a state or country declares war then you are at war with the state and its citizens. This is why Truman wasn't sent to the Hauge for dropping the bomb on Japan, fire bombing Germany and Tokyo etc...
    1) No state or country declaration of war, so your whole premise is wrong. 2) What you refer to as 'The Hague', which is actually the International Criminal Court was established in 1998. Truman was dead, kinda hard to prosecute dead folks. 3) Truman had nothing to do with Dresden. 4) The GenCons, (especially the 1949 (after WWII)), prohibit targeting civilians, or killing members of the civilian pop when you can't find the folks responsible.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#146)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:44:30 PM EST
    Sailor & Jondee - Bashing bush isn't fair. He can't help it. :-/

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#147)
    by Andreas on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 03:27:50 AM EST
    On July 13, 2006, Talkleft states:
    I support Israel in this.
    On July 14, 2006, Talkleft writes:
    As I said yesterday, the Israel/middle east conflict is far outside my field and I'm learning as I go along.
    In light of the second statement the first statement is politically irresponsible.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#148)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 07:32:53 AM EST
    Andreas- your logic would dictate that one cannot support anything that is outside their field. Would you have it be a requirement that one be a practicing expert in anything that they choose to support?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#149)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 07:23:21 PM EST
    BigTex, Not only was Arafat not "getting all that he wanted," but neither were the Palestinian people during the Barak-PA negotiations at Camp David. That myth was just the usual propaganda put forth by the mainstream media. I believe Jeff Halper of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions had a map at their web site showing how the 90+ percent of the West Bank that was being "offered" to the Palestinians in reality comprised disconnected little bantustans that in no sense would add up to a viable state. Obviously one doesn't reject a deal when they (or their people) are about to get "all that they wanted" in your words. That's not logical. And it's the Israelis that can do what they want and not fear repercussions. They can bulldoze all the Palestinian homes and businesses they want, shoot stone-throwing boys that look to be 12 or older (per policy of the IDF), uproot thousands of hundred-year-old olive trees, confiscate land, etc., without any consequences. At the most the US will say "it's not helpful" and then send billions more annually so Israel can continue it's illegal occupation per the Fourth Geneva Convention. And Israel targets civilians all the time. They target civilians every time the IDF shoots a kid in the head who is protesting with rocks the brutal occupation of his people. But I can assure you when Israeli settlers throw rocks and smash Palestinian cars and storefronts and try to run over Palestinian farmers with their bulldozers there are no Israeli soldiers available to shoot them in the head. And any Palestinian who did so would be called a terrorist. Israel has one standard for itself and another for the Arabs they occupy. As far as the wall Israel built for security reasons, I know that if I wanted peace with my neighbor I would build a wall on the property line between us, not on her property and literally through her house, destroying it. That is what Israel has done, and that is not conducive to peace or a peacemaking gesture by any stretch of the imagination. And I am sure that the civilians in Gaza and Lebanon feel sufficient fear, as would you if you had bombs being rained down upon you. So you don't need to worry about Israel's brutality creating enough terror in the lives of these people.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#150)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 07:55:20 PM EST
    It's not like one side is good and the other is evil. Both sides have been reckless and irresponsible, and seem to go out of their way to incite the other. Anyone who simply blames one side without acknowledging that both sides are to blame loses credibility in my eyes. I'm Jewish, but have no problem recognizing that taking Palestinian land to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza was incredibly stupid on Israel's part. That's the kind of thing that happens when religious fundamentalists become too powerful in a government. Any action that an objective third-party can easily see is immoral becomes justified because it has God's sanction. But let's assume Israel totally pulls out of the West Bank and Gaza. Even the Golan Heights. How many people think that would be the end of the violence? Would the Arabs then be willing to leave Israel alone? I seriously doubt it. No matter how accomodating Israel tries to be, there are going to be some Arabs and Muslims who won't let up until Israel is gone. It takes no effort to point accusatory fingers, nor does it do much good. I'm always on the looking for good, realistic suggestions about how Israel and its neighbors can live in peace, but these are pretty rare. (Nuking Iran and Syria, or all Jews moving to Alaska, are not good suggestions.) Can't anyone make the extra effort to suggest ways these two sides can get along in peace? Or is it hopeless?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#151)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:39:55 AM EST
