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The Truth On Free Trade | 42 comments (42 topical)

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BTD (none / 0) (#4)
by Dave B on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:48:01 AM EST
What do you propose this country should do about it's disappearing manufacturing base?  Is that a healthy thing?

Manufacturing base misinformation (5.00 / 3) (#6)
by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:54:43 AM EST
Recently I have had some contact with people working for a German company that sells machines used in manufacturing.  The people I met basically do tech support for those machines all over the world.  Their comment about America was that the factories using their machines are under represented in younger people, people to take over when the older ones retire.  What do we do?  We have basically neglected the need the companies have for mid level highly technical labor force.  The push to get everyone into "college" without some kind of national strategy has millions of kids struggling with educations that go nowhere, when there are jobs that we need and have to fill.  There is no national policy.  

[ Parent ]
Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by tree on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:30:25 PM EST
And this is what Clinton was talking about on Leno the other night. Another reason why she would be a great President. She understands and would create a national policy to get us back on the right track.

[ Parent ]
Like immigration (5.00 / 5) (#14)
by Stellaaa on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:40:26 PM EST
this issue is used as a political football.  At the end we get nothing that makes things better.  Americans need to join in the movement of working to sustain western standard of living and civil society in a time of globalization.  We have allowed the corporations to take the lead, when civil society has to say what the limits are.  Makes my skin crawl.  

She talks about this all the time, but no one in the media covers it. They would rather keep people ignorant about the fact that their government can take action to make the economy viable.  

[ Parent ]

You are right on Stellaaa (none / 0) (#16)
by hairspray on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:18:59 PM EST
Vocational education has collapsed in this country. My ME son says that there are plenty of theoretical engineers working on rocket science where he lives (FLA) but getting well educated/trained technicians is getting harder every day.  It is like the tail chasing the head.

[ Parent ]
There is no vocational training (none / 0) (#20)
by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:29:37 PM EST
that will matter when an employer is looking at paying an American 20 dollars an hour versus cents on the dollar in another country. This is the fundamental issue being asked here. If people believe in the market, then they must admit to its failures with regard to national interests. Only countries are worried about its own people, companies are not. This means that while education is nice, it's not the solution. Getting more and more education or changing up education may have the appearance of doing "something" but what exactly are you doing? Are you creating job opportunities?

[ Parent ]
Some jobs can't be outsourced (none / 0) (#21)
by tree on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 01:52:44 PM EST
You can't take your car to a mechanic in India, you can't get a plumber from Romanis to make a housecall, you can't get anything built in the US by laborers  WHO LIVE IN another country. If we go heavy into solar and wind energy, there will be need for technicians here to install the panels and turbines, etc., etc. And likewise, as energy costs continue to soar, bringing items in from overseas will be less and less cost effective. To ignore the need for a skilled labor force here is to lose a great opportunity to improve the quality of life here for many.

[ Parent ]
Actually my point is that a skilled labor force (none / 0) (#22)
by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 02:05:24 PM EST
doesn't matter , the issue is pressure to reduce the cost of labor, and thus promoting a race to the bottom in wages in the U.S. Re-education within this scenario doesn't answer the wage concerns. It also doesn't answer the question to say that all jobs aren't transportable abroad. The question is what types of jobs are being transported,a nd how are they valued. intellectual capital jobs are the issue and manufacture jobs. Service jobs- the ones you describe- pay less. That reduces American wages, and our quality of life.  Fixing a machine maybe important, but building it and design it earns the most money.

[ Parent ]
heh (none / 0) (#25)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:10:59 PM EST
As long as society is making heroes of journalists, doctors and lawyers you will continue to get journalists, doctors and lawyers.

[ Parent ]
go to law.com and look up the issue (none / 0) (#27)
by bruhrabbit3 on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 10:35:45 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Actually my son is working on developing (none / 0) (#28)
by hairspray on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 10:38:18 PM EST
alternative energy out of petroalge ponds and finding technically competent mechanically trained technicians has been hard throughout the industry.

