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Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty

Update (by TChris): After 13 days of deliberations, the jury found Lynne Stewart guilty of providing material support to terrorists. She will remain free until her sentencing on July 15, but she will not be allowed to leave New York.

Update (TL):

I completely disagree with this verdict. In fact, I'm shocked. And saddened.

More news is here, including this picture of her leaving court after the verdict with her husband.

I think she will get an appeal bond...clearly there are substantial issues of law and fact that would result in a reversal or new trial if decided in her favor. (That's the legal test for getting an appeal bond.)

Also, in light of Booker and FanFan, clearly this is a case calling for non-adherence to the guidelines. The Court can consider them and make a ruling they should not apply in this case.

She vowed to appeal and blamed the conviction on evidence that included videotape of Osama bin Laden urging support for her client. The defense protested the bin Laden evidence, and the judge warned jurors that the case did not involve the events of Sept. 11.

"When you put Osama bin Laden in a courtroom and ask the jury to ignore it, you're asking a lot," she said. "I know I committed no crime. I know what I did was right."

Lawyers have said Stewart most likely would face a sentence of about 20 years on charges that include conspiracy, providing material support to terrorists, defrauding the government and making false statements. She will remain free on bail but must stay in New York until her July 15 sentencing.

Original post (by TL):
Lynne Stewart Finds Threat Taped to Her Door

The jury in the trial of defense lawyer Lynne Stewart is still deliberating. Yesterday, she reported receiving a threat taped to the door of her apartment in Brooklyn. It was reportedly from the radically militant Jewish Defense Organization:

The flier said that Ms. Stewart and one of her clients, Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, were "traitors to America" and referred readers to a telephone number and to the Web site of the Jewish Defense Organization.

A recorded voice mail message reached by dialing the number says the group - which describes itself as a militant Jewish group - is beginning "Operation Crush Terror Against Lynne Stewart." The message gives Ms. Stewart's home address and says she "needs to be put out of business legally and effectively," threatening to "drive her out of her home and out of the state."

Part of the campaign, the message says, is "to reach out so the jurors understand what she is." It adds, "And that's been done."

Check out the prosecutor's response:

Robin Baker, a prosecutor, argued that the fliers outside court were a legal form of political expression, not much different from the placards that Ms. Stewart's supporters have often carried there.

The Jewish Defense Organization confirms its intent to ruin Stewart:

In a telephone interview after the jurors went home for the day, Jeff Klein, who said he was a board member of the Jewish Defense Organization and a spokesman, said the group had not tried to contact any jurors directly. He said the group decided to begin the campaign against Ms. Stewart on Monday night.

"We're stepping things up," said Mr. Klein, adding that he had recorded the voice mail message. "We're hoping she's convicted, but our campaign is to ruin her by getting her neighbors to evict her from her home, and to put pressure on the landlord to evict her from her office. When we're done making their life miserable, hopefully they will make her life miserable."

Despicable. The group and their actions. Here is their screed against Stewart from their website.

It's important to note that the Jewish Defense Organization, an offshoot of the Jewish Defense League, does not represent the views of Jews in America--in fact. it grossly distorts them. In the words of the Anti-Defamation League, their leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane, murdered by an Arab extremist in 1990,

... consistently preached a radical form of Jewish nationalism which reflected racism, violence and political extremism.

They are terrorists. In the words of Steven Rombom, the "Jim Rockford of Jewish private detectives" and self-styled security expert,

"Terrorists, for the most part, are cowards," he said. "They go after light targets."

Supporters of Lynne Stewart address the group's misdirected anger. They point out these connections with media links between the CIA and the Stewart's client, the blind Sheik, from Cooperative Research Center.

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  • Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#1)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:26:04 PM EST
    Michael Ditto, You need to have your nose rubbed in this. First I read as you admonish me for my brownshirt references in the Churchill thread. Then I read this. These people are carbon copies of the you-know-who. They'd kill Stewart in a heartbeat given half a chance. They are organized, trained and well funded. A fascist is a fascist is a fascist. Time and country are irrelevant. It's all in the wrist. You better wake up. They're in our yard.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#2)
    by Kitt on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:41:05 AM EST
    It just blows me away that anyone would think it's perfectly okay to threaten the life of someone else, regardless of who they are simply because you don't agree with them on something.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:49:35 AM EST
    That's scary

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:23:09 AM EST
    Those opposing Lynne Stewart should remember Pastor Martin Niemöller's words. "First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me." The right of a lawyer of your choice to speak for you is not a right to be lightly discarded. Bert

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#5)
    by Andreas on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:38:12 AM EST
    That "prosecutor" whould have been an excellent legal representative of the German Nazis when they organised the boycott against jewish shop-owners. Meir Kahane was a fascist.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:16:52 AM EST
    Folks, it's easy to jump to conclusions; this could be a 'false color' operation. Meaning someone other than the supposed Jewish group may be the instigator of this trash, attempting to create a backlash against all such groups. Until there's an investigation into this, I'd withhold judgement. Governments practice this game all the time.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:55:33 AM EST
    We live in dark times.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#8)
    by DonS on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:55:43 AM EST
    . . . and the tooth fairy just brought me a million bucks! Take a look at the web site. Perfectly believable.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 06:37:15 AM EST
    Hey NEMO, you want to talk about "False Flag" operations, you should read the website i've included. when you're done you'll probably be more inclined to believe that the shills in the JDO are totally capable AND willing to do so. http://www.rense.com/general50/blame.htm

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:07:47 AM EST
    Is this the same group founded by Holocaust survivors to kidnap or murder former Nazis and (sometimes) bring them to trial?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:29:16 AM EST
    KBK (K*KES being K*KES)

