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Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Charges

The documents keep coming. You can read them here. The documents recently obtained by the ACLU show detainee claims of Koran desecration by Guards at Guantanamo in 2002. Many of the documents are interviews with prisoners and show that officials were aware of the claims.

Via Press Release today, the ACLU reports:

New documents released by the FBI include previously undisclosed interviews in which prisoners at Guantánamo complain that guards have mistreated the Koran, the American Civil Liberties Union said today. In one 2002 summary, an FBI interrogator notes a prisoner’s allegation that guards flushed a Koran down the toilet.

The disclosure comes on the heels of controversy over a Newsweek report saying that government investigators had corroborated an almost identical incident. Newsweek ultimately retracted its story because a confidential government source could not be confirmed.

According to the FBI documents, a detainee interviewed in August 2002 said that guards had flushed the Koran in the toilet. Others reported the Koran being kicked, withheld as punishment, and thrown on the floor, and said they were mocked during prayers.

In the documents released today, one detainee informs his FBI interviewers that using the Koran “as a reprisal or as an incentive for cooperation has failed,” and that the only result would be “the damage caused to the reputation of the United States once what had occurred was released to the world.” While another detainee acknowledged that there might be “a legitimate need to search the book for hidden items,” he objected to the abusive manner in which the searches were conducted.

“The United States government’s own documents show that it has known of numerous allegations of Koran desecration for a significant period of time,” said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU’s Immigrants’ Rights Project. “Its failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorized by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place.”

In addition to the charges of Koran abuse, the new documents include allegations of beatings, hunger strikes, planned suicide attempts and more.

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  • Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#1)
    by The Heretik on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:18 PM EST
    These numerous detainee accounts will be dismissed for their source, not for their truth. I find it remarkable that the FBI will likely be smeared for its dutiful part in this. This administration has proven that the loyalty it asks of all others is never returned in kind. People need to be reminded of the realities behind the manipulated and manufactured headlines. A free society with so little respect for other traditions and lives abroad cannot help but forge new chains of oppression at home.

    deleted This commenter has previously been limited to four comments a day. Limit still stands.

    You must have read Blagh's post on the issue, BB... But Blagh hopes you're as consistent if it's a Bible being flushed, or of fundamental Christians being called "idiotic simpletons..."

    BB, after seeing your other posts, I seriously doubt you would say
    "Big f-ing deal! First of all...try flushing a book (any book) down the toilet...it aint posible. Secondly, who gives a rat's ass?"
    If it was, say, the Christian Bible being flushed, and Dobson, Falwell, Terry, and the rest of the Nationalist Fundamentalism crowd decrying it. "Who cares"? Anyone who believes it's ignorant to try to fight a fire by pouring gasoline on it.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#5)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:19 PM EST
    et al - This is just another phony issue that the Left has hung its hat on. I say again, if treatment of the Koran must be just so-so, why are copies allowed to be owned by infidels and in public libtraries. Someone needs to tell those claiming to be "upset" they should get a life and start worrying over real issues. BTW - None of the 15 to 17 people supposedly killed in the riots names have been released. Think we have some BS going on? I know we do.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:19 PM EST
    Al writes - "It matters that some irate Muslims are going to seek bloody revenge. Why provoke them?" Al baby, dude, good guy.. It doesn't matter. They are already provoked. I mean you do remember 9/11? I mean you do remember OBL's various threats? Let me refresh your memory. Read Arnett's interview with OBL. You know, in Osama's own words. An extract: "REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ? BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world. They don't want to play kissy kissy. There are no areas of common ground. This, simply put, is war. So, to heck with'em.

    treatment of the Koran must be just so-so
    I don't believe anyone here is suggesting that treatment of a Koran must be strictly "by the book", and for myself, I'm not personally offended if someone wants to tap-dance on a Bible, Torah, or Koran. That said, I find myself to take seriously someone who can't see (or won't see) the distinction a believer would see between a non-believer owning a holy book, and dumping a holy book in a toilet. As I said, someone like that probably fights fires by pouring gasoline on them.

    Oops. Should read "I find myself unable to take seriously...."

    Blagh agrees with PPJ on this one only because it's retarded to blame people for what a few nuts do... Anyways, the "Koran Riots" have been widely debunked, by General Myers and President Karzai, both of whom have no motive to lie about it... And even if they haven't, WHO CARES? Books are paper, worshipping THEM is idolatry...1st Commandment...

