TalkLeft: The Politics Of Crime

Why We Need A Unity Ticket | 278 comments (278 topical)

I don't know. (5.00 / 3) (#2)
by corn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:40:31 PM EST

I think Obama's Achilles heel has been exposed and it's not clear to me that he'd do the ticket more good than harm. I used to agree that a unity ticket would be overwhelming, but now I think she might be better off on her own. With him in the lead slot, with or without her, he's sunk.

Half & Half (none / 0) (#23)
by Chimster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:49:41 PM EST

Half the Dems want him. Half want her. No matter what happens to his candidacy until the convention (apart from something colossal) half the Dems will want their choice of nominee to be on the ticket. Again, this ticket is unstoppable against McCain. No matter whether you lost respect for either of them, this will be the coolest Dem ticket we've ever seen.

[ Parent ]

It's not about my loss or respect (5.00 / 2) (#38)
by corn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 12:59:56 PM EST

for either of them. My feelings have been like yours for some time, but I really think, like many others here, that Wright seriously damages him. I don't think he can win the GE now and I don't think her as his VP changes that. With her in the lead I'm not so sure and hope you're right should we end up there.

[ Parent ]

We're talking about Wright in March (none / 0) (#45)
by Chimster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:04:54 PM EST

This horse will have already been flogged by the time November comes around. We haven't even touched McCain's can of worms yet. Just wait.

[ Parent ]

Good luck with that bet. (5.00 / 2) (#49)
by corn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:07:24 PM EST

Wright aint going no where.

[ Parent ]

: I want in on that bet! (4.00 / 4) (#59)
by Marvin42 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:11:11 PM EST

Who wants to play? I am taking "Wright until election day" if Obama is nominee, with more surprise tapes "surfacing" week before election.
How do we set odds? ;)

[ Parent ]

There is no way that Wright will not be a (5.00 / 6) (#54)
by tigercourse on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:10:26 PM EST

major factor in the last days of the campaign. They've got video, great video, and they aren't araid to use it. They only need to pull a small percentage of voters in key states away from Obama and Wight will help them do this. The attacks on Gore as a liar started early in the campaign and plagued him until the end. The attacks on Kerry as an out of touch Easter elite started early and plagued him until the end. Just because an attack comes out relativley early in the cycle doesn't mean it will be dropped by November.

[ Parent ]

You are right. (5.00 / 4) (#101)
by ghost2 on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:34:12 PM EST

In fact, it's the BEST way for an attack to work. Get it in the public mind early where it sits, and then remind them near voting time. Works beautifully, and much better than when it's new. All they need is a new video, or the slightest excuse (and they can easily make it by getting someone to say something), and harp on it.

[ Parent ]

Bingo (4.66 / 3) (#160)
by ColumbiaDuck on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:07:20 PM EST

And i would go further and argue that the reason the Wright videos had such an impact was because they played into a narrative that has been floating around in the conservative/media mind for awhile - that Obama isn't sufficiently American/patriotic (please note that I am not saying this is an accurate narrative, just that it was out there.)

How did this narrative get created? The ground work was being laid last year with the "madrassa" emails, the flag pin emails and the national anthem picture (which was taken last fall as i recall). So these tiny bits were floating around waiting for Wright to bring it all together. Now it will float around as a unified picture just waiting for the fall to be broadcast on commercial TV. (and it's no accident that the "national anthem" picture has become an issue again - reinforcement for Wright.)

[ Parent ]

This is why people see (5.00 / 1) (#216)
by Skex on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:55:27 PM EST

Democrats as wimps.

The going gets a little tough and instead of standing up for our ideals we fold like chumps.

Oooh the big mean republicans are going to attack my candidate guess I gotta give up now and run who they want me too.

Give me a break the biggest mistake the Democratic party has been making for the last 3 Decades is to let the opposition frame the debate.

They try to make it about Wright we make it about "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran"

They try to make it about race we make it about class.

McCain is vulnerable much of his base think he's the Manchurian candidate anyway add to that the fact that he's practically on his death bed and we'll be able to go hell bent on who ever he runs for for VP.

As far as the Wright stuff goes there isn't anyone with in a hundred miles of a TV or a computer that hasn't heard this stuff. But we got 8 months for that too loose it's sting.

Traditionally 20% of the electorate decides the election Obama will get get half that just on the African American vote add liberal younger whites and the anybody but a republican crowd and you got a wipe out.

The Wright angle will be played out long before the november election and the only way this could go at this point is in Obama's favor.

[ Parent ]

Wright's got some new comments that came out (5.00 / 1) (#220)
by cmugirl on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:01:08 PM EST

Now he's making comments about Italians

Maybe we can have an ethnic slur a week from this guy.

[ Parent ]

Garlic noses? (5.00 / 3) (#249)
by eric on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:26:48 PM EST

Saw this post and googled it. Here's what I found:

"The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans."

"From the circumstances surrounding Jesus' birth (in a barn in a township that was under the Apartheid Roman government that said his daddy had to be in), up to and including the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on a cross, a Roman cross, public lynching Italian style. ..."