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:29:31 AM EST
    "First the Jews came for the Palistinians and I did not speak out because I was not a Palistinian. Then they came for the Iraqies and I did not speak out because I was not a Iraqy. Then they came for the Iranians and I did not speak out because I was not an Iranian. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:30:31 AM EST
    John Kennedy Martin Luther King Malcom X Bobby Kennedy Not necessarily killed by JDL, but certainly killed for their beliefs. And all in our "free" Country. Watch what you say.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#14)
    by nolo on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:41:08 AM EST
    Death threats from extremist nutjobs are bad. And threatening criminal defense lawyers who defend unpopular clients is bad. But this thread is starting to look like an open sewer. For shame.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#15)
    by Kitt on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:42:13 AM EST
    Best buds of the prez and the face of fascism, which is ultimately about control and instilling fear......ran across this on Reuters: "RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — Male voters converged at polling stations in the Riyadh region on Thursday to participate in city elections, marking the first time Saudis are taking part in a vote that largely conforms to international standards. Women were banned from casting ballots." Oh....I digress - sorry. Hayster's link And then there's some bigoted pig here under a few assumed names 'Shlomo Ifelt-Herup'; 'SeeHearReact'. I'm not commenting on whether it's the JDL or not. My comments are concerning those who think it's perfectly fine to threaten another's life and to rant about those not worthy to live in this country while being the very epitome of that which they scorn.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:05:01 AM EST
    Folks, "First they came for the Communists." Socialists and trade unionists came next. As my blog's tagline has it, "penultimately they came for the Jews." When was the last time you heard a communist view expressed in America? How about socialists? Trade unionist? As a Jew, I'm watching what happens to the gays and the Muslims and the radicals very carefully. Regarding the JDO: They're a joke. Their only violent incident involved a gunfight with another JDL faction! The head of the JDO is known for calling Jewish newspapers using a false name and a false voice. Meir Kahane was an interesting, strong, dangerous leader. His assassination was arranged by Stewart's client. The JDO is a handful of 30 year olds who want to be terrorists when they grow up... which they never will. And yes, they are dumb enough to spark a mistrial.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:24:01 AM EST
    Being that Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and the JDO is involved, it would make sense that the Sheik had the threat posted, it benefits him the most. Mohammadanism instructs that war is deception.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:31:39 AM EST
    BurgerBoy at February 10, 2005 09:24 AM ...Mohammadanism instructs that war is deception. if i may inquire as to where that originated from, your own mind, acceptable.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:59:36 AM EST
    Dear hardleft this is just an small bit. I have read a little on the subject and have become convinced that the jihad parts of Mohammadanism are not above taqiyya (prevarication) Failing to drive rift among his enemies through bribery, the Prophet resorted to deceit. A man called Nueim, approached him and offered his services. Muhammad asked him whether he could break up the confederacy against him, by deceiving the Jews and the Quraish and he added "for War verily is a game of deception", He said. Sincerely BurgerBoy Dear SeeHearReact The Myth of ‘Palestine’ When did this “Palestine” ever form any government, or have a capital or even maintain an embassy? ‘Palestine’ is a hypothetical county based not on a common ethnic background but based on a common hatred of Israel and the Jews. Sincerely BurgerBoy

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#20)
    by Peaches on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 09:14:25 AM EST
    BurgerBoy says about The Myth of ‘Palestine’ When did this “Palestine” ever form any government, or have a capital or even maintain an embassy? ‘Palestine’ is a hypothetical county based not on a common ethnic background but based on a common hatred of Israel and the Jews. And what do you say about the Palestinian people? Are they also a myth? Are they just 'hypothetical' people created for enjoyment of killing by the Israelis. Hate is a common currency freely available for both sides to use. BB you have your own hatred to resolve before anyone, other than your fellow hatemongers, can take your opinion seriourly on matters of diplomacy.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 09:39:55 AM EST
    I keep thinking of what Lenin said about 'useful idiots'; this causes me to wonder if there are 'wheels within wheels' at work here. WRT what I was saying: there are a multitude of groups and countergroups that have agendas at once both arcane and vicious. I prefer not to jump to any conclusions given how highly charged this matter is. I want to see an investigation made concerning this incident before fingers start pointing. This county has been the target of successful 'false flag' ops before (the US attack on Libya in 1985 was a perfect example of such misdirected force) and it wouldn't surprise me if someone was trying to do that domestically.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#22)
    by BigTex on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:07:04 AM EST
    It's terrible that th' JDO is tryin' t' go after th' filly, and is willin' t' go after anyone who is helpin' her. It's pretty much indistinguishable from th' rattlers in Iraq, except fer scale. This would be a good test case fer usin' th' anti-terror laws against homegrown terror groups. Though we do have t' be careful about speakin' out against th' prosecutor in this case, he is merely pointin' out that th' rattlers have th' right t' engage in political speech, no matter how repugnant it is. T' prevent th' rattlers from bein' able t' engage in th' speech, as long as they break no laws, is t' gut civil liberties and th' 1st Amendment.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:19:40 AM EST
    hardLeft meet Peeved. Peeved, hardL...Oh. Never mind. He is you.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:29:03 AM EST
    I'm so tired of militant groups. Beliefs are dangerous, I prefer ideas.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:38:50 AM EST
    Big Tex, meet the letter "e", E...Tex.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:41:35 AM EST
    on February 10, 2005 11:19 AM hardLeft meet Peeved. Peeved, hardL...Oh. Never mind. He is you. he is also PeaNutGallery VilliageParent xVet and some others and your point would be...

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:53:39 AM EST
    Dear Peaches What do I say about the Palestinian people? They are a group of Arabs that emigrated to this area and hold no common ethnic background ( Arafat was from Egypt ) but only hold a common hatred for Israel and the Jews. By 1948, the Palestinians had not yet discovered their ancient nation of Falastin. They were offered half of Palestine west of the Jordan river for a state. They refused and six Arab states launched a war of annihilation against Israel. Trans-Jordan succeeded in taking Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem and banning Jews of all nations from Jewish holy places. Egypt succeeded in taking the Gaza Strip and together with Trans-Jordan held these lands for 19 years. These two Arab states never offered to surender these lands to form an independent state of Falastin, neither did the Palestinians seek such a state. In 1947, the U.N. drew borders for a Palestinian and a Jewish state, dictated largely by the areas populated by these groups. Jews agreed to live in peace with a Palestinian state. Arabs refused to allow a non-Muslim state to exist in their midst, and declared war to destroy Israel. "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." -- delegate of Saudi Arabia United Nations Security Council, 1956 "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not." -- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946 "There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#28)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:53:59 AM EST
    mfox, I had no idea you were one of the stars of Sesame Street. Which letter will be featured on tomorrow's show?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:00:47 AM EST
    Kdogma! I agree.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:08:48 AM EST
    good one mfox!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:45:47 AM EST
    "A plague on both their houses." This group trying to intimidate a lawyer from representing her client is reprehensible. SeeHearReact's post is reprehensible (and so is the spelling -- jeepers!) BurgerBoy's posts on the Palestinians are also reprehensible. Palestinians are a group of people that happened to emigrate to an area? Join the club, Americans, Canadians, Brits, and just about every other country in the world. Sheesh. Your views are extreme and not supported by the facts. A good book to read is Righteous Victims by Benny Morris, if you're really interested in learning about the Israeli/Palestinian history and conflict. By the way, I am Jewish and I work at a Jewish organization that supports programs in Israel. I just can't stand extremism of any kind. Now go clean up your brains. Y'all are icky.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#33)
    by nolo on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:13:36 PM EST
    I second everything webmacher said, and concur in his recommendation of Righteous Victims.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:15:33 PM EST
    To Quaker in a Basement (with apologies to Big Tex, whose ideas I like but whom I find extremely irritating to read - although I plug in John Wayne's voice, which helps...) LOL on Sesame Street. I watch it more often than you would believe (having a young child). LOL, as you may know, the letter of the day is a surprise and not leaked beforehand (and you know where insider info got Martha Stewart!)