    PPJ can flush the Bible, the Qu'ran, Jerry Falwell's holy toenails or anything else he wants to down his toilet as long it doesn't cause a drainage problem for others on the same sewer system. What do I care? But when Private PPJ of the US Army abuses, humiliates, and tortures prisoners -such as showing wanton disrespect and contempt for the objects of religious observance - I very much care. First, those are my tax dollars he's doing it with and I say no, uh uh, I didn't pay for my Army to act as atrociously as the Taliban or the Vietcong. Second, Private PPJ is making me less safe by stirring up a hornet's nest with his immature, ignorant acts. Third, only craven cowards or psychopaths torture and humiliate their captives.The American armed forces should never tolerate cowards. By engaging in torture and abuse, Private PPJ befouls his uniform and his country.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#10)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    This is what I really love about the left - no matter how loopy a charge is, if the allegation is "serious", then it must be investigated. The best analogy to this is the old standby: "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

    This is just another phony issue
    Hmmm. PPJ, it seems the FBI disagrees with your assesment that this story is "phony". I'm sure you can provide your link that disproves the FBI. We're waiting...

    James, as I asked PPJ, please provide a link that discredits the FBI. The only "loopy" thing I see in this thread are the trolls.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#13)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Tristero brings up a point which I have mentioned before but PPJ and his ilk refuse to acknowledge is that the Koran abuse is not being done in isolation. It is part of a program of torture and humiliation. However, it serves as a perfect image to the Muslims of their view of how Americans treat them, i.e. as inferior beings who are to be ridiculed, beaten, killed and dehumanized. PPJ tries to isolate the Koran abuse from all the other abuse inflicted on these people in order to devalue the insults heaped on the Muslims and to paint the Muslims as irrational. Taking an event out of context and then trivializing it, is one of the tactics used by the right. If they can keep you focused on a small tree that has been cut down they they hope you wont see the complete deforestation.

    Upon rereading, I notice that the FBI report is only claiming that this is what a detainee reported. Knowing your opinions of detainee statements, I apologize.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#15)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    triestro - If these devout Moslems had followed the peaceful portion of the Koran then they wouldn't be locked up to start with. If they they don't like it, to heck with'em. If the Moslem world doesn't like it, let them prevent these radicals from attacking us. That way they won't be in prison.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#16)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Adept - I didn't say the story was phony. I said the issue was phony. And it is.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    triestro - If these devout Moslems had followed the peaceful portion of the Koran then they wouldn't be locked up to start with.
    False, as you know. Many were picked up pnly to be released much later with no charges. Many in Iraq were picked up in sweeps. We've been through this many times but your racist attitudes always surface at some time.
    If the Moslem world doesn't like it, let them prevent these radicals from attacking us.
    Lets see, 20 nutcases out of 1.2 billion Muslims attack us and we are therefore allowed to invaded a country kill upwards of 100k of people, torture, rape and its there fault. You really are pathetic. What a waste of carbon atoms.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Yes and we should have prevented our president from attacking them also. It seems to me that there was only two Iraqis that we needed to be wary of. One was a nutcase dictator and the other was a fraudulent expatriot. Any others that have died since 3.21.03 were murdered by Monkey Boy. BB, I am insulted that you think we actually believe that a book can be flushed down the toilet. You really need to have a bit more respect for others here as educated individuals. Also maybe this will improve your debating skills.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#19)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Apart from the fact that it is very insulting to a person of religious faith to have their sacred text desecrated, and apart from the fact that after having seen the photos of Abu Ghraib I imagine it's very likely that this actually happened..., it doesn't matter what PPJ or the other Bush groupies think about the Koran. It matters that some irate Muslims are going to seek bloody revenge. Why provoke them? That's just idiotic. Here's PPJ being defiant: "If they don't like it, to heck with them". You mean to heck with whoever dies because "they don't like it"? (And what is this "heck" business, anyway? You don't care about people dying, but you don't want to be impolite?)

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Andre Saronno you have a message..... A bunch of radical Islamists have thier shorts in a bunch about a rumour and the Left is quick to talk about the abuse of religious symbols and how terrible it is. Serranno puts a crucifix in self described urine that is a first amendment issue and highly regarded by the gatekeepers of the high arts. The physical impossibilities aside this is all nonsense. Quite frankly if these guys are that easily distressed then prehaps they are a bit..ah..excitable? Honestly, If it is OK to trash a crucifix then it is OK to trash a Qu'ran or a Bhudda or the US flag or for absurdity the Easter Island mono-men. First Amendment and all that stuff, ya'know.