What the heck is wrong with this guy? Is he trying to submarine Obama?

[ Parent ]

: I am not amused (5.00 / 2) (#269)
by waldenpond on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:42:52 PM EST

But I am offended on yet again. I don't think I have ever been thought of in so many disparaging ways at one time. Now my nose is offensive.

[ Parent ]

Double counting (5.00 / 2) (#251)
by badger on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:27:50 PM EST

Roughly, each candidate, R and D starts with 40% - that's where your 20% independent or swing voters comes from.

But the black vote does nothing for Obama with that 20%, because it's already in the 40% he begins with (and I'll acknowledge Clinton could lose some of that vote if she's the nominee). You don't get to count it again, because there are virtually no black swing voters in the 20%. There are a lot of Latinos in the middle though.

Similarly, the youth vote doesn't add much to Obama pulling votes out of the middle. In fact it probably only offsets at best the votes of Latinos, whites and women Obama loses. An increase in black turnout helps him too, but not much.

So that leaves Obama and Clinton in the same place - trying to attract more than half of the 20% that sits in the middle.

[ Parent ]

Hmmm.... (5.00 / 2) (#263)
by ColumbiaDuck on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:38:40 PM EST

I'm guessing you were not one of the Obama supporters that spent the first year of this campaign telling anyone who would listen that Clinton was too divisive to win? Because if I had a nickle for every time I heard that ... (I'd have a couple of bucks based on Obama's statements alone.)

It would be nice if Democrats fought this stuff - see any evidence of this happening? Me neither. Until it does, we need to be prepared for the reality that the media will do the RNC's job (as they always do) and try to torpedo the Democratic candidate. So we need to be aware of and ready for possible attacks. Saying it's gonna be a non-issue or "played out" won't cut it.

In fact, the Democratic establishment has done an absolutely horrible job of prepping the ground for an attack on McCain. See here for more. And I no more expect a vigorous defense from the Big Lib pundits for Obama than they gave Gore in 2000 - ie no defense at all.

But here's the rub for me - The Gore stuff in 2000 was largely bs. Made up. He never said he invented the internet. Didn't lie about Love Canal and was perfectly accurate in his statements about Love Story. The media twisted and turned all that and turned a stand up guy into a serial liar.

I am sorry to say that I can't feel as sympathetic about the Wright issue. Even if you agree with 100% of what he said, he was clearly a political liability. The fact that Obama didn't move on this earlier, and didn't respond as well as he should makes this a largely self-inflicted wound. IMO.

[ Parent ]

But it's already headlines (none / 0) (#64)
by Chimster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:13:52 PM EST

Unless something new comes up from it, this card has already been played.

[ Parent ]

I respectfully disagree (5.00 / 2) (#105)
by Lou Grinzo on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:36:50 PM EST

The issue has had saturation coverage for the political geeks, like everyone on this site, but not for the mainstream voters. Many of those people not obsessed with this stuff the way we are realize something highly controversial was said by someone associated with Obama, but they're not sure exactly who it was who said what.

Once the Republican 527's and 501(c)4's get into the act, we'll see some witheringly nasty ads showing Wright's statements and Obama's reaction.
What is The Cost of Energy?
[ Parent ]

: Right. (none / 0) (#234)
by 0 politico on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:13:03 PM EST

There is a whole new audience out there that wan't really tune in until after Labor Day.
Remember, a minority of voters actually bother with primaries.

[ Parent ]

smear Meisters not even done with stage I yet (5.00 / 1) (#289)
by pluege on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:10:15 PM EST

Stage I: the smear meisters are only establishing Wright as the worst person on earth this side of Osama Bin Laden.

Stage II: They barely even begun to use the Wright set-up as reference and evidence to assassinate Obama's character - stage II.

Stage III: once Obama's character flaws, are established in stage II by his association with Wright lo these many years, they will then use Obama's character flaws as a filter in which to pass everything he has said / says, and did / does putting a putrid hue on everything about him.

The Wright factoid is in its very infancy in terms of damaging Obama.
.

[ Parent ]

not that simple. (5.00 / 4) (#90)
by corn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:30:28 PM EST

For the record I'm neither hot nor excited about this. My opinion of Obama as a result of this issue goes only to judgment - a guy with presidential ambition should have known better.

But to say this issue is about a dumb electorate is simplistic. People might fairly be put off by a candidate attending a church with a pointed agenda. I don't think it's as innocent as that either, but in the eyes of many people this matter is significant. If you want to wave it away as the fault of general stupidity, then where do you stop?

[ Parent ]

: Sounds like you don't know much about (none / 0) (#139)
by corn on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:49:03 PM EST

this matter.

[ Parent ]

x (5.00 / 1) (#287)
by CognitiveDissonance on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:07:53 PM EST

Actually, if you look at exit polls, half the dems DON'T support Obama.