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:18:34 PM EST
    webmacher at February 10, 2005 12:45 PM
    By the way, I am Jewish and I work at a Jewish organization...I just can't stand extremism of any kind
    Baruch Hashem for moderate Jews! Most of my Israeli friends (big surprise) are not fans of Sharon and his right wing policies.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:29:14 PM EST
    this is dreadfully off-topic, but I couldn't resist playing with the Swedish Chefferizer...and with apologies to BigTex... It's terreeble-a thet t' JDO is tryeen' t' gu effter t' feelly, und is veellin' t' gu effter unyune-a vhu is helpeen' her. It's pretty mooch indeestingooisheble-a frum t' rettlers in Ireq, ixcept fer scele-a. Thees vuoold be-a a guud test cese-a fer useen' t' untee-terrur levs egeeenst humegroon terrur gruoops. Thuoogh ve-a du hefe-a t' be-a cereffool ebuoot speekeen' oooot egeeenst t' prusecootur in thees cese-a, he-a is merely pueentin' oooot thet t' rettlers hefe-a t' reeght t' ingege-a in puleeticel speech, nu metter hoo repoognunt it is. T' prefent t' rettlers frum beeen' eble-a t' ingege-a in t' speech, es lung es zeey breek nu levs, is t' goot ceefil leeberties und t' 1st Emendment. Bork Bork Bork! (There's also an A-Team/Mr. T version of this tool somewhere... Google should dig it up.)

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:34:08 PM EST
    Just heard... Lynne Stewart GUILTY on all counts!!!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#38)
    by Andreas on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:37:45 PM EST
    I know that Talkleft generally does not like to see debates about the history of Israel and Zionism here and I respect that. But there are a few Pro-Zionist comments about the history of Israel and Palestine in this thread which I do not intend to accept silently. For a more objective review of the history of Israel see: Fifty years since Israel's founding By Bill Vann, 29 May 1998 See also: WSWS : Israel and Palestine

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:41:43 PM EST
    Just heard... Lynne Stewart GUILTY on all counts!!! From the nytimes guilty

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:02:29 PM EST
    Nice catch Che!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:17:22 PM EST
    ALL counts? There was only one. 2 earlier counts were thrown out.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:31:44 PM EST
    YEAH!!! Ms. Stewart got exactly what she deserves. My law class at NYU watched every bit of Stewart's trial and we unanimously voted that she'd be found guilty. Great verdict. Way to go jury!!!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:45:02 PM EST
    If it isn't safe for a lawyer to defend her client -- then who will defend ME if I am accused (however unjustly) of supporting 'terrorists'? What happens to Lynne Stewart now? This is SO DANGEROUS for us all!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:51:47 PM EST
    Jeff Klein, who said he was a board member of the Jewish Defense Organization and a spokesman, said the group had not tried to contact any jurors directly Did they try to contact jurors INDIRECTLY?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:12:40 PM EST
    jonathan at February 10, 2005 02:31 PM ...Great verdict. Way to go jury!!! ?and your desire is to be a presecutor, with republican/conservative leanings; no doubt?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#47)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:41:26 PM EST
    Web, Thanks for the book referral. I see Jewish people on both ends of the political spectrum (JDO vs Bill Maher). I really would like to read an objective analysis and history of the Palestine/Israel conflict.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:49:21 PM EST
    “To rid ourselves of the entrenched, voracious type of capitalism that is in this country that perpetuates sexism and racism, I don’t think that can come nonviolently.” -Lynne Stewart She certainly deserved the conviction. Death threat is obviously wrong. But it is also wrong to mix the 2. I think the prosecutor did a great job in making clear that helping terrorist , not defending them in court, is not going to be tolerated in this country. The one who wrote the death threat should be punished too. But that does not absolve Lynn's responsibility of helping insite violence. Even if one person die because of her actions, she deserves the death penalth, after a fair trial, of course.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:52:45 PM EST
    G U I L T Y !!! Good.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:14:46 PM EST
    February 10, 2005 03:49 PM ...she deserves the death penalth, after a fair trial, of course. i'm so glad some of you rep commentors are just that; commentors i would ask your god to help me if you every moved away from the keyboard(or couch) and got involved in real activiism, we would truly have passed the point of no return. btw: the reason i know your sitting on the couch, if you were active W would have won by more than 4%. maintaining civility!!!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:20:22 PM EST
    She's a leftist so let her go because the work she does is so important against the Bush=Hitler=Haliburton sect. I could care less about her politics, but I do care that she not only broke the law, but did it in a way which makes it harder for defense lawyers in the future. This hurts the innocent and the needy and all because of her arrogance.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:26:59 PM EST
    "i would ask your god to help me if you every moved away from the keyboard(or couch) and got involved in real activiism, we would truly have passed the point of no return." Nope .. I don't believe in God. And it seems to me that the country is just doing fine without me get involved in activism. In fact, this conviction is good evidence that there is still some common sense in this country.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#55)
    by john horse on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:29:27 PM EST
    How sad that our country now targets lawyers for the destitute and despised. How ironic that a Jewish group leaves hateful messages about her. As I recall, there was a time when Jews were destitute and despised.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:32:03 PM EST
    How ironic that a Jewish group leaves hateful messages about her. As I recall, there was a time when Jews were destitute and despised. And how ironic that someone who doesn't think all members of a group should be labeled for the actions of a few should be doing the same thing...

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:35:54 PM EST
    Webmacher: Have you said the same about Al Franken and "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot?" Throwing a demeaning descriptor in the line has nothing to do with her punishment. It is meant as a simple "Dig," that's all. Your outer casing needs a few more mils of thickness..