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone -regardless of their religion - who perpetrates a major felony or commits an act of terrorism/aggression deserves serious punishment. I'm a strong believer in strong penalties for criminal activities, be they committed by Eric Rudolph, Jonathan Pollard, or Mullah Omar. You do the crime you do the time. No excuses, no exceptions. But that gives no one - that means no one, anywhere - the right to torture, abuse, debase, or humiliate persons in custody. No excuses, no exceptions. As for innocent people who are deliberately rounded up in a war zone despite knowledge of their innocence, that is obviously abuse. Regarding genuine suspicions of criminal/terrorist activitiy by a person in a war zone, obviously the military should err on the side of caution and arrest/imprison rather than take a chance. And just as obviously, as the status of the prisoner gets clarified, the military is obligated to respond in a just manner, by immediately releasing the suspect when cleared or by holding a suspect and starting the appropriate legal proceedings when not. That is the way civilized countries operate. You don't like behaving in a moral fashion and think doing so is girly? Move to North Korea. They need more people like you. The United States does not. Jimcee, If PFC Jimcee, MP at Gitmo, urinates on a crucifix, I fully expect you to be court-martialed and dishonarably discharged. In fact, I think you should go to jail and share a cell with Eric Rudolph.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#23)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    SD writes - "Lets see, 20 nutcases out of 1.2 billion Muslims attack us and we are therefore allowed to invaded a country kill upwards of 100k of people, torture, rape and its there fault." Hmmmmm. Now let me see. If there are 1.2 billion moderate Moslems, and only 20 nutcases..... Then tell me why the 1.2 billion can't take care of the 20? Dumb SD, very dumb. Adept - And since the FBI notes only what the terrorist claims, the story is probably false.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#24)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    PPJ, the US has now a well-earned reputation of thuggery and brutishness, particularly in the Muslim world. Every incident like the Koran flushing or daubing naked prisoners in Abu Ghraib with feces is a fantastic recruiting tool for any organization that attacks Americans and their allies anywhere in the world. Furthermore, nobody in their right mind is going to ally themselves with the American thugs. The "coalition of the willing" has become singularly unwilling. You just don't get it, do you? But then it's all far removed from your safe, cushy environment. You can turn up your nose at those Muslim fanatics who go nuts when their holy text is flushed. They will never come to saw your head off with a blunt knife. Your children won't get blown up by a suicide bomber.

    So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.
    Oh I got it...so let's invade a muslim country for no reason other than it was part of the plan written into a PNAC document. Yeah, that will help pacify the muslim zealots, allright.
    Then tell me why the 1.2 billion can't take care of the 20?
    I guess it's the same reason the billion or so Judeo-Christians can't take care of the few dozen Neo-cons?

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#26)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Try reading this: http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010553.php And before you shout "right wing blog", recall that your allegation comes from a "left wing blog" The bottom line - the detainees there are not credible. They are making allegations knowing that the left and the media are only too willing to believe the best of the enemy, and the worst of the US military

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#27)
    by Al on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Robertson, if people are "only too willing to believe the worst of the US military" it's because of Abu Ghraib. Remember also Bush and Blair gave the world assurances that Saddam had an arsenal of biological and chemical weapons, and was well on his way to obtaining nuclear weapons and long-range missiles to deliver them with. It was all completely false. You're right, nobody believes these people now. It's their own fault.

    The problem is far worse than has been publicly revealed. There are pictures and videos and reports that only a few senators have seen. But here's the point: What is already a matter of public record is so awful, so egregiously abusive and immoral and ubiquitous, that based on that alone, no reasonable person can deny that higher ups in the US military and government have ordered the widespread torture and abuse of prisoners as a deliberate tactic in the "war on terror". This isn't about right versus left. This is about reality. Because it's not just Abu Ghraib, of course. It's Abu Ghraib plus the torture memos plus Gitmo plus Afghanistan plus the private plane "rendering" suspects abroad plus a president who lies through his teeth plus a president who boasts about extra legal murder in speeches (remember, "they are no longer a threat?").

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#29)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:20 PM EST
    Ernesto - The OBL interview was in March 1997 betweeen OBL and Peter Arnett of (then) CNN. At that time the supposed problem was US forces in SA. So noe Arnett's question. If the US leaves...will everything be okay?" Answer....No, not unless the US lets Moslems...(that includes the terrorist groups...) do what they want to do in the whole world. Now, I know you think members of our government are bad. As you stated, "The Neocons are every bit as bad as our former CIA asset Bin Laden." But even carrying that baggage you must be capable of understanding the direct declarative statements of this stone cold killer and hater of America. Al - The fight is already on. You can snuggle up to these terrorists, they hate us. And they have recruited enough to cause us lots of problems. So what should be do, tremble in fear that we offend the rest? Nonsense. They will always find reasons to hate us. Tell us. What did we do to them to deserve the 9/11 attack, the USS Cole, etc.?

