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60 Minutes On Don Siegelman's Alleged Railroading By Rove | 27 comments (27 topical)

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Where's Clinton's BTD? (none / 0) (#12)
by AF on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 08:22:59 PM EST
It occurred to me that there are a number of Obama supporters like BTD (and Kevin Drum) who like Clinton a lot and aren't caught up in Obamania, but are for Obama because they think he's more electable and/or (potentially) more transformative.  In other words, their hearts are with Clinton but their minds are with Obama.

Where are Clinton supporters whose hearts are with Obama? There were plenty of them in December (in fact I was one of them), but now I am hard-pressed to think of any.  Certainly not on this blog.  

Given that the main arguments being made against Obama are his inexperience and vulnerability in the GE -- quintessentially head-based arguments -- shouldn't there be some folks who buy these arguments who don't already prefer Hillary in their gut?

I'm not really a Clinton supporter (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by spit on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:25:05 PM EST
though she got my very tepid vote, but I would love to support Obama. I've honestly been very impressed with his ability to draw out both youth and activists, and think that's something we've needed to happen for a long time. I've got no particular love for either Clinton, and I'd love to, uh, "turn the page" -- I think we genuinely need new blood, from the top on down.

But I flat out can't currently support his unity thing. I think it's fundamentally the wrong approach for the left. I hate that he attacks Clinton's stuff from the right far too often (as with the health care flyer), and I think that a lot of the left is so desperate for a "transformative figure" that they've decided that he is one without being critical enough of his frankly pretty middle-of-the-road policy ideas and the way he expresses them. I fear he has campaigned with vague enough language that people are simply assuming whatever they'd like, and it's not comforting for me when he, say, uses language that makes it sound like school vouchers are worthy of consideration. It's even more discomforting to watch people who, say, despise school vouchers try to parse him into whatever they support.

So I suppose my head is with Clinton, but my heart with Obama, in that sense. I don't really go into electability arguments for the most part, as I think too much depends on context that's hard to predict this far out.

To be clear, I also am not opposed to the left making bargains over electability -- I find the gnashing of teeth now over Jim Webb to be pretty funny, because I knew exactly what we were getting and supported him anyway. I sent McNerney money, too, though I knew he wasn't going to stand up when we needed him to, because getting rid of Pombo was worth it. I am very left, but I'm willing to make some of those compromises when I have to. I have no problem with people who are unwilling to make those compromises -- so called "purists". But I have a real problem with all the folks who delude themselves about these things. One of the things that makes me very uncomfortable about Obama is that IMO he's been built into something he's simply not by a huge number of people on the left. I will feel a lot better if I think they understand that they're compromising, but at the moment they often seem willing to suspend reality to justify their support without that kind of acceptance. That worries me for the future, honestly, when all these people figure out that Obama is no lefty.

[ Parent ]

Obama is no lefty (none / 0) (#18)
by Prabhata on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:10:00 PM EST
One has to look at the constant to figure out the pattern.  Those voters (the constant) who chose Bush because he sold himself as someone who would bring change to the WH, are now voting for Obama.  I can predict the future because Americans repeat the same routine.

[ Parent ]
Say it on dkos (none / 0) (#20)
by spit on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 10:20:38 PM EST
they'll all tell you why he's absolutely right and progressive, even though he apparently wasn't back in 2005.

And it's not just the blogs, unfortunately. I'm basically a socialist, and I know other socialists. I can count on one hand the ones I know that don't buy it, lock stock barrel. Another extremely left friend and I actually had to carefully come out as unimpressed with Obama a few days ago, carefully trying not to stomp each other's feelings. We were both relieved that we both thought he was hell for the left.

If he wins, they're likely going to turn on him later just like they (heh) did Bill Clinton.

[ Parent ]

Hmmm (none / 0) (#23)
by AF on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:46:40 PM EST
I'm not hearing the "heart for Obama" part.  Sounds like you're saying you like him alright but have fundamental disagreements with him that prevent you from voting for him.  That's not really what I was looking for.  

[ Parent ]
Fair enough (none / 0) (#27)
by spit on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 01:22:38 PM EST
Let me rephrase, shorter: my heart is with building the grassroots, bringing in young voters, and building the state level infrastructure the party needs. He's been very impressive on those counts. It pains me, on that front, not to support him because of those fundamental disagreements.

[ Parent ]
Very well put -- I share (none / 0) (#21)
by Cream City on Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:34:54 PM EST
the qualms about his attacks from the right, repeating attacks OF the right in the past on health care . . . and on vouchers, definitely, as I'm in the city that started them and see the devastation done to our public schools. The studies are done, the results are in, and no one ought to be pushing to make this program grow (except the Catholic schools that benefit the most and the scam artists whose storefront schools robbed children of education while robbing taxpayers, too). And ditto re the rest -- and especially the letdown to come for followers; I know young people, new voters, who would be the ones compromised. I hope there is a way to keep them hoping and involved in politics -- that aspect of his campaign has been encouraging to see.

[ Parent ]

60 Minutes On Don Siegelman's Alleged Railroading By Rove | 27 comments (27 topical)

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