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:43:24 PM EST
    Actually, no, because he was being ironic and making fun of the way Rush Limbaugh talks about people. Personally, I find it more useful to criticize people's statements and actions than their appearance, but that's just me. I also try to stay away from cheap insults, but, do they, like, do irony in Southern California? ;-)

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:46:10 PM EST
    re: Kitt's comment on those ranting about those not deserving to live in this country... The problem isn't just these JDO/JDL/ADL extremists by far, it's a very common sentiment in America along with the caricatured stereotypes and bigotry and it's expression is uniquely judeo-centric, one can see it anytime you pick up a paper/mag or turn on the tv, even coming from Charles Schumer directed at those who don't support the US govs actions in Iraq ... "I know people like you," Schumer shot back, saying that Singer and his ilk were responsible for the destruction of the Democrat Party. "With your ideas you should not be allowed to be a teacher," the agitated Democrat added. "I know your type." (Source) .... Shlomo's remark about it being KBK, while blunt, is essentially correct and on the mark. But it's a lot easier to blame or attempt to address other peoples diseases(real or percieved) than it is to accept responsibility/accountability and deal with your own. While there are many who don't wish the JDO types to be seen as representing the whole at the end of the day they still came from the whole, most of us don't care about your internal power struggles or what not. That's not to say I think it's best to judge a community by it's trash(and every community does have it's trash, that's the ways of the world), but on the other one can pass a level of judgement on a community based on how they deal with it's trash. Protesting while it continually get's tossed dumped and littered into the rest of our yards, or worse claiming "it's not mine and doesn't represent me" doesn't count for a whole lot.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:52:41 PM EST
    it's a very common sentiment in America along with the caricatured stereotypes and bigotry and it's expression is uniquely judeo-centric Wow. I'm almost speechless. So would you say the same about Arab Americans? Are they all collectively responsible for what a tiny minority do? Go on. Say it. I think somebody's got their own trash and disease to deal with... Oh, and if you believe in taking this concept, collective punishment, to its natural conclusion, see Rwanda, the Kurds, Bosnia, et al.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:54:50 PM EST
    That should've read "...on the other hand one can pass..." If the trash were better dealt with internally it wouldn't come to identify the whole, just part of the responsibilities and territories of being part of a community and society, judeo-centrics denials and failures here historically are a big part of the reasons behind the backlash and exclusionism, it predominantly isn't "hate" or "anti-semitism" etc., etc.,.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:01:00 PM EST
    "Oh, and if you believe in taking this concept, collective punishment, to its natural conclusion, see Rwanda, the Kurds, Bosnia, et al. " I wouldn't call this a natural conclusion, only in an environment where the exceptions become the norm, most people don't think this way, I hate to tell you. Just because someone sees you as a part of the problem as well doesn't mean everyone's out to get you. Get some real world experience and join humanity.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:01:19 PM EST
    Yes, and I repeat, I tell Arab Americans the same thing applies to them, even if they publicly disavow the tactics of extremist groups. Tell them you lump them all into the same group. I'm sure they won't interpret it as anti-Arab... go on and show how fair-minded you are!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:09:46 PM EST
    This is getting boring. May I ask why your standards are so different for different ethnic groups? And no, I don't think everyone's out to get me, but when I see bigotry, I call them on it. (See my posts earlier this thread regarding the charming person who was claiming "Palestinians" didn't exist.) Oh, the "humanity"...

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#65)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:11:01 PM EST
    Who issued a "much-disputed" tourist visa to the Sheik? With whom was the Sheik involved in efforts to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan? Who ignored the Sheik's alleged link to the assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane in 1990, allowing him to remain in the New York area? Who placed the Sheik under their "banner" and declared him to be "hands-off" prior to the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? Whom did the Sheik continue to assist in recruiting new mujaheddin after moving to the United States? Who was warned by Egyptian intelligence that the Sheik was planning new terrorists attacks prior to both the attack on Western tourists in Egypt and the bombing of the World Trade Center?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:11:40 PM EST
    Being part of a community or household comes with certain responsiblities. How these responsibilities are generally met(obviously there's no such thing as perfection) reflect on the entire community, for better and worse like it or not. It is not bigoted in any way to point this out. For the record I feel Arabs/Muslims do a much better job of addressing their responsibilities and internal problems than certain others. But again it's much easier to deflect...

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:16:49 PM EST
    A VERDICT HAS JUST BEEN REACHED IN THIS CASE!!!!!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#46)
    by demohypocrates on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:17:58 PM EST
    “To rid ourselves of the entrenched, voracious type of capitalism that is in this country that perpetuates sexism and racism, I don’t think that can come nonviolently.” -Lynne Stewart

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:18:16 PM EST
    re: Daithí Mac Lochlainn The answer isn't Arab/Muslim extremists lol excellent point, they probably shouldn't even be part of the discussion here as it isn't relevant unless it's as a "everybody does it it's someone elses problem" deflection. That's presuming people actually want to see the problems solved as opposed to just escaping responsibilities

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:18:38 PM EST
    I could care less about her politics, but I do care that she not only broke the law, but did it in a way which makes it harder for defense lawyers in the future. This hurts the innocent and the needy and all because of her arrogance. Invoking Godwin's law are we? Look, you can't have it both ways. If you think she's a terrible person and an awful lawyer, then you should be happy she's behind bars and not part of the Bar Association. Clients who need a good lawyer now have one less bad lawyer to choose from. So how can you say they're hurt by this? And surely you're not claiming that all because of this case, the Bush administration is REALLY going to be assaulting civil liberties now, are you? What a difference this one case makes!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    First of all, I disagree strongly with that statement of Lynne Stewart's. (Interesting that it's very similar to something Ward Churchill said...not to stir that back up again...oops) And it sounds like she went way beyond the normal job description for an attorney. So if they found her guilty fair and square, then she should go to prison! Having said that: Let the obese Eichmann rot What the h-e-double-hockey-sticks does her weight have to do with anything? If she looked like Ann Coulter, would that make a difference in what punishment you deemed appropriate? The one who wrote the death threat should be punished too. But that does not absolve Lynn's responsibility of helping insite violence. Even if one person die because of her actions, she deserves the death penalth, after a fair trial, of course. Well, it seems that it's not easy to prove that anyone died as a result of her actions A major part of the prosecution's case was Stewart's 2000 release of a statement withdrawing the sheik's support for a cease-fire in Egypt by his militant followers. Prosecutors, though, could point to no violence that resulted from the statement. As distasteful as her views are, I hardly think that they warrant the death penalty. Unless you have some evidence that the jury did not have -- specifically that she actively and specifically plotted violent attacks -- you're SOL. Your eagerness for her demise makes me suspicious of your concern that she have a "fair trial."

