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Keith Ellison Reacts to Virgil Goode's Muslim Comments | 75 comments (75 topical)

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Flip (1.00 / 2) (#8)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 07:32:55 PM EST
If the Congressman from MN would renounce CAIR he would certainly have my attention.

As it is I see him as the flip side of Goode.

So (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by scarshapedstar on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 09:50:39 PM EST
When, exactly, did Ellison attack Goode? Since he's the mirror image and all.

[ Parent ]
As I'm sure you'll get some attention when (none / 0) (#9)
by Edger on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 07:41:14 PM EST
you renounce the KKK.

[ Parent ]
Next (none / 0) (#13)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 09:03:54 PM EST
Glad to.

Your turn.

Renounce the ACLU?

[ Parent ]

1) That's a start. (none / 0) (#15)
by Edger on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 09:22:30 PM EST
  1. No. I have no need to. It's not a racist org.

  2. Now. Let's hear you renounce goodes racism.


[ Parent ]
Islam is a religion (none / 0) (#19)
by Wile ECoyote on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 05:07:22 AM EST
not a race.  I've seen european, african, east asian and west asian followers of islam.  

[ Parent ]
Wile, I thought you were too smart (none / 0) (#20)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 06:35:38 AM EST
to walk into that. Sigh.

goode: "if American citizens don't wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran"

"Islam" is a religion. "Moslem" is an alternative spelling of "Muslim", a follower of "Islam".

I think you'll find that most followers of Islam are members of non-white races.

Semantics. Goode expresses racism and bigotry.

It's a major part of who he is, and of anyone who excuses or supports him.

Watch your step.

[ Parent ]

he's not necessarily a racist ... (none / 0) (#36)
by Sailor on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:59:15 AM EST
... just a christofascist.

[ Parent ]
edger - Islam is not a race. (none / 0) (#21)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 08:40:50 AM EST
It is a religion that is highly intolerant of Jews and other non-believers, declares war frequently on people because they don't believe and currently has a large number of radicals that have declared war on the west.

As for why you should renounce the ACLU, Big Tent Democrat made a very strong point in a post a few inches below.

Yes, pragmatism. For what defines a liberal is not the program or policy that is implemented, but rather the result reached. Indeed, it becomes, in some cases, a fatal flaw. Consider the romance with left wing totalitarian regimes like the former Soviet Union prior to 1950 and the continuing romance with Castro's Cuba. We lliberal love our goals - equality, egalitarianism, economic and racial justice and where our goals our mouthed by an ideology, we are more tolerant. We should not be.

I supported the ACLU for years. I think it has now went over the edge in many of its efforts, existing only to exist and in many cases its actions have become counterproductive to the goals all liberals should have.

Yes edger, the road to hell can be paved with good intentions and sometimes groups that helped in the past can hurt in the present.

[ Parent ]

Dude, the ACLU defended Nazis... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by Dadler on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 01:48:18 PM EST
...decades ago.  They are what you constantly harp about being in the abstract, a socially liberal organization that defends whom it defends even when that defense puts them in a very difficult and scrutinized position, putting something tangible on the line in the defense of higher prinicples.

That's what we all aspire to be, able to stand up for what we believe in when doing so actually comes with some risk.  The easy choice is not what the ACLU is about.  For that I'd expect you to have at least a measure of respect.  

[ Parent ]

Lately, I've noticed (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by scarshapedstar on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 03:54:03 PM EST
Jim seems to be dropping the "social liberal" facade.

Shades of Impostor...

(not to mention Tireless Rebutter, Artful Dodger, and Troglodyte...

[ Parent ]

One more... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Dec 25, 2006 at 09:16:38 AM EST
Stone Deaf

[ Parent ]
Troglodyte (none / 0) (#58)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 07:08:57 PM EST
characterizes as "conservative" or "libertarian", but which could be more accurately described as "bigoted narcissism".

lol

[ Parent ]

Race? (none / 0) (#23)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 09:28:51 AM EST
Semantics. Goode expresses racism and bigotry.

Race is a term that is made up by racists who believe that they are genetically better than others who they ascribe a 'race' to.

People who quickly jump to correct the usage of the word are usually also racists. The tip off is that they never follow with: 'didn't you mean bigotry?'  

What 'race' are ppj?  Prove it.

BTW- there are more christianists that want to see people dead than moslems, both today and throught history. There are more christiansts that hate than moslems, yes today ppj, just look in the mirror.  