[ Parent ]

Beg to differ (none / 0) (#42)
by Chimster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:03:27 PM EST

If nothing else, the marquee value and unifying perception of this ticket will propel them to the nomination. No one on Obama blogs will like this. They'll fight it. But they're wasting their time. This combo ticket will put a dem in the White House in 2008.

[ Parent ]

Women, who are 60% of the Dems (5.00 / 7) (#143)
by echinopsia on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:52:22 PM EST

are not going to be happy that once again the older, more experienced, more accomplished, harder-working woman has to step aside for the new guy.

Pick the group you want to p*ss off more. 60% or 20%.

Then add Hispanics to the 60%.

[ Parent ]

80% of 20% (5.00 / 1) (#189)
by echinopsia on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:34:17 PM EST

Is less than 55% of 60%.

Plus Hispanics.

Do the math.

[ Parent ]

: Now it's silly tit-for-tat (5.00 / 1) (#272)
by echinopsia on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:44:29 PM EST

Why? Because I proved you were wrong to think that Clinton's presumed loss of AA votes is more than offset by Obama's loss of women's votes?
If you make an easily rebutted statement, don't call it silly tit-for-tat when someone soundly rebuts it, then try to change the subject.

[ Parent ]

"Neither candidate can win (5.00 / 1) (#190)
by Chimster on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:34:20 PM EST

in November if those groups don't support them." This is exactly why the unity ticket idea will work. Supporters get their person. You need to look way ahead. We're in primary season now. The public's memory is short. Wounds heal over time. New scandals will arive. Heck, there may be stuff that makes the Wright incident look like a walk in the park.

A different VP would give access to a whole new vetting process. These two frontrunners are going through the vetting now. We don't need a newbie to start raking through the coals all over again.

[ Parent ]

But those two groups overlap (none / 0) (#232)
by Joan in VA on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:10:33 PM EST

which should be to her benefit.

[ Parent ]

Try this.. (5.00 / 2) (#197)
by waldenpond on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 02:41:46 PM EST

"Senator Obama, you previously characterized your running mate as a vicious liar who will do anything to win, why are you running on the same ticket?"

Here's Obama.... Clinton has stated that campaign supporters get overly passionate, I agree. Both campaigns have stumbled and we are stronger for it. We can use the talents and energy of both campaigns to defeat the Repubs in Nov. I have gotten to know Clinton extremely well throughout this campaign. She is experienced, she knows what this country needs, we agree on the issues and she has demonstrated she has the capacity to weather an incredibly rough campaign and media attacks. Everyone exaggerates, heck I exaggerated when I blah, blah, blah.

"Senator Clinton, you spent months making the argument that Senator Obama is an empty suit with untold skeletons in his closet. Why should the American people be comfortable with him when you aren't?"

Here's Clinton.... (her argument for Obama as VP fits better here) Obama might be inexperienced in the eyes of some (a fact I disagree with on some important issues), but he has developed one important skill.. learning how to run a tough campaign (woohoo.) Obama has a new energy and freshness to bring to politics. Together we can build a team to take this country in a new direction. The Repubs will attack my running mate on some issues that we are very familiar to us all. I have expressed my opinion on the matter and will not address it again. Some relationships are private no matter how much the Repubs would like to believe otherwise (referencing Bill.) I'm sure they will focus on personal attacks, but we will focus on the issues affecting the American people... blah, blah, blah.

Heck, if they can't spin this, neither one of them deserves to be President. If they can't let by-gones be by-gones and work with another Dem, nothing is going to get done.

[ Parent ]

Nope, Obama "Tonya Harding'd" Bill (5.00 / 1) (#279)
by Cream City on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:51:15 PM EST

at the least, losing a Dem ticket with Obama on it the number-one votegetter we've got. Bill can't get out there now for a ticket with an Obama on it, because Obama cut him off at the knees with the label of racism.

And I don't want to hear that Obama didn't say it. His campaign co-chair said it. The public recalls it, and rightly so, as Obama saying it. He didn't reject it -- and from the start in Iowa, he had Michelle making it about race, and then Oprah, and then AA members of the media as soon as Hillary Clinton won one, etc.

Nor do I want to see four or more years of Obama having all sorts of surrogates attack anyone in his path but letting him claim he's clean. He's not Teflon, and it sticks to him.

[ Parent ]

: That would seem to be the case (none / 0) (#282)
by MKS on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 04:02:20 PM EST

I do think, however, BTD is right--a unity ticket appears to be the only way the Dems have any chance of beating St. John the McCain.
And since the unity ticket seems improbable.....
McCain will do NOTHING as President. The Economy is bad? Well, guess what America, you're screwed. Iraq is bad, America is screwed there too. He looked so old with Nancy Reagan yesterday...
Get off my G-D grass! That should be St. John's campaign motto.

[ Parent ]

The easy answer (none / 0) (#238)
by Chisoxy on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 03:18:25 PM EST

to each of those questions is: Well half the country believes they are trustworthy/ready to be president, who am I to say otherwise? This ticket is representative of the will of the people.

[ Parent ]

Why We Need A Unity Ticket | 278 comments (278 topical)

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