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This is hardly about NAFTA. (5.00 / 3) (#2)
by ajain on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:31:08 AM EST
I'm sorry, are you saying it is good that Obama was saying one thing to American electorate and another to a foreign government?


That's politics (none / 0) (#4)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:34:05 AM EST
I am not upset about it.

[ Parent ]
It is politics (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by ajain on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:36:10 AM EST
But, isnt it early to do this crap? I mean he isnt even the Democratic nominee yet.

[ Parent ]
Means justify end? (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by sarahfdavis on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:36:51 AM EST
When is throwing another dem under the bus or lying 'good' politics?  When do politcs become 'bad'?

[ Parent ]
Is lying good politcs? (none / 0) (#17)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:39:19 AM EST
Um, yes?

[ Parent ]
Sometimes... (none / 0) (#138)
by joc on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:12:22 PM EST
Being caught in a lie, however, is not.

This could be especially bad for a candidate like Obama, whose campaign is focused on himself more than his policies. People may wonder if he's just telling them what they want to hear, rather than what he'll really do as President.  And if people begin to question whether or not they can trust what he is telling them, it's going to cut deep into his support, since much of it is based on personal connection to Obama.

Will the media play up the story, or will they let it pass by? We will probably know by Sunday morning which it's going to be. Because, if I was the Clinton campaign, this is what I would be trying to get everyone to talk about before the Tuesday elections (and the sooner the better).

The question is, who will bite?


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The Repubs will agree come (none / 0) (#163)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 04:09:52 PM EST
October.

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No, Not Good (none / 0) (#171)
by cal1942 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 05:33:18 PM EST
Obama's attacks on Clinton concerning NAFTA along with his support of NAFTA (the Goolsbee, Cutler, Liebman economic team should have been cited by the Clinton campaign)are about as underhanded as a campiagn can get.  

That's the GOP tactic of accusing your opponent of doing what you're doing.

Filth.

The Bush 2000 campaign was more forthcoming than Obama's.

And by the way, if you lived in a midwestern industrial state you might have a better idea of why this tactic is particularly disgusting.

In many ways the biggest joke is on those Obama supporters who've projected just the opposite.

[ Parent ]

BTD, you maybe be right, (5.00 / 4) (#34)
by Practically Lactating on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:45:51 AM EST
but I think the average American voter might mistakenly believe that "words matter" and won't take kindly to this revelation.

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I dont think this is minor. (5.00 / 2) (#42)
by ajain on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:59:29 AM EST
 If they can prove this stuff, then his credibility is gone. We are supposed to trust the guy. And lets not foget he accused Hillary Clinton of being willing to say/do anything to win elections.

[ Parent ]
its the beginning (none / 0) (#100)
by thereyougo on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:16:16 PM EST
of the dismantling of the message of change from Obama, that has been caught.He's starting to feel the heat instead of the after glow of his 'words'

Sounds like same old same old.

[ Parent ]

Certainly Is (none / 0) (#175)
by cal1942 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:18:00 PM EST
It's been clear from the start of this campaign to many of us that from a policy standpoint, Obama represented the "status quo" on steroids.

[ Parent ]
Then (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by tek on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:29:32 AM EST
you are exactly like Karl Rove and the neoCons.  Good politics is when you tell the truth to the American people as Hillary Clinton did, but you probably think it's good politics for Obama to dictate that Hillary's experience as First Lady doesn't count because she wasn't a public official and then turn around and hammer her over every policy that HER HUSBAND supported.  If I'm, not mistaken, it's called hypocrisy.

Therefore, you have no room to criticize anything the Republicans do either to the American People or to Democrats.  Was it "good politics" when Dubya told Americans one story about Iraq and then we later learned that he had lied to go to war?  

You demonstrate the most disturbing characteristic of Obama and his followers.  They are exactly like the neoCons.  If we have another liar in the WH, how are Americans supposed to ever know what diabolical thing is taking place in secret?  If you believe that Obama's two-faced behavior is "good politics" for the campaign and he'll have integrity and care about democracy once he's in office, you're in for a rude, damaging awakening.

[ Parent ]

BTD (5.00 / 3) (#68)
by Kathy on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:33:47 AM EST
my usual refrain: Why?

Why is he reassuring the Canadian government that he will protect NAFTA?  Yes, politics is politics, but surely Canadian government officials know this.  Why did Obama feel the need to reach out to them via a surrogate and reassure them (in what he thought would remain a private call) that he would protect NAFTA?

Is this just more of Obama trying to have it both ways.  Tell Ohio NAFTA will be abolished if it's not changed, tell Canada don't worry, I'll protect NAFTA.  It begs the question: was he lying then or is he lying now?  And why lie to voters, then turn around and assure a foreign country that he was just, in fact, lying?

What does it accomplish?

As for political ramifications, I don't think your argument that it doesn't matter will hold up.  Just yesterday, Jeralyn posted a poll that pointed out that Obama lying about Clinton's NAFTA record was the reason behind some people moving toward Obama.  All politics is local.  Until you call Canada.

[ Parent ]

Maybe he is reaching across the (5.00 / 1) (#85)
by oculus on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:55:36 AM EST
aisle to voters in Canada?

[ Parent ]
Was Austin Goolsbee officially (none / 0) (#89)
by Molly Bloom on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:59:44 AM EST
speaking on behalf of the campaign or was he off on his own saying what he hopes to be true? That is not clear from anything I have read. Goolsbee  is a Chicago School economist and clearly favors NAFTA.  

