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Obama's Potential Path To The Nomination | 208 comments (208 topical)
I get a sense from some Obama followers that (5.00 / 3) (#2)
by nellre on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:03:43 PM EST
I get a sense from some Obama followers that HRC does not have the right to beat their chosen man.
BTD hits on something important (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by andgarden on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:05:50 PM EST
They have very little left to throw at Hillary (now they're obsessed with photo ops), so they have to start attacking her voters (past and potential).

[ Parent ]
HRC getting negative coverage on (none / 0) (#6)
by oculus on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:07:16 PM EST
Huff Post for not saying yes to debate in NC.

[ Parent ]
Because that worked so well (5.00 / 6) (#14)
by andgarden on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:12:12 PM EST
for Hillary last time?

Side note: The Obama people really don't do the inevitability thing as well as Hillary did last year; they're just really unpleasant about it. People who are actually frontrunners shouldn't have to behave that way.

[ Parent ]

"Actually Frontruners" (5.00 / 6) (#22)
by BDB on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:17:32 PM EST
I think you've hit it on the head, Obama isn't the frontrunner, he just plays him on television.  The actual contest is essentially tied.  Which is why Obama is engaging in negative personal attacks and other things that he would never do if he really did have the nomination all sowed up, e.g. if Hillary really couldn't win.  

When it comes to politicians, I'm a believer in actions and not words.  Obama and his supporters say there's no way for Hillary to win, but their actions - including the need to scream that she must get out NOW - tell a very different story,

[ Parent ]

You wanna talk about unpleasant? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
by litigatormom on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:49:58 PM EST
Read this:

(CNN) -- Senior Clinton advisers blasted Sen. Barack Obama's campaign Monday after a major Obama supporter in Iowa compared Bill Clinton unfavorably to Joe McCarthy and referenced the blue dress at the heart of the impeachment scandal.

"When Joe McCarthy questioned others' patriotism, McCarthy (1) actually believed, at least aparently, the questions were genuine, and (2) he did so in order to build up, not tear down, his own party, the GOP," wrote Gordon Fischer, a former chair of the Iowa Democratic Party, wrote on his blog. "Bill Clinton cannot possibly seriously believe Obama is not a patriot, and cannot possibly be said to be helping -- instead he is hurting -- his own party. B. Clinton should never be forgiven. Period. This is a stain on his legacy, much worse, much deeper, than the one on Monica's blue dress."

So it was okay to compare Bill Clinton to Joe McCarthy because Joe McCarthy was sincere about his McCarthyism, and Bill Clinton got a blow job.

[ Parent ]

lol, I thought everyone was sick of over (none / 0) (#12)
by Teresa on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:10:47 PM EST
twenty debates (imagine Olbermann's voice).

(Did she really turn that one down?)

[ Parent ]

Heh (none / 0) (#28)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:20:37 PM EST


[ Parent ]
well they attacked Carville today (none / 0) (#173)
by dotcommodity on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:58:25 PM EST
someone who is not part of her campaign, right?

Before they start on us voters they'll still have many possible remarks by hundreds of bystanders to spin into a frenzy till August...

[ Parent ]

Do you? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:20:02 PM EST
Well, I think you are projecting your hostilities there.

[ Parent ]
if the Wright flap hadn't blown up (5.00 / 1) (#91)
by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:57:56 PM EST
and if pigs flew you would have to shoot down your bacon.
also, you are reading the Wright thing far to narrowly.  its about racism, yes.  but its about a lot more than that.
its about judgement and honesty and, possibly most importantly, its about religion.

[ Parent ]
I really take exception (5.00 / 4) (#121)
by hookfan on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:19:38 PM EST
to people calling Hillary supporters racist when they take exception to anybody saying publicly g-d America. That type of anti-patriotic smear of a whole nation, including those who have actively opposed many actions of our government is inexcusable. It also overlooks the many good things this nation has done, and those who have promoted it.
  Secondly, I'm tiring of black "exceptionalism" by continuously playing the victim card. Part of my family is Chinese-American. Another part is Jewish-American. Another part is Native-American. All have suffered in their American experience. Don't lecture me about racism. Don't lecture me about suffering. Don't lecture me about supporting AntiAmerican religious smears.

[ Parent ]
but he is right about one thing (none / 0) (#94)
by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:03:14 PM EST
I am salivating

[ Parent ]
Where is that (none / 0) (#147)
by PlayInPeoria on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:40:11 PM EST
UNITY theme? We sure need it after that!

