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See, none of this upsets me at all (5.00 / 2) (#1)
by andgarden on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:45:29 PM EST
but I'm not one of those reflexive "good government" types that Obama seems to attract.

I expect and accept a certain amount of logrolling and unfairness in politics. Obama's fainthearted friends just can't stand it. Of course, they'll defend him no matter what, so this will be ignored. It deserves to be ignored, but not for the reason it will be.

I agree. This really doesn't upset me. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by lilburro on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:27:23 PM EST
Although I knew about the State Senate 7th year thing already.  Obviously it belies his campaign image, but I didn't believe his campaign image.  Soo...my questions are:  what can we expect from Obama in the White House?  His campaign has basically said "now don't take us too literally."  So what will his presidency be like?  What will Obama ver. 7.0 look like?  

Hillary needs to come up with a series of very substantive questions for Obama in April.  Attacks of this nature will not get her far.

[ Parent ]

I doubt if we will find out (5.00 / 5) (#30)
by Boston Boomer on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:56:18 PM EST
what Obama will be like in the White House.  He will never be President.  I just hope the Democrats don't hand him the nomination, because some of us peons out here might not survive another four years of Republican rule.


[ Parent ]
I agree... (none / 0) (#76)
by tsteels2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:24:23 AM EST
I thought Senator Obama was a long shot anyway.  Frankly I'm surprised he is doing so well.  In the end though, I think the superdelegates are going to pick Senator "Been There, Done That" Clinton over Senator "Give the New/Not So New Guy" Obama a chance.

Either way, I'm still a Green Party guy who is trying to run Cynthia McKinney out the party!  :)


[ Parent ]

Ooops! (none / 0) (#78)
by tsteels2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:25:40 AM EST
My previous comment should read:

In the end though, I think the superdelegates are going to pick Senator "Been There, Done That" Clinton over Senator "Give the New/Not So New Guy a Chance" Obama.

[ Parent ]

I do have a problem (5.00 / 9) (#35)
by standingup on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:06:26 PM EST
if there are too many pieces of legislation that Obama touts as his great accomplishments which we find out are like the following:

Surprisingly, one such reluctant Obama supporter is state Rep. Monique Davis, D-Chicago. A 17-year veteran legislator, Davis sponsored a pair of significant bills -- one designed to track incidents of racial profiling, and another that mandates the taping of police interrogations in murder cases -- that were central to Obama's campaign platform.

Though she worked closely with Obama to pass the bills into law, and says she toiled to keep the bills alive before he became their Senate sponsor, Davis claims her efforts were largely ignored.

"I was snubbed," says Davis, who endorsed Hynes in the primary though she belongs to the same church as Obama on Chicago's South Side. "I felt he was shutting me out of history."

This is from the original article Spivak wrote March 25, 2004 when he was still reporting for the Illinois Times.

Aren't these two of the bills that we hear Obama use repeatedly as an example of some of his best legislative accomplishments while he was in the IL State Senate?  I am not saying that he did not do anything to get these passed but I would like to know more about how much was his own effort and how much was the equivalent of an assist from Jones to give him a boost.  

[ Parent ]

THe (5.00 / 1) (#81)
by tek on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:31:02 AM EST
snubbed part rings true for me.  I am one of the great Obama's constituents.  Anytime I wrote him about any issue or question I got a very arrogant answer months after the contact.  He always evaded the issue and one got a feeling that he found it highly annoying to have to deal with the plebians--even though I'm sure his staff handled all of it.  

I know all of my Democratic friends had the same experience so I was shocked that most of them jumped on his bandwagon when Gore did not run.

[ Parent ]

the playing of politics doesn't bother me (5.00 / 11) (#17)
by TheRefugee on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:35:40 PM EST
the hypocrisy of claiming that "I'm a new, better kind of politician" is what bothers me.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#21)
by andgarden on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:38:06 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Digging pretty deep for fools gold (none / 0) (#27)
by AdrianLesher on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:51:31 PM EST
Wonkette took down the self-promoting (for the author) aspect of this article nicely here.

A more flattering view of this part of Obama's history, linked to by Wonkette, is here.

Even politicians who want to change things have to have a path to power. For any reformist president to succeed, that president will need practical political skills.

Obama critics wish they could pin Obama between a rock and a hard place. They would like to be able to aasert that either he's too nice to stand up to the Republicans, or he's too mean to be real about the type of politician he wants to be. Heads we win, tails we use.

Everytime Obama slips loose of their clever traps, the Clintonites express outrage.