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:23:19 PM EST
    If you'd just left it at critizing the particular groups in question, or the neocons, I would have been perfectly comfortable with that (more than comfortable -- I'd agree with you 110%!) But you couldn't, because your problem is with the "judeo-centric". Anybody who is of the Jewish faith or culture is by your definition, part of the problem. So there's no difference in your mind. The pro-Palestinian Tikkun writer, the Jewish Voice for Peace members, Women in Black... doesn't matter. They're just as responsible as any neo-con, any nutty JDL member. That's lovely that you feel that the Arab/Islamic community does a better job of policing itself. I have no idea if that's true or not. But guess what? It doesn't matter if some groups claiming to represent all Arab and Muslim Americans do a "good job" or not. The individuals are individuals. They can't be held collectively responsible. Your kind of thinking, but on the other side, is part of what made things so deeply creepy in America after September 11. Sorry. I know you don't like being called a bigot, but poor thing, a bigot you are.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:45:20 PM EST
    One last time for webmacher lol The JDO's actions are there actions, I agree here. I'll offer an analogy, if someone leaves an old car that doesn't run in their yard, in my neighborhood it's a crime (violation if I'm not mistaken) which people can and are fined for. While there's obviously a problem with the car there's also a problem with the actions of the household who by their own actions deal with the broken car as they do, it would also be a problem of a community by it's action if it allowed junkyards in peoples lawns, in residential areas, to flourish. In any case while it would be ijust and wrong to judge the household or community on the condition/actions of the car itself,(and here's where we part) it isn't just the broken car that needs to be judged and dealt with when the homeowner/renter or community isn't living up to their responsibilities for the betterment of all either. Understand?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:55:42 PM EST
    One more time for John CubicZirconia (with a fake laugh in your direction too) I just pointed out a number of individuals and groups who are actively trying to work for peace and "live up to their responsibilities." You've 1) blown that off and 2) used some deeply creepy language pertaining to religious orientation and ethnicity. It wasn't "That Paul Wolfowitz did XYZ and it was really bad." It wasn't "The JDO or JDL are a bunch of nutcases because they've been threatening people!" It was the problem is "judeo-centric"! Sure sounds like you mean the problem is who Jews are as a group, not those individuals who do things you disapprove of. I really fail to see how your gross generizations and bigoted remarks are making any community better. But hey, I appreciate the scrambled efforts to backtrack and pretend you meant something else!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 05:16:04 PM EST
    Judeo-centric means someone who culturally or politically shares "jewish identity/interests" for lack of better words, ethnically or religiously...it applies to judeo-christians, many atheists, many agnostics, some Hindus etc., I'm not singling out jews, if I meant strictly jews I would have said jews. Using the term judeo-centric is no more "deeply creepy" than addressing so-called Arab/Muslim extremism which you seem to have no problem doing. If the problem were afro-centrics or italians cultural issues being discussed it'd be no problem using appropriate terms to identify and address the issue. The problem is that the matters' an issue you don't want addressed once it hits too close to home, if that makes me a "bigot" then so be it.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#72)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 06:13:36 PM EST
    Maybe I've been reading too fast. How did this become a thread about judeo-centric whatchamacallit? Seems there are several liberal views on this: 1. She didn't do it. 2. She did it, but it's legal. 3. She did it, it's illegal, but since this is an anti-US op she was facilitating, the US ought to let her off. IMHO, you need a different designated huggybear/martyr to BushHitler.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#73)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:04:09 PM EST
    Ms. Stewart's actions far exceeded that which is protected by attorney client relations. Protection of that relationship is necessary, but it can be abused -- as it was here. Passing secret messages to third parties was not necessary to prepare his appeal.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#75)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:14:49 PM EST
    Hey Ace, Did you see the Superbowl commercial where the one chimp is kissing the other chimp's ass? Just wondering.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#76)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:37:42 PM EST
    "Maybe I've been reading too fast. How did this become a thread about judeo-centric whatchamacallit?" Maybe you're playing dumb. ;-) "As far as the JDL theatening her life? I doubt it very much as that they have kind of fallen off the political spectrum since the assasination of their leader some years ago." They have more power and influence than many would like to admit. I think it was this past year that their leader suicided in prison awaiting trial on terror related charges, threatening to blow up a congressman's office or something. Their groups collectively(many even inividually) have more power than the KKK did in their prime, not long ago you virtually couldn't get elected in this country without their backing, same goes with the ADL/AIPAC etc., The Lubavitchers are an example of one who's quite powerful but you'll rarely hear about them in the so-called mainstream media, likewise the JDL normally goes unreported on especially when compared to alleged extremist Muslim groups/charities here which get overplayed.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:45:41 PM EST
    re: Richard and Islamic Fundamentalism I don't doubt that many would rather we all Never Forget®™ who the real Terrorists are... /sarcasm

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:23:26 PM EST
    She is nothing but an easy target and she is a scapegoat for that rat called bush, his family and the laden family are real good friends, but ask why her? we are now all targets of this insane government.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#79)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:34:42 PM EST
    garble gobble horsefeathers

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#80)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:47:45 PM EST
    But she also testified that she believed violence was sometimes necessary to achieve justice: "To rid ourselves of the entrenched, voracious type of capitalism that is in this country that perpetuates sexism and racism, I don't think that can come nonviolently." -Lynne Stewart-
    Well she is not a good lawyer. Even I know that threatening the government with a violent takeover is unconstitutional and unAmerican.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:23:45 PM EST
    Burgerboy, maybe you better re-read Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address :
    "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."
    Looks like he would be indicted today.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#82)
    by Patriot on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 02:57:31 AM EST
    Even I know that threatening the government with a violent takeover is unconstitutional and unAmerican Blasphemy! ..... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. ........ That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 04:35:23 AM EST
    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#84)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 06:32:22 AM EST
    Exactly what are you saying, TL? That because your group lost the election the time has come for revolution? Do you really believe Abe would look around him at what America is today and decide the time is right to overthrow govt..."of the people...by the people...for the people..."?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#85)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 07:11:08 AM EST
    Webmacher: "(See my posts earlier this thread regarding the charming person who was claiming "Palestinians" didn't exist.)" I also noticed that you got awful quiet when BurgerBoy came back and *trounced* your argument with actual, historical facts.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#87)
    by Kitt on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 08:27:11 AM EST
    Ace: "....Do you really believe Abe would look around him at what America is today and decide the time is right to overthrow govt..."of the people...by the people...for the people..."?", blah, bla, bl... I know I'd said I'd take some time off and my eye is twitching to boot, but that is exactly what I mean about misinterpreting. TL is not saying 'Abe would look around him at what America is today...' In response to the statement - "Even I know that threatening the government with a violent takeover is unconstitutional and unAmerican." a portion of Lincoln's inagugural address is given that basically says, well exactly what it says. We as Americans have a constitutional right to rid ourselves of a repressive gov't, or as Abe says "or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." You're not looking for answers, Ace; you're simply looking for confrontation.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#88)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 08:46:41 AM EST
    Dear TL I believe that Mr Lincoln is referring to a point in time when the government goes against the majority of Americans, not when some little fringe group doesn’t like current policy. Mr Lincoln would never advocate for some angry hate filled militant minority group to overthrow the government.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 09:56:30 AM EST
    There's a word for what Lynne Stewart was practicing: Treason She crossed the line from dissent clear over to aiding and abetting. The fact that the left can't see that is disturbing.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 11:06:11 AM EST
    Even I know that threatening the government with a violent takeover is unconstitutional and unAmerican
    . what, What, WHAT! When the gov't no longer serves the people, it is the patriotic duty of every American to overthrow said gov't. It doesn't get any more American than that. Burgerboy, threatening the gov't with violent revolt is un-totalitarian, not un-American. You scare me bro.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 11:44:43 AM EST
    Well, James Robertson, who damaged America more, Lynne Stewart or the person who revealed that Valerie Plame was a CIA operative? What sentence would you, or anyone else here who revels in Lynne's conviction, recommend for that traitor?