    Granola, Did it ever occur to you that if the Israelis followed international law (the Fourth Geneva Convention) and UN Security Council Resolution 242 (passed after the '67 war and Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem), and thus ended their illegal occupation of Palestinian land and all its concomitant human rights abuses and illegal activities (bulldozing of homes and land confiscation), that the Palestinians would stop the fight against the illegal occupation of their land, the confiscation of their land and the bulldozing of their homes, etc.,? It's kind of like if you steal a kid's bike and he fights to get it back. You can call him a terrorist and the intransigent one all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you still stole his bike and he has every right to try to get it back. I know many Israelis, Jews and Christian Zionists prefer not to talk about it, as it's the big elephant in the room that they would rather pretend doesn't exist and a blight one their collective conscience (assuming some of them do have a conscience) but it is a continued immorality that the Israeli government has perpetrated on the Palestinian people through every single government including the so-called liberal governments of Barak, Rabin, etc. As far as I am concerned Israel is a done deal. It was "born" at the expense of the Palestinian people and created immense injustice and human suffering in order to make a homeland for a people thousands of miles away, but all the same, it is a done deal, and to advocate the destruction of Israel would only create more suffering all around. But the occupation is a different story, and Israel has continued its blatant disregard for and contravention of international law while the world community looks the other way and American not only looks the other way but actually supports that illegal occupation not only with billions of dollars sent to Israel every year but also with every other ignorant word of support for the Israeli government's illegal and brutal occupation that comes out of the human-rights deficient mouth and mind of George Bush and his administration. But I would expect no less from a Zionist Christian. Social justice isn't their strong point, having the ever so selective social consciences that they do. And I wouldn't be quoting Golda Meir if I were you. I noticed that the beginning of this thread on the bombings in Beirut was prefaced by admonishing posters not to write anything anti-Semitic. I'm wondering why there wasn't also an admonition to those thinking of writing anything that is obvious anti-Arab bigotry. I guess that doesn't get people as riled up-not many people care whether one is anti-Arab or not; for instance, if one criticizes the policies of the Israeli government that is enough to get one labeled anti-Semitic (or a self-hating Jew if one is Jewish), and since absolutely no one wants to be called that the slanderous/libelous accusation is enough to shut one up/quash free speech quite effectively, and of course that is the very point! But if one (a Jew or non-Jews) were to criticize the policies of an Arab government (rightly or wrongly so), no Arab would try to slander that person by labeling them an Arab-hater/bigot, and even if they did so no one would care!! Back to Golda--considering she said there was no such thing as a Palestinian (and so how could they return to their land when they didn't exist in the first place), there is no surprise in her saying that Arabs' love for their children is less than their hatred for Jews.

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#152)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:09:00 AM EST
    But if one (a Jew or non-Jews) were to criticize the policies of an Arab government (rightly or wrongly so), no Arab would try to slander that person by labeling them an Arab-hater/bigot, and even if they did so no one would care!!
    See Theo Van Gogh. What do you propose as a solution? Hamas has openly advocated the destruction of Israel. How can they be negotiated with?

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#153)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:48:05 AM EST
    Slado, The argument might be "long over" with regards to Israel's creation in '48 (and the concomitant creation of close to a million Palestinian refugees), but the Israeli occupation starting with the '67 war of the West Bank, east Jerusalem and later the Golan, and is not over with. Maybe that is why Israel is under "constant attack" from its neighbors. And Israel did invade territory that belonged to Jordan, Egypt and Syria in those wars. Not only did Israel ignore UN resolutions regarding the return of the '47-'49 Palestinian refugees to their homes inside what has now become the state of Israel, but Israel created a whole new set of refugees during the '67 and '73 wars, some of whom were forced from their homes and some of whom remain under Israeli occupation to this very day. That is not equivalent to "defending one's borders." The Israeli occupation is ILLEGAL. It is against international law for an occupier to confiscate land during war, to move one's own citizens onto that land, to destroy the homes/infrastructure of those you occupy, to confiscate their natural resources (water, etc.). An occupier's presence immediately after wartime is for the purpose of keeping the peace, not to bulldoze the homes of the indigenous people (some of whom were refugees from within the Green Line in the '48 war) and to move people of the same ethnicity/religous group from all over the world onto that land. I am sorry, but Jews in Brooklyn and Palm Beach do not have a right to move to the West Bank, harrass Palestinians, knock their fruit trees over with bulldozers and set up house on their land while the Israeli soldiers stand by to make sure no Palestinian "gets out of line" and to beat or shoot him if he does. One has to have a really warped sense of what is just to see this as just. And