There must be some joy in the bedwetter fantasy. Seems a bit silly to me but, different strokes...

[ Parent ]

squeaky, I see that you have engaged in (1.00 / 1) (#25)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 09:46:09 AM EST
the old trick of wanting to define words for what you want them to mean, rather than what the dictionary says.

racism - : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

The belief in Islam clearly is not a race.

Now, if you want to call Goode a bigot, have at it.

bigot - :  person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

But, by definition he isn't a racist.

And by calling him one you display your own biases and reduce your argument because of its inaccuracy.

[ Parent ]

hahahahaha (none / 0) (#26)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 09:49:53 AM EST
People who quickly jump to correct the usage of the word are usually also racists. The tip off is that they never follow with: 'didn't you mean bigotry?'  
er...that is until someone calls them on it. Never fails.

hahahahah


[ Parent ]

The question, Jim.... (none / 0) (#27)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 09:52:03 AM EST
Semantic games, Jim.

Afraid of the question, Jim?

[ Parent ]

squeaky (none / 0) (#35)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:52:23 AM EST
Why are you trying to change the meaning of "racism?"

Either you have an agenda or you are intelligent enough to understand the correct usage.

Your choice on the question's answer.

[ Parent ]

OK how about this: (none / 0) (#60)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 23, 2006 at 11:53:13 AM EST
Do you agree with Goode's racist and bigoted remarks on immigration. I think you do. If so:

Are there too many Moslems in this country? If so how many are too many.

[ Parent ]

You're reduced to trolling (none / 0) (#24)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 09:29:04 AM EST
and attempting to hijack the thread.

Do you support or do you denounce Goode's racism and bigotry?

I already know the answer, btw - I just want to see you avoid the question one more time. Just so we're completely clear on this, you know.

Stand up for yourself Jim. If you can.

[ Parent ]

The post is about comments made (1.00 / 1) (#29)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:16:29 AM EST
by Ellison and Goode.

My position and comments directly relate to those made by the subjects. Your problem is that you don't agree and any comment you disagree with must be off subject. You have a further problem because I have noted that the claims of racism have beeen thoroughly and accurately proven wrong.

I find you, and many others on the Left, as intolerant as you claim Goode to be.

I have provided links showing why I find Ellison's positions and relationships as troublesome as you find Goode's comments.

As I noted, I find both on the same coin, but different sides.

My position on immigration has not changed. The borders should be shut down and all immigration stopped until we have enough time to assimilate those who are legaly here now. During that time we can rationalize who should, or should not, be let in.

edger, you never say it, but I think you believe in open borders. This would suggest that you have no particular belief in country, culture or laws, although you strongly support the Bill of Rights... without, I might add, any mention of responsibilities. Nor do you ever mention the problems, being displayed in Europe, of unrestrained immigration and the resulting lack of  assimilation, moslem ghettos and the resulting demands for self rule and Shari law instead of secular. These demands are in fact, a revolution. France has burned and will burn more.

I would call neither men racists, or bigots. I think both are suspicious of the other, perhaps rightly so.


[ Parent ]

The QUESTION, Jim. (none / 0) (#31)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:27:39 AM EST
I already know the answer, btw - I just want to see you avoid the question one more time. Just so we're completely clear on this, you know.

You just answered it with your non-answer. You just can't resist that impulse to avoid the mirror can you?

Don't fall...

[ Parent ]

edger - You never can understand a simple answer (none / 0) (#33)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:43:01 AM EST
that you dislike.

[ Parent ]
I understand completely, Jim. (none / 0) (#34)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:45:10 AM EST
You just can't bring yourself to denounce racism. Or bigotry.

Can you?

[ Parent ]

Your question is insulting. (none / 0) (#37)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 11:02:03 AM EST
Show me where I have stated I support racism.

I, as you know, have made many statements in support of minority rights, etc.

As usual, unable to refute the comment and the links to support it, you go off subject and launch a personal attack.

You define yourself again.

Ta! Ta!

[ Parent ]

Run away again (none / 0) (#38)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 11:04:58 AM EST
Nothing new here.

[ Parent ]
Yes I'm sure your mirror is insulting too (none / 0) (#62)
by Edger on Sun Dec 24, 2006 at 07:22:39 AM EST
I, as you know, have made many statements in support of minority rights, etc.
Posted by JimakaPPJ
February 11, 2006 09:16 PM

et al - To keep my reputation up, I offer you, Muslim Opinion Be Damned"



[ Parent ]
He is not alone (none / 0) (#51)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 02:02:32 PM EST
The rest of his republican friends are buttoned lipped too.