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#92)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 12:35:43 PM EST
    Kitt, there is more between heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy. Web, I've been to southern CAL; not only do they do irony, they do metaphors, too. Che, the ass-kissing got by me. I thought it was an ad for people frustrated with their work colleagues; obviously you're more observant of chimp behavior than I am.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#93)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 12:55:56 PM EST
    Please, all left-wingers, keep defending this terrorist helper loudly and proudly. Our civil liberties are going into the trash can under this Nazi Bush! Her right to aid terrorists in attacking us must not be abridged. P.S. anybody getting the feeling the Democrats will never win a Presidential election again....

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 01:22:13 PM EST
    Dear Kdog "the people" refers to the majority of Americans, not a small minority. And yes it is unAmerican (anti-American) definition according to Webster -opposed or hostile to the people or the government policies of the United States- That fits Lynne Stewart very well. Hey so does traitor! -the offence of attempting by overt acts overthrow the government of state to which the offender owes allegiance- Now that should frighten you!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#95)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 02:17:58 PM EST
    You really should read some of the sacred founding documents sometime, perhaps starting with the Declaration of Independence, and also do some research on the history of corporations, banks/bankers, etc., Benjamin Franklin was right, the Founding Fathers(and Mothers) are being cursed in their graves.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#96)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 02:18:02 PM EST
    Burger Boy Would it surprise you to know that the American Revolution was fought by a radical minority opposed to the British government. Most people living in the colonies didn't support the revolution. In fact, revolutions are usually fought by minorities, because majorities have the votes to run things the way they want. And yes, I know the Shiites were an oppressed majority...I think that's an oxymoron...but IMHO when they got tired of it, they'd do something about it..yes, revolt,.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#97)
    by Richard Aubrey on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 04:43:08 PM EST
    First, Stewart was working for Stalinist oppression. When that fell through, she started working for Islamist oppression. The revos' biggest delusion is that the murderous 'crats of Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or OBL, or Teheran will let them be in charge. Nope. It's up against the wall. Once the bad guys are in charge, the last thing they want around is revolutionaries.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 10:22:10 AM EST
    Because I just don't know when to quit... Let's take it from the top, JD. You started off with The problem isn't just these JDO/JDL/ADL extremists by far, it's a very common sentiment in America along with the caricatured stereotypes and bigotry and it's expression is uniquely judeo-centric, and gave a very weird example of somebody who has uttered the same "protest is unAmerican" canard that a million other righties have. What is Jewish about that other than the fact that the speaker may be Jewish? What specificly is your policy complaint? Because you didn't start with that. You complained about the ethnicity of the person. Does it mean nothing to you that the majority of American Jews opposed the Iraq war (for instance) -- certainly a greater percentage than the population as a whole? Oh, and did you read the story at the top of this thread, or did you just jump in here to talk smack about Jews? In case you missed it, the attorney who got convicted was representing several accused terrorists, who happened to be Middle Eastern. So it was actually a fair question. I gave you examples of Jews and Jewish groups that do "fight the power". You come back with some weird metaphor about broken-down cars and trash. As my friend James used to say to me in high school, "I'm African-American. "'Afro' is a hairstyle." But sure, I'll bite. If you were to talk about Condi Rice and Colin Powell, and then say "The problem is uniquely African-American-centric..." I can't think of an Italian example, but I know what your language and rationalizations remind me of -- the extreme right's complaints about the "Homosexual Agenda" in this country. I guess in order to satisfy your requirements I now have to point out that I'm not African-American, Italian, or gay -- and I still find your way of thinking repulsive no matter what group we're talking about. But hey, that's great you admitted you're a bigot! Acceptance is the first step on the road to recovery. Now I'm off to enjoy my weekend!

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 01:09:16 PM EST
    Dear TL Thank you for your recommendation that I re-read Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address. ‘You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect and defend" it.’ ‘Before entering upon so grave a matter as the destruction of our national fabric, with all its benefits, its memories, and its hopes, would it not be wise to ascertain precisely why we do it? Will you hazard so desperate a step, while there is any possibility that any portion of the ills you fly from, have no real existence? Will you, while the certain ills you fly to, are greater than all the real ones you fly from?’ ‘Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States, that by the accession of a Republican Administration, their property, and their peace, and personal security, are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension.’ ‘If it were admitted that you who are dissatisfied, hold the right side in the dispute, there still is no single good reason for precipitate action. Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty.’ March 4, 1861 Sincerely BurgerBoy

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#100)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 01:23:57 PM EST
    Burger Boy, you can quote the rest of the speech all you want (although not here, bandwith is expensive) - Lincoln still said the part I quoted and you don't dispute that. Lynne Stewart never advocated violence. Even in the paragraph you cite in an earlier comment, she was expressing her view on whether certain types of change can occur without it. Big, big difference.

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#101)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Feb 12, 2005 at 01:45:55 PM EST
    Dear TL You are right I do not dispute that. I was trying to prove that your quote was not meant to be taken literally, which I though became obvious when compared to his other comments. I stand corrected on my accusation that Lynne Stewart advocated violence..