One of my complaints about Obama is he seems to have a lot of Chicago school of  economics advisors. As I understand it, they are hard core Freidmonists and Milton was a laissez a fair fundamentalist. Meaning they adamantly oppose regulation of any sort as an interference with the "magic of the marketplace".

Does anyone know if Obama has any Keynesian advisors?

"Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
[ Parent ]

NAFTA... (none / 0) (#172)
by Rainsong on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 05:44:18 PM EST
[blockquote]...a lot of Chicago school of  economics advisors. As I understand it, they are hard core Freidmonists and Milton was a laissez a fair fundamentalist. Meaning they adamantly oppose regulation of any sort as an interference with the "magic of the marketplace".[/blockquote]

That would explain the lack of industry regulation in Obama's health care plan.

Clinton (& Edwards etc) the mandate works on both consumers AND industry (and other stakeholders).
It includes industry mandates to stop customer discrimination, forcing compliance with standards etc.

Obama's plan uses words like "encourage" industry to play nice, use "voluntary" mechanisms etc. All optional.  His subsidies are just corporate welfare, more people get covered sure, but they get the same crap coverage everybody else is already pissed about, and the govt subisidies, in effect, flow through to the HMO.

HMOs have maxed out the market in the USA, a 'saturated market', they are keen to expand to overseas markets. Canada might look good I guess for a new hunting ground?

As for NAFTA, Canada used ot be politically split on it, their current govt is conservative isn't it?

[ Parent ]

No Keynesians (none / 0) (#176)
by cal1942 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:30:12 PM EST
"Does anyone know if Obama has any Keynesian advisors?

No. None Nada.

The principals are David Cutler, Austen Goolsbee and Jeffrey Liebmnan.

Free market, free traders one and all.

And that's been the biggest clue to Obama's perfidious campaign from the start.

This is what's behind his remarks about Social Security (Jeffrey Liebman, SS privatization supporter), his tepid response ($500 tax credit) to the mortgage crisis, his lame (tax cuts) initial response to recession countermeasures and his failure to provide a government run health insurance option (David Cutler, wants health care industry profits as high as possible) unlike Edwards and Clinton.

If he is nominated and elected it will be up to the Democratic leadership in Congress to propose real progressive legislation.  It won't come from Obama.

[ Parent ]

The GE. The GE. (none / 0) (#24)
by liminal on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:41:00 AM EST
This could really hurt him in the general, even if it has little impact in the primary.  Maybe it won't; I don't know - but if he's been lying in Ohio and the story continues, to build, he can write it off in the general.  He needs those blue collar workers to turn out in order to win.  

[ Parent ]
Nah (none / 0) (#28)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 10:42:04 AM EST
Just a minor skirmish.

[ Parent ]
Removes an edge (none / 0) (#47)
by Socraticsilence on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:07:04 AM EST
It might remove an edge with some people, but I doubt it will kill him, I mean its not like McCain is pro-Union, heck his remarks on Airline Pilots alone will destroy him there (basically believes that they should pay the government back if they got militray flight training, something).

[ Parent ]
Narrative. (5.00 / 2) (#62)
by liminal on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 11:26:42 AM EST
It undermines his narrative.  There was an interesting story about Obama precinct captain training in Texas on NPR this morning.  The enthusiasm among the volunteers was almost infectious; then the volunteers broke out to talk about how to persuade people to vote for Obama.  One woman told her "story" about how she worked in the Peace Corps for ten years, but then fell into cynicism, until she "heard his words" and "saw his face."  It reminds me of that SacBee article: Obama campaign volunteers were encouraged NOT to discuss issues, but to discuss what were essentially revelation stories.  

So how does this sort of story play into that narrative?  It undermines it.  Maybe he can address it satisfactorily.  I wish that - instead - he had taken a smarter stand on NAFTA, rather than pandering outright.  I mean - couldn't he have approached this from someplace truer to his own position?  

[ Parent ]

Unfortunate (none / 0) (#177)
by cal1942 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:32:59 PM EST
If it does get little attention that will be unfortunate.

[ Parent ]
Has this story been on TV at all? (none / 0) (#132)
by Josey on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:00:13 PM EST


[ Parent ]
Last night Dan Abrams covered it, but took (none / 0) (#139)
by jawbone on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 01:13:55 PM EST
Obama's and the Canadian embassy's answer (DC embassy) as the final word.

Now, CTV, which I gather from other commenters is highly regarded as a good source of information, has stood by its story and given the name of the Obama campaign contact.

That aide says talk to the campaign!

If this story is not picked up by the MCM, it means the MCM has decided to go with Obama at least through the primary (IOW, take out Clinton)--it does not mean it won't turn on Obama in the GE.

The MCM will only side with or take a neutral stance IF the Corporate part of the Mainstream Corporate Media decides they don't want a third Bush term with McBush.

I don't know what KO did as I'm taking a vacation from his Hillary pillorying.

Can't recall what the evening news did!

[ Parent ]

thanks (none / 0) (#161)
by Josey on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 04:05:50 PM EST
The media and their corporate sponsors must surely love Obama's conservative health care plan and "Harry and Louise" ad against Hillary.
And seem to be rewarding him for his centrist position.
Obama has trained Obamabots to believe mandates are awful! - another reason for the media to promote Obama.
 

[ Parent ]
So (none / 0) (#160)
by MichaelGale on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 03:38:29 PM EST
the "change" how things are done in Washington comes when?

[ Parent ]

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