[ Parent ]
Did you listen to Obama's speech? (none / 0) (#170)
by Manuel on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:55:46 PM EST
He rejected a lot/most of this framing.  Or do you think he agrees with you and he is just another politician saying things he doesn't really believe.

[ Parent ]
Who does Hillary pray with? (none / 0) (#188)
by Bob In Pacifica on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:10:16 PM EST
The Hillary people here, presumably "liberal," don't seem to be able to address H. Clinton's prayer partners.

She spent eight years in Washington praying in a sex-segregated circle of wives of the rich and powerful, like the wife of a guy who's a union-buster in Christian kind of way. Does that mean that Clinton's time on the board of Walmart or the use of anti-union folks in her campaign may actually be reflective of some of those prayers? "God, don't let them organize!"

Or maybe she really believes that there needs to be a Constitutional Amendment about flag-burning. I'm sure that's something that Jeralyn can get behind.

Or maybe Clinton's sponsorship of that dreadful religious freedom in the workplace act is true and honest to her beliefs. She really wants to give a pharmacist the right to refuse to give women birth control if it offends his beliefs.

I wonder what it is about Clinton that attracts people who claim to be liberal. Is it because she's a woman? Is it because she's not a black man?

[ Parent ]

please give me a link on your claim (none / 0) (#192)
by MarkL on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:12:05 PM EST
about pharmacists.
Thanks.

[ Parent ]
Do you mean this bill which (none / 0) (#202)
by MarkL on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:20:35 PM EST
John Kerry co-sponsored and Teddy Kennedy supports?
link

[ Parent ]
"rely on dumbed down voters" (5.00 / 1) (#36)
by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:24:21 PM EST
please -PLEASE- keep this up.
pretty please?

[ Parent ]
Then explain (none / 0) (#193)
by Bob In Pacifica on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:12:21 PM EST
sex-segregated prayer groups to me. I'm not smart enough to understand it. Why did Hillary pray in a circle of reactionary women? I can't figure this out.

[ Parent ]
Didn't you bring this up (none / 0) (#209)
by waldenpond on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:28:00 PM EST
the other day?  I believe this was addressed.

[ Parent ]
Huh? (5.00 / 4) (#119)
by Athena on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:17:37 PM EST
What "complexity?"  This could not be more simple.  Obama kept a huge electoral liability hidden from primary voters for more than a year, with the slavish cooperation of the press.

How many voters would have wanted to evaluate Obama as a nominee knowing about the Wright issue?  Many I would dare guess.  But they didn't get that chance.

The late-breaking Wright issue will now spell doom for the general; the press kept it hidden until Obama had won enough primaries with under-informed voters.

[ Parent ]

I am a supporter of Hillary and (5.00 / 1) (#196)
by dotcommodity on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:15:07 PM EST
I found Wright very reassuring.

My worry has been that Obama is too bipartisan and nice to Republicans: even floating the idea of a Republican VP, for instance, and too loose about who decides what his administration will enact (per his debates).

But Wright told me that beneath it all Obama really is a progressive, so that makes him much more attractive, and I'd support him in the GE, no problem.

I still prefer Hillary's votes on eco issues, and prefer her energy plan which is exceedingly clever in simply forcing a huge change in how all businesses report risk - to include carbon risk as a fiduciary responsibilty to shareholders, opening up direct consumer control over CO2 levels for the first time.

(It will force oil companies to drill for geothermal power instead, and force mountaintop removers to put up turbines instead.)

I'm still a climate voter, but Wright is on the right side. And I thought Obama's subsequent speech was outstanding, and not just 'about race'.

[ Parent ]

Taking into account (none / 0) (#17)
by Edgar08 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:14:44 PM EST
The complexity of it still doesn't bode well for Obama.

But that's off topic.


[ Parent ]

Well, (none / 0) (#19)
by andgarden on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:15:43 PM EST
I can't speak for others, but I'm personally on the record saying that what Obama's Reverend has no bearing on what I think of him. I think the Wright thing WILL pose trouble in the fall, however, because voters are shallow and stupid.

[ Parent ]
Wright was on Obama's advisory (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:19:17 PM EST
committee while spewing hatred directly at Hillary from the pulpit.  He was not directly denounced by Obama for having done that.

That fact has bearing on what I think of Obama.  The rest, yes, simply goes to the electability problem.  Still a huge issue in that realm.