As of now, Goode still isn't shy about his anti-Muslim attitudes, and the rest of the GOP still doesn't want to talk about it.

Since news of anti-Muslim comments by Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) surfaced a few days ago, a number of public figures and groups have cried foul. But so far, we haven't spotted a single Republican making a comment on the topic.

Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) offered some vaguely supportive comments towards Rep.-elect Keith Ellison (D-Minn.),but we're still waiting for the first Republican to denounce Goode directly. I have a hunch we'll be waiting for a long while.

crooks and liars

[ Parent ]

Yes (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 02:14:43 PM EST
It's a variation on the old theme, isn't it?

Lying isn't lying because what we do we don't define as lying.

Terror isn't terror because what we do we don't define as terror.

Wars of aggression aren't wars of aggression because what we do we don't define as wars of aggression.

Torture isn't torture because what we do we don't define as torture.

Racism isn't racism because what we do we don't define as racism.

Bigotry isn't bigotry because what we do we don't define as bigotry.

Denial isn't denial because what we do we don't define as denial.

That about sum it up there Jimbo?

[ Parent ]

Dear Leader (none / 0) (#61)
by squeaky on Sat Dec 23, 2006 at 01:39:41 PM EST
edger - Islam is not a race.
Better tell our dear leader. He is soooooo generous when he talks about those poor people whose skins are not necessarily....
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than white can self-govern.

digby

[ Parent ]

Why on earth (none / 0) (#16)
by scarshapedstar on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 09:49:19 PM EST
Would a social liberal be against the ACLU? Seriously.

[ Parent ]
Why? (none / 0) (#11)
by Kitt on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 08:33:04 PM EST
Why does he need to renouce CAIR? Shall we put restrictions on all members of Congress. Did Strom Thurmond renounce the Klan?

Nor is he the flip side of Goode.

[ Parent ]

Hurt (none / 0) (#14)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 09:05:01 PM EST
He should renounce CAIR because support of it will hurt Moslems.

[ Parent ]
Pfffttt! (n/t) (none / 0) (#18)
by Kitt on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 02:10:56 AM EST


[ Parent ]
How drool..... Pfffft??? (1.00 / 1) (#22)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 08:56:18 AM EST
Kitt, that's so funny. Someone makes a point and you  spit/hiss at them??? Lord, lord. How the debate level continues to fall.

Mr. Ellison's campaign obviously has downplayed the affiliation with Mr. Awad. But here are the facts: Mr. Awad headlined a fundraiser last month that the campaign estimates netted $15,000 to $20,000, and in July, and it appears that CAIR's co-founder bundled contributions totaling just over $10,000. (The campaign issued a terse denial on the latter point, though it refused to explain away overwhelming evidence to the contrary.)

Dick Durbin of Illinois, the Senate's second-leading Democrat, has said that CAIR "is unusual in its extreme rhetoric and its association with groups that are suspect." Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, who chairs the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, has stated flatly that CAIR "has ties to terrorism." Mr. Schumer has special disdain for Mr. Awad and CAIR's other co-founder, Omar Ahmad, saying in a 2003 hearing that both men have "intimate connections with Hamas."

Addressing a youth session at the 1999 Islamic Association of Palestine convention in Chicago, Mr. Ahmad glorified suicide bombers who "kill themselves for Islam": "Fighting for freedom, fighting for Islam, that is not suicide. They kill themselves for Islam." (Transcript provided by the Investigative Project.)

Link

[ Parent ]

What's worse? (none / 0) (#50)
by Dadler on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 01:59:19 PM EST
Supporting suicide bombers and their extremist acts of destruction and murder; or supporting the sending of kids to war for George W. Bush, where you might very well be blown up, too, and where you will likely blow up or otherwise kill and maim others?

To me, that's at best a push.

[ Parent ]

Pfffttt! is neither a spit nor a hiss. (none / 0) (#28)
by Kitt on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:15:22 AM EST
It's an injection along the lines of 'yeah, right' - it's more of a sound.

It's to suggest that your argument that Mr. Ellison "prove" he's a real American is not valid (versus the usual, just plain stupid). As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Gates, Mr. Wolfewitz, Mr. Perle...et.al...then, on to Mr. Newt, Mr. Goode, and perhaps, even, YOU should prove you're "real americans" because I have definitely not seen any proof of that over the past six years.