[ Parent ]
That's great- but I am still interested (none / 0) (#29)
by bruhrabbit3 on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 12:45:01 AM EST
 in the wage issue. How much are they earning? Will this replace the wages that are lost by the jobs that are leaving?

[ Parent ]
On the macro-level and in (none / 0) (#36)
by hairspray on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 01:25:35 PM EST
some states the new job growth does not make up for those dislocations.  That is why I think we need a robust industrial policy.  We really cannot stop certain industries from leaving and there has been much evidence that in NAFTA at least there have been some modest pluses for America..  BUT NAFTA needs to be renegotiated and both candidates have said they would do that.  What I like about Hillary's plan is the great emphasis she places on alternative energy investment and perhaps Obama does that also.  I remember that Bill talked about it years ago as the next new wave of American manufacturing resurgence. It just needs a hardworking leader to do it.  My son's company is a research and development company and I am praying for new capital to keep it going.

[ Parent ]
I don't have a problem with fair agreements for (none / 0) (#37)
by bruhrabbit3 on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 11:48:02 PM EST
trade. I have a problem with the characterization of criticism of these agreements and issues as demogues. I studied MITI in Japan and I know what a well thought out industrial policy can mean. I've also studied the other developed countries with smart industrial policies. I am not saying we should become protectionist of every industry that faces competition. I am saying let's get beyond the useless rhectoric of calling those who want to change policies 'demogues" I am skeptical of policy changes that focus on education. This is Clintonian 1990s rhectoric for this is allw e are going to do without regard to determining if its all that needs to be done. in some cases you may need to protect an industry while there is a transition or you may neeed to look at what jobs are replacing a,nd asking how are the other countries achieving it- perhaps it really is competition, or it could be that they are willing to kill their country men to do it. That can't be our standard for competition. It's complicated, but there are some real issues that can't be glossed over by pretending its just demogues.

[ Parent ]
There is nothing wrong with protecting (none / 0) (#38)
by hairspray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 12:20:18 AM EST
a few nationally important industries.  However, there are still lots of libertarians and Republicans who don't think the govt should be determining the winners and losers in industrial policy. On the other hand we should not be rewarding companies for "outsourcing.  But i do believe that investing in new technologies like our alternative energy potential will pick up a lot of the lost jobs in the industrial belts. The clothing industry is gone, and so are others, but that is not the end of the world. Alternative fuel and super rail systems are the wave of the future and has the potential to be very lucrative if we get the right leadership to push it along.  By the way my son's job pays quite well and the technicians make aroung 40k.  That is good for FI.  I am just furious that Bush set us back so many decades by his asinine and criminal foreign policy.

[ Parent ]
I don't care what Republicans or liberterians says (none / 0) (#39)
by bruhrabbit3 on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 07:18:45 AM EST
and if you are, then you are worrying about the wrong priorities. I care what the bulk of the American people say, and what policies makes sense for protecting their interests. This  isn't about Bush. It's about a mind set amongst Democrats about what our priorities are. I have no power so you don't have to worry, but if I did, the first thing to go would be this mind set of defensively looking over one's shoulder to what the Republicans think to formulate our own thinking.

[ Parent ]
Please no, not a Republican EVER (none / 0) (#40)
by hairspray on Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:32:30 AM EST
but I do know that they still have a lot of power in our government. Anything a new Democratic president does will be held hostage by a small coalition of blue dog Democrats and GOP. Therefore, the most sucessful policy will not be any kind of protectionism or unfortunately industrial policy.  I have read a great deal about FDR and his times.  He had a 25% unemploymnent rate and worse times than we have now but was unable to enact many reforms.  It won't be a lot different this time either.  So if you think we have someone on the national stage right now who will enact bold programs, I've got a bridge to sell you.  I think as long as the media controls the group think in America we are in for tough times.

[ Parent ]

The Truth On Free Trade | 42 comments (42 topical)

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