[ Parent ]

lol (5.00 / 7) (#32)
by TheRefugee on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:58:28 PM EST
I'm sure you haven't been one of the Obama supporters finding fault with every single thing the Clinton's have ever done.  

Obama needs a path to power so misrepresenting his abilities and achievements is ok, even though he is a "new type of politician" who doesn't play the lobbyist game (he does or else why would he be accepting hundreds of thousands in donations from Wall Street (just like Clinton)).  You have a double standard, for Obama his Path to Power is legitimate, while Clinton's is Scorched Earth.

Hillary isn't trying to pretend she isn't a politician.  Obama is pretending to be an everyman who just happens to have "fallen" into politics.  If that isn't hypocritical then I guess I'm going to have to ask Webster to redefine the term.

[ Parent ]

Thanks for nothing (5.00 / 5) (#80)
by ChrisO on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:30:56 AM EST
Can I have back the time I just wasted following your links? The Wonkette piece consists of the author repeating elements of Spivak's article, followed by a snarky comment that adds absolutely no substance. The I went to the Vanity Fair article, wading through the glowing ass kissing we have come to expect from the media. It offers some support for the notion that Obama was instrumental in passing the death penalty bill, but that's all (although I have read different opinions from an Illinois anti-death penalty activist.)Seven pages of ass kissing, and a couple of paragraphs on the death penaly bill. Thanks.

I was amused, however, by this from Vanity Fair: "It has become all but impossible to mention Obama without invoking the name of his fellow Illinoisan Abraham Lincoln" Gee, could that be because his starry-eyed supporters continually compare him to Lincoln? That constant copmparison is particularly annoying to me. He's a Senator in the middle of an undistinguished first term, and he's already Abraham Lincoln with the moral courage of Martin Luther King. Any wonder why so many Dems are sick of this guy?

[ Parent ]

The only (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by tek on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:45:07 AM EST
thing I find disturbing about this is that it lumps Hillary in with Obama and I don't believe she's cut from the same cloth.  We know that Hillary has true liberal values and is competent to restore the country to a democratic condition.  As far as taking on the corporations, people can raise some valid issues with Bill's administration regarding his relationship with corporations, (he didn't insist that the oil drillers pay their dues to the public) but he was the first president in modern times to rein in the corporate wealthy.

I think the disconnect with Hillary is among people too young to remember Bill's campaigns.  I can still remember watching both of them in interviews. I had given up on the government because we'd suffered through two terms of Reagan and one of Bush I and it looked at the time like the Democrats just couldn't come up with a winning candidate.  Then I started to see the Clintons on tv.  I was blown away.  I happened to be studying the Gilded Age in graduate school at the time and I thought, these people really get it.  They know what needs to be done.  

I really thought Hillary could have been the candidate, but the time wasn't right for a woman.  She was no ordinary First Lady.  All of us watching her in the 90s knew she was presidential material.  I think she's more capable even than Bill because she isn't plagued with carnal addictions that it seems the majority of male politicians can't keep under control.

As far as the Far Left's grievance with Bill being "DLC" or too moderate, it's a shame they don't realize that's what made him electable.  The Democrats had been running people who were just too far left of the American mainstream to either get elected or keep office--look what happened to Jimmy Carter.  Right now, we are at a time when we desperately need a president who is center because the very serious problems in this country affect Americans of every political persuasion.  The Right and the Far Left bucked against Bill Clinton during the campaign, but after he took office he was hugely popular.  At the end of his administration he had poll number up in the 70s and he'd been impeached!  

I agree with Richardson and all the "progressive" bloggers that Democrats should get behind one candidate:  Go Hillary!

[ Parent ]

KISS, not the band (5.00 / 1) (#105)
by TheRefugee on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:51:44 AM EST
is Obama's campaign.  Keep it simple stupid.  Obama's draw is that he doesn't have the baggage that a longtime DC player has.  Because of that it is easy for people who don't really understand politics to think that Obama, being new and spouting change, can actually walk into the WH and demand change....and get it.  

It isn't an age thing it is a question of what you look for in a candidate.  Hillary supporters are looking at a broader picture, drawing off of years of public record to make a fair assessment of Hillary's quality and qualification.  

Obama supporters are taking the narrow view...new and different, excellent motivator and speaker...he has to be good.  When ever anything bad comes up concerning Obama they don't go digging for the truth, they attack.  They don't know Obama's past anymore than we do because there isn't that much public record...what is there is finally starting to come to light and we're finding that the telegenic Obama might just be telegenic and no more.