[ Parent ]

And Obama Never (5.00 / 5) (#135)
by BDB on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:25:53 PM EST
Feared being raped on a date or had to worry about the boss calling him "hon" and putting his hand on his thigh under a conference room table.

I actually have little problem with Wright himself, I don't much care what any minister thinks, but nobody wins these "I'm more oppressed than you" contests. But that's essentially what Wright was doing and in so doing, whether intentional or not, he was denigrating the struggles women, including African American women, have gone through.  The truth is that it's not easy being a woman of any color or a black man (or other man of color) in our society.  I'm sure there have been many times when Barack and Hillary have been the smartest person in the room and treated as if they were the dumbest because of his skin and her sex.  Wright, however, set out to make his point in the most divisive way possible.  

Again, I don't care because I don't care what Wright thinks about anything, but I do understand why others are so offended.

[ Parent ]

She earned a National Merit Scholarship (none / 0) (#205)
by echinopsia on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:21:37 PM EST
And that's why she went to Wellesley. Would her father have sent her there? Who knows? but she earned it. All by herself.

She went all the way through law school and graduated as a single woman, she did not marry Bill and follow him to Ark., she turned down his proposals for months. He was not so sure she should follow him, since she was already a rising star and could have been senator or governor. After they married she was the one who made more money and supported the family until he became president.

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but you are sadly bereft of the facts of her life and her marriage.

There are over 60 books out there about her. Read one.

[ Parent ]

What was the legitimate point that (5.00 / 4) (#179)
by litigatormom on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:03:49 PM EST
Rev. Wright was making when he said that Hillary wasn't a poor black man, or that she'd never been called a n***?  Has she ever said she was, or had been?  

Rev. Wright also said that, because she was not black,  Hillary had never had to work twice as hard as a white man to show that she was qualified. Rev. Wright has apparently never heard of sexism.  You don't have to debate whether racism is worse than sexism to know that both African-Americans AND women have to work twice as hard as white men in the same profession to get ahead.  The evils of racism can be understood without minimizing the evils of sexism.

BTW, you don't have to threaten physical violence, or say that someone is worthless or unfit to live, to someone in order to be speaking hate. You can speak hate by minimizing or marginalizing individuals or groups, by making derogatory comments about them, by doing or saying any number of things.

[ Parent ]

Have you seen the sermon? (5.00 / 3) (#189)
by dianem on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:10:40 PM EST
I challenge you to watch it and then tell me that it's not hate speech. Oddly, the thing that bothered me the most was fairly innocuous. He said that Clinton had never experienced the pain of being called a "n***r".  This seems ironic to me, given that Hillary Clinton has been called "bch and "c**t" for over a decade, plus a long list of other insults. Those don't count to Wright. Apparently it's only hurtful to insult somebody if you use racially pejorative words, not gender based insults.

[ Parent ]
Oh, Please. (5.00 / 1) (#191)
by AmyinSC on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:11:20 PM EST
Clinton did not grow up being privileged. Her family did not have money. She worked hard for everything she got.  She put HERSELF through law school.  Stop trying to diminish her accomplishments.

Wright gave his speech in December.  HOW does that relate to Ferraro and her comments???  Uh, yeah.  It doesn't.

Women in this culture do NOT have it easy, whether they are poor or privileged.  Any woman can be assaulted in this country and watch as their attackers, if convicted, get lesser sentences thans omeone who robs a company; most women are paid less than men for the same work; most women have to watch as less qualified men get positions for which they are overqualified; most women have to put up with insensitive, boorish, often sexist, comments every single day.

Wright's sermon WAS hate speech, plain and simple.  Its intent was clearly to incite and antagonize.  

That kind of speech has no place in a church - period.

[ Parent ]

I'm happy to acknowledge (none / 0) (#64)
by badger on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:44:24 PM EST
the role of black churches and black ministers.

I just didn't support Obama before I ever heard of Rev. Wright, Rev. Wright has done nothing to change my mind one way or the other, but I think the Rev. is a serious political liability for Obama that Obama hasn't dealt with very effectively.

Whether I think the Reverend's statements were justified, misquoted, or whatever has nothing to do with whether he's a political liability.