    Re: Lawyer Lynne Stewart Found Guilty (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:59:34 AM EST
    LYNNE STEWART: HER COMPLICITY IN THE DEATHS OF OVER 2OO PEOPLE On September 20, 1999 Ahmed Abdel Sattar, Lynne Stewart's co-defendant and co-conspirator, told CC-3 telephonically that the cease-fire between the Islamic Group and Egypt should be canceled. Enthused by the success of its what it calls anti-terrorist measures, the Egyptian government had ignored calls for a truce and it was time for Mubarak to pay the price.[1] In October 1999 Islamic Group sleeper agent Gamil El-Batouty (also spelled Batouti) was activated. Prior to his employment at EgyptAir, First Relief Officer Gamil El-Batouty was employed as a flight instructor, first for the Egyptian Air Force and later for a Government-operated civilian flight-training institute in Egypt. El-Batouty became a Major in the Air Force before he transitioned to the flight-training institute, where he eventually became the chief flight instructor. In the Egyptian military El-Batouty became a secret member of the Muslim Brotherhood, as so many religious Egyptians are. From the Muslim Brotherhood, it is only a stone’s throw away to the Islamic Jihad Group. On October 31, 1999, at about 1:50 a.m., Eastern Standard Time, Egypt Air flight 990, a scheduled international flight from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic Ocean about 60 miles south of Nantucket Island, Massachusetts. First Relief Officer Gamil El-Batouty deliberately destroyed that plane on orders from Rifa’i Taha Musa, who had been ordered to resume the fight against the Egyptian government by Rahman and other imprisoned leaders of Al-Gama’a and Al-Jihad.[1] The exiled militant leaders endorsed this call.[2] About 20 minutes after takeoff, as the airplane was climbing to its assigned altitude, Gamil El-Batouty suggested that he relieve the command first officer, Ahmed al-Habashi, at the controls, stating, “I’m not going to sleep at all. I might come and sit for two hours, and then…” indicating that he wanted to fly his portion of the trip at that time. Al-Habashi was surprised at this request and exclaimed, “But I slept.” A few minutes later al-Habashi said, “Excuse me, Gamil while I take a quick trip to the toilet before it gets crowded while they are eating, and I’ll be back to you.” About eleven seconds after the captain left the cockpit the Cockpit Voice Recorder recorded an unintelligible comment. Ten seconds later El-Batouty stated quietly, “I rely on God.” A few seconds later the autopilot was disengaged and El-Batouty repeated, “I rely on God” and the Flight Data Recorder recorded an abrupt nose-down elevator movement and a very slight movement of the inboard ailerons. Subsequently, the airplane began to rapidly pitch nose down and descend in the direction of the Atlantic Ocean. The Cockpit Voice Recorder revealed extreme heroism on the part of El-Batouty, and a deep faith in Allah. 01.48:48: El-Batouty: I rely on God. 01.48:52: [Thrust Throttle Lever Retarded to Idle] 01.48:53: [Aircraft Begins a 40-Degree Angle Dive Towards the Ocean] 01.49:08: [Tones of Aural Master Caution] 01.49:21: [Right Engine Start Lever Manually Switched from “Run” to “Cutoff”] 01:49:22: [Left Engine Start Lever Manually Switched from “Run” to “Cutoff” and Elevators Split in Opposite Direction] [3] 0149:30.16: [sound of two faint thumps and one louder thump] 0149:48.42: I rely on God. 0149:57.33: I rely on God. 0149:58.75: I rely on God. 0150:00.15: I rely on God. 0150:01.60: I rely on God. 0150:02.93: I rely on God. 0150:04.42: I rely on God. 0150:05.89: I rely on God. 0150:06.37: What’s happening? What’s happening? [Flight captain returning to cockpit] 0150:07.07: I rely on God. 0150:08.53: What's happening? 0150:15.15: what's happening, Gamil? What's happening? 0150:19.51: [four tones similar to Master Caution aural beeper] 0150:24.92: What is this? What is this? Did you shut the engine(s)? 0150:25.00: [change and increase in sound, heard only through first officer's hot microphone system] 0150:26.55: Get away in the engines. [Translated as said] 0150:28.85: Shut the engines. 0150:29.66: It's shut. 0150:31.25: Pull. 0150:32.75: Pull with me. 0150:34.78: Pull with me. 0150:36.84: Pull with me. [End of Cockpit Voice Recorder] “TAWAKKALT ALA ALLAH” The meaning of the words “Tawakkalt Ala Allah” had to be explained. The United States Government reported: “This phrase was originally interpreted to mean “I place my fate in the hands of God.” Other translations included, “I entrust myself to God,” “I put my fate in your hands,” “I made my decision now. I put my fate in God’s hands.” The interpretation of this Arabic statement was later amended to “I rely on God” by the Egyptians. According to an EgyptAir and Egyptian Civil Aviation Authority presentation to the NTSB staff on April 28, 2000, this phrase “is very often used by the Egyptian layman in day to day activities to ask God’s assistance for the task at hand. It is used only when someone embarks on a good action and not a bad one.” From our perspective, El-Batouty’s action was a good one. The Feds should have realized that the expression “I rely on God” or “I depend on God” had been heard before, on tapes made by Emad Salem, as he videotaped in the Holland Tunnel: Siddig Ali: Because he is going home, he lives here. He will place it [the bomb] here and [it] depends on God. And he will see somebody waiting for him (UI) he will come out here as we are going now and they depend on God, that’s it, he leaves, he knows the way, let him go back quietly like this (UI). He goes out from here, straight to Canal Street east, then he depends on God with who brought him, they mention the name of God, the Almighty in every moment, during after and before the haddouta (UI) sing, pray, one bow for God the Almighty, to thank God for his blessing, then leave with a secured heart and mentally relaxed, proud of the job he has done, and ask God to consider it a good deed. Salem: Sheik, it is a film. Siddig Ali: You are making a film, you Yahood, do you have films in Israel, there, damn. You in Israel will get hit. Israel is called Palestine. God is great, Islamic, Islamic state. Conquered by our master Omar Bin-Al Khattab, may God bless his soul, the crusaders took it and Salah Al-Din took it back, then the Jewish dogs took, the grandsons of monkeys and pigs, and we will take it back God-willing. By God Yahood, this film will get us in severe trouble. It will be burnt. It will be erased by itself. The film is called Mission Impossible. [Noise of siren] Salem: Police, police oh my God, shall I sing for you a little bit (laughing) no please. In the name of God, the merciful, God, no God but God, he is the living God, (UI) prayers. Who are the enemies of God? Yeah, Jews, Christians and anybody other than Muslims? This is of course an enemy of God, right? Siddig Ali: Because there are non-Muslims and they are ignorants, nobody delivered the message to them, they could be enemies of God after and did not follow our God means he left out God and followed the devil means the holy Qu’ran explains it, whoever was an enemy of God and Jibril is our enemy (UI) he won’t bring blessing, they use to like Michael, God, out master Jibril is called the faithful, ha, the holy spirit, the faithful spirit…”[4] When the Egyptian spy Haggag was asked, “What else did you say to Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman?” he answered, “He told me, ‘Depend on God. Carry out this operation. It does not require a fatwa.’” The Egyptian Government refused to admit that this action marked the end of the cease-fire yet there were few possible alternatives. The first was that El-Batouty had committed suicide. Captain El-Batouty had no previous