    To accept the torture, abuse and humiliation of prisoners as reasonable is to align yourself morally with al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein. Only someone who admires Saddam's brutality or bin Laden's sense of "justice" would describe imprisonment without torture as coddling.

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:21 PM EST
    If there were no photographic evidence from Abu Gharib, imagine the preposterous self-righteous arguments that would be espoused from the right on the subject for months on end. Of course the q'uran was flushed and "desecrated". Rumsfeld to his credit, immediately banned all cameras from any military prison facility immediately after the press reported the stories. If one will imprison someone without due process, it is a safe and fair presumption that they will bend and fracture as many of the prisoners rights as they damn well please.

    Answer....No, not unless the US lets Moslems...(that includes the terrorist groups...) do what they want to do in the whole world.
    So how is this any different from the neocon PNAC document? You know that they aren't happy with the Mid-east, Jim. They want the whole damn world, including an eventual showdown with China. Get ready to start learning your "tactical nuclear strike" talking points, PPJ, because that's where we are heading on this journey!

    This whole subject, guys, is why Blagh wants to puke when he hears people shouting "God Bless America" over everything... You know what, Blagh ain't American, and neither is 95% of the world, and Jim and all these neocons who feel that it is America's destiny to control and rape the world are the ones who're going to blow the whole kaboodle sky-high... National pride is one thing...Imperialism is another...and any fool who thinks God has a team jersey on representing ANY country needs to have their head examined... It is NOT any country's f#*king destiny to rule the world...that's neocon sociopathic babble... Imagine if the govt of a great and historic people as the American Republic put their f*#king energy into making THE WORLD (and in turn, America) a better place instead of a Welcome mat for Washington? Can you imagine what such resources, talent and vision could produce? Sadly, with the neocons around, we'll never know...

    One thing Blagh really doesn't get, folks, is the whole "you can't flush a Koran down a toilet" thread...we've got freakin' plumbers coming out of Saddam's spider-hole to tell us how the laws of physics make this feat impossible...We've got semantics freaks saying, "No, they didn't say pages- they said the whole Koran, so aha! we're right..." Are you people retarded? Let's say a detainee is sitting in his cell while his jailors administer some of "Rummy's Remedy," and they decide to adjourn to the toilet...say they drag the bugger, with the aid of many kicks, to the toilet and toss in the Koran...then they flush it...now they drag the dude back to his cell and toss him in like the week's trash... Let's take any number of a million scenarios where a detainee sees a Koran being chucked into the sh#tter and hears the toilet being flushed... What do you think buddy's going to say when he comes out: "Dude, they chucked it in and flushed the john, but I didn't actually see it go down...maybe they fished it out after, dude..." or do you think he's going to say, "Allahu Akbar, those dirty bastards flushed my Koran down the loo..."? Blagh takes the second scenario and, you know, it doesn't matter a damn if a Koran can actually go down a toilet...

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:22 PM EST
    blagh, i'm not sure of your point, but the 'toilet' in the original cases was a slops bucket. They were in chainlink cages w/o plumbing.

    The point, Sailor, is that arguing about whether a Koran can actually go down a toilet is ridiculous...if a detainee thinks it went down, it went down... If it was tossed into a slop bucket, does it really make a difference from having gone down a toilet? It's still covered in feces, is it not? Does it bloody matter? Let's stop this silliness about whether or not a Koran can go down a bloody toilet and focus on the issue: if it happened, is it acceptable conduct from agents acting for a government?

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#37)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:22 PM EST
    Ernesto - Based on your comments, you are again flirting with saying that we deserved to be attacked. Can you tell us why? Because we had non-believers who probably were mishandling Korans? Come on, Ernesto. You know the Koran is a phony issue, and that you are just using it. Tell us what the real reasons were. Bag - Where is it written that America is supposed to scarifice and make the world a better place? Do it yourself, Oh Canada!

    No where, PPJ...and where is it written that the U.S. is the world's keeper?

    Re: Newly Released Documents Show Koran Abuse Char (none / 0) (#39)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:23 PM EST
    Blag - It is written in two holes in the ground in New York City.

    That's where you're so wrong, Jim, that it's pathetic...9/11 gives you the right to seek justice for that act...it does not entitle America to stomp around the world like a wounded elephant... What would you say native Indians would have a right to do to white America? Or blacks? Or all of the people killed in America's "friendly dictator" countries? If you think 9/11 justifies whatever Anmerica does after, you just justified 9/11 for every Muslim who has a beef with you...think about that, Jim....