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Jury Rejects Death Penalty for Man Who Killed Seven | 25 comments (25 topical)

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Straw man (1.00 / 2) (#2)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri May 18, 2007 at 07:45:29 AM EST

Dehumanisation and retribution are the two key reasons that the death penalty continues in the US.

This looks to be a straw man.  The key reason is the assurance of eliminating repeat offenses.  That is something that life in the slammer has sadly and tragically not been able to provide.  Ending the death penalty will result in the deaths of more innocents.

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You misinterpret the point. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by HK on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:26:18 AM EST
I was not stating the reason for the existance of the death penalty but the reason for its continuance, that is, public support of it.  If the general public saw death row inmates as human beings and set aside notions of vengence, then support for capital punishment would drop significantly because there are other sentences that can meet the other criteria for punishment.  The media is partly to blame for this, often keen to stir up frenzied outrage; this can be seen most in local press when the victim is from the area.  They naturally find the crime monstrous, but misguidedly assume that makes the perpetrator a monster.

However, even if I were referring to the legal reasons for the death penalty, citing retribution would not be a straw man; retribution is very much a part of the criminal justice system in the US.

Decon gives more information in his comment, which I won't bother rehashing, not least because he probably has a better knowledge than I do on these specific issues.

 

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Let me make clear (none / 0) (#5)
by Deconstructionist on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:00:50 AM EST
that I do not reject retribution as an acceptable goal of a criminal justice system. Government exists  as a means to express the will of the people. A government system that ignores the will of a large segment of the population is non-repsonsive and can expect that the people will then use individual actions to express their will in a less fair, less orderly, less consistent  and more chaotic and violent  fashion.

  If people believe the government does not provide punishment sufficient to exact justice for crimes  it will breed distrspect for the law and vigilantism.

  I accept that retribution is one of the purposes of punishment and that it is a purpose supported by an overwhelmingly huge majority of people everywhere on Earth throughout history. Even if rejected the morality of retribution (which I don't) I would fear the consequences of abandoning it.

  I just think that the death penalty should be abolished because in an imperfect system it cannot be fairly and consistently applied across the population of the guilty and will inevtiably beapplied to the innocent. Even if it is a  small number of innocents (and it is in terms of percentages) that to me outweighs all the arguments in favor of the death penalty-- but not retributive justice in toto.

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Seriously? (none / 0) (#8)
by eric on Fri May 18, 2007 at 12:30:34 PM EST
Do you seriously mean to argue that murderers contemplate their crimes in light of the punishment should they get caught?  Are you saying that there have those that would have killed with the mere threat of life in prison but decided against murder because of capital punishment?

[ Parent ]
Not at all (none / 0) (#9)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri May 18, 2007 at 01:06:28 PM EST

The arguement is that dead murderers commit no more murders.  Murderers sentenced to life do in face commit more murders.  

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I beg to differ (none / 0) (#14)
by Al on Fri May 18, 2007 at 02:28:37 PM EST
The key reason is the assurance of eliminating repeat offenses.

No, it's not. Who do you think you're kidding? The key reason is revenge.

Ending the death penalty will result in the deaths of more innocents.

Have you discounted the innocents on death row? And did you take into account the fact that murder rates are lower where there is no death penalty?

[ Parent ]

Are you projecting? (none / 0) (#15)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri May 18, 2007 at 03:03:46 PM EST

Unlike you, I can't speak for the motivations of others.  How do you know that the key reason of others is revenge?  Or is this just a handy straw man?

As for myself, I feel we should keep the death penalty as it will save more innocent life than would its repeal.

BTW, comparing states whose populations are very different in many ways and claiming the difference in murder rates is related to only the death penalty is fifth grade silliness.  

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If there are factors (none / 0) (#16)
by HK on Fri May 18, 2007 at 03:55:30 PM EST
other than capital punishment which have a much more significant effect on the murder rate in States that retain the death penalty, as you suggest, don't you think that it would be better abolish the death penalty and use the money saved to tackle those factors?  In your own time...

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Again, I beg to differ (none / 0) (#23)
by Al on Fri May 18, 2007 at 06:38:18 PM EST
Are you projecting?

Do you know what projection even means?

How do you know that the key reason of others is revenge?

Because they say so.

BTW, comparing states whose populations are very different in many ways and claiming the difference in murder rates is related to only the death penalty is fifth grade silliness.  

You're bluffing, and not very well at that. Explain  what those differences in populations are, and how they compensate for the steadily increasing gap in murder rates between DP and non-DP states.

[ Parent ]

State to state differences (none / 0) (#25)
by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:21:46 PM EST

Explain  what those differences in populations are, and how they compensate for the steadily increasing gap in murder rates between DP and non-DP states.

Well lets see.  For example between Vermont and Missippi there is considerable difference in median income, average education, life span, average age, poverty rate, and murder rate.  

BTW, what happened to the murder rate in Washington DC in the years since capital punishment ended?  

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Jury Rejects Death Penalty for Man Who Killed Seven | 25 comments (25 topical)

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