psychiatric treatment and there was no family history of mental illness, nor any suicidal attempts. The only family problem he had was that of an ill daughter, who was receiving treatment at UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles. He did not talk about suicide to any family member and did not leave any hint or written paper concerning this. El-Batouty had an affectionate personality with no psychopathic trends. He was married and had five children and three grandchildren. His sons were university students and two of them were about to be graduated. One of them was already working. He was making preparations for the marriage of another son in two months time. The family was stable and greatly respected the deceased father. El-Batouty, a devout Muslim, would not have asked for Gods help eleven times to carry out a deed that went against the laws of Allah, such as suicide. According to El-Batouty’s close friend, Marwan al-Shebbi, South-Tower pilot, his death was not suicide. Before his own death, Al-Shebbi stated that his “good friend” did not commit suicide, but, rather, died “on a mission of God [Allah].” Brother Marwan al-Shehhi told his barber in Falls Church, Virginia, that El-Batouty’s actions were “carried out in the name of God.”[5] The NTSB concluded, “The reason for El-Batouty’s actions was not determined.” Hamdi Hanafi Taha, an Islamic Fundamentalist who had filed suit against Egypt Air for serving alcohol and distributing food on airlines during Ramadan defected to England, sought asylum, and claimed that he had information on the crash of Flight 990. Although Taha came up with a cock and bull story about El-Batouty having told him that he wanted revenge against EgyptAir for a demotion it was significant that El-Batouty was traveling in Fundamentalist circles and that Rahman's Cairo lawyer, Muntasser el-Zayyat, said he knew Taha. The second alternative was that the plane crashed as a result of mechanical failure. This was the one settled upon by the Egyptian Government, but before it did so the government controlled Egyptian State Information Service carried this explanation on its website: “We, however, have pieced together the picture from a variety of sources. In light of available information, it seems likely that the U.S. Navy downed EgyptAir Flight 990. The Boeing 767 jet was targeted and hit twice by a special beam, followed by a missile, which blew the tail off the jet.”[6] The government of Egypt had to explain away the tape from the cockpit voice recorder and in its report it was stated: “There was no evidence of fight or struggle among the crew members during the dive, on the contrary, the evidence indicated a crew cooperating to recover airplane control. Analysis results also support the conclusion that there were more than two persons in the cockpit, especially at the start of the dive where there were repetitive general inquiry phrases at the time the engines were shut down. The captain returned to the cockpit almost immediately after the dive started, at an altitude of approximately 31,000 feet. There is no indication on the Cockpit Voice Recorder of a struggle or disagreement between the El-Batouty, the Captain or anyone else. There was also no effort to incapacitate El-Batouty or to restrain him. The cockpit conversations showed an effort at teamwork rather than a crew working at cross-purposes.” The NTSB disagreed. When the Captain first re-entered the cockpit he exclaimed, “What’s happening?” as he had no idea that El-Batouty was on a suicide mission. He thought that El-Batouty would help him to get the aircraft off its dive. This was why is appeared that the men were co-operating to save the aircraft. The NTSB pointed to the Flight Voice Recorder that had only recorded the conversation of two men in the cockpit to refute the Egyptians contention that there were additional men in the cockpit at the time of the crash. The NTSB contended that although there was no sign of disagreement between the two men El-Batouty only responded to the pilot’s remarks only once. The surprised reaction from the captain when the engines did not respond to the throttle movement (What is this? What is this? Did you shut the engines?) suggested that the captain was unaware that the engine start lever switches had been moved to the cutoff position, that such an action was at odds with his intentions, and that it was, therefore, not part of a mutual, cooperative troubleshooting exercise between the captain and El-Batouty. The NTSB pointed out that the sentence, “Get away in the engines,” was another example of a phrase where there was a direct translation of the Arabic words into English with no attempt to interpret or analyze the words that resulted in an awkward or seemingly inappropriate phrase: “In this case, it is possible that the captain, surprised to realize that the engines had been shut off, was trying to tell El-Batouty to leave the engines alone. Poor word choice, improper grammar, and the use of incomplete phrases can be symptomatic of high levels of psychological stress in a speaker.”[7] Egypt’s Defense Ministry confirmed that 33 military officers were aboard the EgyptAir flight that plunged into the Atlantic killing all 217 people aboard. The Joint Committee of on Intelligence of the U.S. Congress indirectly linked this action to us: “We believe that outside events also shaped al-Qaeda leaders' thinking about an airliner attack. [Deleted] the October 1999 crash of Egypt Air Flight 990, attributed in the media to a suicidal pilot, may have encouraged al-Qaeda’s growing impression that air travel was a vulnerability for the United States.” On November 14, 1999, during a telephone conversation with someone who shall go nameless, Sattar stated the “cease-fire” had still not worked because it had not succeeded in obtaining the release of Islamic Group leaders from prison and more action was necessary. In February 2000, with the help of Sattar and Yousry “and others known and unknown” Musa attempted to have a message conveyed to Sheik Rahman, but the message was not delivered due to security concerns. No mention of the downing of the flight was ever made, also due to security considerations. [1] . “Bloodbath at Luxor” The Economist, November 22, 1997, p. 53. In November 1997, over 10,000 suspects were estimated to be under arrest and detention. [2] . Reuters report in The Asian Age, October 14, 1997. [3] . These surface controls, located on the tail of the airplane, command the up or down movement of the aircraft’s nose. They normally move simultaneously in the same direction. Experts argued this could have indicated a struggle for control of the aircraft, with the flight captain pulling the control column up and the first officer pushing the column forward. EgyptAir officials have said the split could have been caused by the shock wave caused by the speed the aircraft was diving at, which was close to Mach 1. [4] . Exhibit USA v. Rahman CM-62 June 23, 1993. [5] . William Scott Malone - Unrecorded telephone Interview - October 17, 2003. [6] . The Egyptian State Information Service October 31, 2000 “Missing pieces of the puzzle,” Courtesy: The Egyptian Gazette http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html3/o311020h.htm [7] . National Transportation Safety Board News and Events March 21, 2002 Report on EgyptAir Flight 990 http://www.ntsb.gov/events/ea990/default.htm National Transportation Safety Board Washington, D.C. 20594 Aircraft Accident Brief Accident Number: DCA00MA006 Operator/Flight Number: EgyptAir flight 990 Aircraft and Registration: Boeing 767-366ER, SU-GAP Location: 60 miles south of Nantucket, Massachusetts Date: October 31, 1999. Adopted On: March 13, 2002 http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAB0201.pdf