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The Move On Ad | 127 comments (127 topical)

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disagreements (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by diogenes on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:05:26 PM EST
Isn't it possible to disagree with someone without ad hominem attacks?  If Obama wins, it will be because people won't think he'd use such tactics and because people can like him even though they disagree with his policies.

Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 10:14:29 PM EST
Far be it from me to disagree with soemone who appears to be agreeing with my post, but there are ad homs and there are ad homs, and the traitor card is beyond the pale.

[ Parent ]
Meanwhile, Kos is engaging in (none / 0) (#16)
by oculus on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 12:32:46 AM EST
cooptation:

KOS ON DODD

[ Parent ]

but.... (none / 0) (#36)
by selise on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 09:37:27 AM EST
the moveon ad did not call the general a traitor.

[ Parent ]
A Betrayer (none / 0) (#37)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 09:40:48 AM EST
Soooo much better.

If you really think this ad was smart and acceptable, then we have little to discuss on the issue.

I doubt a discussion will be fruitful.

At the least, I would hope you could see it was supremely stupid.

[ Parent ]

it depends... (none / 0) (#51)
by selise on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:24:29 AM EST
it depends on the betrayal. what betrayal is he being accused of?

here's an example. if he had betrayed an oath to tell the truth at these hearings, that wouldn't make him a traitor... just a liar.

traitors have betrayed their country, but a betrayal doesn't make one a traitor - except in a very small number of situations (none of which petraeus was accused of).

i think you have accused moveon of doing something they didn't do.

[ Parent ]

Really? (none / 0) (#54)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:30:03 AM EST
I have accused them of two things, calling Petraeus a betrayer. You choose to try and parse a POLITICAL ad for some benign meaning. That is incredibly absurd in my opinion.

Second, I accuse Move On's ad of being incredibly stupid.

Do you deny that?


[ Parent ]

Dealing with the ad (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:42:18 AM EST
BTD, I'm not sure if it was smart to run the ad or not.  I don't think it was stupid, but even if it was, it is done.

I think there is merit is having the Republicans trumpet all over RW radio that Petreaus may not be a reliable objective source of information.  They are always angry with Democrats but now they are making Petraeus' remarks questionable.

I have gone through the threads and still don't understand why you think this is dreadful.

What I think is worse is us publicly dumping on moveon.org.  There has to be a way to finesse this to our advantage.  
Splitting the ranks is not helpful, even if they did go overboard.

Although I have to say I kind of like the sensationalism in this case.  

Nonetheless beating up on moveon.org doesn't serve us either.  I would like to have some good brains reframe this for public consumption.  
I was peeved at Kerry for making them wrong publicly.  That is what Democrats do.  It doesn't help our cause.

My question is what to do next?  The ad is there.  Done deal.


[ Parent ]

I dump on MoveOn (none / 0) (#65)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:58:49 AM EST
when they do something wrong as I do with Dems.

There is too much not criticizing of each other on the Left when we do stupid things.

I am not part of any Left based nonagression pact.

I have written on this often.

[ Parent ]

I get your point (3.00 / 1) (#83)
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 12:19:58 PM EST
However I also like good strategy after a bad move.  I am focused on how to get out of Iraq.  That is why I usually like your focus.

You think that Moveon.org damaged the Democratic activists message.  That may be so.  But my point is that we will make errors.  How do we use them to still propel us towards the objective?

I believe we need to get better at not sinking into the fray when one of our side makes a dumb move.  But maybe there is no recovery.

I ask the question of you because sometimes your creative thinking gets us past the fog.  I think you did that with the defunding the Iraq war.  But there are skirmishes all along the way.  Maybe all we do is bash Moveon but I would like to be more creative, no, actually I was hoping for YOU to be more creative.  You have a bigger voice than I do.

[ Parent ]

This is the smart move (none / 0) (#87)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 12:29:54 PM EST
Denounce the ad.

And keep going as I have done.

[ Parent ]

Could you explain this? (none / 0) (#73)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 11:34:29 AM EST
I think there is merit is having the Republicans trumpet all over RW radio that Petreaus may not be a reliable objective source of information.


[ Parent ]
Sometimes in objecting (none / 0) (#80)
by pioneer111 on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM EST
to something you pass a message along.  Eg.  In being outraged that he is being called a "betrayer" people wonder why that happened.  The secondary message becomes that his information is slanted to please the WH and is unreliable.  

E.g. if you get outraged about the fact that someone is accused of being a thief before trial, you find out that something was stolen and who was likely to have done it.  Or look at the Larry Craig case, even a defense  of possible entrapment, makes the point that his behavior and character is suspect.

The RW media is broadcasting doubt about Petraeus' report.  It is a good thing.  They hate Democrats anyway, but this makes Petraeus not so hot either.

[ Parent ]

you wrote something else... (3.00 / 1) (#57)
by selise on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:46:24 AM EST
i never claimed a benign meaning.

you wrote:

the traitor card is beyond the pale.

my comment was directed at this statement you made. i don't think the traitor card was played because i don't think the accusation of betrayer rises to that level.

please don't read more into my comment than was actually there.

[ Parent ]

As I said (none / 0) (#64)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 11, 2007 at 10:57:39 AM EST
You are parsing.

betrayal-stab in the back- traitor.

This is ridiculous imo of course.

[ Parent ]

The Move On Ad | 127 comments (127 topical)

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