And please, don't talk about my arguments lowering the level of the debate when that appears to be your sole intent for being here at Talk Left.

[ Parent ]

Okay.... hiss boo evaluates the debate? (none / 0) (#30)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:25:53 AM EST
Really?? I never knew.

And please show me where I ask Ellison to prove he is a "real American." I do not and have not and it is demostrative of your dishonesty when you make such a claim.

I do ask him to explain his relationship with CAIR and to move completely away from them for the reasons shown/linked to.

I specifically refer you to the comments of Dem Senator Schummer. A person I think you will have a hard time calling a "right wing bigot."

[ Parent ]

I'm not playing this game (none / 0) (#32)
by Kitt on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 10:37:45 AM EST
You don't want to have a dialogue, Jim. You want to get in your little jabs to prove something. I don't know what nor do I care. I'm not playing.

You want to play with semantics - which would be fine if we discussing a word. We're not.

We're discussing the bigoted comments of one representative in Congress aimed towards (however freakin' obliquely) a new, incoming  representative of Congress based solely upon his religion.

[ Parent ]

No Kitt (none / 0) (#39)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 11:08:28 AM EST
No Kitt, the post is about comments made by both men.

You want to admire Ellison. I want to question him.

If you want to accept everything he says, fine.

[ Parent ]

Both men (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 11:55:00 AM EST
OK ppj, let's stick to the comments by both men that appear in this thread. One of the two comments shows extreme prejudice and goes contrary to american values, not the new ones you espouse, but the old ones that were written into the constitution. Goode wants america to be a christian country and is very afraid of other religions.

Elison's comment is ironically more christianist than Goode's fearmongering, racebaiting and bigotry.  Elison is inviting, unafraid and open, very american, or old american as you like to have it.  

What should we call the 'new' american position, that you stand for, with calls for closing the borders, constant questions about ones patriotism, and allegiance to america? Yes we know how much you loved McCarthism.

neo-nazi fits the bill. any other thoughts ppj?

[ Parent ]

What? You the judge?? (none / 0) (#42)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:26:30 PM EST
This isn't court, so we can look at what both have said.

Ellison's relationship with CAIR is troubling.

[ Parent ]

yes (5.00 / 1) (#47)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:42:22 PM EST
neo-nazi is just about right.

[ Parent ]
No - the blog post is about Mr. Ellison's (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by Kitt on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:41:14 PM EST
response to a bigot. Your posts may encompass your opinion about both men's comments. I just find your remarks too much of a distraction because more often than not, that's exactly what they are to be - a distraction.

Mr. Goode attacked Mr. Ellison. Mr. Ellison has NOT reciprocated.

I find Mr. Goode's remarks far more troubling than Mr. Ellison's, and frankly & undoubtedly antithemtical to Christ's teachings as well as being quite unAmerican.

[ Parent ]

And Goode, Jim? (none / 0) (#40)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 11:17:34 AM EST


[ Parent ]
Have at it (none / 0) (#43)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:29:16 PM EST
And Goode what? His position is pretty clear. I think we both understand it. But if you want to question him, have at it

[ Parent ]
Heh. (none / 0) (#45)
by Edger on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:36:22 PM EST
You're like a mouse stuck to a glueboard, Jim.

You don't have to play dumb.

And Goode what? His position is pretty clear.

Your position Jim. You support his racism and bigotry by default, through not denouncing it.

You just can't bring yourself to denounce racism. Or bigotry.

Can you?

Don't fall....

[ Parent ]

If you can read you will find (none / 0) (#44)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 12:34:01 PM EST
the following quotation in this thread by me.

I have provided links showing why I find Ellison's positions and relationships as troublesome as you find Goode's comments.

As I noted, I find both on the same coin, but different sides.

Can you figure that out??

[ Parent ]

Strawman alert! (none / 0) (#12)
by Sailor on Thu Dec 21, 2006 at 08:55:31 PM EST
c'mon folks, you know this trick!

[ Parent ]
Moslem Phobia (none / 0) (#59)
by squeaky on Fri Dec 22, 2006 at 07:38:53 PM EST
What do you think ppj, are there too many people muslims in the US already? If not how many are too much?

[ Parent ]

Keith Ellison Reacts to Virgil Goode's Muslim Comments | 75 comments (75 topical)

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