You are dead on about the fact that Hillary supporters are comfortable with Hillary because of her and Bill being known.  What I think the Obama supporters continually overlook is that there is no perfect candidate.  That every candidate has made mistakes, has baggage.  That they are willing to ignore or overlook Obama's baggage is a mistake, either now or in the GE.  

[ Parent ]

Hillary's Corporate Ties (none / 0) (#107)
by AdrianLesher on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:55:11 AM EST
I find it amazing that Clintonites are oblivious to Clinton's close corporate ties, baldly exemplified by the campaign being run by Burson Marsteller head Mark Penn.

The constant refrain of the Clinton people is either that Obama is too far left or too far right. Both can't be right, and the evidence of Obama's life points to him being a person steeped in values of tolerance and progressive values.

Compared to Republicans, Clinton does have more liberal values. However, it is no accident that she is so popular among more conservative democrats like Ferraro and Bayh. She hasn't fully cut her ties from her Goldwater years.

[ Parent ]

is this supposed to be funny? (none / 0) (#109)
by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:58:11 AM EST


[ Parent ]
So (none / 0) (#77)
by tek on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:25:04 AM EST
then why do the Obama people hurl accusations against Hillary of political machinations if the Obama people think anything he does to get ahead is okay?  One of the disturbing aspects of the whole Obama phenomenon.

[ Parent ]
Because Senator Obama moved them... (5.00 / 2) (#82)
by tsteels2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:31:18 AM EST
He has galvanized a part of the electorate that hasn't really been active in politics.  And they WILL NOT leave him out to dry.  They will defend him  BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY (figuratively speaking).  That's why I really feel that he needs to call Senator Clinton, talk things out, he take the VP, and move forward.  I'll stop supporting the Green Party to vote for the Clinton/Obama ticket.  One thing that being a VP will do for Obama is allow the Clinton Machine to defend him while he's being vetted some more.  And that guy's still young-ish.  Can't the campaigns see this?


[ Parent ]
Chris Civilla had a good point (5.00 / 3) (#96)
by ChrisO on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:30:31 AM EST
when he said "Two years ago he was a state senator, and now he's too good to be Vice President?"  He also pointed out, in response to the characterizations of Obama as "not a politician", "this is a guy who has run for election every two years for the last 12 years."

[ Parent ]
heh (5.00 / 2) (#116)
by echinopsia on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:53:27 AM EST
"this is a guy who has run for election every two years for the last 12 years."

Makes you wonder how he'd ever manage to settle down to VP long enough to do the job.

"Two years and out" is not a sign of a steady worker.

[ Parent ]

I (none / 0) (#87)
by tek on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:47:49 AM EST
like your idea!

[ Parent ]
The best and logical way for resolution... (none / 0) (#93)
by tsteels2 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:06:29 AM EST
IMHO!  Senator Obama has nothing to lose and everything to gain by being the VP.  I used to be on the Obama Train for President.  But his newness and the associated "associations" are too much for a less experienced candidate to weather.  He's trying to fight it out but it's not going to work to his advantage this election cycle regardless of his lead in pledged delegates and popular vote.

He still makes history by being the first black VP candidate.  And if Senator Clinton wins the presidency, he gets "double historic" billing.

The only caveat is the Ol' Bill stays away if Obama is VP.  :)


[ Parent ]

I dont believe he will (none / 0) (#108)
by Capt Howdy on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:56:35 AM EST
ever accept VP.
he will say it would be a betrayal of his supporters.
but that will be an excuse.

[ Parent ]
The question soon may be, will he have (none / 0) (#119)
by nycstray on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:02:04 PM EST
too much baggage for the VP slot?

Seems that is why many don't want Clinton on the ticket as VP, she'd bring too much baggage to Obama's campaign . . .

I almost wonder if he would do better in the future if he wasn't VP (I originally supported the idea). If he stays in the Senate and continues to gain experience, along with getting re-elected, he may be good to go in the future without having an association with the "Clinton Machine". He would be able to run on his own platform, experience and identity.

[ Parent ]

I think (none / 0) (#123)
by cmugirl on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 02:48:36 PM EST
Obama wouldn't want HRC as the VP because she would outshine him and challenge him.

[ Parent ]
But I'm sure Obama doesn't.... (none / 0) (#112)
by Maria Garcia on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:11:20 AM EST
...the one thing that strikes me as totally authentic about him is his ego.

[ Parent ]

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