maybe another question you should ask yourself is what would any "reasonable country"/people do if they suffered on a daily basis the destruction of their crops/citrus trees, the free movement to work, school, hospital, etc., the confiscation of their water supply so that Jewish settlers can fill their swimming pools, the harrassment at checkpoints, waiting in the sun for hours, making going to and from work a job in itself, control over their borders, the import and export of their goods (produce, meat and flowers which sometimes rot at checkpoints for days because Israel purposely doesn't allow the ingress and egress of goods), the systematic and racist denial of building permits for which Palestinians pay hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars for, only to be denied time and again, home demolitions (and please save me the propaganda/lies about these houses being the homes of terrorists). The vast majority are not the homes of militants or even suspected militants but simply homes that sit on land that Israel wants to confiscate/annex. Was the house that International Solidarity Movement member Rachel Corrie stood in front of trying to protect the house of a terrorist that Israel slated for demolition? No, it was not, it was the house of a Palestinian doctor, and Rachel Corrie paid with her life for trying to stop this ongoing injustice. She got run over and then backed up over for good measure so she could speak about this injustice no more. The ultimate Israeli fascism one could say. And England and France would not be engaged in the equivalent of what Israel is engaged in in the occupied territories, so they wouldn't have to be "patient" like the Israelis (what a farce!). I don't know about Russia, and George Bush I think would do just about anything to facilitate the second coming of Christ, illegal occupation or not. And the "unreasonable foe" that "wants to see you destroyed" is Israel. More Palestinians have died in this conflict than Israelis. It is Palesintian homes and land that have been demolished and confiscated, Palestinians who have been uprooted and deported, Palestinians that are in refugee camps, Palestinians who have had their freedom of movement restricted, Palestinians who have had Israeli soldiers peeing in their water wells, beating and arrogantly humiliating their sons and brothers at checkpoints and preventing their mothers from getting to hospital on time with babies being born, sometimes dead, on the side of the road, Palestinians who have had their education disrupted, Palestinian children who have had their schools slated for demolition, Palestinians who have been confined to their homes like animals in a cage, Palestinians who have had their water resources confiscated, Palestinians who have watched their produce, flowers and other goods to be exported rotting at checkpoints, their livelihoods destroyed--all courtesy of Israel. I don't believe that many things in life are black or white, including this conflict, but you are certainly right in that there is no moral equivalency

    Re: Israel Bombs Beirut Airport (none / 0) (#154)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:08:26 PM EST
    Aubrey Mann wrote: More to the point, what action would be, proportionate, would stop the pali attacks on Israel, get the soldiers back, and not depend on negotiating with people who were elected on a plank of destroying Israel? Because "sitting down" with them would presume they'd deal. Which, of course, they won't. The obvious answer (the one which the Palestinians and other Arabs bring up constantly and the Israelis prefer not to talk about, and this administration prefers not to talk about), is for Israel to vacate all the illegal settlements they have built in the West Bank, east Jerusalem (which becomes larger in land size by the hour as Israel annexes West Bank settlements to become "greater Jerusalem"), the Golan, and Chebaa Farms, put all the "displaced Jews" from Brooklyn and Boca Raton onto trucks and truck them back inside the Green Line or return them to whence they came from. The answer is for Israel to stop construction of its "security wall" that has been literally built through the houses of Palestinians, destroying their homes and/or cutting them off from the rest of their land/businesses, etc. The Israelis don't need to "sit down and deal" with the Palestinians for any more bogus and worthless negotiations that the Israelis have never intended to add up to anything tangible. They talk out of one side of their mouths about wanting peace while they keep those settlements springing up and them bulldozers a-rolling over Palestinian homes and orchards, creating facts on the ground faster than they can dissemble out of the other sides of their mouths about being the only ones who want peace against those "intransigent Arabs." They need to adhere to international law, follow Security Council Resolution 242 and the Fourth Geneva Convention and stop building illegal settlements NOW, and the Unites States needs to stop giving Israel the financial and moral support in which to continue breaking international law. Of course that won't happen during this administration, full as it is of Arab-and Muslim-hating socially conservative war-mongering bigots and a president with so little regard for (all) human life. Israel has known what it needs to do to end this conflict since the founding of the state of Israel. It's not a mystery, it's just a hard fact of life that the Israelis have no intention of acknowleging or employing. If they did they wouldn't have continued to build illegal settlements throughout every Israeli government including the so-called liberal Labour governments. One cannot achieve peace with a people when one is incessantly and daily committing human rights abuses in myriad ways against those people.