[ Parent ]

Neither did Obama! (none / 0) (#174)
by Manuel on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:58:25 PM EST


[ Parent ]
I'm sorry. If I were going to a church in which (5.00 / 2) (#56)
by derridog on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:40:03 PM EST
the pastor made shockingly denigrating comments about blacks, gays or women, I would not come back a second time, much less for 20 years.  I would certainly not have that person as a mentor, have him baptize my child and advise me in my campaign for ANYTHING.   Racism is the same no matter who is spouting it.  

[ Parent ]
Don't forget (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by cmugirl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:48:54 PM EST
When talking about Hillary and Bill, he was (pardon the term) "dry humping" the pulpit.  Never saw anything like that in any church I've gone to.

[ Parent ]
and said "dirty ride"... yea, I guess (none / 0) (#177)
by DandyTIger on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:59:44 PM EST
it's "new religion" just like "new politics". Well, I'm going to be doing a "new vote". Namely, no.

[ Parent ]
Dry humping the pulpit? (none / 0) (#182)
by litigatormom on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:06:23 PM EST
What does that mean?  And did he actually use those words?

[ Parent ]
Yes (none / 0) (#195)
by Grey on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:13:14 PM EST
And, while he did that, he said "Bill was riding dirty.  He did us like he did Monica."

The video of that was in the original FOX News story about the IRS investigation.  I'm sure it's in YouTube still.

Yup.  Here it is.


[ Parent ]

first comment I've seen from you (none / 0) (#39)
by jes on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:28:23 PM EST
that I strongly disagree with. On the Wright issue, I do not believe the voters are shallow and stupid.

[ Parent ]
Transferring that reaction (none / 0) (#42)
by andgarden on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:31:04 PM EST
to the way you feel about Obama is pretty shallow and stupid, in my opinion.

[ Parent ]
ah. I should have read more carefully. (none / 0) (#63)
by jes on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:44:13 PM EST
Some will directly make the transference - those are shallow and stupid. Those who were willing to listen to the speech and find it lacking are not, I think, making that transferrence. And those whho look a bit further into Black Liberation Theology, may futher find the arguments valid or invalid.

[ Parent ]
I am much more interested to see that (none / 0) (#35)
by MarkL on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:23:52 PM EST
Obama has totally run out of positive reasons to vote for him---no surprise, consider how little he has done. What can he say. "Hillary went to Bosnia.. um, me too!!"? LOL

[ Parent ]
I thought he was emphasizing she (none / 0) (#54)
by oculus on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:38:46 PM EST
went, but it was a tourist trip.

[ Parent ]
She wasn't wounded or captured (none / 0) (#67)
by badger on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:47:13 PM EST
so it doesn't count.

If ever there was an argument in favor of McCain ...

[ Parent ]

She has no admitted she lied, (none / 0) (#175)
by fuzzyone on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:58:42 PM EST
I mean "misspoke" so you may want to drop this one.

[ Parent ]
Call me "Goofy" (none / 0) (#87)
by zyx on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 05:55:27 PM EST
I consider myself very liberal.

I consider myself to, uh, not be a racist.

But the Wright business actually does bother me.  I suspect it has to do with underlying churchgoing and religious attitudes, to some extent.

I don't appreciate being thought that I'm some kind of dumb cluck for not thinking Wright and the "black church" are so different from my own cultural reference that what I see as hate speech is to be condoned.

[ Parent ]

She had the right (none / 0) (#141)
by magster on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:32:29 PM EST
and blew it.  The question is whether she has a right to help McCain beat Obama.

[ Parent ]
Wright's sermon unspliced (none / 0) (#166)
by 1jane on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:54:13 PM EST
It doesn't take much effort to find several of Wright's sermons on line instead of listening to a video clip. I watched most of the sermon and others too. Wright's words are taken totally out of context and are being used skillfully to exploit hatred; but what else is new in this dirty campaign season? Obama has stated on several campaign stops that the two people he admires most are Nelson Mandela and the Dali Lamma. Very different men and very different styles than Wright's style. I like to make up my mind based on as much information I can find, not on a video clip.

[ Parent ]
Ferraro's and Bill Clinton's comments (none / 0) (#181)
by Manuel on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 07:06:16 PM EST
were quoted out of context too.  It's kind of late to put the genie back in the bottle.  That's the nature of politics and media in our culture.  The question is how can we transcend it?  I am afraid I don't have an answer.  Pointing fingers and acting hurt doesn't work, however.  Perhaps Obama is right.  Not this time.

[ Parent ]

Obama's Potential Path To The Nomination | 208 comments (208 topical)

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